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  #1  
Old 07-01-2018, 06:15 PM
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Default Is there real hope for prison reform?

Is there real hope for prison reform? Nonviolent offenders and the “Kim Kardashian moment”


"When Kim Kardashian went to the White House in May to advocate for prison reform and clemency, it was the first time many of us had heard of Alice Marie Johnson. In the early '90s, after she'd lost her job with FedEx, the Alabama grandmother became involved in a local drug trafficking operation. She maintains she only handled coded messages via phone and never handled drugs directly. For doing that, she had been serving a life sentence. But Johnson, who is now a free woman, had long been on Amy Povah's radar. Like Johnson, Povah had lost years of her life to the punitive war on drugs.

Back in the late '80s, a few years into her marriage to her now ex-husband, Povah discovered that he had been involved in an international ecstasy business. He asked her to handle some "financial matters" for him while he was dealing with some legal wrangling. At her trial, there was no evidence she'd sold drugs or been directly involved with the dealers. The ex eventually served four years in prison. For conspiracy, Amy was sentenced to 24.

"As is so often the case with conspiracy laws," she now says, "you can just be one spoke in the wheel and no clue what your network is." And you can wind up incarcerated indefinitely."


https://www.salon.com/2018/06/29/is-...ashian-moment/
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Old 07-01-2018, 08:15 PM
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There's bipartisan pressure for reform now. On the conservative side, the Kochs have been pushing for change. With actual legislation getting out of committee I'd say there is small but realistic hope.
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Old 07-01-2018, 09:53 PM
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There's bipartisan pressure for reform now. On the conservative side, the Kochs have been pushing for change. With actual legislation getting out of committee I'd say there is small but realistic hope.
You'd hope something will change, except you have Sessions who wants the stiffest penalties.
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Old 07-02-2018, 07:26 AM
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Personally I think as long as prison continues to be "big business" we will not have a chance at real reform.
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Old 07-02-2018, 07:45 AM
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Personally I think as long as prison continues to be "big business" we will not have a chance at real reform.
Big business is an understatement. Did you see the movie on CNN last night "American Jail". It was mainly geared toward poor minorities in prisons, but also talked about how much money other industries make due to the prison population and how prisoners are basically slaves because of what the governments pay them and in some states, they get paid $0 so they are indeed slaves. Sick.

It's not even the private prisons that are making the bulk of the money either, it's everything else. Food, equipment, furniture, etc.

Also, and I didn't know this, some prisons make things for some public corporations. I have no idea how that is legal. Like Starbucks.
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Old 07-02-2018, 08:47 AM
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Sessions on one side, Kushner on the other. It will be interesting.
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Old 07-03-2018, 10:10 AM
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Given the penchant for brutality on the Administration's part, and the fact that those very money-making entities are strong donators to that same administration, I doubt anything much will actually happen.
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:55 PM
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Here’s a little more information about where reform efforts stand now.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/opi...l-13053978.php

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Rumors have started circulating that some legislators are open to combining*FIRST STEP with the SRCA, creating a “best of both worlds” package that would both check the growth of mass incarceration and help people already behind bars.
One thing stands in the way: a cadre of far-right senators have refused to endorse even moderate sentencing reform. Chief among them: Republican Sen. Tom Cotton, R-Ark., and Texas’ Cruz. Cruz was 1 of*just 5 votes*against Grassley’s bipartisan bill*this past February. He offered an amendment to gut the bill,*was voted down, and refused to support the final package.
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Old 07-26-2018, 10:03 AM
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Default More about jail reform but the issue is the same

The obstacle to reform is that the public just has no idea or outright backwards ideas of how things work.

