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  #1  
Old 07-29-2015, 01:05 AM
CorvetteGuy CorvetteGuy is offline
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Default Not known prior to incarceration

My PP wants me to come visit. We did not know each other before this incarceration. She hinted strongly at what I should put, in an email, but if anyone goes back and reads our other emails (yeesh, what a job that would be, we probably fire a dozen or more back and forth a day), it's clear we didn't know each other on the outs.

I'm a lawyer. Whatever you might think of lawyers, we have a duty of honesty, yada yada. I'm not comfortable lying on the form.

I can visit as an attorney (I'm handling some licensing issues for her out here, so there's an attorney-client relationship established, engagement letter and all). I'm not going to abuse that privilege to have a personal visit.

I'm planning on writing the warden and setting forth all of this... Anyone want to lay odds on the likelihood they'll okay it? She gets visits occasionally (yearly or so) from family already, but I'd be the only friend visiting.
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Old 07-29-2015, 01:23 AM
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In the first instance you should fill out the visiting application form , you can find it on line and print it off.
If your PP is suggesting you should not be honest on the form then that should be a bit of a red flag. You probably know better than all of us that you should not lie on a federal document.
It is likely you will get rejected at the first stage due to having no not known each other prior to incarceration. At that point she can appeal to her unit manager and you can write to the warden and make your case stating how you are a positive influence on her etc
Good luck
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Old 07-29-2015, 06:03 AM
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I am at least glad to hear that you aren't willing to abuse the professional oath and privileges for the sake of visitation...

As already noted, it should be a red flag that they want you to be less than forthright on the application. That is the first step towards setting someone up...and since you have a career that is predicated upon licensure by the State, it means you need to proceed with caution lest you have to deal with a Bar complaint, however unfounded it might be.
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Old 07-29-2015, 02:31 PM
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Dude, why are you thinking of getting involved (again) with an inmate who's willing to lie? Seriously, you've got to think about this more deeply, before you get hurt by diving into the deep end without looking closely.
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Old 07-29-2015, 02:59 PM
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Dude, why are you thinking of getting involved (again) with an inmate who's willing to lie? Seriously, you've got to think about this more deeply, before you get hurt by diving into the deep end without looking closely.
Agreed. My gut tells me this can go wrong in sooooooo many ways.
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Old 07-29-2015, 03:11 PM
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After knowing her all of, what, a week? I'd say the odds of the Warden letting you visit her are somewhere between Lysle Lovett and Pema Chodron.(slim and nun).
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Old 07-29-2015, 03:22 PM
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She knows you're a lawyer. She knows what it WILL mean to your career and life if you lie on a federal document. The question you should be asking is why do you still want to meet this person, who obviously doesn't care too much about your well-being? The only one who can answer that one is you.

I wish you all the best.
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Old 07-29-2015, 07:03 PM
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In my experience, a lot of inmates have a very sort of Machiavellian view of such things ("it's only wrong if you get caught"). I doubt she thought through any implications or repercussions, for me or her. (If you knew who she was, or the circumstances behind her sentence, that might make more sense. PM me if you'd like to know more.)

And we're not "getting involved." She would like me to visit, and I happen to need to rack up a fair number of cross country flight hours (I'm going to go for my instrument rating). So things might work out that way - assuming I get approved by the warden, fly to Aliceville, meet this person, fly back... But I've been very clear with her and myself - this is "pen pals only." I'm still (as unsuccessfully as ever) dating in the world, etc.

But it's been very nice to have someone to talk to (for both of us) who gets all the things, and with whom we can each be ourselves and totally honest. Through CorrLinks we've exchanged literally hundreds of pages since 7/7, and we've talked on the phone 180 minutes so far this month(!)...

Talking face to face will hopefully happen, but only if done the right way.
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Old 07-29-2015, 09:10 PM
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That is a lot of communication for someone is just a friend. Good luck getting on her list!
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Old 07-29-2015, 09:13 PM
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That is a lot of communication for someone is just a friend. Good luck getting on her list!
We each seem to uniquely fill the other's respective holes. Wait, not that way.

Nature abhors a vacuum ... And we can be more than "just friends" without being "involved." Like cousins. Or something.
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Old 07-29-2015, 09:56 PM
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We each seem to uniquely fill the other's respective holes. Wait, not that way.

Nature abhors a vacuum ... And we can be more than "just friends" without being "involved.".
We can sleep in the same bed naked and not have sex...
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Old 07-30-2015, 01:30 PM
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You have known this lady a couple of weeks ,I have had a longer relationship with a carton of eggs.

