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  #1  
Old 09-13-2005, 06:02 AM
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Default Guardian:Race not an issue in Katrina disaster, says Bush

Speaking in New Orleans, Mr Bush attempted to duck questions about the resignation. "I have been working," he told reporters. "I can't comment on something that you may know more about than I do." On his first trip to the region after the hurricane, Mr Bush had told Mr Brown, "Brownie, you're dong a heck of a job." But on Friday, Mr Brown was abruptly called back to Washington DC and operations in the Gulf coast were handed to Vice-Admiral Thad Allen.

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Old 09-13-2005, 06:08 AM
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Old 09-15-2005, 06:49 PM
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The storm didn't discriminate...that is right....but our government did.
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Old 09-15-2005, 07:05 PM
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My honest opinion...it wasn't primarily racially motivated in the traditional sense but...
....it was because the majority of people ignored were poor and black that it took so long for people in government to be mobilised. Our current adminstration clearly cares orders of magnitude more about the rich than the poor and disadvantaged.
I cannot understand how anyone who is poor (of any race) doesn't go out and vote for the other side in an election. How could they voye for B**H and his ilk?
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Old 09-17-2005, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by titantoo
My honest opinion...it wasn't primarily racially motivated in the traditional sense but...
....it was because the majority of people ignored were poor and black that it took so long for people in government to be mobilised. Our current adminstration clearly cares orders of magnitude more about the rich than the poor and disadvantaged.
I cannot understand how anyone who is poor (of any race) doesn't go out and vote for the other side in an election. How could they voye for B**H and his ilk?
Welll when they lock up all the Black men and they lose their right to vote, that kind throws things in their favor now, doesn't it? Yes it is a class issue!!!! I agree with you here.
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Old 09-17-2005, 12:54 PM
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People fleeing New Orleans were stopped on the bridge over the Mississippi by the Sheriff of Gretna, Lousiana. The Sheriff had dogs and machine guns. When some of the evacuees approached the police and asked why they were being stopped, they were told, "that the West Bank was not going to become New Orleans and there would be no Superdomes in their City."

Of course, race had nothing to do with it.

You can read more about the incident here: http://washtimes.com/upi/20050908-112433-4907r.htm
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Old 09-17-2005, 01:11 PM
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Yes...I was aware of the bridge incident...heard a white witness who was poor crying about the reception (on NPR).
It is in that sense that I mean it wasnt exactly racial in the 50s 60s sense.
Being white and poor didn't help.
But it was a race issue in the sense that most of the poor people involved were indeed black!
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Old 09-18-2005, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by titantoo
My honest opinion...it wasn't primarily racially motivated in the traditional sense but...
....it was because the majority of people ignored were poor and black that it took so long for people in government to be mobilised. Our current adminstration clearly cares orders of magnitude more about the rich than the poor and disadvantaged.
I cannot understand how anyone who is poor (of any race) doesn't go out and vote for the other side in an election. How could they voye for B**H and his ilk?
You mean like the black democrat Mayor and the Governor? I guess they get a pass for not having any plan in place (nor using any of the school buses, etc.. etc) but the feds and Bush are then tasked with covering that end, and then taking the blame for it. I've heard Bush apologize but I don't recall hearing Nagin or the Governor. I guess I could have missed it... But, I would be surprised if it happened.

As for the poor not voting, I think you are mistaken. One far-left site states that it was the poor that turned out in record numbers to get Bush re-elected, though they love to twist things up and misquote people to try and give the impression that Bush & Chaney laugh at them afterwards...

Did it ever occur to you that more and more of the poor and the minorities are not falling for the hollow promises that the left have used for quite some time to get their votes? Voters are getting smarter and believing less of the rantings and pandering of the "limousine liberals" who are just as rich as Bush and the others..
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Old 09-18-2005, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by MiaBellaAngela
Welll when they lock up all the Black men and they lose their right to vote, that kind throws things in their favor now, doesn't it? Yes it is a class issue!!!! I agree with you here.
Why were they locked up? Because they were black or because they committed crimes? Are you saying there are no white men that have been locked up because they committed felonies and have lost the right to vote?

No, I am one that has lost the right to vote and I am not black. You break the law and you are stealing from yourself, no matter your color. You lose the right to have firearms and you lose the right to vote.

One other thing to keep in mind is that if you get out and stay out of trouble for some time many states are restoring the right to vote, but you have to stay out of trouble and want that right to get it.
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Old 09-18-2005, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by titantoo
I cannot understand how anyone who is poor (of any race) doesn't go out and vote for the other side in an election. How could they voye for B**H and his ilk?
I'm from Mississippi - one of the poorest states in our country and one with a very large percentage of black residents. Bush carried Mississippi in the last two elections. Personally, if all the "other side" has to offer is what we had before (or his wife!) - NO THANK YOU! And I say this as an idependent voter - not republican (JMO). But we are not here to discuss political preferences, are we?

