Welcome to the Prison Talk Online Community! Take a Minute and Sign Up Today!






Go Back   Prison Talk > FOR FAMILY & FRIENDS > Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgendered People in Prison
Register Entertainment FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgendered People in Prison For anyone that has a same sex partner, family member, friend or Pen Pal in prison that is Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, or Transgendered.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-27-2016, 12:52 PM
Minor activist Minor activist is offline
Registered User
 

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: WA USA
Posts: 1,632
Thanks: 1,034
Thanked 1,453 Times in 797 Posts
Default "Climbing Jell-O Mountain": understanding trans and intersex issues

"Climbing Jell-O Mountain" is a phrase I heard from a parent at a public meeting about school policies on trans kids. Without your bedrock ideas about what's male and female it's hard to get a foothold to understand things. There's hopeless confusion about "What are you really?". At least there was for me when a large number of trans people suddenly showed up in one of my hangouts.

I'm happy to share what I've learned since then. I can't say "expert" but it's enough to be useful.

I can also bring in a real expert if anyone would like that. She's a fighter for trans rights, but she fights by educating.

Questions?
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 08-27-2016, 04:03 PM
Minor activist Minor activist is offline
Registered User
 

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: WA USA
Posts: 1,632
Thanks: 1,034
Thanked 1,453 Times in 797 Posts
Default

In another thread, yourself wondered
"I would be interested in what the research suggests about people who don't fit the gender binary mold who face prison."

I can't post links, but maybe Google can get you to the UC Irvine paper mentioned here: "In 2007, a study from the University of California Irvine found that 59 percent of transgender women are sexually assaulted while in prison, whereas just 4 percent among the general population report being raped by guards or other prisoners."

I know there have been other studies but my friend the expert is the one to ask about those.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-27-2016, 05:35 PM
Firebrand's Avatar
Firebrand Firebrand is offline
Moderator On Leave

PTO Moderator 

 

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,071
Thanks: 1,912
Thanked 4,740 Times in 1,191 Posts
Default

They live a hard life in prison. Most of them are placed in Administrate Segregation and for good reason. Otherwise, they'd be raped or sold to the highest bidder. If it weren't for the mercy and intervention of the State's commitment to protect the weak/ defenseless they wouldn't make it out alive.
__________________
We're All In This Together

Last edited by Firebrand; 08-27-2016 at 05:44 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-27-2016, 06:03 PM
yourself yourself is offline
attorney
 

Join Date: May 2010
Location: around
Posts: 11,808
Thanks: 4,210
Thanked 21,282 Times in 7,463 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minor activist View Post
In another thread, yourself wondered
"I would be interested in what the research suggests about people who don't fit the gender binary mold who face prison."

I can't post links, but maybe Google can get you to the UC Irvine paper mentioned here: "In 2007, a study from the University of California Irvine found that 59 percent of transgender women are sexually assaulted while in prison, whereas just 4 percent among the general population report being raped by guards or other prisoners."

I know there have been other studies but my friend the expert is the one to ask about those.
by "gender binary" I was talking more of intersexed individuals. The trans discussion is a separate discussion, but the poster from Atlanta said that her academic interest is outside of the transsexual experience, though touches heavily upon it.

As you know, there are plenty of people born each year with undifferentiated genitalia. Since the trend is more and more to allow these people to develop naturally and choose, if necessary, at a later time in life rather than the old, "we'll just make the child female" modality of old, their experiences in the gender binary world would be very different than somebody assigned female at birth.

People outside the gender or sex norms are more apt to get assaulted in prison - well known fact. People who are marginalized have a higher rate of everything, and that's if you're gay, trans, developmentally disabled, a psych patient, or otherwise isolated.

Having a prosecutor who actually listens to the whole, "s/he will have a hard time in prison" and factor that into a plea deal or a judge with a sentence - essential. However, having undifferentiated genitalia in a system that defines male and female by penis/not a penis - totally different.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-28-2016, 02:52 AM
Minor activist Minor activist is offline
Registered User
 

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: WA USA
Posts: 1,632
Thanks: 1,034
Thanked 1,453 Times in 797 Posts
Default

You've clearly worked to educate yourself, yourself.

I'll try to get you information about intersex people in correctional institutions.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-28-2016, 03:16 AM
Zoe Brain Zoe Brain is offline
Registered User
 

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: ACT Australia
Posts: 32
Thanks: 4
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Default It varies.

Different jurisdictions have different policies. Not all the PRE act (prison rape elimination act) requirements have been met. There are some relatively enlightened and educated prison authorities, but most... aren't.

See DiMarco vs Wyoming Dept of Corrections which held that putting an Intersex prisoner in solitary confinement with no access to visitations, legal library, writing materials etc for 483 days just because of their ambiguous anatomy wasn't a violation of the 8th Amendment.