http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.co...at-hinder.html

The two problems the blogger keeps running into are
1. People believe the crime rate is high and increasing
2. People don't know and will even refuse to believe that two thirds or three quarters of the people in jail are legally innocent pre-trial detainees.
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Old 08-01-2018, 12:26 PM
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Also from the wonderful Grits For Breakfast, http://thehill.com/homenews/house/39...on-reform-bill talks about the polling on the First Step Act. The public likes it, Republicans like it, Democrats like it, near as I can tell the people who don't like it are the ones who think it doesn't go far enough.
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Old 08-01-2018, 04:35 PM
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Also from the wonderful Grits For Breakfast, http://thehill.com/homenews/house/39...on-reform-bill talks about the polling on the First Step Act. The public likes it, Republicans like it, Democrats like it, near as I can tell the people who don't like it are the ones who think it doesn't go far enough.
Yes this is a big problem. Dick Durbin (my senator) and Chuck Grassley, the Iowa Republican Senator, for once are in agreement on wanting bi-partisan prison reform. The big problem however, is that they both think that the Current bill in Senate, which has already passed the house and from what I recall hearing McConnell won't even put forth for a vote, doesn't go far enough for prison reform. This is ridiculous. So basically, nothing is going to happen. These idiots!! They need to understand that some progress is better than no progress. Baby steps. Take some f'ing baby steps and maybe over time you can get more done. But there are so many people in there that have no business being in there. It's not just about drug people. Plenty of them belong in there. Plenty of them need rehab as opposed to prison. They're doing more drugs in there because no one is doing anything about it and there's no policing of the drugs. But there are white collar guys in there, getting free medical care, teaching classes, watching tv, reading books, exercising, not bothering anyone, and in some cases out in the communities with teaching programs or driving. Where really is the punishment? You're punishing the families, but sometimes the punishment has occurred long ago.

A Dr, loses his license - that is plenty punishment. Going to prison doesn't punish him further.
A CPA loses his license - can't be an accountant. Bam, there's his livelihood.
Disbar an attorney - again, can't practice law or the career they had, so then what. That's the punishment.
An SEC violation - can't trade, or work in securities ever again.
Computer violation - same deal, banned from doing anything in AI, programming, security, etc.

Throwing these guys in prison for a few months or years solves nothing. Keeping them out of prison, forcing them to retrain and try to get a job is going to be a bigger punishment for them than tax dollars supporting them at $100/day. The punishment was when the person lost their license preventing them from ever being able to participate in that behavior ever again. If they were out of prison at least they could attempt to be productive members of society and pay something back to society. Being in prison resolves none of that. OK, well maybe a small amount as my husband is a GED tutor and they recently changed the program and they've had a lot more students pass the GED program since they changed the program and got new tutors than all of last year. So that's something. (No it's not because of him, although he might think otherwise, ) But seriously, let these people do something productive, even if community service where we're paying for them, instead of our tax dollars. That would be big punishment financially for us, but at least they would be home and our problem and no traveling to these god forsaken places.
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Old 08-01-2018, 04:46 PM
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But there are white collar guys in there, getting free medical care, teaching classes, watching tv, reading books, exercising, not bothering anyone, and in some cases out in the communities with teaching programs or driving. Where really is the punishment? You're punishing the families, but sometimes the punishment has occurred long ago.

A Dr, loses his license - that is plenty punishment. Going to prison doesn't punish him further.
A CPA loses his license - can't be an accountant. Bam, there's his livelihood.
Disbar an attorney - again, can't practice law or the career they had, so then what. That's the punishment.
An SEC violation - can't trade, or work in securities ever again.
Computer violation - same deal, banned from doing anything in AI, programming, security, etc.
Being perfectly honest, I think this is another public bias, though. I cringe every time I hear someone try to divide crimes into "white collar" and...what? Violent? Drug? Property? None of those categories, including so-called white collar are victimless.

So Joe who works full time at just a little over min wage has some bad luck. His kid gets really sick and the bills are piling up, time off work is starting to threaten his security with his employer. He loses his focus, makes a desperate and bad decision, takes the gun from his brother's house to hold up a liquor store. We all agree that that is a bad idea punishable by a felony conviction. So Joe serves three years, loses his job (aka his career), and has to go find work with a violent felony on his record.

Then there's Janice. She's got 15 years in real estate. She fudged her books the last five years and charged illegal fees to clients who didn't know better. Why? So maybe she could retire a little early. $27k in, she gets busted. We all agree this is a bad idea punishable by felony conviction. She can't work in real estate again, but she's certainly not committed a victimless crime. She's shorted her tax payments, she's stolen money from her clients. Why is losing her career..aka her job, as good as sending Joe to prison?

I get it, we don't need to be incarcerating people on taxpayer dollars who aren't a direct threat to society and who don't benefit from the harsh "reform" of incarceration. So which person above should go to prison?


Also, I think we need to go back and review what prison in the US is billed as: a loss of freedom for the inmate and in contemporary models that still lag behind other first-world models, reform and rehabilitation. So in both cases above, loss of freedom is the punishment. The fallout after is part and parcel to having lost your freedom by going to prison. And on reform and rehab-- well, we fail most all inmates there so your guess is as good as mine.

