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  #101  
Old 09-13-2017, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by missingdee View Post
I think Safran was speaking as a former inmate from the perspective of a female inmate. It's not a point of ignorance. It's a point of "this is the perspective that most of the women who are biologically and physically women have regarding this issue."
I know that safran was in prison and was referring to how women feel. I'm not trying to say that they shouldn't or can't feel that way, just that if they were more informed maybe that wouldn't be the case. Society has also changed and will continue to change. Prisons must do the same.

We are still speaking of perspective as opposed to fact and real threat of violence.

I understand and am not negating how female inmates feel but I also don't think that their feelings should be put above anyone else's feelings and/or safety. From what I understand and read there IS a real threat to a transgender females in prison with males.

If there is some research or something based on facts that says there is a real threat to females by other females just because they happen to have a penis I am 100% willing and eager to hear it and read about it. I don't think that is the case though and even the original article posted here states that there is nothing to show that there is a threat to the other female inmates by transgender females.
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  #102  
Old 09-13-2017, 03:15 PM
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Missing got it exactly right - I am a female and I did 10 years in various jails and prisons.

And I maintain if somebody has a penis he will be viewed as a male in a female prison and he could easily be viewed as a threat. I would view him as a threat and I have never suffered from rape or abuse.

Unless you are a female and did time as a female in a female prison you can't even begin to grasp how many female inmates have experienced sexual abuse.

I think in this case a penis is a pretty clear indication that the book & cover can function as a male regardless of what the person feels like inside.

I am once again going to take advantage of the ignore feature that the sage folks here at PTO have provided.
I wish you hadn't used the ignore feature. I'm not sure if I offended you, or you just don't like differing viewpoints, but in case you do see this, I believe you can offer some insight.

Are there not female inmates that have been sexually abused by females?

You're right, I will never understand being sexually abused, whether I Have spent time in prison or not. I do not understand how a person having a certain anatomy is an automatic threat.

I also don't understand why one group of people's feelings/thoughts/fears are considered, but not the others?

I am not ignoring the fear from other inmates, but it is in most cases, unfounded. Whereas, the fear in transgender it is founded. Am I wrong in that thinking?

I understand that the transgender community in prison is a much smaller # and %, but should they be discounted because of that?

I also wanted to add. Does the same go for transgender males? They should be housed with females?

I'm honestly curious about all of this.

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  #103  
Old 09-13-2017, 10:02 PM
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I also wanted to add. Does the same go for transgender males? They should be housed with females?

I'm honestly curious about all of this.
They are not clamoring for it because they KNOW they are female and are at risk of being subjected to male violence. Females KNOW the risk of rape is REAL.

And yes, I had a FTT client that could actually have gone to TDCJ and been housed in a male facility (they had gone through top surgery and had long ago had the legal fiction of a judge signing the order to change documents). They declined specifically because of males. They have also since desisted the testosterone treatment that TDCJ had continued.
  #104  
Old 09-13-2017, 11:16 PM
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gta5518, I know you're relatively new to PTO, so first off welcome. In your profile you write that you have a friend in prison. I hope PTO can be a good source of information and support for you.

I wish there was a way that you could go to visitation with me this weekend. It's the only time I'm able to have off the record discussions with my loved one and it's when I learn about what her life inside is like. She is not my only data point, but everything she says I know I can trust.
  #105  
Old 09-13-2017, 11:33 PM
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To respond to something gta brought up earlier for a moment, if I may....

The reason I'm appearing a lot less rational or well-thought-out on this topic specifically is because it deals with an inmate issue where I have gotten a lot of feedback from female inmates.

Out here in the free world I have no issues with transgender. Use the bathroom you're most comfortable with. Identify as you want. Live your life free. If you are a good person and you come from a place of love, then I will respond in kind. If you are the extreme example of a male who commits sexual assault against women and uses a female identity to try to pursue that end, we have a problem. I doubt there would be grounds to take issue with most of my philosophy. I am not an advocate for trans causes per sey. But I support my friends who identify in any way trans (I have a very good friend who actually identifies based on how he feels on a given day....or how she feels on a given day....one of the best people I know.)

Where I back down here is because, as I have said countless times, the safety issue.

Ideally....we'd educate the "Cis" women and most would come around and the system would work itself out.

