Welcome to the Drug and Alcohol Rehabilitation Forum/ Introductions

[danielle]

My name is Monica "danielle" and I am an addict. I am married to an addict as well, though fortunately we are both in recovery.

The number of lives touched by addictions are countless. Perhaps you are an addict, the parent or spouse or loved one of an addict, or you just have an interest in addiction and rehabilitation.

I have been affiliated with twelve step programs for many years, though I've relapsed in the past. But, just for today, I am straight, clean, sober, or whatever you want to call it.

Having said that - I don't believe the 12 steps have a patent on recovery - they are, however, what's worked for me. So, other experiences, programs, and ideas are welcome.

My husband is in prison, not for drugs directly, but for stealing to support OUR habits. I believed drugs were expensive - I just never knew they would cost us so much. Hindsight is 20/20, isn't it?

As a result of OUR addictions, we both have Hepatitis C now. It's the consequences of our behavior and we'll carry this with us for the rest of our lives.

Welcome to this forum - the door is open, the coffee is on, and hugs are plenty.

[danielle]

Please feel free to post your introductions as well.

[Trulykath]

Hey guys...it's kath...

you all know by now, Skip is in Texas (TDCJ) on felony DWI charges. We were lucky...his last offense was 10 years ago, and we hit the DA up on a good day, shot for minimum and they took it.

Only one problem...Skip is still back and forth about "I didn't really do anything wrong..." or "they just want all DWI offenders to stay here longer to justify their jobs".....thing is....HE HAS A PROBLEM.....

He doesn't drink every morning, lunch or all day....Skip is a binge drinker. When he starts, he doesn't know when to stop...and MANY drinks later, he's invincible and THINKS he can drive. Felony DWI in Texas is after the 3rd arrest....this is Skip's 2nd Felony DWI charge.

I struggle with so many things....and my eyes are wide open...he starts AA this weekend inside...and he tells me his drinking days are over....As with any addiction, I know it will be one day at a time....there are many things I disagree with on the 12 steps, but some of the foundation principles are good. I still say alcoholism is a crutch, and I'm hard-pressed to be won over to thinking there is some gene in some people that make them NEED TO DRINK. I think most addictions are based on a deep, internal driving force, and the addict has to tap into WHY they do what they do.

I know I cannot make his decisions for him....and the only REAL person who can get Skip better IS SKIP. He has to want to do this....he's a TRULY wonderful man....you guys would love him...he's caring...genuine...an out-N-out cowboy and a gentleman in EVERY sense of the word.....I struggle with his low self-esteem or whatever it is that makes him feel like he must crawl in that bottle.

One more arrest for this offense means 25 to life, and I just cannot fathom that. I KNOW they must make their own decisions, but strong, loving support can help them see that there are options other than the paths they've chosen in the past.

It's a daily struggle....I want him home...I want him well...I think God had him arrested to save his life....but above all else....I BELIEVE IN HIM....

thanks for starting this forum...and thanks for listening!

kath

[lulu]

Tha is all you can do Kath, believe in him and keep the faith,
Dealing with someone with a drinking problem is not easy.

I wish you both the best.

[toi_ama]

Hi Kath. I've been sober for over 18 years and my sobriety is due in great part to AA. It used to be very unclear whether it was genetic, but in recent years it's been medically proven that it truly is genetic. Further, it truly is a disease with clinically clear physical symptoms to diagnose by. It's not a moral issue or a matter of not having will power--------alcoholics are people with very strong will power, as a rule. I jokingly say that it wasn't will power I didn't have, it was "won't power". Addiction is a baffling and ferocious beast. The 12 step program of AA is the only treatment for alcoholism that has a proven track record, and in fact, in Oregon and many other states, in order to get licensed as a treatment center, they HAVE to include AA meetings in their care plans. Alcoholics are a very intelligent group of people and they can hoodwink the most skillful of therapists, so counselling and therapy aren't effective like AA is. Even at best though, only about 5% of alcoholics who enter recovery make 5 years continuously sober and the percentage drops from there in terms of length of sobriety. I know many things about this disease, but I honestly don't know why I made it and others don't--------why some do and some just can't seem to. I lost my husband to addiction three years ago. Denial is a powerful thing and the only thing that will jolt someone out of it is the extreme pain of the consequences of continued addiction------many never reach that state, I guess, that's just the lowest they can go. And there are some who even admit they're alcoholic and continue anyway, like one of my sisters. Good luck. You have to do what you have to do to take care of you and only your loved one can do anything about recovery. If he doesn't think he needs it, he won't seek it, and it's an elevator going to hell. You can get off any point you want and so can he, but he's probably going to go lower than you'd want to go. I hope not for both your sakes.

