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  #51  
Old 01-12-2017, 11:59 AM
WaitingWilkes WaitingWilkes is offline
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I'm so glad you didn't take it as me just being a bitch! [Which I am entirely capable of. ]
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Everybody needs a wake up call at some point even if it interrupts a beautiful dream.

I saw Love Story when it came out - with my mom! [Not a great idea.]
I always hated the movie's tag line: "Love means never having to say you're sorry." Even at 15yo I knew that was a load of crap.


I thought having a vasectomy meant never having to say you're sorry!


I used to think "let them go . . ." meant leave them. Now that I've lived a few dozen life-times, I think it's more "let go" as in detach . . . ?

Meaning "back off and give yourself and her/him room to breathe?
Yeah. Trying to work out relationship problems under our circumstances really sucks. But it's all we've got, so . . .


So sometimes it works, other times, it doesn't. So many couples broke up since she's been in. Guys visit for a while, then they just stop showing up. I saw that over ad over. I think women are more loyal to their incarcerated guys than men are to their incarcerated women. I'm not sure why.

All I can do is just what's in front of me right this second. I know if I try to predict the future, I'll go insane. [insaneR?]

I understand that completely. We pretty much gave up on a future a long time ago.


Sending you many, many hugs! You and I are pretty damned tough. We'll get thru this!


Thanks! Reciprocating with lots of hugs for so being supportive and understanding!

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  #52  
Old 01-12-2017, 02:45 PM
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She's miserable without Jessica. I don't want her to be more miserable than she has to be.
This sounds, at least on some level, a bit selfish of her. If she truly cared for the other person, she would be happy that her lover is on the outside.

Is she not miserable without you?

Between her trying to get you to circumvent the rules and her unhappiness that someone she claims to love got out, this whole thing sounds like it will not end well.

It might be time to establish some ground rules and some consequences for breaking them.
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  #53  
Old 01-12-2017, 04:04 PM
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This sounds, at least on some level, a bit selfish of her. If she truly cared for the other person, she would be happy that her lover is on the outside.


She's unhappy because she's missing her. Aside from that, I guess she's probably glad Jessica made parole.

Is she not miserable without you?


She tells me she still misses me and still wants to be with me. I believe her.

Between her trying to get you to circumvent the rules and her unhappiness that someone she claims to love got out, this whole thing sounds like it will not end well.


Our lives haven't gone well for 23 years. Problems are nothing new. The difference is, most of our problems have been caused by the system up to now. The system's making it very difficult to fix this one.

It might be time to establish some ground rules and some consequences for breaking them.



Rules are hard to enforce when there's really no way to know what's going on.
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Old 01-12-2017, 04:11 PM
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There is a way to know what is going on with her and its called honesty. The system is not to blame for her decieving you.
To be honest it seems like she has been making the most of her life in there she has had a lover and she has you at her beck and call.
You dont have those things, You are the one who is unhappy I would think about that!
maybe you like being a martyr as other have said but if not then maybe you want to stop being her doormat.
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  #55  
Old 01-12-2017, 08:04 PM
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Everybody needs a wake up call at some point even if it interrupts a beautiful dream.
Exactly.

I thought having a vasectomy meant never having to say you're sorry!
I spewed ice water all over my monitor at this - thanks! It needed a wash

Meaning "back off and give yourself and her/him room to breathe?
Exactly. Emphasis on US breathing for once.

Thanks! Reciprocating with lots of hugs for so being supportive and understanding!
How can I not? We're pretty much in the same place emotionally. 99% of the time, when I see something in someone else's actions, it means I need to take a good, hard look at what I'M doing. So I really do appreciate you sharing. It helps me see me.

If we can't be a good example, we can at least serve as a warning . . .
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  #56  
Old 01-12-2017, 09:04 PM
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This sounds, at least on some level, a bit selfish of her. If she truly cared for the other person, she would be happy that her lover is on the outside.


She's unhappy because she's missing her. Aside from that, I guess she's probably glad Jessica made parole.

Is she not miserable without you?


She tells me she still misses me and still wants to be with me. I believe her.

Between her trying to get you to circumvent the rules and her unhappiness that someone she claims to love got out, this whole thing sounds like it will not end well.


Our lives haven't gone well for 23 years. Problems are nothing new. The difference is, most of our problems have been caused by the system up to now. The system's making it very difficult to fix this one.

It might be time to establish some ground rules and some consequences for breaking them.



