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  #101  
Old 09-13-2017, 10:16 PM
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gta5518, I know you're relatively new to PTO, so first off welcome. In your profile you write that you have a friend in prison. I hope PTO can be a good source of information and support for you.

I wish there was a way that you could go to visitation with me this weekend. It's the only time I'm able to have off the record discussions with my loved one and it's when I learn about what her life inside is like. She is not my only data point, but everything she says I know I can trust.
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  #102  
Old 09-13-2017, 10:33 PM
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To respond to something gta brought up earlier for a moment, if I may....

The reason I'm appearing a lot less rational or well-thought-out on this topic specifically is because it deals with an inmate issue where I have gotten a lot of feedback from female inmates.

Out here in the free world I have no issues with transgender. Use the bathroom you're most comfortable with. Identify as you want. Live your life free. If you are a good person and you come from a place of love, then I will respond in kind. If you are the extreme example of a male who commits sexual assault against women and uses a female identity to try to pursue that end, we have a problem. I doubt there would be grounds to take issue with most of my philosophy. I am not an advocate for trans causes per sey. But I support my friends who identify in any way trans (I have a very good friend who actually identifies based on how he feels on a given day....or how she feels on a given day....one of the best people I know.)

Where I back down here is because, as I have said countless times, the safety issue.

Ideally....we'd educate the "Cis" women and most would come around and the system would work itself out.

But what I am told the reality is, and the women I have spoken to have expressed that it's a major issue for them and for others.....transgendered women (M-t-F) would be in danger. And the rest of the women would also feel in danger. This is particularly true if they have not been....forgive me if this sounds callous...."re-assigned" in terms of their parts.

Let me emphasize that that's where my fairly strong, and probably unusual, stance comes from.

If those same women told me "E, you know, we would welcome M-t-F, transitioned or not, there's a few problem women but we think we can handle them...." I would be all for it.

In the case of women I have talked to, resoundingly, that is not the case.

So my apologies for some of my grumpiness earlier.....I'm not counting on changing your mind with this. I am just hoping this sort of explains how I myself personally have arrived at my opinion on this issue, which frankly runs counter to my opinion in non-prison situations, sparing the outliers that I mentioned above.

-E
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  #103  
Old 09-14-2017, 03:06 AM
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What's sad is that we're even having to have this conversation at all.

The reality, of course, is that the vast majority of folks (trans or not) with penises aren't a threat to anyone. But on the other hand, the vast majority of sex crimes ARE committed by men -- that small minority of men that gives the rest of us men a bad name.

A lot of this reaction is no different than policies, for example, that don't allow male adults to sit next to unaccompanied minors aboard airline flights any more. Why? Because there's a statistically greater chance (even though it is a very small chance) a man might inappropriately touch a child than a woman would. So they make sure to only sit unaccompanied minors next to women now.

As a man, I would be quite offended if I were told to give up my seat, just because of what someone feared I might do. But that's the reality we live in today -- a few bad apples spoil the whole bunch.

So I can understand where some people are coming from here. Whether it's really a majority of women inside who feel this way or not (we've heard several anecdotal accounts here in this thread) I'd be interested in seeing objective surveys over, but in the end the facts really are going to speak for themselves.

If indeed there are too many complaints or perceived threats experienced by women inside, I'm sure the prisons will quickly reverse policy. I guess what I just don't understand is why some are getting so worked up about this issue, when it's really out of our hands. The prisons are going to do what they're going to do. They're going to experiment and figure out what approach works best. But I don't really see these polices becoming widespread unless they are able to make it work in some places first, so I don't see why people are getting so worked up over it.

If indeed, most women reject the idea of MTF transgendered prisoners being housed in the same facilities with them, the facts will speak for themselves and such policies will be ended.
  #104  
Old 09-14-2017, 04:33 AM
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Recently we were talking about things that happened in her dorm and my loved one simply replied "this place is full of broken people." There are not a lot of "good people" living in peace and harmony around her.
  #105  
Old 09-14-2017, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by missingdee View Post

But what I am told the reality is, and the women I have spoken to have expressed that it's a major issue for them and for others.....transgendered women (M-t-F) would be in danger. And the rest of the women would also feel in danger. This is particularly true if they have not been....forgive me if this sounds callous...."re-assigned" in terms of their parts.