[Flowerchild]

Kath, this is how I understand it: alcohol is metabolized differently by different people, & I think that's where the genetic predisposition comes in. People who are likely to become alcoholics have a high tolerance for it; that is, they can drink a lot more than normal people & they like the feeling of intoxication, whereas a person with normal chemistry is more likely to dislike the feeling of being out of control or becomes physically ill. There are also changes in the receptors in the brain that comes from drinking alcohol & it's these changes that cause the addiction to it, so sometimes people who aren't really genetically susceptible to alcoholism simply drink themselves into it. Bottom line, alcohol is a drug & alcoholics are addicted to it & can never drink normally because one drink triggers the craving for it due to the changes that have happened in the brain. It's easier to grasp the concept when you understand that all of our thought processes are chemical; that's how the brain functions & different chemicals that are ingested create different brain chemistry.

I may not be saying this as clearly as it needs to be said;I hope someone who is better informed will come along & do a better job than I have because I think it will really help you to understand what is going on in his body. That's not all there is to it, by any means & that's where the 12 steps can help because they (in part) help to clear the alcoholic's conscience somewhat & lead the way to a different way of thinking & better way of life. I would be interested in which of them you find fault with & why if you feel like discussing that.

I think you are looking for some deep psychological reason for Skip's drinking, but I really doubt there is one other than guilt for all the crappy things alcoholics almost always do because they're out of their minds so much of the time, but remember, the drinking preceeded those things occurring.

And by the way, if I don't take a drink in the next 10 days, it will have been 25 years since my last one. So…it can be done.

I'm holding you & Skip in my thoughts & prayers, Kath.

Adrienne

[danielle]

For me, to get my act together, pain was the ONLY motivator that worked. I don't mean physical pain - I mean the pain of hitting rock bottom. I'd been through jails (yes, plural), rehabs (that one's a plural too) but it took losing the one person I loved the most in the world to prison to force me to acknowledge the problem. And the problem? Well, that would be me.

When I am strung out, I am 10 feet tall and bullet proof too. I am smarter, meaner, and a complete @$$. I also have this nasty habit of blaming anybody that's breathing and lying, conning, and manipulating. I'm a typical addict.

Why am I an addict? I don't have a clue. Maybe it's genetic - but there's nobody else in my immediate family that's addicted. My parents are those kind of people that can have major surgery and be prescribed a bottle of pain pills, and ONLY take a pill if they need one. A year after the surgery, most of the pills will still be sitting in their medicine cabinet. They amaze me! I'm being serious - it baffles me that the pills don't talk to them. But, it doesn't really matter why - what matters is the "How."

What I'd suggest? Just as PTO is wonderful for finding understanding in dealing with prisons, Al-Anon is wonderful in dealing with an alcoholic. Find a group, attend some meetings and get involved. So that when Skip does come home, YOU have taken care of yourself. Believe me when I tell you, YOU ARE NOT ALONE! You may hear things you don't want to hear - and I've left many, many meetings pi$$ed, swearing I'll never, ever go back - but I always heard what I needed to hear.

(((HUGS))) and best wishes to you and Skip.

[danielle]

toi_ama - 18 years sober
and
Flowerchild - almost 25 years sober!

Wow! That's 43 years of recovery!!!!! Obviously something's working!

((HUGS)) to both of you!

[Trulykath]

Adrienne....YEAH!!! I'm so proud of you....and sure, I would love to talk about AA....

For those who don't know...here are the 12 steps...


THE TWELVE STEPS OF AA


Step 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.

Step 2: We came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Step 3: We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God, as we understand him.

Step 4: We made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

Step 5: We admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

Step 6: We were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

Step 7: We humbly asked Him to remove these shortcomings.

Step 8: We made a list of all the persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

Step 9: We made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Step 10: We continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

Step 11: We sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understand him, praying only for knowledge of his will and the power to carry that out.

Step 12: Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.


"The only requirement for membership in AA is the desire to stop drinking."
- Alcoholics Anonymous, by Bill Wilson, et. al.