Rules are hard to enforce when there's really no way to know what's going on.
Ah yes that evil system.

I guess it is good you have the cause of most of your problems figured out.
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  #57  
Old 01-13-2017, 01:21 AM
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Dumb question here. Any chance a parole officer might approve an exception and allow Jessica to correspond with someone she depends on for emotional support and who won't try to pull her back into criminal activity? It's a dumb question for several reasons. The worst problem is that it misses the point. The point is how much this is hurting WaitingWilkes. I can't imagine what it's like.
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  #58  
Old 01-13-2017, 02:56 AM
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I might be off-base here... but... after seeing this thread repeatedly I can't help but wonder why YOU have to ADJUST to her relationship?
This somehow nags at me because you've stood by here for a long time and you are very sweet and understanding but are you really sure you can accept - after an adjusting-period - this 3-way relationship?
Do you have to?
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  #59  
Old 01-13-2017, 07:25 AM
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Wilkes...Have you been so focused/consumed on your wife's happiness for the last 23 years that you have forgotten your own sense of self?

HYPOTHETICALLY, if she were to die today, and you no longer had her to be the center of your world, would Jessica come to your wife's funeral and commiserate with you?
Would you remember who you are if your title weren't husband of...

You've clearly stated your wife has health limitations. You allowed them and her incarceration to assuage her hand in the decisions she made.

You refuse to acknowledge it--at least online. To do that, is not that same thing as saying you don't love her.
For example, I got yelled at about my husband's behavior from a family member and they called him every name in the book. I was furious.. When he called, I told who said what expecting him to be furious.
Instead, he didn't bat an eyelash and said, "So?" I was incredulous!. I asked how he could not be mad and he said, "How can I be mad about [family member name her] calling me an asshole, when I was exactly that for a lot of my life?"

She has to take ownership of her own behavior and you do too. Otherwise you are allowing her to continue to make excuses because you do provide any boundaries--scared of her mental health issues...

Good luck my friend. You have 2 choices. To continue to enable her bad decisions, or to cut her off jessica. Neither choice's fall out is palatable or pleasant but that is your choice. Otherwise you will willingly continue to allow yourself to be manipulated and have no say so in your own life.
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  #60  
Old 01-13-2017, 09:37 AM
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There is a way to know what is going on with her and its called honesty. The system is not to blame for her decieving you.

No, it's not. It does separate us and make resolving issues very difficult, though, as everyone here is experiencing.

To be honest it seems like she has been making the most of her life in there

I'm glad she's been able to live a bit better than she she might otherwise have been able to. She likes her job. Nobody hassles her, or she doesn't say anything about it if any does,

she has had a lover and she has you at her beck and call.


No more than any other PTO member who's close enough to visit often and has money to put on the book.

You dont have those things, You are the one who is unhappy I would think about that!

Tammy's the one who told me it was OK with her if I "dated" a long time ago. It's not like she ever expected me to be a monk/servant.

maybe you like being a martyr as other have said but if not then maybe you want to stop being her doormat.

I'm evaluating what I want/need/deserve out of life.
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  #61  
Old 01-13-2017, 11:20 AM
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> Neither choice's fall out is palatable or pleasant

Those situation are so hard because we all have a lifetime of training that we should "make the right decision". I was telling someone once I wanted to do the right thing about a friend in a bad patch. He said "Maybe there isn't a right thing". It had never occurred to me. Hearing it freed me from a lot of anxiety.
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  #62  
Old 01-13-2017, 12:34 PM
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> Neither choice's fall out is palatable or pleasant

Those situation are so hard because we all have a lifetime of training that we should "make the right decision". I was telling someone once I wanted to do the right thing about a friend in a bad patch. He said "Maybe there isn't a right thing". It had never occurred to me. Hearing it freed me from a lot of anxiety.
Choices are too often between what seem to be the lesser of evils.
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Old 01-13-2017, 12:49 PM
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> Neither choice's fall out is palatable or pleasant

Those situation are so hard because we all have a lifetime of training that we should "make the right decision". I was telling someone once I wanted to do the right thing about a friend in a bad patch. He said "Maybe there isn't a right thing". It had never occurred to me. Hearing it freed me from a lot of anxiety.
I reject this line of thinking. There is always a right thing. It isn't always easy. It isn't always pleasant. Sometimes it runs counter to what we want.

But, always, the right thing is among the choices.
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  #64  
Old 01-13-2017, 01:03 PM
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Wilkes...Have you been so focused/consumed on your wife's happiness for the last 23 years that you have forgotten your own sense of self?