So once again I'll say this - I don't understand how ANYONE can even attempt to turn this into a racial issue! EVERYONE of EVERY COLOR was ordered to leave New Orleans - the evcuation order was not delivered in secret by dark of night to the rich, white residents only for heaven's sake!
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Old 09-18-2005, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by jessnkat
I'm from Mississippi - one of the poorest states in our country and one with a very large percentage of black residents. Bush carried Mississippi in the last two elections. Personally, if all the "other side" has to offer is what we had before (or his wife!) - NO THANK YOU! And I say this as an idependent voter - not republican (JMO). But we are not here to discuss political preferences, are we?

So once again I'll say this - I don't understand how ANYONE can even attempt to turn this into a racial issue! EVERYONE of EVERY COLOR was ordered to leave New Orleans - the evcuation order was not delivered in secret by dark of night to the rich, white residents only for heaven's sake!
VERY WELL SAID!!!!!!!!! You took the words right out of my mouth. This was a hurricane not a dang election! If mother nature could vote she would win!! Everyone had the chance to get out but a lot decided to stay on their own free will! When will politics be left out of this and the rebuilding start???
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Old 09-18-2005, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fed-X
Why were they locked up? Because they were black or because they committed crimes? Are you saying there are no white men that have been locked up because they committed felonies and have lost the right to vote?
I am certainly glad this was said, because I was trying to figure out a way to say it earlier...Thanks David!


And I'm also with Kat..the evacuation order wasn't issued by secret code that only rich white people could understand. ALL were told. And I'm sorry, but if I had no transportation means to get out, I'd be sticking out my thumb or walking myself on down the road, getting as far away as I could.
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Old 09-18-2005, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fed-X
Why were they locked up? Because they were black or because they committed crimes? Are you saying there are no white men that have been locked up because they committed felonies and have lost the right to vote?

No, I am one that has lost the right to vote and I am not black. You break the law and you are stealing from yourself, no matter your color. You lose the right to have firearms and you lose the right to vote.

One other thing to keep in mind is that if you get out and stay out of trouble for some time many states are restoring the right to vote, but you have to stay out of trouble and want that right to get it.
They were locked up because they had to have a public defender and could not afford better legal counsel (PDs are good BUT overworked with too many cases and can't devote time). They were locked up b/c the crimes that many Black men are sentenced for carry stiffer sentences that white collar crime, which are carried out by mostly white men. There are many,many reasons.
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Old 09-18-2005, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandonsgirl
I am certainly glad this was said, because I was trying to figure out a way to say it earlier...Thanks David!


And I'm also with Kat..the evacuation order wasn't issued by secret code that only rich white people could understand. ALL were told. And I'm sorry, but if I had no transportation means to get out, I'd be sticking out my thumb or walking myself on down the road, getting as far away as I could.
Many poor people are elderly and not mobile. Also many have babies. It was the end of the month and they had no food and NO money. I certainly hope we don't start blaming the victims for FOLLOWING GOVERNMENT ORDERS to go the superdome.

It is easy for those of us who were not there to sit in judgement. We do not know what we would actually do until we are in those people's places. They need our support, not our blame.
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Old 09-18-2005, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaBellaAngela
They were locked up because they had to have a public defender and could not afford better legal counsel (PDs are good BUT overworked with too many cases and can't devote time). They were locked up b/c the crimes that many Black men are sentenced for carry stiffer sentences that white collar crime, which are carried out by mostly white men. There are many,many reasons.

I have to disagree. I know many men, white and otherwise, who are locked up also. Many had public defenders. Do you have statistics (hard, written statistics) that state that white coller crime is carried out by mostly white men, whereas other crimes are carried out by people of color? I'm just curious, because I've never seen any statistics that state this. I'm honestly interested in seeing some.
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Old 09-18-2005, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandonsgirl
I have to disagree. I know many men, white and otherwise, who are locked up also. Many had public defenders. Do you have statistics (hard, written statistics) that state that white coller crime is carried out by mostly white men, whereas other crimes are carried out by people of color? I'm just curious, because I've never seen any statistics that state this. I'm honestly interested in seeing some.
Yes white men are locked up but at a disproportionally lower rate than black men. This is common knowledge and you can easily find it on the net and doing a search for the information. Any further information you would like to find, you will have to do the research for. It is out there if you look.