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Old 08-01-2018, 05:42 PM
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the First Step Act. The public likes it, Republicans like it, Democrats like it, near as I can tell the people who don't like it are the ones who think it doesn't go far enough.
It's not just that it doesn't go far enough, but there is real concern that if this watered-down legislation passes, it will kill momentum for any serious reform for many years to come.

The ACLU published a very well-reasoned memorandum as to why the First Step Act is a step in the wrong direction:

https://www.aclu.org/letter/aclu-vot...first-step-act

I tend to agree with the ACLU here. It might be better to wait until after the midterms, when a much more plight-of-prisoners-friendly Congress gets seated. Criminal justice reform is going to be on the front burner until action is taken. It would be a shame if this current bill is all that ends up getting passed for the next many years to come before Congress ever revisits the issue again.
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Old 08-01-2018, 06:15 PM
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It's not just that it doesn't go far enough, but there is real concern that if this watered-down legislation passes, it will kill momentum for any serious reform for many years to come.

The ACLU published a very well-reasoned memorandum as to why the First Step Act is a step in the wrong direction:

https://www.aclu.org/letter/aclu-vot...first-step-act

I tend to agree with the ACLU here. It might be better to wait until after the midterms, when a much more plight-of-prisoners-friendly Congress gets seated. Criminal justice reform is going to be on the front burner until action is taken. It would be a shame if this current bill is all that ends up getting passed for the next many years to come before Congress ever revisits the issue again.
The problem with this is that the bill already passed the house, and the house is where the Dems are most likely to gain the most seats. It is unlikely the Dems will gain control of the Senate. For once there is bi-partisan support for prison reform, and ironically it is being pushed big by Jared Kushner, however, on the other end, you have that moron Sessions who is on the far right of it. Like anything, you can't make everyone happy, but they have to do something.

The other issue that is going to be a real big problem down the line and that the BOP really needs to get their shit together and should get ahead of it before they don't know what to do is technology and how to handle it and provide some sort of training. It isn't going to be long before cell phones that can only text and don't have cameras are going to be obsolete. What then are they going to do in the HWHs for that requirement? Soon enough landlines are going to be obsolete. Another requirement for HWH/HC. I have heard a myriad of reasons why they don't want to provide internet access for low risk criminals, but there are ways to block different sites and what not and they need to figure it out and upgrade everything while they can. They can cut a lot of fat everywhere and the redundancy.
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Old 08-01-2018, 06:34 PM
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Being perfectly honest, I think this is another public bias, though. I cringe every time I hear someone try to divide crimes into "white collar" and...what? Violent? Drug? Property? None of those categories, including so-called white collar are victimless.

So Joe who works full time at just a little over min wage has some bad luck. His kid gets really sick and the bills are piling up, time off work is starting to threaten his security with his employer. He loses his focus, makes a desperate and bad decision, takes the gun from his brother's house to hold up a liquor store. We all agree that that is a bad idea punishable by a felony conviction. So Joe serves three years, loses his job (aka his career), and has to go find work with a violent felony on his record.

Then there's Janice. She's got 15 years in real estate. She fudged her books the last five years and charged illegal fees to clients who didn't know better. Why? So maybe she could retire a little early. $27k in, she gets busted. We all agree this is a bad idea punishable by felony conviction. She can't work in real estate again, but she's certainly not committed a victimless crime. She's shorted her tax payments, she's stolen money from her clients. Why is losing her career..aka her job, as good as sending Joe to prison?

I get it, we don't need to be incarcerating people on taxpayer dollars who aren't a direct threat to society and who don't benefit from the harsh "reform" of incarceration. So which person above should go to prison?