But what I am told the reality is, and the women I have spoken to have expressed that it's a major issue for them and for others.....transgendered women (M-t-F) would be in danger. And the rest of the women would also feel in danger. This is particularly true if they have not been....forgive me if this sounds callous...."re-assigned" in terms of their parts.

Let me emphasize that that's where my fairly strong, and probably unusual, stance comes from.

If those same women told me "E, you know, we would welcome M-t-F, transitioned or not, there's a few problem women but we think we can handle them...." I would be all for it.

In the case of women I have talked to, resoundingly, that is not the case.

So my apologies for some of my grumpiness earlier.....I'm not counting on changing your mind with this. I am just hoping this sort of explains how I myself personally have arrived at my opinion on this issue, which frankly runs counter to my opinion in non-prison situations, sparing the outliers that I mentioned above.

-E
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  #106  
Old 09-14-2017, 04:06 AM
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What's sad is that we're even having to have this conversation at all.

The reality, of course, is that the vast majority of folks (trans or not) with penises aren't a threat to anyone. But on the other hand, the vast majority of sex crimes ARE committed by men -- that small minority of men that gives the rest of us men a bad name.

A lot of this reaction is no different than policies, for example, that don't allow male adults to sit next to unaccompanied minors aboard airline flights any more. Why? Because there's a statistically greater chance (even though it is a very small chance) a man might inappropriately touch a child than a woman would. So they make sure to only sit unaccompanied minors next to women now.

As a man, I would be quite offended if I were told to give up my seat, just because of what someone feared I might do. But that's the reality we live in today -- a few bad apples spoil the whole bunch.

So I can understand where some people are coming from here. Whether it's really a majority of women inside who feel this way or not (we've heard several anecdotal accounts here in this thread) I'd be interested in seeing objective surveys over, but in the end the facts really are going to speak for themselves.

If indeed there are too many complaints or perceived threats experienced by women inside, I'm sure the prisons will quickly reverse policy. I guess what I just don't understand is why some are getting so worked up about this issue, when it's really out of our hands. The prisons are going to do what they're going to do. They're going to experiment and figure out what approach works best. But I don't really see these polices becoming widespread unless they are able to make it work in some places first, so I don't see why people are getting so worked up over it.

If indeed, most women reject the idea of MTF transgendered prisoners being housed in the same facilities with them, the facts will speak for themselves and such policies will be ended.
  #107  
Old 09-14-2017, 05:33 AM
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Recently we were talking about things that happened in her dorm and my loved one simply replied "this place is full of broken people." There are not a lot of "good people" living in peace and harmony around her.
  #108  
Old 09-14-2017, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by missingdee View Post

But what I am told the reality is, and the women I have spoken to have expressed that it's a major issue for them and for others.....transgendered women (M-t-F) would be in danger. And the rest of the women would also feel in danger. This is particularly true if they have not been....forgive me if this sounds callous...."re-assigned" in terms of their parts.




-E
Thanks for explaining that. Like I said, the safety concern on both sides, I understand. What I don't is the strong feelings that it is an actual threat because they haven't had gender reassignment surgery. In my mind, hormone therapy is more important.

You're right the prisons are going to do what they are going to do. Discussions never hurt anyone though.

I've been on here for a long while just lurking and reading. My son's father was in prison for 7 years and been out for years. I recently started coming back and reading because I've been curious about recidivism and also re-entry into society. I've seen the struggles he has had and I've been searching locally where they can get help. He is not local, but I wanted to see if there was some place to volunteer to help. If that is just coaching for job interviews, shopping for clothes, help in finding places to stay, or just giving them rides places. I know he has not been able to re-instate his license (which is actually a child support issue). Anyway, that's all a bit off topic, just wanted to explain that I am very familiar with PTO even though I just started posting.
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  #109  
Old 09-14-2017, 09:02 AM
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But it doesn't matter what you or I think. Because it IS an issue. And according to women I've spoken with (not just Dee,) it would be a major safety concern. Because women in prison do not see these women as women.
Well thank god civil rights decisions aren't determined by committee in womens' prisons. They're determined in the courts where they belong.

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So their feelings are not fact?
Correct. Their feelings are not facts. They are their feelings. We all have them.

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I'm sorry, but after hearing all the arguments here, I am even more opposed to non-transitioned MTF being housed with females. You people don't appear to actually care.
The irony of this statement is priceless.

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Because as long as they have a penis they are men.
Except there are millions of women who have penises. Men that have penises are men. For instance, me. But women that have penises are women. This is not rocket science.