I will save you some time
http://www.peace.ca/truthaboutblackcrime.htm
"Among men, blacks (28.5%) are about six times more likely than whites (4.4%)
to be admitted to prison during their life. "
http://www.davidson.edu/student/orga...ocus/russ.html
http://www.ideachannel.com/EconomicsAbstracts.htm
http://onepeoples.com/archives/scarcityblackmen.html
http://www.naacplansing.org/LansingN...tter200403.htm
www.eop.mu.edu/mcnair/1999/ArniceMcGruder/abstract.html


related info
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/1051717/posts
http://www.macalester.edu/courses/ec...nal_report.pdf

African-American men are disproportionally incarcerated. It is a fact of our criminal in-justice system.
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Old 09-18-2005, 05:37 PM
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African-American men are disproportionally incarcerated. It is a fact of our criminal in-justice system.

Absolutely correct! Same is true for Hispanics. It is what most people would call prejudice.

And although I am not a Republican it is not the Republican's per se that upset me its the current adminstration.
Everyone is entitled to their political opinions whether left-wing, right-wing or centre and I don't think worse of someone whose opinion is different from mine. Just as I do not think worse of people for being athiests, budists, hindus, moslems, jews or christians (strange that if religion is so important most people have the religion of thier parents....even stranger when you think how many peole are killed because or "religion"). Same for their sexual preference or colour of hair.

However, I don't think everyone is entitled to send the poor to war and not the rich, not provide decent health care and schools to the poor as well as the rich, treat offendors as not-really human, torture or incarcerate people without charging them and giving them fair representation, have a justice system that thrives on intimidation, execute murders etc
That is my opinion...and it is not a politcal opinion --- for me it is an ethical one.
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Last edited by titantoo; 09-18-2005 at 05:53 PM..
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Old 09-18-2005, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by titantoo
African-American men are disproportionally incarcerated. It is a fact of our criminal in-justice system.

Absolutely correct! Same is true for Hispanics. It is what most people would call prejudice.

And although I am not a Republican it is not the Republican's per se that upset me its the current adminstration.
Everyone is entitled to their political opinions whether left-wing, right-wing or centre and I don't think worse of someone whose opinion is different from mine. Just as I do not think worse of people for being athiests, budists, hindus, moslems, jews or christians (strange that if religion is so important most people have the religion of thier parents....even stranger when you think how many peole are killed because or "religion"). Same for their sexual preference or colour of hair.

However, I don't think everyone is entitled to send the poor to war and not the rich, not provide decent health care and schools to the poor as well as the rich, treat offendors as not-really human, torture or incarcerate people without charging them and giving them fair representation, have a justice system that thrives on intimidation, execute murders etc
That is my opinion...and it is not a politcal opinion --- for me it is an ethical one.
I feel the same way.
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Old 09-18-2005, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaBellaAngela
Many poor people are elderly and not mobile. Also many have babies. It was the end of the month and they had no food and NO money. I certainly hope we don't start blaming the victims for FOLLOWING GOVERNMENT ORDERS to go the superdome.

It is easy for those of us who were not there to sit in judgement. We do not know what we would actually do until we are in those people's places. They need our support, not our blame.

First - yes it is easy for those that were not there to sit in judgement. I might not live on the coast - never have and never will - but I do live in Mississippi and when Ivan came through my area a year ago it was just a Cat 1. Now after seeing the desctruction that Ivan did first hand, if I was told that a Cat 5 was on the way and I MIGHT be in it's path - I'd pack up and get the hell out of dodge! No need to tell me twice! I DON'T have to be in 'those people's places' to say that! My place was way too close as it was and Katrina was a Cat 3 when she arrived at my back door (and I mean that literally - since there was a tree on top of it right through my roof!)

Second, there were many, many more that could have left and choose not too than those that actually could not. I bet if the storm brewing up in the gulf right now were to follow the same path Katrina did (as Dennis followed Ivan's path), they'd find a way to get out now - end of the month or not (which is about the saddest excuse I've heard yet). And I believe the governments FIRST orders were to evacuate.

And Last - I think several of yall have gotten off topic here. This thread is about Hurricane Katrina not how many white men are locked up vs. how many black men are locked up.
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Last edited by jessnkat; 09-18-2005 at 11:47 PM..
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Old 09-18-2005, 11:54 PM
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I feel that race was a huge factor in this situation! Our administration is clearly out of order and I feel there needs to be a major apology to the citizens of N.O....I feel this goes to show just how bad race issues are and how they still exist. I feel Kanye West was right for what he said and I suppourt 100%. I BET IF FLORIDA AND THE THE PRESIDENT'S BROTHER (JEB) WENT UNDER WATER THE GOVNT WOULD RESPOND VERY PROMPT...OR IF THE HAMPTONS WENT UNDER WATER...THERE WOULD BE NO HESITATION!!! AGAIN...HATS OFF TO GEORGE W. BUSH
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Old 09-19-2005, 05:29 AM
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tbabys hope ... WELL SAID ..... i salute you !
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Old 09-19-2005, 02:09 PM
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Default Guardian Op-Ed: Please stop fetishising integration. Equality is what we really need

A decent job with a decent income is still the best path out of the crudest forms of racism and fundamentalism
The reason black people could not get out of New Orleans was not because they were separate but because they were unequal - the wealthier ones left. Equality of opportunity is the driving force behind integration, not the other way round, but their relationship is subtle and symbiotic, not crude and causal.