Also, I think we need to go back and review what prison in the US is billed as: a loss of freedom for the inmate and in contemporary models that still lag behind other first-world models, reform and rehabilitation. So in both cases above, loss of freedom is the punishment. The fallout after is part and parcel to having lost your freedom by going to prison. And on reform and rehab-- well, we fail most all inmates there so your guess is as good as mine.
The problem with these two scenarios is that one is considered a violent crime because it dealt with a gun. The other one for 27k if a federal felony, would not result in prison. It would have to be a larger amount, and even so, a real estate agent is not the same type of specialty as a lawyer, cpa or dr where the person spent years (I shouldn't even lop CPA in there) beyond college. My husband can come out and get a real estate brokerage license. He cannot come out and become a lawyer or doctor or cpa. It's a big diference. The sentencing is not about losing freedom as you can read the transcripts, and sentencing memorandums, it is about punishment. Over and over they say the punishment. My husband btw the way, hasn't once complained about his loss of freedom. He cared most about the loss of the career that he had for 30+ years that he worked his ass off for and studied for and made one stupid mistake that cost him everything. He is accountable for his actions and the experience has been very humbling for him the whole prison thing, as we like to say, "you can't make this shit up". I can't speak for the higher level prisons one way or the other, but the camps, just a complete waste of resources.

They had a shakedown in his dorm over the weekend because they saw a bag come over the fence. So they rushed over to this dorm, and pulled the fire alarm to get the inmates to come out. So you know what the CO's find? Not the drugs that were thrown over. The find 52 eggs in someone's room and 27 - 12 packs of diet coke!! 354 cans of diet coke!! Wtf? They make one guy crack all the eggs in front of everyone else, and two of the guys who's pop it is load it into the truck. These guys all got shots. How they have room for that much pop is beyond me, and of course now all 4 of the guys in the room with the pop are claiming some of it is theirs, so obviously there was some sort of payoff so that the shots weren't higher but can the ridiculous get more ridiculous? And they can't find the drugs that came over the fence!!

Now he emails me telling me, there's another shakedown just on his floor (same dorm), so they did the count in the hallfway downstairs and because he's carrying his bag from his class at 3pm he can't go to dinner because they don't allow you into dinner with the bag and a few months ago he left his bag on a shelf and it got stolen, so he is not taking that chance again. Stupid.

All they need to do is stick a camera where they know the bags are being thrown, or plant a guy out there. This happens every night! Or better yet, put a guy in undercover. Put a Judge and a prosecutor in for 30 days for training so they see what a total waste this is.

Punishment? My husband already had his punishment. Now he's just laughing at how stupid this whole thing is. He's not exactly suffering in the context they wanted him to suffer. He's not bored, he's able to exercise when he wants for the most part, he reads constantly, he's writing, he teaches a class, he takes classes, they get to see movies, he watches news and sports, they have parties, etc. He can gamble if he wants - he does't. It's a lot of juvenile petty rules, but other than that, the camp is really just a bad overnight camp.
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Old 08-01-2018, 07:04 PM
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Years and years ago FCI McLean's warden Dennis Luther said that camps made no sense.

I am glad to see some awareness growing in Congress and among the public that we need to provide prisoners more opportunities. A camp whose only vocational program has two openings for 300 inmates is a waste of my money.
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Old 08-01-2018, 07:09 PM
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"A Dr, loses his license - that is plenty punishment. Going to prison doesn't punish him further."

EVERY female physician I did federal time with was able to re-gain their license.

And I l00% disagree; just because one has an advanced degree doesn't mean they should get to skip prison. That is as unrealistic as saying is somebody can pay the stolen money back they should get to skip prison.

Or if they can pay a huge fine and skip prison. In other words right back to the days when only poor, under educated people did time.

In fact, many judges - mine included - believed in the theory of a higher standard. Somebody desperate for money has more of a reason to steal and regardless of how it is phrased a "white collar" crime is usually a theft of some sort.

Somebody with an advanced degree usually only had greed to blame for their crime of stealing. And trust me? I did time with many women with very advanced degrees. Physicians, lawyers, PharmDs, veterinarians. And each was as guilty as I was and like me each earned their time in prison.
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Old 08-01-2018, 07:12 PM
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I'm pretty much with safran on this - losing your license only means you can't commit that particular field fo crime again. However, it doesn't keep you from recreating it in a new form or venue. Granted, prison isn't much of a place to help you change your thinking, but , as with safran ^^, she's totally determined never ever to go back to prison, because it sucked so much.
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Old 08-01-2018, 07:25 PM
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I personally believe there needs to be by weekly therapy for those in prison:cognitive behavior therapy to rework thinking patterns as well as trauma therapy.

There should alao be real incentives for sentence reduction. Real educational classes and skill training. Here a lot of the training has not kept up with technology. Financial literacy classes.

All inmates should have a job and be productive in some way. They should also have gardens and use those foods to feed inmates real food.