-E
Thanks for explaining that. Like I said, the safety concern on both sides, I understand. What I don't is the strong feelings that it is an actual threat because they haven't had gender reassignment surgery. In my mind, hormone therapy is more important.

You're right the prisons are going to do what they are going to do. Discussions never hurt anyone though.

I've been on here for a long while just lurking and reading. My son's father was in prison for 7 years and been out for years. I recently started coming back and reading because I've been curious about recidivism and also re-entry into society. I've seen the struggles he has had and I've been searching locally where they can get help. He is not local, but I wanted to see if there was some place to volunteer to help. If that is just coaching for job interviews, shopping for clothes, help in finding places to stay, or just giving them rides places. I know he has not been able to re-instate his license (which is actually a child support issue). Anyway, that's all a bit off topic, just wanted to explain that I am very familiar with PTO even though I just started posting.
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  #106  
Old 09-14-2017, 09:05 AM
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Default Female Inmates Feel Endangered by Trans Women in Prison

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Originally Posted by jsanner View Post
Well thank god civil rights decisions aren't determined by committee in womens' prisons. They're determined in the courts where they belong.



Correct. Their feelings are not facts. They are their feelings. We all have them.



The irony of this statement is priceless.



Except there are millions of women who have penises. Men that have penises are men. For instance, me. But women that have penises are women. This is not rocket science.



Former inmates don't get to change the words of definitions to suit their narrative. Words mean what they mean.



And I maintain if somebody is a woman she will be viewed as a woman in a male prison and he could easily be viewed as a target. Inmates would view her as a target for rape or abuse.

I think in this case, that she is a woman, is a pretty clear indication that the book & cover can function as a woman regardless of what she has between her legs.




But if you go to jail, be prepared to be raped by a bunch of male inmates because you're not woman enough to go to woman prison (just woman enough to be raped like a woman).

If the issue is safety of female inmates, as people keep claiming, then its a no brainer that we would want transgender women in female prisons.


You also once suggested that someone in paranoid delusion should approach the people he thinks are the police that are following him. So I don't really care what you think the "value" of my "irony" is. It is already clear to me that you have no problem putting people in dangerous situations for the benefit of your personal beliefs.

Their feelings exist. They are negative toward what you are proposing. That could create a violent situation and chaos in the system of institutional control necessary to run a prison. The facts that feelings create are inconvenient to you, but they are real.

When weighing civil rights issues, you don't just give people rights for the sake of giving them rights. You have to weigh the impact of what you are deciding and the circumstances of it.

Segregation is not necessary out here. It is sometimes necessary in a controlled environment such as prison which needs to remain controlled.
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  #107  
Old 09-14-2017, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by missingdee View Post

When weighing civil rights issues, you don't just give people rights for the sake of giving them rights. You have to weigh the impact of what you are deciding and the circumstances of it.

Segregation is not necessary out here. It is sometimes necessary in a controlled environment such as prison which needs to remain controlled.
From what I have read, the reason some prisons are trying to make this change is to limit the # of people that need segregation. If it works out, great, if not, they will probably go back to segregation.

The question I would ask is, who gets segregated then? If it is a few inmates that have fears or don't like that transgender women are in housing with them that cause the issues, do they get segregated, or do the transgender women get segregated?

Whose civil rights are more important than others? Who is the judge of that? I think it's important to try to prevent that in any way possible because of the restrictions placed on being in protective custody/segregation/solitary. Not to mention the cost, which is a concern for the prison, but the least of my concerns. As MissingDee mentioned, I wouldn't want the safety of anyone compromised because of saving some dollars.