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I think Safran was speaking as a former inmate from the perspective of a female inmate.
Former inmates don't get to change the words of definitions to suit their narrative. Words mean what they mean.

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Originally Posted by safran View Post
And I maintain if somebody has a penis he will be viewed as a male in a female prison and he could easily be viewed as a threat. I would view him as a threat and I have never suffered from rape or abuse.

I think in this case a penis is a pretty clear indication that the book & cover can function as a male regardless of what the person feels like inside.
And I maintain if somebody is a woman she will be viewed as a woman in a male prison and he could easily be viewed as a target. Inmates would view her as a target for rape or abuse.

I think in this case, that she is a woman, is a pretty clear indication that the book & cover can function as a woman regardless of what she has between her legs.


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Out here in the free world I have no issues with transgender. Use the bathroom you're most comfortable with. Identify as you want. Live your life free.
But if you go to jail, be prepared to be raped by a bunch of male inmates because you're not woman enough to go to woman prison (just woman enough to be raped like a woman).

If the issue is safety of female inmates, as people keep claiming, then its a no brainer that we would want transgender women in female prisons.
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  #110  
Old 09-14-2017, 10:05 AM
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Well thank god civil rights decisions aren't determined by committee in womens' prisons. They're determined in the courts where they belong.



Correct. Their feelings are not facts. They are their feelings. We all have them.



The irony of this statement is priceless.



Except there are millions of women who have penises. Men that have penises are men. For instance, me. But women that have penises are women. This is not rocket science.



Former inmates don't get to change the words of definitions to suit their narrative. Words mean what they mean.



And I maintain if somebody is a woman she will be viewed as a woman in a male prison and he could easily be viewed as a target. Inmates would view her as a target for rape or abuse.

I think in this case, that she is a woman, is a pretty clear indication that the book & cover can function as a woman regardless of what she has between her legs.




But if you go to jail, be prepared to be raped by a bunch of male inmates because you're not woman enough to go to woman prison (just woman enough to be raped like a woman).

If the issue is safety of female inmates, as people keep claiming, then its a no brainer that we would want transgender women in female prisons.


You also once suggested that someone in paranoid delusion should approach the people he thinks are the police that are following him. So I don't really care what you think the "value" of my "irony" is. It is already clear to me that you have no problem putting people in dangerous situations for the benefit of your personal beliefs.

Their feelings exist. They are negative toward what you are proposing. That could create a violent situation and chaos in the system of institutional control necessary to run a prison. The facts that feelings create are inconvenient to you, but they are real.

When weighing civil rights issues, you don't just give people rights for the sake of giving them rights. You have to weigh the impact of what you are deciding and the circumstances of it.

Segregation is not necessary out here. It is sometimes necessary in a controlled environment such as prison which needs to remain controlled.
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  #111  
Old 09-14-2017, 10:45 AM
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It is already clear to me that you have no problem putting people in dangerous situations for the benefit of your personal beliefs.
Wow. Just wow. How you could determine that by anything that I've ever said, here or offline, is beyond comprehension.

Just wow.

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When weighing civil rights issues, you don't just give people rights for the sake of giving them rights. You have to weigh the impact of what you are deciding and the circumstances of it.
I don't recall seeing any of that verbiage in the Constitution. Can you point out to me where it says impacts and circumstances need to be decided before rights can be determined?

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Segregation is not necessary out here. It is sometimes necessary in a controlled environment such as prison which needs to remain controlled.
Segregating men with men and women with women seems to work pretty well. Why change it?
  #112  
Old 09-14-2017, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by missingdee View Post

When weighing civil rights issues, you don't just give people rights for the sake of giving them rights. You have to weigh the impact of what you are deciding and the circumstances of it.

Segregation is not necessary out here. It is sometimes necessary in a controlled environment such as prison which needs to remain controlled.
From what I have read, the reason some prisons are trying to make this change is to limit the # of people that need segregation. If it works out, great, if not, they will probably go back to segregation.

The question I would ask is, who gets segregated then? If it is a few inmates that have fears or don't like that transgender women are in housing with them that cause the issues, do they get segregated, or do the transgender women get segregated?