Many states follow this ruling.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-28-2016, 03:29 AM
Zoe Brain Zoe Brain is offline
Registered User
 

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: ACT Australia
Posts: 32
Thanks: 4
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Default

In the worst case, such Administrative Segregation is no defence against sexual assault. It just means the guards get to choose who the rapists are, and have an additional means of rewarding the favoured.

I can't post links, but this is a worldwide problem. See Inquest into a Death, Coroner J.Abernathy, 21 July 1999 where a prisoner on remand (before trial) was placed in "strict protection" on Dec 25 and 26 1998, but was so brutally raped that multiple prisoners complained and gave sworn evidence. On 27 Dec she suicided.

Prof Leonard of NY Law School has a collection of similar cases in the US.

But, as I said, other institutions, Federal, State, and County, can be quite different.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-28-2016, 12:33 PM
Minor activist Minor activist is offline
Registered User
 

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: WA USA
Posts: 1,632
Thanks: 1,034
Thanked 1,453 Times in 797 Posts
Default

Yourself's question may also include wondering what actually works for keeping the inmate and others safe. If anyone knows the research on that, it's Zoe. Zoe, are there any success stories out there of institutions that found kinda-sorta tolerable policies to follow?

There are people out there who would look out of place in the shower at either a men's or a women's institution. In severe cases Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia can leave a woman with a clitoris that would make any man say "I've got one of those too". I've seen a clinical picture.

If that's disturbing to think about, imagine what it's like to live with it.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-28-2016, 02:20 PM
yourself yourself is offline
attorney
 

Join Date: May 2010
Location: around
Posts: 11,808
Thanks: 4,210
Thanked 21,282 Times in 7,463 Posts
Default

most f2m transgendered individuals who have gone on hormones, and are therefor allowed to stay on hormones also have the same problem. Besides which, since they present as male in an all female environment, they are presumed to be lesbian looking for partners. This can be highly problematic and can also lead to sexual and other types of violence. Since a lot of f2m trans do not do "bottom" surgery in hopes that the reconstructive prowesses improve greatly in the coming years, they are classified as women in the gender binary of prisons.

Personally, I've noticed a remarkable reduction in violence and victimization in mental health patients when they are grouped together in one location where they get appropriate mental health treatment and the COs are specially trained for this particular population. As it works for one frequently victimized subset of the prison population, i.e. psych patients who cannot deal effectively with the general population without constant crisis of one type or another, I can't help but think it would work with other populations at extreme risk of victimization.

Most trans prisoners are isolated from others in the general population just by virtue of their rarity. Noticeably intersexed individuals are even rarer, presenting prisons with an almost insurmountable problem in terms of care and classification. As far as I can see, most prisons are completely incapable of dealing with such prisoners.

A certain percentage of people will serve time in prison. It stands to reason that that percentage will hold true across the board - cancer patients, left handed, blind, whatever. The greater the number of people in the regular world who have the same condition, the greater their representation in prison, the more likely that the prisons know how to appropriately classify and deal with these people.

Intersexed people - there's just not enough representation for prisons to adequately manage these people who start off from day one, from arrest and processing through the jails, as throwing the foundation of the gender binary on which they've built themselves into turmoil.

Not a good situation.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-28-2016, 02:42 PM
yourself yourself is offline
attorney
 

Join Date: May 2010
Location: around
Posts: 11,808
Thanks: 4,210
Thanked 21,282 Times in 7,463 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoe Brain View Post
In the worst case, such Administrative Segregation is no defence against sexual assault. It just means the guards get to choose who the rapists are, and have an additional means of rewarding the favoured.

I can't post links, but this is a worldwide problem. See Inquest into a Death, Coroner J.Abernathy, 21 July 1999 where a prisoner on remand (before trial) was placed in "strict protection" on Dec 25 and 26 1998, but was so brutally raped that multiple prisoners complained and gave sworn evidence. On 27 Dec she suicided.

Prof Leonard of NY Law School has a collection of similar cases in the US.

But, as I said, other institutions, Federal, State, and County, can be quite different.
The PA system of prisons in the first struggle between PA and Albany system proved that isolationism is pure torture, rendering many people too insane to function at the end of their sentence.

The PA Dutch/Quakers designed a system based on quiet contemplation of one's sins. Inmates were placed in a cell with a solid door with a slot for food and waste bucket removal. The only things they had were a bunk and a Bible. Through quiet contemplation and the reading of the Bible, inmates were supposed to self reform. When the door was opened at the end of their term, they were to be new, reformed men who would never commit another criminal act again.

