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  #51  
Old 03-13-2009, 09:10 AM
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Default $350, 000 back restitution

I trying to contact the FLU. Do you have contact information? It is in regard to back restitution in the amount of $350, 000 of which interest only has been paid for approximately 12 years. Do you have any information?
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  #52  
Old 03-29-2009, 12:14 AM
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OK, I have read through this and have some questions.

Are we required to list my wifes income/401k? She did not commit the crime
and is not the one listed on the restitution, I am. We do not live in a community
property state but the form I received states "... to clarify that the assets owned, jointly owned or controlled by a defendant and liabilities are all relevant to the courts decision regarding the ability to pay. Your net worth statement should include assets or debts that are yours alone, assets or debts that are jointly held by you and a spouse or significant other, assets or debts that are held by a spouse or significant other that you enjoy the benefits of or make occasional contributions toward, and assets or debts that are held by a dependent that you enjoy the benefits of or make occasional contributions toward." as well as this section: "Transfer of Assets: Include any assets that you have transferred or sold since the date of your arrest with a cost or fair market value of more than $500.00 also list any assets that someone else is holding on your behalf."

So does this mean the 3 cars we owned in the last 3 years that were all sold have to be listed even though they were all owned and sold by my wife? I don't have any bill of sale so am I going to get into a shooting match with them over the cost of the car and what it was sold for? Gee, we also gave a car to my sister when she lost her car to an accident. My mother gave us the money to buy that car because she knows we were able to find a reliable car where she wasn't. To the Fed's it will look like we're Rockefeller and made money selling cars but that isn't the case.

EDIT:

Since I am unemployed right now, by them looking at my wifes income, isn't that the same as her being made to pay restitution for a crime she didn't commit?
Also, if I black out her info on the W2, can they say anything? If she has a few grand in her account, say twice the mortgage as a cushion, will they try and take
it?

Last edited by Gulliver55; 03-29-2009 at 12:36 AM.. Reason: Add text
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  #53  
Old 03-29-2009, 02:48 AM
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As I understand it, the only time you are required to divulge your wife's financial information is for the PSR. It would be worth seeking out a legal expert's opinion to get a solid reading.

I'm guessing there hasn't been any new significant activity since your incarceration. You do want to make sure that your info on both forms is consistent.

Last edited by bellisq; 03-29-2009 at 02:51 AM..
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  #54  
Old 03-29-2009, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bellisq View Post
As I understand it, the only time you are required to divulge your wife's financial information is for the PSR. It would be worth seeking out a legal expert's opinion to get a solid reading.

I'm guessing there hasn't been any new significant activity since your incarceration. You do want to make sure that your info on both forms is consistent.

Thanks for the reply. I will contact the Attorney in PA you suggested.

I re-read my sentencing report. It is entitled at the top:

"Judgment in a criminal case"

I read it from front to back and the first page clearly states the defendant is sentenced as provided in pages 2 through 5 of this judgment. No where in it does it say anything about me not being able to apply for credit but I would swear that somewhere I recall being told that, either at the sentencing or by one of the probation officers I have had and I am not on the 3rd person but no where in the Judgment does it say this so would this mean the PO can only enforce what is in this report?
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  #55  
Old 03-29-2009, 11:41 AM
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Not applying for credit is a standard SR provision. It wouldnt be in your J & C
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  #56  
Old 03-29-2009, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outraged View Post
Not applying for credit is a standard SR provision. It wouldnt be in your J & C

Aside from remembering that I heard something to that effect, isn't the Sentence handed down by the judge the set of rules the probation officer
is supposed to enforce? It seems pretty clear, it listed 16 things I have to
comply with. One of them covers the basics with local, state and federal law so as to not leave the ...basics out. If it isn't in writing, what keeps them from saying I violated because I failed to wear purple on Tuesday? Granted that is an extreme but my point is that simple. The point of everything being written and documented is so that there is accountability. Trying to enforce rules not in writing ties my hands, how can I be accountable when any rule can be made up at any time? If not applying for credit is a standard supervised release provision, where can I find a complete set of these rules? Is there a copy here on the forum?