It seems it should be just like any other case. Certain crimes are automatically classified as higher risk, right? I think it's obvious, and I would hope, that any transgender female in prison for a sexual crime against another female would not be one of these inmates being housed in general population with other females. Who knows what they actually do, but I doubt it is a blanket statement, all transgender females, you are going directly to general population at women's prisons now.
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  #108  
Old 09-14-2017, 01:34 PM
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Segregating men with men and women with women seems to work pretty well. Why change it?
Because if you have a penis, by biological/physical definition, you are a man. And women do not want biological males housed with them. So, in that regard, I'm suggesting we not change anything.
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  #109  
Old 09-14-2017, 01:41 PM
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The question I would ask is, who gets segregated then? If it is a few inmates that have fears or don't like that transgender women are in housing with them that cause the issues, do they get segregated, or do the transgender women get segregated?

Whose civil rights are more important than others? Who is the judge of that? I think it's important to try to prevent that in any way possible because of the restrictions placed on being in protective custody/segregation/solitary. Not to mention the cost, which is a concern for the prison, but the least of my concerns. As MissingDee mentioned, I wouldn't want the safety of anyone compromised because of saving some dollars.
I think these are good, sane questions to ask.

If it's only a few inmates, segregation or at least separation of housing (making sure, for example, that women who have a noteable problem are not housed in the same cell if that is easily accomodated) should be directed at the inmates who say "no."

What I'm suggesting is that it isn't just a "few" in my experience.

What I'm also suggesting is there is no easy co-habitating solution. That's why I've recommended keeping them in some sort of "Special Needs" setting. Look, segregation and the concept of "separate but equal" don't set well with me, and I get that overall society tends to integrate more or less successfully (although not always smoothly.)

This is not a "normal" setting to begin with. It's a much more sensitive setting. Which is why I put the weight of what the women say into heavy consideration in my own opinion.

I do appreciate that you're making an effort at an actual dialogue here, and I think that your questions are important. If more integration is to occur, these are the sorts of questions that must be asked and the considerations that must be taken into account when coming up with a solution.

-E
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  #110  
Old 09-14-2017, 01:46 PM
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There are millions of women who have penises...whether you like it or not. They are women.
We're now techincally off-topic. But gender-definition-wise, yes, they're women.

Sex-definition-wise, they're men.

That part of the discussion is over. Go argue with Merriam-Webster if you would like to continue that particular debate, because I'm done responding to you on this topic, too.
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  #111  
Old 09-14-2017, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jsanner View Post
Unfortunately, that's just not true. And you know it, which is why you're trolling so hard in this thread.

There are millions of women who have penises...whether you like it or not. They are women.
As of last year there were only 1.4 million individuals who identified as transgender in the United States....so I seriously doubt there are millions of women who have penises.

You accusing someone else, a moderator at that, of trolling is humorous.

The point is that there are women who feel threatened by a person with a penis in their housing. Changing with them, using the restroom with them. This is not a normal circumstance in prison and it does need to be addressed. You can't just tell the women to deal with it.
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  #112  
Old 09-14-2017, 07:52 PM
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It is a good thing we can simply agree to disagree here instead of one of the TIM's inflicting actual violence like occurred yesterday in London. A young male trans assaulted, causing serious injury, a 60yo female minister at a small gathering near Speakers Corner. Not surprisingly, Twitter today has precisely ZERO trans-related groups speaking out about the conduct and instead is filled with the 'punch a terf' nonsense.

The fact that actual females cannot gather to discuss the Gender Recognition Act without being physically assaulted by the TIM's is a serious problem. Ironically, the original venue had canceled at the last minute because of concerns about safety...
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  #113  
Old 09-15-2017, 10:16 AM
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It wasn't very long ago that black people and Native Americans were not considered Human Beings in the US so it doesn't surprise me that some people feel the same about the way other people were born.


READ. THIS.

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/le...ender-identity

Planned Parenthood apparently agrees with me, too.

You are wrong. Flat-out. Either that or YOU are the troll, since you went there.
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  #114  
Old 09-15-2017, 10:59 AM
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Also, nobody said they weren't human. They are human. Which is why SAFETY IS AN ISSUE. (And even if they weren't human and classified as animal, safety would still be an issue, but that's not the case and I digress....)

By the way, here's the thing that you all seem to be missing when it comes to the sex vs. gender thing.