This was opposed to the Albany System, which is what our prisons are based on today - inmates lived together, worked together, dined together, and had periods of recreation where they were allowed to talk with one and other and smoke. They were packed tightly together, so much so that a prisoner could not step forward unless the prisoners before and after him also stepped in the same way - lockstep is the term coined to describe it. They were not allowed to converse with guards, nor during movement, nor when instructed not to. Guards ordered inmates about using a series of commands established by knocking a billie club against the wall or the floor. The "hole" was reserved for inmates who could not comport themselves with this system, and used only as short term punishment (though frequently abused into years and years of hole time).

anyway, the point, the PA system drove a significant percentage of prisoners absolutely crazy. Recognizing this trend, advocates of the PA system changed things up, allowing inmates a trade, but only in their cell, only in isolation. Cobbler was popular. The idea was that perhaps an inmate needed to occupy himself with something other than his sin and the Bible, a good, productive pursuit would be the vacation that would keep these inmates sane. Didn't work. Or, didn't work enough.

Eventually, the PA system was abandoned as too expensive, and part of that expense was housing former prisoners in mental institutions for the rest of their lives.

Ad seg practices that follow too closely with the PA system are doomed to failure and to harming those stuck in them. Most people just cannot go for long stretched of time without talking with or seeing another human being and remain human in their minds. Ad seg was always supposed to be a short term response to a critical problem meant to allow the system to work out a better solution. Instead, we throw people away there. If you don't fit, or you're in danger of victimization, or you're depressed as hell and contemplating suicide - we throw your ass in Ad seg until YOU change. The system doesn't change, YOU must change without the help of anything except isolation.

WTF? seriously, WTF?

at present, if an intersexed individual finds him/herself caught in the criminal justice system, it's incumbent upon the system to adequately deal with that person in a way that doesn't cause too much harm. Knowing that prisons cannot deal with such people, judges have to deal with the loss of that person's sanity and humanity when contemplating a sentence that includes prison. Yes, society needs to be kept safe from an offender, but the dangers and hazards of prison so outstrip the needs of society when we're talking a low level felony, and even some non-violent mid level felonies that judges need to be encouraged to find alternatives to incarceration. Prosecutors need to do the same thing. Creative, responsive sentencing can actually save the taxpayer a ton of money to boot in costs associated with such people.

Instead, courts can't even deal effectively with trans peoples.

Though, it will be interesting to see how they deal with Caitlyn Jenner. Will celebrity be her saving grace in all of this, or will she experience the horrors of celebrity AND trans status in incarceration? Will she come out of any sort of incarceration with any sort of voice for the trans and intersexed prison populations should she experience any serious incarceration?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to yourself For This Useful Post:
Minor activist (08-29-2016)
  #11  
Old 08-28-2016, 03:25 PM
Keltria's Avatar
Keltria Keltria is offline
Super Duper Admin

PTO Diamond Award Staff Superstar Winner 

Donation Award 
 

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Johannesburg - South Africa
Posts: 15,488
Thanks: 5,878
Thanked 14,219 Times in 5,197 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoe Brain View Post
.

I can't post links, but this is a worldwide problem. See Inquest into a Death.
Contact a moderator and ask them to post the link for you. I am sure they will help. You need a 2 week, 20 post limit to post links.
__________________
Keltria

PTO Administrator

You know you are a successful woman when you build a good foundation with the bricks other people have thrown at you!

Please dont breed or buy while millions of unwanted pets die. Adopt a pet instead.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Keltria For This Useful Post:
patchouli (08-28-2016)
  #12  
Old 08-28-2016, 06:45 PM
CenTexLyn CenTexLyn is offline
Registered User
 

Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: TX-US
Posts: 14,835
Thanks: 644
Thanked 10,968 Times in 5,952 Posts
Default

The reality is that there are not that many true transsexuals even IN prison. There IS a current wave of violent males who choose to claim trans status since they are never getting out (because of their violent conduct, often against females) and want to be speshul snowflakes.

Those that can document they were under a doctor's care prior to entering prison are able to stay on medically managed hormones in many agencies (hell, Texas has allowed that for 30 years). We even had an FTT in this State that was given the option to go to a male facility, although they would not have been permitted in population. They had top surgery and had a judge sign off on the legal fiction that they were male. During their present sentence, they have since realized that they were, in fact, just a butch lesbian and stopped the testosterone.

It isn't that difficult to avoid the penitentiary, especially if you believe you are an at-risk individual. And fortunately, with the recent decision about schools, the nation may finally get to have legitimate discussions that recognize that males are male regardless of what hormones they voluntarily ingested. But since we know that very few seek surgery, there is absolutely zero reason to go changing things to allow a male to be housed with women.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CenTexLyn For This Useful Post:
GingerKittieKat (09-11-2016)
  #13  
Old 08-28-2016, 10:04 PM
Minor activist Minor activist is offline
Registered User
 

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: WA USA
Posts: 1,632
Thanks: 1,034
Thanked 1,453 Times in 797 Posts
Default

It's not so easy to avoid a jail, as opposed to a penitentiary. Police prejudice against trans people can put them there at any time.