What do you think will happen once they run my credit report?
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  #57  
Old 03-29-2009, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outraged View Post
Not applying for credit is a standard SR provision. It wouldnt be in your J & C

This doesn't fit with something you said in a different thread:

forums / showthread php?t=110816&page=3

If it isn't in the Sentencing, how can I be expected to obey it?
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  #58  
Old 03-29-2009, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outraged View Post
Not applying for credit is a standard SR provision. It wouldnt be in your J & C
Taken from the other thread....

Quote:
Originally Posted by outraged View Post
There is no general restriction that you cant apply for credit while on SR. Now if you owe fines or restitution or had a financial crime, a PO or Judge may put that stipulation on your SR.

As to purchasing a house, I can understand why they wouldnt let him if he owes fines or restitution but once that is paid off, it shouldnt be a problem

So if it won't be in the official printed, signed Sentence then where would
this rule exist? I Googled it but came up empty handed.
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  #59  
Old 03-29-2009, 06:40 PM
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When I said a standard provision, I meant it is a provision many PO's will give. I guess I should have explained myself a little better.
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  #60  
Old 03-29-2009, 06:43 PM
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How can that be legal? for a PO to override the Judge with additional sanctions?
That hardly seems enforceable in court. There was a restriction the Prosecutor
wanted to place on me that the Judge shot down, who's to say he can't then just
approach the PO and suggest that very same restriction side stepping the Judge.

The Judge is just that---and for good reason.

If the PO tries to make a deal of it, I will gladly show her my true, legal
and court issued Sentence.

Can I be violated for something not even listed in my Sentence?
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  #61  
Old 03-30-2009, 09:24 PM
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Default Special conditions of supervision

I'm far from an expert, but have been on SR going on 18 months now. After reading the thread, I pulled my J&C to check it out. On page 4 of the J&C, it lists all special conditions of supervision. On my J&C there are 10 possible conditions present, with number 5 stating (The defendant shall be prohibited from incurring new credit charges, opening additional lines of credit, acquisitions or obligating himself/herself for any major purchases without approval of the probation office.) This condition was not checked on my judgement. I myself have never been told by either of my 2 PO's that I couldn't acquire new credit, and I have done so on many occasions, which have been disclosed on my monthly reports, with no negative feedback from probation. I personally think that type of restriction must show up on your judgement for probation to be able to enforce it. Good luck.....
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  #62  
Old 03-30-2009, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brucef11 View Post
I'm far from an expert, but have been on SR going on 18 months now. After reading the thread, I pulled my J&C to check it out. On page 4 of the J&C, it lists all special conditions of supervision. On my J&C there are 10 possible conditions present, with number 5 stating (The defendant shall be prohibited from incurring new credit charges, opening additional lines of credit, acquisitions or obligating himself/herself for any major purchases without approval of the probation office.) This condition was not checked on my judgement. I myself have never been told by either of my 2 PO's that I couldn't acquire new credit, and I have done so on many occasions, which have been disclosed on my monthly reports, with no negative feedback from probation. I personally think that type of restriction must show up on your judgement for probation to be able to enforce it. Good luck.....


Thank you for your input. I have a question or two...

You said that on page 4 of your J&C are "Special Conditions" and one of them has language directed at opening new lines of credit.
After this you said "This condition was not checked on my Judgment", what did you mean by "checked"? Also, if it is on the J&C, is
that not the same as the Judgment order??

None of my J&C pages have any check marks and page 4 is the list of
restrictions, from what I have read online and an attorney confirmed is
a list of the standard restrictions. Page 5 is for my Restitution. I have no section for "Special Conditions".

I no longer fill out monthly sheets but I have a copy here, no where on it
does it ask about lines of credit, only my existing bank accounts. Yours asks about credit?