Already you are rushing into multiple emails per day , thinking of applying to visit, making plans to fly to visit her and making assumptions that she is a particular way and why.. You cannot possibly know this woman, all you know is her case and what she has chosen to tell you.

A couple of weeks ago you posted about your bad experience with your previous MWI who turned out not to be what you thought she was. I can understand that you want to meet someone you can talk to and be yourself with and be 100% honest with. However your friend has already hinted you should be dishonest on a federal document. There is no 100% honesty here. We are all vulnerable at the end of a relationship and you seem to be being sucked into this new MWI friendship, a friendship which could have dire consequences for you in terms of your mental wellbeing and your career.

You are obviously an intelligent man, step back and look at the red flags flying.
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Old 07-30-2015, 11:15 PM
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You have known this lady a couple of weeks ,I have had a longer relationship with a carton of eggs.

Already you are rushing into multiple emails per day , thinking of applying to visit, making plans to fly to visit her and making assumptions that she is a particular way and why.. You cannot possibly know this woman, all you know is her case and what she has chosen to tell you.
180 emails back and forth in the past 10 days. Holy... (I took an hour this afternoon and wrote a little program to organize the CorrLinks PDFs.)

I guess we were both incredibly starved for contact. (And I wasn't making plans until she invited me to. I've come to (de facto) operate on the assumption that I'm not wanted (not always "unwanted," just, not generally sought), until and unless there's a clear indication to the contrary.

I'm not sure I'm exaggerating when I say she may have (unbeknownst to her) "kept me alive" the past couple of weeks. I was (am) so down, alone, lonely... Any port in a storm, right?

But I'm not going to let any of it compromise my ethics, professional or otherwise.

And maybe ... Likely ... An arms length friendship / pen pal relationship ... Red flags or no ... Is better than totally empty days when all you're otherwise doing is spinning & spiraling...

What's more damaging to career and wellbeing? I feel like I'm living in a Stabbing Westward song, or maybe 1990s Nine Inch Nails...
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Old 07-30-2015, 11:17 PM
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(Also the email count ... I've sent about half what she has. If anyone's rushing, it's not me. I'm just thrilled someone wants to hear from me, I wouldn't "blow it" by being too much...)
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Old 07-30-2015, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by CorvetteGuy View Post
My PP wants me to come visit. We did not know each other before this incarceration. She hinted strongly at what I should put, in an email, but if anyone goes back and reads our other emails (yeesh, what a job that would be, we probably fire a dozen or more back and forth a day), it's clear we didn't know each other on the outs.

I'm a lawyer. Whatever you might think of lawyers, we have a duty of honesty, yada yada. I'm not comfortable lying on the form.

I can visit as an attorney (I'm handling some licensing issues for her out here, so there's an attorney-client relationship established, engagement letter and all). I'm not going to abuse that privilege to have a personal visit.

I'm planning on writing the warden and setting forth all of this... Anyone want to lay odds on the likelihood they'll okay it? She gets visits occasionally (yearly or so) from family already, but I'd be the only friend visiting.
I did not know my pp prior to incarceration and I was honest on the form and was aporoved no problem, the first time around. It all depends. He is in federal facility
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Old 07-31-2015, 05:46 AM
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You want more than a pen pal relationship else you would be satisfied with correspondence. What I would suggest is to set up a profile on an online dating service. That will keep you so busy meeting new women you will only have time to correspond with you pen pal. I met my wife on an online dating service 15 years ago. It works, and you will never have an excuse not to be out dating. You sound lonely if not a little needy and this pen pal thing is the most convenient thing around right now. Another thing, the only way men and women can remain "just friends" is if one finds something unappealing about the other ... otherwise the goal becomes an intimate relationship no matter how short the duration or what the consequences are. If you want to visit, fine visit ... but don't fool yourself into thinking you are just after friendly chit chat.
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Old 07-31-2015, 06:26 AM
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If I wanted more, I'd have written to someone less than 1800 miles away, with less than 21 1/2 years left to serve...

And I'm on the online dating sites. Have been for 1.5 decades. eHarmony. Match.com. Chemistry.com. OkCupid. PlentyOfFish. Even fringe sites like gk2gk.com and trekkiedating.com. I've had many first dates. A handful of second dates. Can count on one hand the number of third dates. Some of them pretty intense ("share a cabin in Bug Bear with me and my friends over Thanksgiving"). None that ever amounted to anything.

I am lonely. And probably a little needy. I keep the latter in check, as much as I can. I know it's a turn off. (I've sought help for these specific issues. Did everything I was tasked to. No improvement. Still awkward, lonely, alone...)