People who get thrown out of their homes by their parents and are then the target of employment discrimination will be statistically over-represented in prison populations. Still a tiny minority, just as CenTexLyn said, but worthy of compassion and careful thought.

Yourself brought up the option of specialty subunits with staff trained in the specialty. I don't know how to fix the numbers problem. Take Washington State's women's prison, with a capacity of 738. Economically there would be a terrible problem justifying space and staff for the small fraction of women who are trans.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-29-2016, 04:52 AM
CenTexLyn CenTexLyn is offline
Registered User
 

Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: TX-US
Posts: 14,835
Thanks: 644
Thanked 10,968 Times in 5,952 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minor activist View Post
It's not so easy to avoid a jail, as opposed to a penitentiary. Police prejudice against trans people can put them there at any time.
It is NOT that difficult to follow the law.

Quote:
People who get thrown out of their homes by their parents and are then the target of employment discrimination will be statistically over-represented in prison populations. Still a tiny minority, just as CenTexLyn said, but worthy of compassion and careful thought.
Except those aren't the ones that continue to whine about custodial treatment and demand speshul snowflake treatment.

Quote:
Yourself brought up the option of specialty subunits with staff trained in the specialty. I don't know how to fix the numbers problem. Take Washington State's women's prison, with a capacity of 738. Economically there would be a terrible problem justifying space and staff for the small fraction of women who are trans.
No person born male and packing twig and berries should EVER be housed with actual women...and since the sterling examples of those who DID have surgery prior to being incarcerated tend to be people who committed crimes of violence against women (see serial killer "Donna" Perry), even they are not going to fare well in the general population.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-29-2016, 10:17 AM
yourself yourself is offline
attorney
 

Join Date: May 2010
Location: around
Posts: 11,808
Thanks: 4,210
Thanked 21,282 Times in 7,463 Posts
Default

there are nowhere near enough trans people to create a special unit all to themselves in any state. There's just too much need for the funds, staff, and space by other, much more populace units. Throw in prison overcrowding, and there are real problems.

Richard Speck could arguably be referred to as a pre-cursor to the people CenTex is talking about - guys who kill women who "change" though in his case it wasn't a state approved, medically monitored change done probably at the behest of his lover in Illinois. You can YouTube video of the man parading around with his breasts and panties in Joliet. The hormones he took to get his breasts and more feminine appearance were smuggled into the prison, and he willingly (gladly) took them for his lover. Granted, that was the '80's/early 90's, and was used as an example of how out of control the prisons in IL were = here's a mass murderer of women 30 years later entertaining his gay lover after obtaining lots and lots of female hormones over a long period of time. No real consideration was made to ask Speck if he wanted it (of course he wanted it - anything that would make him special, keep him with a male inmate who didn't mistreat him that badly was something he wanted), if he felt like a woman (of course he felt like a woman. Superficially, just because that was the role his lover wanted him to play). Now do you really think that if he could look the same and find his way into a women's prison he wouldn't have fought for it?

Speck received paltry little mental heath care and had very little insight into why he committed his crime, and why he hated women. The dynamics of the unisex environment dominated by people who KNOW you committed major crimes against women wasn't addressed, either.

We do not know enough about the interplay of gender identification and sexuality in a single sex environment to say what is a healthy response and what isn't. People are not getting the counseling they need to understand that sexuality is fluid especially in unisex environments, and that for some, gender identity might be fluid as well. And we especially do not know anywhere near enough about abnormal psychology and sexuality (I don't think anybody would argue that Speck and others who kill lots of women for sexually sadistic purposes is abnormal in his sexuality).

We do know that men who commit sexually sadistic crimes against women and children are especially vulnerable in the general population. The violence against such people, coupled with the libido of such people, coupled with any number of other factors not the least of which may be the desire to re-offend can be powerful motivators.

In this era of, "if you say you are, you are," such an assertion may be invalid in the prison setting, especially with people already demonstrating abnormal and sexually sadistic violent trends. true caution must be used when dealing with these people, especially if the only counseling they've had is based on gender identity disorder without full counseling to deal with the crimes and a much better understanding of gender and sexuality in the unisex population of long term sentenced prisoners.

Though I totally have to agree with CenTex - nobody with "block and tackle" should ever see admittance to a women's prison unless diagnosed with one of various intersexed conditions long before running afoul of the law.