I found this reponse to the 12 steps on the internet, and while I don't fully agree with EVERYTHING he says, he makes some valid points....I DON"T DISAGREE with AA...but I've seen many go into a program...and it's one bad thing replacing another bad thing....does that make sense??? I know this post is somewhat harsh...KEEP IN MIND..I DID NOT WRITE THIS......

***********************************************
The Twelve-Step Program is not about addiction recovery; it is about Alcoholics Anonymous, a religious denomination that binds its membership together with fear of self-destruction, surrender of autonomy, unwholesome introspection, prescribed meditations, and the promise of divine intervention. When freely chosen, religious solutions may benefit individuals and society; when forced, they cannot quell the animal desire for self-intoxication. Indeed, forced participation in religion kills the human spirit as surely as addiction itself.

Only A Desire to stop....
The steps above contain no suggestion that one summarily quit drinking/using, or of how one might achieve that goal. The AA fellowship expects that members only desire to stop, and certainly not to consummate recovery through a personal commitment to abstinence. It is presumed that, due to an inherent, congenital defect, AA members, i.e., "alcoholics," are constitutionally incapable of accepting moral responsibility for lifetime abstinence. They believe that such ideas are unrealistic, doomed to failure, and are cardinal symptoms of their common affliction. No member may claim to know if or when they will drink or use drugs in the future, for such knowledge would connote responsibility, and negate the purpose of the program. Recovery is not regarded as an immediate, individual responsibility, but as a long-term, group project requiring intense support from others who only desire so stop, but not quit, drinking.

We all stop at stop signs, only to start up again. Quitting for life is much different from desiring to merely stop, one-day-at-a-time. Quitting is harder, even gut-wrenching, but sets the stage from freedom based on human competency and individual responsibility.

Mission Impossible
It is impossible for addicted people to fashion a recovery program for others before resolving that problem themselves. Alcoholics Anonymous was founded by two tentatively sober drunks, Bill Wilson and Bob Smith, who gave up on themselves after repeated failures to abstain or drink moderately. Ignorant of the nature of addiction, and unaware of their own Addictive Voices, each hoped to find in the other what they could not find in themselves, the ability to stay sober without really quitting. So, each of them placed the responsibility upon the other. Unwilling to make the painful decision to unconditionally quit drinking, they created an ersatz religion which excluded and absolved moral accountability for drunkenness, describing that behavior as involuntary. The program's preoccupation with moral and character defects also dignifies drunkenness as a disease. They predictably interpreted their past failures to honor their word as evidence that it is humanly impossible for certain people, like them, to do so. Accordingly, they came up with the 12-step program, which makes no mention of quitting, but procrastinates that painful decision daily and forever. They discovered that other substance abusers are highly attracted to any arrangement that shifts the responsibility for abstinence to other entities. While they claimed the only condition for membership is the desire to quit, it is fear of the bodily desire for intoxicated pleasure, the Beast, that bonds the fellowship together. Before the Beast, AA says, humans are powerless. Thus, AA is the embodiment of the collective Beast, defending itself against moral injunction, and the 12-steps are its human voice.

Inversion of truth
Wilson's and Smith's initial inversion of truth, their artful evasion of moral responsibility for drunkenness and abstinence, required suspension of critical judgment not only by AA members, by a society that is justifiably intolerant of preposterous drunken behavior. To accommodate AA's initial inversion of truth, other "adjacent truths" have progressively been inverted, aided by the professional community, with the result that a radical, new philosophy of dependency and victimhood is overtaking traditional American values of independence, self-restraint, self-reliance, and human resilience.

As the recovery group movement marches forward using the apparatus and force of government, social decline is apparent. Step 12, above, has launched an army of altruists upon our social institutions, 12-step believers who have convinced a desperate, trusting society that their God-given creed will deliver us from an epidemic of addictive disease. They sow the seeds of mass addiction contained in the disease-treatment concept, and present their program as the only thing that works. No longer an association of helpful volunteers, AA has become a humble program of coercion, using our social institutions to force its faith on the public at large. Its faith, however, is founded on the belief that human beings are powerless over the bodily desire for pleasure, which describes beasts of the field and not human beings. Indeed, such a philosophy is corrosive to the cornerstones of human civilization -- self-restraint and individual (read: moral) responsibility.

As a means to combat substance addiction, AA stands clearly as a colossal, astronomically expensive, failure. As a government sponsored social program (about half of the members are mandated!), AA is a danger to America. History has shown that when the animal side of human nature is at the helm, chaos is inevitable.