On the "human" subject...biological sex remains important regardless of perceived gender because your brain might tell you you're male or female, but your body has parts and hormones and such that not only identify you as male or female, but those parts and hormones and such determine potential medical conditions.

Men and women have different medical needs. This isn't an identification issue. This isn't "feelings." It's fact. Women have an entire set of reproductive organs and hormonal balance that creates one environment, men's are entirely different. A man who identifies as a woman but has not transitioned still has a prostate and testicles. You don't stop getting cancer in those areas because you decide you're a woman. You can still impregnate a woman even if you identify as a woman (or a woman who identifies as a man can still become pregnant, see this article: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.3374888 )

To ignore the importance of biological sex in the scheme of things because you're a proponent of gender rights is as ignorant as denying that transgenders should have rights. And I'll point out, I've never said transgendered people shouldn't have rights. My argument this whole time is that they should have safety. And so should women who are not transgendered.

IT'S A SAFETY ISSUE. It's also a medical health issue. And many other things that some of you either 1.) ignore or 2.) don't seem to understand why we shouldn't be more flexible to the rights of these people in controlled environments. Adding mens care and hormonal care to already-stressed medical staff (keep in mind, prison medical care is terrible) also creates a safety issue for these women.
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  #115  
Old 09-15-2017, 12:30 PM
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I haven't read the whole thread, sorry if this has been addressed. But what about pregnancy? Is that impossible cause of the hormones? If not what if they stop taking the hormones, is it possible then? And if so what happens to the baby? Are abortions legal to get while in prison? There are million other questions that can go with this. If those two inmates have a child together can they be together when they get out, as most released inmates have rules against being around felons? I mean the questions could go on forever unless this is not possible.
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Old 09-15-2017, 12:37 PM
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I haven't read the whole thread, sorry if this has been addressed. But what about pregnancy? Is that impossible cause of the hormones? If not what if they stop taking the hormones, is it possible then? And if so what happens to the baby? Are abortions legal to get while in prison? There are million other questions that can go with this. If those two inmates have a child together can they be together when they get out, as most released inmates have rules against being around felons? I mean the questions could go on forever unless this is not possible.


That is a good series of hypotheticals to address. Thank you for that.
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Old 09-15-2017, 01:26 PM
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When weighing civil rights issues, you don't just give people rights for the sake of giving them rights. You have to weigh the impact of what you are deciding and the circumstances of it.
This statement disturbs me on so many levels. I have heard it before when discussing civil rights issues, and always from white heterosexual males.

It implies that rights are yours to give or withhold at your superior discretion. That women and minorities who demand those rights must first convince you that they need/deserve/have earned them, and that "giving" those rights will not impact you or the rest of the rights givers in any way. If they can successfully do that, than in your infinite generosity, you will kindly bestow rights upon them. And then you will pat yourself on the back for "giving" them what only you are truly entitled to.

Been here too many times to count, yet I still find it disturbing when seemingly progressive men accidentally reveal it.
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Old 09-15-2017, 01:27 PM
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I haven't read the whole thread, sorry if this has been addressed. But what about pregnancy? Is that impossible cause of the hormones? If not what if they stop taking the hormones, is it possible then? And if so what happens to the baby? Are abortions legal to get while in prison? There are million other questions that can go with this. If those two inmates have a child together can they be together when they get out, as most released inmates have rules against being around felons? I mean the questions could go on forever unless this is not possible.
Yeah, interesting. From what I gather with hormones, it becomes less likely, but not impossible. If semen is produced and comes in contact, obviously there is a chance. The hormones make it less functioning in some people, not at all functioning in others. Less of a sex drive in general as well. Gonna have to do more research on that. ~goes to google~
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Old 09-15-2017, 01:28 PM
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This statement disturbs me on so many levels. I have heard it before when discussing civil rights issues, and always from white heterosexual males.



It implies that rights are yours to give or withhold at your superior discretion. That women and minorities who demand those rights must first convince you that they need/deserve/have earned them, and that "giving" those rights will not impact you or the rest of the rights givers in any way. If they can successfully do that, than in your infinite generosity, you will kindly bestow rights upon them. And then you will pat yourself on the back for "giving" them what only you are truly entitled to.