I also have to take a middle ground on the whole, "how easy is it to stay out of prison" thing. If you're born in poverty, are of color, and are LGBTQ, you have a much higher chance of getting swept up in the criminal justice system. The school to prison pipeline is real. You have conduct that would have been dealt with by detention when I was a kid resulting in a date with a juvenile court judge these days. There was the judge in PA? NY? who got a kickback for every kid sentenced to juvenile prison who was recently sentenced to 30 years for destroying the lives of untold numbers of kids. You have children as young as 12 being sentenced as adults in states like WI. Zero tolerance laws and guns/drugs within x number of feet of schools means that a kid with a squirt gun or handing Midol to her classmate can result in a felony. An adult felony.

In the jurisdictions I worked - 17 was the age of consent in IL and 18 in IA (though you could get married with a judge's permission at 16). Prom couple go to Iowa, where the hotels and restaurants are better, and get lucky - crossing state lines for the purposes of sex, statutory rape. Then there are all the internet based crimes that we never had to worry about. Think on it - married 16 year old couple with a kid send erotic photos to each other. Somebody finds out. They aren't 18, so that's production, distribution, and possession of child porn.

There's a mine field out there of crimes that even sensible, wanting to be law abiding kids can get swept up in. I mean, how can a 12 year old ever be treated as an adult? "Adult crime, adult time" really doesn't cut it when you're talking about somebody who stopped believing in Santa 1-2 years ago, hasn't menstruated (had his voice change), doesn't have hair one on his/her body, still plays on jungle gyms, and has no idea what a 1040 form is? We're talking kids still 2 years away from legally working on a family farm, legally driving a tractor on that farm, and 4 years away from driving normal vehicles on city, county, state, and federal roads? Yet, we treat them like adults. The law was a wrong headed response to kids being conned into doing the shooting in gang violence because the older person doing the conning (usually 18 or older) told them they'd become gang members and wouldn't get punished. I mean, who can't con a 12 year old into doing something stupid? Well, parents generally can't con a 12 year old into doing anything, but that's different.

Anyway, the basic idea is that for some, running afoul of the law and getting into that pipeline direct to prison is hard to resist. If you're a person of color, LGBTQ, and poor, the odds of those pressures increase. Depending on the laws in your state, you're an adult at anywhere from 12 to 18 - there's a big difference between the mentation of a 12 and 18 year old.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to yourself For This Useful Post:
joybubby (06-28-2018), miamac (08-29-2016)
  #16  
Old 08-29-2016, 12:03 PM
Minor activist Minor activist is offline
Registered User
 

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: WA USA
Posts: 1,632
Thanks: 1,034
Thanked 1,453 Times in 797 Posts
Default

>fluid

Yourself is pointing the spotlight at one of the hardest things to understand.

It's already a mind stretch to think about a 3-year-old saying "Mama, something went wrong when I was in your tummy. Put me back so I can come out a girl". But at least those of us who have fixed gender identities can look at that and know what a fixed gender identity is.

There's a sizable body of evidence that there's an inbuilt and fixed sense of being male or female. But then you learn about people whose identity fluctuates and your mind stretches until it goes TWANG! again.

Zoe is the person to ask about numbers but my own understanding is that fluid identity is a minority within a minority. And indeed I don't envy a warden trying to make safe and humane decisions about such people.

CenTexLyn swung the spotlight onto the difference between people who were already under a doctor's care for gender dysphoria and people who spring the idea on overworked administrator only after getting locked up. Inmates gaming the system is the first thing someone who knows prisons will think is happening because they've watched it happen All The Time.

Even that can be real, though. I've seen a trans woman erupt in fury at the question "When did you know?", because of the lifetime of pain she'd been through trying desperately NOT to know and trying with all her might to change her brain to match what every reflecting surface was telling her. Late diagnosis is a completely real thing. Again, I'm glad I'm not the prison official dealing with it.

Oh, and it can be pretty hard to follow the law when your choices are turning tricks or starving. Or when you're mentally ill and self-medicating. "Addiction and illegal activity are a package deal", said one convict in an open letter she wrote to at-risk kids about how to avoid winding up like her.

A disproportionate number of trans people get in trouble with the law. Their ethics are as good as anyone else's.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-29-2016, 01:04 PM
yourself yourself is offline
attorney
 

Join Date: May 2010
Location: around
Posts: 11,808
Thanks: 4,210
Thanked 21,282 Times in 7,463 Posts
Default

Yes, mental illness and criminal conduct - and we have been criminalizing the mentally ill. we've also been criminalizing chronic pain.