Let us believe in people, and not programs!
************************************************

If Skip is put into AA as a term of parole, it will be the state "forcing" him. I want Skip to enter a program, because it's his desire...does that make sense? I can only hope this IS his rock bottom. I do know...no one in his past has ever really cared, and now he has someone who does. He wants us to get married when he comes home, and he even offered to adopt my kids....He has a lot of things in his life he never had before, and I believe he is seeing....life is too short, there are things he needs to accomplish, and he needs to be sober to do so.

does that make sense?
kath

[danielle]

If Skip is put into AA as a term of parole, it will be the state "forcing" him. I want Skip to enter a program, because it's his desire...does that make sense?

Yes that makes sense. When I was first introduced to recovery, I was a sheet-signer. I had to get those annoying sheets of paper signed at every meeting I attended. I can say honestly, though, had it not been for that then I would have never stuck around on my own.

Those sheets were my ticket to staying out of jail and honestly that's all I cared about. I didn't want to go back and I had enough sense to "follow the rules" (go to the meetings) and EVENTUALLY it rubbed off. I saw people worse off than I had ever been and they were clean and sober, had great jobs, and most of all they were HAPPY! I wanted what they had and they suggested that I keep coming back. So, as a former sheet signer, a former one being "forced" to go there's nothing I regret about it.

Just look at it this way - for that hour he's sitting in a meeting, he's not drinking. For that hour he's surrounded by winners, other alcoholics who aren't drinking, and even if it's required that he go, just maybe he'll hear or see something that'll save his life.

Bring the body and the mind will follow...

[Flowerchild]

Well, I have to admit, that essay kinda went over my head, I mean, some of the things he said just didn't make a bit of sense to me & I think I'm reasonably intelligent. Still…this is what I know about AA. It was started by two men who were considered to be hopeless drunks. If I remember correctly, they got involved in a group called the Oxford Movement, a group of people who had found healing for many diseases, including cancer & alcoholism, through spiritual awakening & these two men, by following the tenets of that movement, against all odds, became sober. The 12 steps of AA come directly from those tenets, with some modifications. And one of the most important tenets was that in order to continue one's healing, it had to be passed on to others. Now I wasn't around in the 30's, but from what I've read, alcoholism was just about 100% fatal in those days & when these two men became sober it was a big deal & others were desperate to try it. The alcoholic part of the Oxford Group in the US began to swell in numbers & in time it broke away & became an autonomous group, partly because the alcoholics felt that the Oxford Group was too religious, which usually doesn't sit well w/drunks. They named themselves Alcoholics Anonymous & they grew. In time untold thousands of people found their way to sobriety in AA, myself included.

The writer said that AA "binds its membership together with fear of self-destruction, surrender of autonomy, unwholesome introspection, prescribed meditations, and the promise of divine intervention." Well, I had a fear of self-destruction when I joined AA; in fact, that is exactly why I went to my first meeting; I knew I was destroying my life. Fear of autonomy? I'd already tried to do it myself & it was obvious that I couldn't. I promise, it wasn't because I wanted to fail. Unwholesome introspection? Well, I think it's a good thing to fear unwholesome introspection — isn't that another way of saying self-centeredness? Prescribed medications? Well, I know what the writer means there: pain pills. Yep, really bad for alkies. Promise of divine intervention? Ok, got me there. I can honestly tell you that I believe my sobriety is a gift from my higher power, many call it the grace of God. But I was a atheist at the start. I'd rather be a thriving sober individual w/a deep belief in a higher power than a dead atheist any day. And to be honest with you, I know people who've stayed sober just believing in the group as their higher power, & that's ok with me.

I'm not going to take this on point-by-point because it's getting late in the day & I don't have the energy for it. But I do want to say a couple of things. First of all, this person wants to argue with the concept of "one day at a time". Well, that's the only way we can live this life & that's really pretty elementary. If I don't drink today, then the next, & the next, well, by George, one of these days my life will end & I will have had all of these sober days, for which those who survive me will be very grateful. And "Wilson & Smith" didn't artfully evade moral responsibility — they just wanted to be sober & help other people who were suffering by offering them something, finally something, that worked.