Then of course real drug programs. I personally prefer the shot that stops the nerve receptors. Vivitrol? I believe I stwad of getting ppl hooked on another drug.

Lastly, meditation, art, music.. soothing self awareness classes.

All this costs money and a ton of qualified staff. Just my observations at this point.
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Old 08-01-2018, 07:57 PM
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The problem with this is that the bill already passed the house, and the house is where the Dems are most likely to gain the most seats. It is unlikely the Dems will gain control of the Senate. For once there is bi-partisan support for prison reform, and ironically it is being pushed big by Jared Kushner, however, on the other end, you have that moron Sessions who is on the far right of it. Like anything, you can't make everyone happy, but they have to do something.
Something will be done. If not this current bill, action on a more comprehensive bill will pass both chambers within the next year.

The nice thing about the Dems re-taking the House is that they'll no longer need to compromise with the Republicans to move legislation. This means they won't have to settle for watered-down bills. Senator Grassley has already said he can get a handful of Republicans to pass ANY criminal justice reform bill in the Senate. We already know most of the Dems will vote for it, so why waste the opportunity on this current bill?

The biggest problem with the First Step Act is that most of its provisions have no teeth. Mandates over offering more programming or halfway house placements but no funding to carry it out. In short, empty promises. About the only worthwhile thing in the bill is the extra days of good-time credits, and I know those currently serving time in federal prisons would love to at least have that, and they still would in a more comprehensive bill.

The only reason not to wait is worries that Trump might veto a more comprehensive bill. But with Kushner whispering in his ear, and him being at odds with Sessions, I'm thinking Trump will be hard-pressed not to sign any bill that reaches his desk.
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Old 08-01-2018, 08:02 PM
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Punishment? My husband already had his punishment. Now he's just laughing at how stupid this whole thing is. He's not exactly suffering in the context they wanted him to suffer. He's not bored, he's able to exercise when he wants for the most part, he reads constantly, he's writing, he teaches a class, he takes classes, they get to see movies, he watches news and sports, they have parties, etc. He can gamble if he wants - he does't. It's a lot of juvenile petty rules, but other than that, the camp is really just a bad overnight camp.
You've still missed the point-- prison is about loss of freedom, not further punitive measures like the petty rules or suffering. So if you take away the actual sentence, you've taken away the whole point of prison. All the other crap like scanners and plexiglass and barbed wire, that's not because of their crime. That's because of people who continue to be knuckleheads once inside. The removal from society and loss of freedom is the sum of their sentence.

You hold a very classist view. So let me put a positive spin on what your husband finds laughable and stupid--

Men like him are tutoring men like my husband who grew up in gang-riddled, impoverished neighborhoods. They're able to take the time to show him he's smarter than he was told and has more potential than gang banging. He's in college because of a white collar criminal who, without the requirement to do time, wouldn't have stopped in his 'hood to get change for a cab let alone stayed long enough to lift someone like him out of their circumstances.

I don't find that laughable or stupid. I'm eternally grateful for the equalizer that is prison because it made those white collar criminals and my thug husband work together to be human. Elitism stinks whether it's on the streets or behind bars.

$27k was an arbitrary number, you're splitting hairs to show that you know more about white collar crime than I do. Congrats. You win.
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Old 08-01-2018, 08:25 PM
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All this costs money and a ton of qualified staff.

It costs money up front. Not doing it costs more money later.
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Old 08-01-2018, 08:39 PM
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It costs money up front. Not doing it costs more money later.
I agree 100%. But, the prison industry would suffer long term.

Also, many do not believe their tax dollars should be spent in this manner bc they want punishment. Not understanding, in the long run, they are less safe.

It would take a whole revamping of the system and years to see if it would work. People want immediate gratification and the news promotes dear open.

There are those who no matter what anyone tries nothing will help. But if only 25% return to prison or is a huge win for all of society.

All.i know is young kids making a name for them inside so outside they have a bigger name helps no one. Having people remain illiterate, unskilled, with limited coping strategies helps no one.

Regardless if the from is violent or non violent, there is a thought pattern in each person that if different. We all have this darker side to our beingness, but in some it is brought out more. Many do not fear punishment and repercussions.

Those who don't want to return find the struggle reacclimate or make something of themselves too difficult of a mountain to climb.