Been here too many times to count, yet I still find it disturbing when seemingly progressive men accidentally reveal it.


And your absolute disregard for reality disturbs me on so many levels.

I don't know what sheltered world you live in but the world doesn't work that way
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  #120  
Old 09-15-2017, 01:41 PM
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Let me tell you what else disturbs me greatly. The fact that some people here seem to think that Dee, and actual woman who has served time in an actual women's facility, and others she served time with should have no voice in the matter.

Where's THEIR right to SAFETY and to being heard?
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Old 09-15-2017, 01:47 PM
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And your absolute disregard for reality disturbs me on so many levels.

I don't know what sheltered world you live in but the world doesn't work that way
Sheltered? That's a laugh. Quite the opposite actually. However I am not here to tell my life story.

Up until this thread, I considered you to be probably the most rational, level headed regular poster. The anger and defiance that you have shown here tells me that you are not entirely comfortable with your position. You have talked to Dee and her friends. That's how they feel and you are all for it. I actually get that. For most people, the comfort of their loved ones is more important than the rights of nameless, faceless transgender women. I don't fault you for that. But you can't rationally defend it, which is usually your strong point. So these baseless accusations about what posters care about and what terrible things will happen if it becomes a reality are all you have. But it's already happening. There are pre-op transgender women at women's facilities all over the country. Those decisions are supposed to be made on a case by case basis, when in practice it's more about the personal beliefs of the person making the decision. But it is happening. And the violent outrage that Dee and her friends have suggested is not. So basically, you are wrong. She is wrong, and they are wrong. But your sticking to your certainty of inevitable violence because there is no other reason not to allow it.
  #122  
Old 09-15-2017, 01:49 PM
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Let me tell you what else disturbs me greatly. The fact that some people here seem to think that Dee, and actual woman who has served time in an actual women's facility, and others she served time with should have no voice in the matter.

Where's THEIR right to SAFETY and to being heard?
I agree 100% with Dee. Women in prison have rights too and those rights are just as important as the next inmates.
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  #123  
Old 09-15-2017, 01:55 PM
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Sheltered? That's a laugh. Quite the opposite actually. However I am not here to tell my life story.



Up until this thread, I considered you to be probably the most rational, level headed regular poster. The anger and defiance that you have shown here tells me that you are not entirely comfortable with your position. You have talked to Dee and her friends. That's how they feel and you are all for it. I actually get that. For most people, the comfort of their loved ones is more important than the rights of nameless, faceless transgender women. I don't fault you for that. But you can't rationally defend it, which is usually your strong point. So these baseless accusations about what posters care about and what terrible things will happen if it becomes a reality are all you have. But it's already happening. There are pre-op transgender women at women's facilities all over the country. Those decisions are supposed to be made on a case by case basis, when in practice it's more about the personal beliefs of the person making the decision. But it is happening. And the violent outrage that Dee and her friends have suggested is not. So basically, you are wrong. She is wrong, and they are wrong. But your sticking to your certainty of inevitable violence because there is no other reason not to allow it.


The women who were born women (not just Dee)have no voice, in your opinion, from what I can see. I speak for them. If you don't like that, then I don't know what to tell you. But I stand by my point. You are about as disconnected from reality as can be. If you weren't, you'd listen to the opinions of actual women serving actual time in actual prisons instead of being a misguided social justice warrior.
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  #124  
Old 09-15-2017, 02:11 PM
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Yes, everybody is wrong except you. How much time have you spent in prisons for women? Just because we have a different opinion of things than you do does not automatically make us wrong.

"She is wrong, and they are wrong."
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Old 09-15-2017, 02:12 PM
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But I am a woman and I was born a woman. I don't hate women who were born with penises nor do I fear them. While I have never served time, if I ever do, transgender women would be the least of my concerns. I would be more likely to fear someone based on their crimes than their genitals. I'm sorry that Dee and her friends feel the way that they do, but there is no evidence that a transgender woman poses a threat to them. Prison policies have never been based on what inmates want.
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