Last edited by Gulliver55; 03-30-2009 at 09:36 PM..
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  #63  
Old 03-31-2009, 04:19 AM
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Hopefully FedPO will check in on this soon and we can get some definitive answers.
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  #64  
Old 03-31-2009, 07:08 AM
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I'm in the Middle District of Florida, other districts may have different J&C paperwork. On my J&C on page 3 it lists the standard conditions of supervised release. Page 4 is titled "Special Conditions Of Supervised Release", this page lists 10 possible special conditions. There is a small line next to each condition, where if it applies there is room for a X mark next to the condition. (sorry I said check mark before). On my judgement only 3 special conditions have been checked or x'd. One of those not x'd was the condition concerning a defendant not incurring new credit charges ect. One of X'd conditions is very specific to my former profession, so I think this page might be done as an addendum. The conditions not X'd include those for SO's, CP, illegal aliens, ect.

Now, I have had 2 different PO's, and each thoroughly reviewed my J&C with me at the beginning. When they reviewed the special conditions, they both said that only the 3 conditions which had been X'd are those that I had to comply with.

Lastly, on my monthly report I list the entire amount of my credit card charges under the expense heading "credit cards". I have also done many account money transfers which I have also disclosed. I have had many purchases over $500 which I list each month. I purchased a new car on credit which I also disclosed on my report. I have never been told by either PO that I was not in compliance.

I hope this helps, and like I said, my J&C may be specific to the Middle District of Florida. Good Luck....
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  #65  
Old 03-31-2009, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brucef11 View Post
I'm in the Middle District of Florida, other districts may have different J&C paperwork. On my J&C on page 3 it lists the standard conditions of supervised release. Page 4 is titled "Special Conditions Of Supervised Release", this page lists 10 possible special conditions. There is a small line next to each condition, where if it applies there is room for a X mark next to the condition. (sorry I said check mark before). On my judgement only 3 special conditions have been checked or x'd. One of those not x'd was the condition concerning a defendant not incurring new credit charges ect. One of X'd conditions is very specific to my former profession, so I think this page might be done as an addendum. The conditions not X'd include those for SO's, CP, illegal aliens, ect.

Now, I have had 2 different PO's, and each thoroughly reviewed my J&C with me at the beginning. When they reviewed the special conditions, they both said that only the 3 conditions which had been X'd are those that I had to comply with.

Lastly, on my monthly report I list the entire amount of my credit card charges under the expense heading "credit cards". I have also done many account money transfers which I have also disclosed. I have had many purchases over $500 which I list each month. I purchased a new car on credit which I also disclosed on my report. I have never been told by either PO that I was not in compliance.

I hope this helps, and like I said, my J&C may be specific to the Middle District of Florida. Good Luck....
Ah.

So a J&C can look different based on where the court is...I incorrectly presumed it was a standard government form.
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  #66  
Old 03-31-2009, 07:37 AM
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A Google search reveals examples of other peoples J&C online.

Here are three examples of J&C's with "Special Conditions" and all three have
conditions on opening new lines of credit. My J&C has none of these directives
and so I don't see how the PO can attempt to force such a condition on me.

http://www.mediafire.com/?3w1xw5vnvcl

http://www.mediafire.com/?jkmhimi5u1w

http://www.mediafire.com/?mbkyzfacyiv

I contacted several attorneys on this subject, only one responded back as of
right now and she said that without the verbiage in my J&C prohibiting, the PO would
need a modification before being able to hold me accountable. She did go on to say
that the PO may be trying to twist the meaning of this:

"(13) as directed by the probation officer, the defendant shall notify third parties of risks that may be occasioned by the defendant's criminal record or personal history or characteristics, and shall permit the probation officer to make such notifications and to confirm the defendant's compliance with such notification requirement"

or this one...

(3) the defendant shall answer truthfully all inquiries by the probation officer and follow the instructions of the probation officer

To justify placing a restriction on new lines of credit, she said that so long as
my credit accounts are paid current, my restitution is current and no illegal
activities resulted from having lines of credit, the Judge is not likely to violate
me for having opened them. Even less likely since I did not sign anything from
the PO accepting any conditions above those in my J&C.
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  #67  
Old 04-01-2009, 09:09 PM
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For the concern of spousal assets and income, it seems 18 USC 3664 has some loose verbiage that could be interpreted to say that the Probation Dept has a right to see
spousal income and assets. This is very disconcerting.
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  #68  
Old 04-27-2009, 09:51 PM
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FYI... one of my wifes cellies had her SR revoked because she applied for credit to buy a car. Her PO actually gave her verbal permission, but when the higher ups found out about it, her PO denied knowing anything about it and her SR was revoked and she has to spend the last 12 months back in the camp....Be careful and get everything in writing....