There is so much to unpack. The only common denominator with all involved is that whatever they did they did it because they believed they would feel better doing it or having it.
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Old 08-01-2018, 08:49 PM
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I Can only speak from our point of view and a state gacilitt, but he hates 99.9% of it. He hates being away. He hates the same thing day in and day out. He hates the violating searches, gross food, and selfish people he lives with who don't clean or shower or make life harder for everyone else.

Do I think he needed this? Yes I do. As much as I hated the thought of this happening, I am choosing to see some positives of it. He should be in more of camp setting, but our state got rid of those.

I have his choices of programs is so limited. Won't do anything until it is closer to the end. He just works and they get their money out of him.

When his mom almost died, his counselor told him to speak to the priest. There is no counseling. Now the priest is gone. The one thing that would be the biggest benefit for him would have been therapy. Down the line he will be eligible for a program and hopefully it addresses this need. I'm not holding my breath. If we must, we do it on his own when he comes home.
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Old 08-01-2018, 10:56 PM
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You've still missed the point-- prison is about loss of freedom, not further punitive measures like the petty rules or suffering. So if you take away the actual sentence, you've taken away the whole point of prison. All the other crap like scanners and plexiglass and barbed wire, that's not because of their crime. That's because of people who continue to be knuckleheads once inside. The removal from society and loss of freedom is the sum of their sentence.

You hold a very classist view. So let me put a positive spin on what your husband finds laughable and stupid--

Men like him are tutoring men like my husband who grew up in gang-riddled, impoverished neighborhoods. They're able to take the time to show him he's smarter than he was told and has more potential than gang banging. He's in college because of a white collar criminal who, without the requirement to do time, wouldn't have stopped in his 'hood to get change for a cab let alone stayed long enough to lift someone like him out of their circumstances.

I don't find that laughable or stupid. I'm eternally grateful for the equalizer that is prison because it made those white collar criminals and my thug husband work together to be human. Elitism stinks whether it's on the streets or behind bars.

$27k was an arbitrary number, you're splitting hairs to show that you know more about white collar crime than I do. Congrats. You win.
First of all, it is not a contest. Second of all, you know nothing about me, my husband, or his crime, so you should not make assumptions about something you know nothing about. My husband did not steal money, nor did he gain anything financially from the crime that he took his plea for. You also know nothing about my background or his, so do not make assumptions on what you know nothing about.

The point of prison is not about the loss of freedom, it is about punishment, pure and simple. If they wanted to punish them, then they should put them in a higher level facility. That would have been horrendous. That would be horrendous for anyone. Put them in with murderers, rapists, etc. But that is not how the prison system works. There is no barbed wire where he is, there are no metal detectors, there are no glass partitions. I drive up, I walk in, give my ID to a counter, his name is called and in he walks.

Now let me tell you something about him, well before he went to prison he was tutoring and working with people in gang ridden areas, those in poor uneducated areas. Why? Because that is what he grew up in. It blows me away when I see these young guys in there for drug related crimes and some of the crap they're pulling in there, or their hustles, and how smart they are and if they only applied that to a legitimate business how successful they would be. Many of the guys in the GED program who are required to take the classes, come in and put their heads down. The are required to be there, but not required to participate. They get "credit" for coming to the class. It is ridiculous. Some really want to get it, some don't give a crap because they have their "business" on the outside that they're going right back to once they get out.

I am glad your husband is getting educated in there, but prison or not, outside of the GED classes, the groups do not mix, which is pretty sad. My husband is not allowed to go in the "African American tv room", or the "Hispanic tv room", or the and yes, this is legitimate, "the white supremacist tv room" (well yes, he can go in it, but we're not white supremacists"). So as much as it would be nice if people mixed regardless of whether they're white collar, gang bangers, or drug felons, they're no different in there, than they are on the outside except for the forced time in their classes. Sad, but true.

And lastly, one thing you are really missing here, and this is the point..it doesn't matter if my husband or yours has been in prison or not, at the end of the day, whether my husband is a white collar felon or not, because he is no different than your husband when he walks out of there because guess what? They're both felons. So while yes, my husband has his college degree and his advanced/specialized degree, he is barred from ever doing that again, so he can not commit his crime again. EVER. PERIOD. So what he did for 30+ years he has to start over, just like your guy when he gets out and my husband besides having a huge debt from his restitution, does not have a pot to piss in. So no, we are neither classist, or elitist!
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