Maybe I have, to some extent. Raising our daughter with Tammy only being able to play such a minor role in her life and the tension of my parenting style being different from hers took an awful lot of time and energy for a long time. Then she was out in her own and I had an empty house to bang around in.

HYPOTHETICALLY, if she were to die today, and you no longer had her to be the center of your world, would Jessica come to your wife's funeral and commiserate with you?

That’s a deep question. I’ve spoken with Jessica on the phone a few times and we message back and forth once in a while but I don’t really know her. I have an impression that she’s not very happy with her husband but her personal life isn’t my concern. I’m pretty sure she’d attend Tammy’s funeral if she were permitted to.

Would you remember who you are if your title weren't husband of...

I’ve been half a couple for most of my adult life. That’s a hard thing to think about differently.

You've clearly stated your wife has health limitations. You allowed them and her incarceration to assuage her hand in the decisions she made.

It was a diminished capacity situation even though the court chose to ignore that possibility at trial or on appeal.

You refuse to acknowledge it--at least online. To do that, is not that same thing as saying you don't love her.

She was partly responsible, something she admitted to and I accept. I’d feel a lot differently if she’d been screwing every Tom, Dick and Harry over some period of time. What she did was an aberration over a few weeks, at most.

For example, I got yelled at about my husband's behavior from a family member and they called him every name in the book. I was furious.. When he called, I told who said what expecting him to be furious. Instead, he didn't bat an eyelash and said, "So?" I was incredulous!. I asked how he could not be mad and he said, "How can I be mad about [family member name her] calling me an asshole, when I was exactly that for a lot of my life?"

That’s a painfully realistic viewpoint.

She has to take ownership of her own behavior and you do too. Otherwise you are allowing her to continue to make excuses because you do provide any boundaries--scared of her mental health issues...

Mental/psychological health treatment/support in prison is minimal, at best. I have to tread lightly. I don’t know how bad things might get for her.

Good luck my friend. You have 2 choices. To continue to enable her bad decisions, or to cut her off jessica. Neither choice's fall out is palatable or pleasant but that is your choice. Otherwise you will willingly continue to allow yourself to be manipulated and have no say so in your own life.

I’m waiting for Tammy to explain their relationship and how she sees it affecting ours. Making a decision about what to do about both of them separately ad as a “couple” might be easier once I understand that.

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Old 01-13-2017, 01:17 PM
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Dumb question here. Any chance a parole officer might approve an exception and allow Jessica to correspond with someone she depends on for emotional support and who won't try to pull her back into criminal activity?

I don't know why her parole forbids contact. Maybe it's a standard boilerplate prohibition. Maybe it's a temporary thing. I don't know any provisions of her parole or how long she'll be on it. Jessica has to know the details. I haven't asked her about it.

It's a dumb question for several reasons. The worst problem is that it misses the point. The point is how much this is hurting WaitingWilkes.

It's just the latest thing I have to deal with.

I can't imagine what it's like.

It's like drowning but never completely running out of air.
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Old 01-13-2017, 01:24 PM
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I might be off-base here... but... after seeing this thread repeatedly I can't help but wonder why YOU have to ADJUST to her relationship?
This somehow nags at me because you've stood by here for a long time and you are very sweet and understanding but are you really sure you can accept - after an adjusting-period - this 3-way relationship?
Do you have to?


I don't have to accept what was a 3-way relationship and might in some ways still be one. I'm asking myself: What will it cost me to accept it? What will it cost Tammy if I refuse to accept it and try to punish her in some way? Do I even have a moral right to punish her? We're not actually any worse off physically as a couple with or without a third party. It's not as if Tammy was running around on me when she could have been with me. There's no way she could be with me.
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Old 01-13-2017, 01:32 PM
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Ah yes that evil system. I guess it is good you have the cause of most of your problems figured out.

The system's not evil at all. My wife received a perfectly fair and just sentence. She might have served around 12 years if she'd killed someone. Instead, she's serving a life sentence without ever having physically injured anyone. The system's just fine and dandy, thank you. Please, your honor, may we have another 70 years to enjoy the state's hospitality?

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  #68  
Old 01-13-2017, 09:35 PM
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What will it cost Tammy if I refuse to accept it and try to punish her in some way?