Looking for opinions on my own situation... My wifes lawyer suggested it was a good idea for us to divorce to protect me and my assets from the scrutiny of the FLU as well as her own debt that is going unpaid while she's locked up. He suggested she give me the house in the divorce as well. Now I'm concerned how her PO is going to feel about this and the possible repercussions.

She is serving a 12 month sentence and she went in 02/2009. The PO came by to check out the house last week and asked if it was ok for her to live here when released. I told him YES but I didn't mention the pending divorce. Her lawyer filed the divorce the day she went in and it will be final in the next week or so. I guess I'm just worried about further problems... I asked her lawyer if giving the house to me in the divorce would be looked at as hiding assets by the FLU, but he said it shouldn't be a problem... I guess I've just learned to expect the worst...
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  #69  
Old 05-14-2009, 06:37 PM
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If the Feds are requiring you to list your spouse's income, presumably they are calculating that income into their analysis of how much you should pay short of the state maximum. Isn't that unconstitutional in itself as they are including the spouse's income in the payment of restitution?
Also, how strict will they be in terms of restitution - will they allow you to live decently (not just barely) and allow you to accumulate some assets to pass along to your kids? I ask this because the restitution order I received was ridiculous and totally unfair - they based it on foreseeable damage.
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Old 05-14-2009, 06:39 PM
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Another question - will the Feds ever negotiate the restitution downwards eventually to a reasonable amount so that you can move on with your life?
Frankly, with the monies recovered plus the victims' writeoffs against taxes, the victims will be made whole.
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  #71  
Old 05-17-2009, 06:27 PM
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I cannot emphasize the importance of keeping the restitution agreement. Some of the financial litigation offics will obtain an administrative offset which if enforced will jeopardize even one-fourth of your social security payment. Tax returns, and, yes, even the stimulus is subject to garnishment due to certain offenses.
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  #72  
Old 06-22-2009, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jft View Post
Does it read that way in his J&C???, about the 80% I mean.

If not, payment will be set up by the federal litigation unit who does the collecting. They can't take what you don't have and you have to be allowed enough to live?

Hi

I have a 10% order for restitution during supervised release and I am about to be termed in 68 days....Can they increase it past the ordered 10%? After supervised release?
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  #73  
Old 08-19-2009, 06:33 PM
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What happens if you move to another country after you get off your SR? Will they be able to get you to pay your restitution if you stop paying once you relocated? What would happen if someone did this and came back to the states to visit, could they arrest you?
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  #74  
Old 09-05-2009, 05:13 PM
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I get off SR in two weeks I have 290,000.00 in restitution I was ordered to pay 10% of my income in my J&C. I recived a letter in mail today saying that they put a garnishment on my check for 25% of my disposable income. I was never contacted about monthly payments they just went strait to the garnishment. Is it to late for me to try to make a deal with them for less money. I know it is a long shot but there is no way I can afford 25%. Does this also mean that they will be taking my tax returns also? Any advice, help would be great.
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  #75  
Old 09-05-2009, 07:40 PM
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They take 25% of your disposable Income......What do they consider Disposable Income?


Quote:
Originally Posted by kcsucks View Post
I get off SR in two weeks I have 290,000.00 in restitution I was ordered to pay 10% of my income in my J&C. I recived a letter in mail today saying that they put a garnishment on my check for 25% of my disposable income. I was never contacted about monthly payments they just went strait to the garnishment. Is it to late for me to try to make a deal with them for less money. I know it is a long shot but there is no way I can afford 25%. Does this also mean that they will be taking my tax returns also? Any advice, help would be great.
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