I had a client busted for meth. Why meth? because it eased his schizophrenia, and he was schizophrenic. His mother was schizophrenic. His father was in and out of a mental institution, too, though I never found out why. dude was born behind the 8 ball. Asked him about his meth use when he came back from elgin and was competent to stand trial. He said I should think about it. A trip to the psychiatrist's office costs $200 and isn't available for 60-90 days in rural counties. The meds he was on cost $500 a month. A therapist is (was)$120 a session. To get a script, he needed $700 and an appointment with a therapist. Otoh, he could hit up a meth dealer any time he liked, no script necessary, and find relief. He'd been busted for possession of meth after being found sleeping in his truck.

Go to the hospital, I said. He said I should try it some time. If his crisis was not full blown, he would be given the name and contact number for the public psychiatrist and told to see him. He needed to be in more than crisis - he needed to be an imminent danger to self or others or he would not be given a bed in the hospital. He'd also be kicked out rather quickly with a 3 day supply of his meds, just like with prison - 3 day supply of meds and contact information for professionals with long waiting lists.

Knowing community mental healthy in the area, he was right.

From my own experience with chronic pain, I'll do anything to stay away from Schedule II drugs. Schedule II means you can't get a refill without an actual written script, and you can't get it more than a few days in advance of when you run out. Gabapentin, Tegretol and the like? Hell, I can go on holiday for a month and not worry about running out halfway through my holiday and what am I going to do about a script so that I can get the drugs that I need to think remotely straight. Staying off and away from schedule II drugs means that after shattering my leg, I went off the opioids probably way too early, was very happy I live next to nobody so nobody but my dogs could hear me screaming as I packed my leg in ice and drank. And I can't drink - I'm a very cheap date. So, is it any wonder that heroin is exploding in MA? Can't get your pain meds, but there's a heroin dealer just about everywhere. Yes, opioid addiction is a real problem, but that real problem has put people who need the medication in real jeopardy and very real pain. If you doubt me, have a MESS IIIc injury to your lower leg and see how quickly you go off the opioids after they started you on fentanyl in the ER and ICU. Famous last words:

(they stick fentanyl into the IV tube in the ER)
ME: Holy shit! Wow! I'm like, totally tripping.
ER people: we're going to move you now
ME (as they move me): AAAAHHHHHHHHHHH! (unconsciousness)
(did you know there are pain levels above 10? I never wanted to experience them, but I did. Despite the fentanyl)

Anyway, digression over. Flashback only mildly averted. Wow.

Here's the cautionary tale about political/legal systems and transgenderism:


The above is a documentary about Iran and how the country treats homosexuality v. the transgendered. In Iran, homosexuality is illegal, punishable by death. It is one of the worst countries to be gay in. Transgenderism, however, is perfectly legal. Doctors, knowing this, push patients into transitioning. Patients push themselves into transitioning. The choice for gay men is really screwed up - transition and love men as much as you want, get married, etc, or face the very real possibility of being executed for being gay. Lots of laymen choose to transition as gender identity takes a back seat to sexuality. The results of these transitions are equally screwed up as many gay men find it is next to impossible to live as women (there are more reasons than just identity involved - family support and social options can also change drastically with a transition, and it's Iran - women, trans or otherwise, don't have the options men have). It is a great, horrible social experiment that goes to the extent to which people will go to to when it comes to social pressures.

Yes, late term GID is possible, but I have yet to see a prevalence study that pertains to those convicted of major violence against women. Again, in an age of, "you are if you say you are", we are doing a disservice to those who truly are trans when we lump everybody into the, "you're trans" without investigation, lots of therapy, etc. This is especially true of people spending life in prison with a history of sexually sadistic violence against women. Especially those who want to keep their okra and prunes yet transfer to a women's prison. the rates of women traumatized by male sexual violence needs to win out in all such cases.

Until we know more about gender identity in prison, do we really want to go about chopping bits off and screwing with their hormonal makeup? Until we have a better idea of what true gender identity is, especially as expressed under the social pressures of whatever environment, do we really need to be doing much of anything to change the outward appearance of a person? Until we have a better idea of what psychopathy is, do we really need to be buying into the protestations of violent sexual sadists?

Dealing with sex offenders, I can impart this bit of knowledge - those who are sincerely involved in their treatment are difficult to distinguish from a psychopath. Those who pass their polygraphs because they are telling the truth are impossible to tell apart from the psychopath who's lying his ass off. Most psychopaths are quite capable of scamming anybody into believing anything about themselves. Trying to differentiate those who think it'll be easy pickings over at a women's prison, where they'll be able to feed their other needs, needs rarely addressed in the men's prisons because they're sentenced to life or similarly long periods in prison from those who are violently sexually deviant but also trans? Really?