(I think I fell as hard as I did for my "MWI" because we'd known each other so long, and she made the overtures in spite of all if my imperfections ... I should have known better ... But I wanted so desperately to believe...)
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Old 07-31-2015, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CorvetteGuy View Post
If I wanted more, I'd have written to someone less than 1800 miles away, with less than 21 1/2 years left to serve...
Or, playing devil's advocate, that is what makes someone like this one 'safe' in your eyes...there is no immediacy of having to actually 'be together' yet at the same time you get to claim 'in a relationship' thus filling whatever void exists in your life.

Quote:
(I think I fell as hard as I did for my "MWI" because we'd known each other so long, and she made the overtures in spite of all if my imperfections ... I should have known better ... But I wanted so desperately to believe...)
And yet now you admit in THIS thread that the current pen-pal is the one 'rushing things' if either of you were...the red flags are there, especially combined with the discussions of how to 'get around' federal regulations for visitation purposes.
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Old 07-31-2015, 07:30 AM
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What would be the problem with just writing that you're visiting a friend anyway? I doubt they request how long you've known each other. I'm currently completing the forms to visit my penpal in Ohio and all they ask is if you're a friend or a family member, and for the later, specify the family relationship to the inmate. And then it's all about your background check.
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Old 07-31-2015, 08:09 AM
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Or, playing devil's advocate, that is what makes someone like this one 'safe' in your eyes...there is no immediacy of having to actually 'be together' yet at the same time you get to claim 'in a relationship' thus filling whatever void exists in your life.
You're not wrong. But since there's not even the pretense of possible immediacy... I'm not going to be "stuck waiting" for this person. We can write. We can talk. In a month we can Skype. Same as I used to with other friends, before everyone started families etc and became largely too busy. (Of the half dozen guys I used to ride motorcycles and otherwise hang out with, I'm the only one not now married with kids. Etc.)


Quote:
And yet now you admit in THIS thread that the current pen-pal is the one 'rushing things' if either of you were...the red flags are there, especially combined with the discussions of how to 'get around' federal regulations for visitation purposes.
Same same, but different. (1800 miles. More than 2 decades left of 360 months at 85%. And ... I'm in a different place. More guarded.)

Also, I'm not talking about getting around any rules. She hinted that way. I'm not going to discuss it with her over monitored communication channels (don't want her to get in trouble). But I'm going to do it "right" and see how it goes.
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Old 07-31-2015, 08:12 AM
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What would be the problem with just writing that you're visiting a friend anyway? I doubt they request how long you've known each other. I'm currently completing the forms to visit my penpal in Ohio and all they ask is if you're a friend or a family member, and for the later, specify the family relationship to the inmate. And then it's all about your background check.
Federal is different. The form specifically asks if you knew the person prior to incarceration and, if yes, requires you to "indicate the length of time you have known this person and where the relationship developed."

http://www.bop.gov/policy/forms/BP_A0629.pdf
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Old 07-31-2015, 08:32 AM
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It won't hurt to submit your request. I was approved to visit without much trouble. Reading your posts, though, I'm under the impression that there's one relationship that's worth working on - the one with yourself.
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Old 07-31-2015, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
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Federal is different. The form specifically asks if you knew the person prior to incarceration and, if yes, requires you to "indicate the length of time you have known this person and where the relationship developed."

http://www.bop.gov/policy/forms/BP_A0629.pdf
Oh I get it!

Honestly I would just check "no" and not mention anything else if they don't ask. I don't think you have to justify your relationship or friendship to them.

Do you know how they perceive lawyers visiting friends in prison?
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Old 07-31-2015, 08:41 AM
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Reading your posts, though, I'm under the impression that there's one relationship that's worth working on - the one with yourself.
Again, you're not wrong ... I don't know where to begin though. How do you alter a subjective understanding when the best evidence you can find supports an objective basis for that understanding?
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Old 07-31-2015, 09:00 AM
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Are you sensing a theme to your threads? Regardless of the original subject matter, we end up circling back to your need to learn to love yourself. Yeah, I know...it's incredibly complicated and expensive.

As for the notion that a couple thousand miles and a long sentence will slow your roll in falling for her, there are plenty of international members and those married to lifers who are rolling their eyes right now.

Don't lie on the form, send it in and see what happens. That is if you still choose to ignore the fact that she was totally cool with throwing honesty under the bus from the jump.

Last edited by miamac; 07-31-2015 at 09:03 AM..
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