Kath, I really thought this essay was mean-spirited & a little hysterical myself. Maybe this is a person who has had AA shoved down his/her throat & deeply resented it. I've never been crazy about the courts mandating AA to people who got in trouble with the law because of alcohol abuse. I'm sure they do it because they don't know what else to do. As for myself, I always found that people who were in meetings when they didn't want to be were hostile & disruptive & a detriment to the group, but then after I heard a couple of dozen people say that they had their first exposure to AA that way and found their way back after they finally hit their bottom, I stopped minding it so much.

I don't think AA is perfect because people aren't perfect. I honestly don't think that the Lord's Prayer should be said (recited) in meetings because not all alcoholics are Christian; it's a tradition, a hold over from the 30s & I think it's being dropped in some places. AA is not a religious denomination.

Personally I think it's Skip's best hope & that's because I don't know of anything else that's ever worked.

I'm sure that others will have more to say about this; I hope you're keeping an open mind! We do mean well.

Adrienne

[Shan & Kev]

I have been to AA/NA meetings and have seen what they work towards with the members.
With my man, the meetings work. I go with him or he goes alone. The fellowship is what works for him, I believe.
I have seen him so low and desperate looking, and then jump up suddenly and say" I am going to find a meeting...you coming or not?" After the meeting, he has a look of peace or strength to him that he didn't have before we went. Talking and listening to others who are the same or far worse in their addictions is what helps my guy.He now chairs the NA meetings in the jail and attends AA every week as well.
I don't believe 12 Step programs would work for every person, but then the way I look at it, chemo doesn't work for every person either, or methadone for the hard core heroin or morphine addict. Maybe he will find what he is needing in AA, Kath, and maybe he won't. But at least he is going to see what it is all about.
I wish you both the best of luck with this struggle.

Shan

[Shan & Kev]

AA and NA work if you truly want them to. I have seen it many times. My man goes faithfully to the meetings and he now chairs the NA meetings at the pen. The fellowship is the gold in those organisations. Think how much PTO helps, just being able to vent, listen, see how others in your same situation are dealing with issues. That is the ticket to 12 step programs as far as I am concerned. To sit with a fellow addict and hear his/her story, understand that you are not the only one struggling with that monkey.
I wish everyone who has to deal with an addicted husband/wife/mother/child strength and love on their journeys.

S

[SkullKeeper42]

Kath,,
I know where you are coming from with the Texas laws on DWI'S. I was a guard there when it was T.D.C.in 84-89.
I also got 2 DWI'S, 1 in 89 the other in 90. that is when i learned that i had a problem with drinking and went to AA
on and off for years.i just moved back to Mi from lousiana, and after being sober for a bit then i went on a binge that lasted a month. I ended up in the hospital with Pancreantites all because i thought i could control my problem. I got nobody to blame for my drinking but me, and i accept that.
I hope your man will see that Texas dont give a damm about people who drink socialy let alone the ones that are like me and think i can.as of today i am sober 2 weeks 1 day,
i know its nothing to bragg about but when the Dr told me thaf drink again that i will die!! Not only did i have Pancreantites, but i had tumers on it also from my drinking.
so i had a choice get soberor die at 42, and thats to young for me.
I wish you and him the best of luck,,stand by him and let him know that you care about him and his well being. with your support and his will to stop i think he can do it,, as for me i got no choice but hell i had fun while it lasted(if i want to call it fun) take care,and God bless
The SkullKeeper

[toi_ama]

That article sounds to me like someone on what we call a "dry drunk". AA is a spiritual program, not a religious one, and nothing is mandated------it's a "suggested" program of recovery because alcoholics don't react very well to being told what to do. The way it works is that one alcoholic can share with another from having been there--------just like one person who has been in prison can share with another who has been in prison------in a way that nobody else can. But the AA program won't work if it's mandated----it will only work if the person becomes willing to take suggestions and willing to learn. I can honestly say that I didn't want to quit drinking. I hoped they'd tell me some pill I could take instead if I had to quit. But I had been living in hell and if I had to totally quit everything, I was willing to give it a try because the other alcoholics I met there who were sober told me what they had done and that it worked. But I wouldn't have been able to admit I was alcoholic if I hadn't listened to their stories and I couldn't have stayed sober each day without their loving moral support. And it was tough love, because you can't con a con and you can't slip anything past another alcoholic like you can a therapist or someone who hasn't been there.

Hugs for all you other recovering alcoholics here! And Skullkeeper----welcome! Newly sober people are very important to me and I'm glad you shared. I'll keep you in my prayers.