I'm not into unnecessary suffering. Seriously. But we need better rubrics than those that basically boil down to, "the violent sexual sadist who's victimized untold numbers of women (but at least x that we know of) says he's trans, so we need to give him hormones and send him to the women's prison" I am oversimplifying, but it does kind of boil down to this. And this isn't a good way to distinguish between the psychopath and the psychopath who is also trans.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-29-2016, 02:06 PM
Minor activist Minor activist is offline
Registered User
 

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: WA USA
Posts: 1,632
Thanks: 1,034
Thanked 1,453 Times in 797 Posts
Default

>I have yet to see a prevalence study that pertains to those convicted of major violence against women

Nor have I.

I can't shed any light on how much or how little overlap there is between trans people on the one hand and the population of people trying to get into women's prisons with an M on their birth certificates on the other hand.

On the subject of safety for women inmates, it's important to remember that after enough time on hormones, permanent impotence sets in. It tells you something about the depth of trans people's needs that it's an acceptable tradeoff for them.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-29-2016, 03:15 PM
yourself yourself is offline
attorney
 

Join Date: May 2010
Location: around
Posts: 11,808
Thanks: 4,210
Thanked 21,282 Times in 7,463 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minor activist View Post
>I have yet to see a prevalence study that pertains to those convicted of major violence against women

Nor have I.

I can't shed any light on how much or how little overlap there is between trans people on the one hand and the population of people trying to get into women's prisons with an M on their birth certificates on the other hand.

On the subject of safety for women inmates, it's important to remember that after enough time on hormones, permanent impotence sets in. It tells you something about the depth of trans people's needs that it's an acceptable tradeoff for them.
Not entirely sure of that, nor do I think that the male sex offender population is sure of it. After all, people who've been castrated as a form of punishment for sex offenses are able to maintain erections. People subject to chemical castration (those placed on largely female hormones for the purpose of making them impotent) find that their bodies change - they gain breasts, weight, etc, but they are still able to get erections. not as easily as before, but they are quite capable of offending, bolstering the idea that many offenses are committed not for sexual gratification, but for gratification of other needs - power, anger, violence.

Then again, libido v. hormones is still not well understood or you wouldn't find psychiatrists using Wellbutrin as a first form of treatment for environmental/circumstantial depression in civilly committed sex offenders as it usually doesn't touch libido and can in some cases increase sexual desire in all populations.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-29-2016, 05:48 PM
Minor activist Minor activist is offline
Registered User
 

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: WA USA
Posts: 1,632
Thanks: 1,034
Thanked 1,453 Times in 797 Posts
Default

There is indeed a lot of individual variation in hormone response.

We may get some data about how well yourself's idea of dedicated housing works. November before last Rikers Island opened a 30-bed transgender housing unit. They have a large enough population to do things like that.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Minor activist For This Useful Post:
yourself (08-29-2016)
  #21  
Old 08-29-2016, 06:10 PM
yourself yourself is offline
attorney
 

Join Date: May 2010
Location: around
Posts: 11,808
Thanks: 4,210
Thanked 21,282 Times in 7,463 Posts
Default

is this for misdemeanants? or for those awaiting trial?
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 08-29-2016, 06:19 PM
Minor activist Minor activist is offline
Registered User
 

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: WA USA
Posts: 1,632
Thanks: 1,034
Thanked 1,453 Times in 797 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yourself View Post
is this for misdemeanants? or for those awaiting trial?
I can't tell from the articles I've read. Maybe both.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 08-29-2016, 07:37 PM
Zoe Brain Zoe Brain is offline
Registered User
 

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: ACT Australia
Posts: 32
Thanks: 4
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CenTexLyn View Post
The reality is that there are not that many true transsexuals even IN prison. There IS a current wave of violent males who choose to claim trans status since they are never getting out (because of their violent conduct, often against females) and want to be speshul snowflakes.

We even had an FTT in this State that was given the option to go to a male facility, although they would not have been permitted in population. They had top surgery and had a judge sign off on the legal fiction that they were male. During their present sentence, they have since realized that they were, in fact, just a butch lesbian and stopped the testosterone.
Interesting. That hasn't been the experience here in Australia, though no doubt things are different in Texas. Odd, since the populations of both are similar in size.

When I was on the advisory panel to the Australian Capital Territory government regarding law reform in this area, we heard from several people at all levels in the prison administration system.

Their main concerns were those inmates trying to game the system, and also some infiltration by groups such as the Enryes Collective and Womens Liberation Front, who used political lesbianism as a front for sexual predation on inmates, as well as committing violence on gender variant inmates. A worse problem than even the radicalisation by the Muslim Brotherhood, the Aryan Supremacists never having gotten much traction here.

My main concern was the lack of experienced medical specialists in the area, both for Intersex and Trans issues. Some Intersex inmates required specialist medication so as not to die of heart failure, while incompetent conservative medics would deny all treatment to Trans patients, and incompetent progressive ones would be far to free in okaying surgery despute WPATH guidelines.