Whose civil rights are more important than others? Who is the judge of that? I think it's important to try to prevent that in any way possible because of the restrictions placed on being in protective custody/segregation/solitary. Not to mention the cost, which is a concern for the prison, but the least of my concerns. As MissingDee mentioned, I wouldn't want the safety of anyone compromised because of saving some dollars.

It seems it should be just like any other case. Certain crimes are automatically classified as higher risk, right? I think it's obvious, and I would hope, that any transgender female in prison for a sexual crime against another female would not be one of these inmates being housed in general population with other females. Who knows what they actually do, but I doubt it is a blanket statement, all transgender females, you are going directly to general population at women's prisons now.
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  #113  
Old 09-14-2017, 02:34 PM
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Segregating men with men and women with women seems to work pretty well. Why change it?
Because if you have a penis, by biological/physical definition, you are a man. And women do not want biological males housed with them. So, in that regard, I'm suggesting we not change anything.
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  #114  
Old 09-14-2017, 02:41 PM
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The question I would ask is, who gets segregated then? If it is a few inmates that have fears or don't like that transgender women are in housing with them that cause the issues, do they get segregated, or do the transgender women get segregated?

Whose civil rights are more important than others? Who is the judge of that? I think it's important to try to prevent that in any way possible because of the restrictions placed on being in protective custody/segregation/solitary. Not to mention the cost, which is a concern for the prison, but the least of my concerns. As MissingDee mentioned, I wouldn't want the safety of anyone compromised because of saving some dollars.
I think these are good, sane questions to ask.

If it's only a few inmates, segregation or at least separation of housing (making sure, for example, that women who have a noteable problem are not housed in the same cell if that is easily accomodated) should be directed at the inmates who say "no."

What I'm suggesting is that it isn't just a "few" in my experience.

What I'm also suggesting is there is no easy co-habitating solution. That's why I've recommended keeping them in some sort of "Special Needs" setting. Look, segregation and the concept of "separate but equal" don't set well with me, and I get that overall society tends to integrate more or less successfully (although not always smoothly.)

This is not a "normal" setting to begin with. It's a much more sensitive setting. Which is why I put the weight of what the women say into heavy consideration in my own opinion.

I do appreciate that you're making an effort at an actual dialogue here, and I think that your questions are important. If more integration is to occur, these are the sorts of questions that must be asked and the considerations that must be taken into account when coming up with a solution.

-E
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  #115  
Old 09-14-2017, 02:42 PM
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Because if you have a penis, by biological/physical definition, you are a man.
Unfortunately, that's just not true. And you know it, which is why you're trolling so hard in this thread.

There are millions of women who have penises...whether you like it or not. They are women.
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Old 09-14-2017, 02:46 PM
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There are millions of women who have penises...whether you like it or not. They are women.
We're now techincally off-topic. But gender-definition-wise, yes, they're women.

Sex-definition-wise, they're men.

That part of the discussion is over. Go argue with Merriam-Webster if you would like to continue that particular debate, because I'm done responding to you on this topic, too.
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  #117  
Old 09-14-2017, 02:48 PM
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Unfortunately, that's just not true. And you know it, which is why you're trolling so hard in this thread.

There are millions of women who have penises...whether you like it or not. They are women.
As of last year there were only 1.4 million individuals who identified as transgender in the United States....so I seriously doubt there are millions of women who have penises.

You accusing someone else, a moderator at that, of trolling is humorous.

The point is that there are women who feel threatened by a person with a penis in their housing. Changing with them, using the restroom with them. This is not a normal circumstance in prison and it does need to be addressed. You can't just tell the women to deal with it.
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  #118  
Old 09-14-2017, 08:52 PM
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It is a good thing we can simply agree to disagree here instead of one of the TIM's inflicting actual violence like occurred yesterday in London. A young male trans assaulted, causing serious injury, a 60yo female minister at a small gathering near Speakers Corner. Not surprisingly, Twitter today has precisely ZERO trans-related groups speaking out about the conduct and instead is filled with the 'punch a terf' nonsense.

The fact that actual females cannot gather to discuss the Gender Recognition Act without being physically assaulted by the TIM's is a serious problem. Ironically, the original venue had canceled at the last minute because of concerns about safety...
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  #119  
Old 09-15-2017, 08:58 AM
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As of last year there were only 1.4 million individuals who identified as transgender in the United States....so I seriously doubt there are millions of women who have penises.
The USA is 323M people, representing about 4.5% of the world population. There are tens of millions of transgendered people on the planet. Its safe to say at least one full million of them are women with penises.