Full article in

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...573144,00.html
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Old 09-19-2005, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaBellaAngela
They were locked up because they had to have a public defender and could not afford better legal counsel (PDs are good BUT overworked with too many cases and can't devote time). They were locked up b/c the crimes that many Black men are sentenced for carry stiffer sentences that white collar crime, which are carried out by mostly white men. There are many,many reasons.
When I was locked up in "club fed" the vast majority of whites I was there with were not in for "white collared crime". There were a few but it was like maybe a 1/10th of 1 percent on the yard, and there were plenty of black men that were there also for what could be called "white collared crime". Most were in for dope and guns... Just like most everyone else of other races..

I also want to point out that I agree that most public defenders either don't give a damn or don't have the resources to represent their clients to the fullest; however I have seen them throw Black, Asian, White, Hispanic and everyone else down the tubes... You might get some that are racist, ADA's on vacation or what-not, however I don't really feel that is the issue here...

My opinion of course..


BTW... In case anyone is not sure what "White Collar Crime" really is...
It is meant to represent those who work in offices... Rather than Blue collar workers that do more manual labor. No relation to the color of anyone's skin..
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Old 09-19-2005, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaBellaAngela
Many poor people are elderly and not mobile. Also many have babies. It was the end of the month and they had no food and NO money. I certainly hope we don't start blaming the victims for FOLLOWING GOVERNMENT ORDERS to go the superdome.

It is easy for those of us who were not there to sit in judgement. We do not know what we would actually do until we are in those people's places. They need our support, not our blame.
Yes, but the people who went to the Superdome were much less likely to die than those who stayed home.

BTW, it was local government orders to go to the superdome... Not State or Federal.

I definitely agree people need our support.
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Old 09-19-2005, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by titantoo
African-American men are disproportionally incarcerated. It is a fact of our criminal in-justice system.

Absolutely correct! Same is true for Hispanics. It is what most people would call prejudice.
Andy, so you are saying everyone in prison has been rail-roaded? Or that a good majority is? I can agree that being poor or growing up in poverty definitely lends itself braking the law (most of us like the nicer things - hey, it is one of the reasons I did time) in want of nicer things, however I don't think that the vast majority of non-whites are in jail because of a judicial system that is prejudice. I've been arrested and in court a lot of times in the past and rarely did I see (what I felt) a non-white get a lot more time for a similar crime than a white. Yes, it did happen but if you piss off the system they come for you. I saw two brothers I was in a dorm cell skate with 25 years on an agg rape charge while the little white boy they were fall partners with fight the charge and get 99 Agg here in Texas. Most people in the court were white... Guess what... The white boy got nailed because he pissed them off. I've been around the block and then some and while there is injustices all over the place, there is no broad prejudice conspiracy that I ever noticed. The Prosecutors and elected officials hate everyone that shows up.. Especially the ones that buck.

Quote:
And although I am not a Republican it is not the Republican's per se that upset me its the current adminstration.
Everyone is entitled to their political opinions whether left-wing, right-wing or centre and I don't think worse of someone whose opinion is different from mine. Just as I do not think worse of people for being athiests, budists, hindus, moslems, jews or christians (strange that if religion is so important most people have the religion of thier parents....even stranger when you think how many peole are killed because or "religion"). Same for their sexual preference or colour of hair.

However, I don't think everyone is entitled to send the poor to war and not the rich, not provide decent health care and schools to the poor as well as the rich, treat offendors as not-really human, torture or incarcerate people without charging them and giving them fair representation, have a justice system that thrives on intimidation, execute murders etc
That is my opinion...and it is not a politcal opinion --- for me it is an ethical one.
About the rich vs. poor going to war... I agree, the rich SHOULD be serving and probably are not compared to the middle class and poor; however when was there a draft? Did I miss something?? What has happened here is everyone for some time has thought of military service as a free ride.. There have been no wars so when this one hit they were like, damn! You mean I am going to have to do something for this money and G.I. Bills, etc? Uhm... YES.

I would also like to point out that most of the people in the U.S. military come from the Southern States.. Many people who enlist do so out of pride and LOVE for this country. I don't care what the color of ones skin is. Quite a few people who enlist in the military did so proudly and would die fighting for the ideals paid for in the blood of our fathers and grandfathers and great grandfathers. There is no draft so please... Let's not get into the propaganda of sending the poor to the war.

But, it is a little off topic anyways... But, so is free health care to everyone, and the rest of the topics you are posing above.. Can we focus on the topic?
 

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