Ya know, I think we both see this as us doing something "mean" to our spouses - when in all actuality, it's us doing something FOR ourselves . . . ?
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Old 01-13-2017, 11:42 PM
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I believe it's standard in probation/parole/supervised release to forbid contact with people who have criminal records. Some people have reported getting exceptions made, like when they hire on to a legal business run by an ex-con.

The theory is that "bad companions" risk pulling someone back into a life of crime. Jessica might be able to argue that Tammy is a good companion.

The word was "might", and before you take any action make sure you've heard from someone who actually knows how the system works.
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Old 01-14-2017, 09:52 AM
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What will it cost Tammy if I refuse to accept it and try to punish her in some way?

Ya know, I think we both see this as us doing something "mean" to our spouses - when in all actuality, it's us doing something FOR ourselves . . . ?
I'm struggling with the question of whether a fundamental change in our relationship would me me happier than it would make Tammy unhappier. Relationships are never simple.
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Old 01-14-2017, 10:00 AM
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[Minor activist;7596124] - I believe it's standard in probation/parole/supervised release to forbid contact with people who have criminal records. Some people have reported getting exceptions made, like when they hire on to a legal business run by an ex-con.

I guess the "one size fits all" approach is easier for the system to administer.

The theory is that "bad companions" risk pulling someone back into a life of crime. Jessica might be able to argue that Tammy is a good companion.

I don't know what sort of thing might come out if she has a sit-down with the person who makes those determinations. They weren't just good friends all that time. In fact, I'm kind of surprised they were able to be together like they were so long.

The word was "might", and before you take any action make sure you've heard from someone who actually knows how the system works.

I don't plan to take any action at all beyond facilitating communications. I don't want to blamed if something negative develops for Tammy or Jessica.

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Old 01-14-2017, 10:27 AM
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I was just reading through all this again, and it is just a really tough situation to be in. There is no wrong or right way to handle it, it's just painful. I hope you are feeling better today and I hope you are able to work through it with Tammy. It's easy for people to give advice or tell you what not to accept but they haven't been through it. I think once you are able to really talk and have an open and honest conversation you will feel so much better. Anyway just want you to know I am thinking of you and I am proud of you, you are handling all this very well. Very maturely. You are also an Amazing husband, loyal and protective, marriage is very difficult but times that level of difficulty by a million when your spouse is in prison. You both have managed to make it work for a very long time, I have confidence you will be able to continue to do so. *Big Hugs*
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Old 01-14-2017, 11:01 AM
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I was just reading through all this again, and it is just a really tough situation to be in. There is no wrong or right way to handle it, it's just painful.

I'm trying to figure out how we can both be happy.

I hope you are feeling better today and I hope you are able to work through it with Tammy.

I'm going to have The Talk with her tomorrow. I'm not going to leave early this time. She might but I won't. We need to get on with our lives, separately and/or together.

It's easy for people to give advice or tell you what not to accept but they haven't been through it.

I appreciate the time, effort and consideration people have extended. Some advice has been uncomfortable but we learn more when we're forced out of our comfort zone. Seeing the situation through others' eyes has helped put it in perspective.

I think once you are able to really talk and have an open and honest conversation you will feel so much better.

I hope we both feel better after talking things over tomorrow.

Anyway just want you to know I am thinking of you and I am proud of you, you are handling all this very well. Very maturely.

You have no idea how poorly I'm actually handling it. I'm just muddling through, hoping for the best. I'm pretty sure it's been harder on Tammy than it has been on me. I can yell, pound on the wall, hoist a few drinks, go for a fast drive, come to PTO and do lots of other things to relieve my stress. She can't. She just has to behave normally.

You are also an Amazing husband, loyal and protective, marriage is very difficult but times that level of difficulty by a million when your spouse is in prison.

It feels more than a million times harder lately. I keep asking myself if I'd have stayed with her in the beginning if I'd known how hard it was going to be. I'm not sure now that I would or could have. That's not a good feeling!

You both have managed to make it work for a very long time, I have confidence you will be able to continue to do so.

I hope so. It can't be a zero sum game. It isn't good for either of us right now but it has to be good for both of us if it's going to work.

*Big Hugs*

*Big Hugs back*

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  #74  
Old 01-14-2017, 12:17 PM
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Good luck with "The Talk" tomorrow.
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  #75  
Old 01-14-2017, 03:06 PM
WaitingWilkes WaitingWilkes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewTexGal View Post
Good luck with "The Talk" tomorrow.
Thanks. I'm already chewing Gaviscon tabs.
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