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The point is that there are women who feel threatened by a person with a penis in their housing.
I disagree. The point is that women are being deliberately housed with men and these women are being abused. Hopefully, we can fix this problem now before it gets any worse.
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Old 09-15-2017, 09:00 AM
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We're now techincally off-topic. But gender-definition-wise, yes, they're women.

Sex-definition-wise, they're men.

That part of the discussion is over. Go argue with Merriam-Webster if you would like to continue that particular debate, because I'm done responding to you on this topic, too.
It wasn't very long ago that black people and Native Americans were not considered Human Beings in the US so it doesn't surprise me that some people feel the same about the way other people were born.
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Old 09-15-2017, 11:16 AM
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It wasn't very long ago that black people and Native Americans were not considered Human Beings in the US so it doesn't surprise me that some people feel the same about the way other people were born.


READ. THIS.

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/le...ender-identity

Planned Parenthood apparently agrees with me, too.

You are wrong. Flat-out. Either that or YOU are the troll, since you went there.
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Old 09-15-2017, 11:59 AM
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Also, nobody said they weren't human. They are human. Which is why SAFETY IS AN ISSUE. (And even if they weren't human and classified as animal, safety would still be an issue, but that's not the case and I digress....)

By the way, here's the thing that you all seem to be missing when it comes to the sex vs. gender thing.

On the "human" subject...biological sex remains important regardless of perceived gender because your brain might tell you you're male or female, but your body has parts and hormones and such that not only identify you as male or female, but those parts and hormones and such determine potential medical conditions.

Men and women have different medical needs. This isn't an identification issue. This isn't "feelings." It's fact. Women have an entire set of reproductive organs and hormonal balance that creates one environment, men's are entirely different. A man who identifies as a woman but has not transitioned still has a prostate and testicles. You don't stop getting cancer in those areas because you decide you're a woman. You can still impregnate a woman even if you identify as a woman (or a woman who identifies as a man can still become pregnant, see this article: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.3374888 )

To ignore the importance of biological sex in the scheme of things because you're a proponent of gender rights is as ignorant as denying that transgenders should have rights. And I'll point out, I've never said transgendered people shouldn't have rights. My argument this whole time is that they should have safety. And so should women who are not transgendered.

IT'S A SAFETY ISSUE. It's also a medical health issue. And many other things that some of you either 1.) ignore or 2.) don't seem to understand why we shouldn't be more flexible to the rights of these people in controlled environments. Adding mens care and hormonal care to already-stressed medical staff (keep in mind, prison medical care is terrible) also creates a safety issue for these women.
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Old 09-15-2017, 01:30 PM
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I haven't read the whole thread, sorry if this has been addressed. But what about pregnancy? Is that impossible cause of the hormones? If not what if they stop taking the hormones, is it possible then? And if so what happens to the baby? Are abortions legal to get while in prison? There are million other questions that can go with this. If those two inmates have a child together can they be together when they get out, as most released inmates have rules against being around felons? I mean the questions could go on forever unless this is not possible.
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Old 09-15-2017, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by missingdee View Post
READ. THIS.

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/le...ender-identity

Planned Parenthood apparently agrees with me, too.
That link pretty much backs up everything I have been saying. However, PP is not the definitive voice for transgendered people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by missingdee View Post
Also, nobody said they weren't human.
Nobody said anybody said transgendered people weren't human. What's with you and these strawmen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by missingdee View Post
To ignore the importance of biological sex in the scheme of things because you're a proponent of gender rights is as ignorant as denying that transgenders should have rights.
I'm not ignoring its importance, I'm just not exaggerating it. I'm also not a proponent of gender rights. I am a proponent of the US Constitution.

Regardless. Trying to reason with the unreasonable is futile. Your repeated use of strawmen has given me no other choice but to stop engaging until you have learned how to talk to people on the internet.
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Old 09-15-2017, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
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I haven't read the whole thread, sorry if this has been addressed. But what about pregnancy? Is that impossible cause of the hormones? If not what if they stop taking the hormones, is it possible then? And if so what happens to the baby? Are abortions legal to get while in prison? There are million other questions that can go with this. If those two inmates have a child together can they be together when they get out, as most released inmates have rules against being around felons? I mean the questions could go on forever unless this is not possible.


That is a good series of hypotheticals to address. Thank you for that.
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