Complicating the issue is that often Gender Dysphoria is progressive, and a stressor such as divorce, widowhood or incarceration can convert a chronic but manageable condition into an acute, unmanaged one. So a "no treatment other than what was being taken before" policy is as brain dead as one that restricts treatment of diabetes or heart disease the same way.

When we put it that way, and showed the prison administrators the evidence, they got it, and that policy was changed.

Regarding medical incompetence, in the worst cases, Gender Dysphoria was created in both men and women by administering innapropriate cross-sexed hormones. This usually shows signs in months, often weeks, so is a pretty reliable diagnostics tool. In MtoF cases, the changes are reversible. FtoM, often not, so caution should be exercised. While most such cases in the literature were from overseas, there were a few within Australia.

Then there are those who can't be happy living within any gender or sex binary model. Typically a patient who tries transition, de-transitions, re-transitions, and in the best cases finds comfort in being nonbinary both in biological sex and gender. Usually though they're just psychiatric basket cases. We don't know how to help them.

Some with Subclinical Gender Issues sublimate their feelings by becoming very Transphobic, often calling for the extermination of Trans people. We see a similar phenomenon in Homophobia, it's become a cliche that the most rabid antiGLB politicians or pastors are likely to be caught visiting Grinder or Rentboy.com, or if Lesbian, involved in child pornography. I'm sure there's at least one PhD thesis to be written on this phenomenon, the pattern is so obvious.

As regards what to do. - play by ear, invite experienced specialists to monitor the situation, come down like a ton of bricks on inmates who are predators, and ten tons on guards who are. Recognise that solitary confinement is torture, and if continued for over 3 months, causes psychological damage that is unlikely to fully heal.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 08-29-2016, 07:56 PM
CenTexLyn CenTexLyn is offline
Registered User
 

Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: TX-US
Posts: 14,835
Thanks: 644
Thanked 10,968 Times in 5,952 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minor activist View Post

On the subject of safety for women inmates, it's important to remember that after enough time on hormones, permanent impotence sets in. It tells you something about the depth of trans people's needs that it's an acceptable tradeoff for them.
I guess you missed the "Tara" Hudson debacle in the UK then...that one advertises about his '7-inch surprise' which suggests your claim is incorrect.

And, to a step further, Masbruch in California shows that women are at risk from the males in their midst. Or perhaps you would want to see your daughter housed with the one in New York who was the darling of Larry, err 'Laverne' Cox last year...surely you remember Luis Morales ("Synthia China Blast"), the Latin King that burned a small child after having killed the child (he was not convicted of the rape of the child that occurred).

Stop and take a look sometime...it is primarily the violent males that claim laydee feelz that have become the media darlings of the 'put the males in with women'.

Bottom line is that, at some point, agencies HAVE to step up and protect actual females that are in their custody. Most have already been harmed by males at other points in their lives and yet the trans contingent wants to further traumatize them by claiming THEY are not safe around men. Maybe the trans contingent should do something about male violence instead...
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 08-29-2016, 09:46 PM
miamac's Avatar
miamac miamac is offline
Site Moderator Gone Mad

Staff Superstar Winner PTO Site Moderator 

 

Join Date: May 2013
Location: ORnativeAZresCAtied
Posts: 9,912
Thanks: 13,026
Thanked 18,884 Times in 6,814 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CenTexLyn View Post
[...]
Stop and take a look sometime...it is primarily the violent males that claim laydee feelz that have become the media darlings of the 'put the males in with women'.
[...]
...and yet the trans contingent wants to further traumatize them by claiming THEY are not safe around men. Maybe the trans contingent should do something about male violence instead...
This has been a productive and respectful dialogue. Let's keep it that way by checking the dramatics and condescension at the door, please.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Need help understanding "inside" and "outside" charges. How can we help? Devilbus Kentucky General Prison Talk, Introductions & Chit Chat 18 07-12-2013 09:22 PM
Mountain View CI, "special visit" new rules Derevaune North Carolina Prison & Jail Visitation, Phones, Packages & Mail 1 01-22-2012 12:16 AM
No Mail "printed from internet" at Mountain View Correctional??? Derevaune North Carolina General Prison Talk, News, Introductions & Chit Chat 6 08-31-2011 08:22 AM
"Brushy Mountain Witch" in Lewisburg superdreamATM Tennessee General Prison Talk, News, Introductions & Chit Chat 0 10-28-2009 09:42 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:10 AM.
Copyright © 2001- 2017 Prison Talk Online
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Website Design & Custom vBulletin Skins by: Relivo Media
Message Board Statistics