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  #51  
Old 07-24-2007, 08:05 PM
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Default Let's Just Stop This

I wil express no further opinion on this topic. Let it have the last word so it can "win" and then it will go back into the woodwork where it belongs and with others of similar species. I have been as guilty of feeding it as anyone else, but let's not prolong the process any further.
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  #52  
Old 07-24-2007, 09:52 PM
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Congressman Charles Rangel (D-NY) has sponsored a bill called H.R.623 Second Chance for Ex-Offenders Act of 2007.Basically,it provides an expungement for first-time,non-violent Federal offenders so that they can clear their names and get a job when they get out. If anyone knows of somebody in this predicament,tell them to get their member of Congress onboard.
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  #53  
Old 07-25-2007, 02:02 AM
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Links mean nothing to me..
Fine. But then how come you said this earlier:

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If anyone here on PTO has any answers to curb crime, and felonious activities I'm all for it.
I posted the answers, buddy - they're right there when you click the links. I can copy-paste all those pages here so you can read it here, but I figured you were intelligent enough to know how to click a link and read for yourself.

Maybe it's time to get your head out of wherever it is you stuck it. You'll see a whole new world.
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  #54  
Old 07-25-2007, 04:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch Cassidy
Congressman Charles Rangel (D-NY) has sponsored a bill called H.R.623 Second Chance for Ex-Offenders Act of 2007.Basically,it provides an expungement for first-time,non-violent Federal offenders so that they can clear their names and get a job when they get out. If anyone knows of somebody in this predicament,tell them to get their member of Congress onboard.
Awesome! Now if we could get the states to do this! Actually, hadn't GWB at least talked about a similar bill - second chance for ex-offenders ... or is it the same bill?
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  #55  
Old 07-25-2007, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by YapYap
Oh come on! If other countries can do it, so can America.
Unfortunately... the USA often doesn't do things the way other countries do. *Every* other industrialized country has state-provided universal health care, but the USA doesn't.

I wish Michael Moore would make a documentary about the US prison system just as he has done about the US health care system in "Sicko"...
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  #56  
Old 07-25-2007, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ram63565
well jayton for someone who has such a problem with EX-offenders being given a second chance at life you sure seem to be cheering on the current LAW BREAKERS (ILLEGAL immingrants and their employers). Interesting how your allegiance can change to make your somewhat questionable point
Just as prisoners released from prison with no money or no skills are sometimes forced into breaking the law again just to feed their families, people from other countries who cross over illegally in search of work are usually doing so because they have to means to feed their family... Both are in the same situation, and have more in common with each other than we may realize.
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  #57  
Old 07-25-2007, 09:24 PM
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The Netherlands? Why do you bag on America when you dont reside here?// Well, maybe we have freedoms in America, and the Internet many can only dream of. Vitriolic chatter is very telling, and a bit juvenile. When one has a differing viewpoint and does not agree with some, does that make them your "buddy"?
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Old 07-25-2007, 10:00 PM
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They are 2 different bills.H.R.1593/S.1060 is the 2nd chance act currently before the House/Senate.H.R.623 is Congressman Rangel's Second Chance for Ex-Offenders Act.This would provide an expungement for Federal first-time,non-violent offenders.In my state of Pennsylvania,one can get a record expunged for around fifty bucks and only if they are acquitted or the charges are dropped.Otherwise,one must seek a pardon from the Governor.
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  #59  
Old 07-25-2007, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Crone2004
Awesome! Now if we could get the states to do this! Actually, hadn't GWB at least talked about a similar bill - second chance for ex-offenders ... or is it the same bill?

Check out my recent post on this.


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  #60  
Old 07-26-2007, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by jayton
The Netherlands? Why do you bag on America when you dont reside here?// Well, maybe we have freedoms in America, and the Internet many can only dream of. Vitriolic chatter is very telling, and a bit juvenile. When one has a differing viewpoint and does not agree with some, does that make them your "buddy"?
So sorry for caring about a country and people that aren't my own. You may crucify me for it. I didn't know that giving a shit was a crime in the US.

And with that, I bow out of this discussion because, of course, what do I know living in the country with the lowest crime rates, incarceration rates and recidivism rates in the world?

Last edited by YapYap; 07-26-2007 at 01:11 AM..
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  #61  
Old 07-26-2007, 03:38 AM
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Yap Yap,

Thank you for your input. I for one am always interested in looking at other countries to see what they are doing that works so that we can perhaps try to fix areas in the US that are not working so I appreciate the information you shared. It is frightening to think that 1 in every 32 Americans are being incarcerated these days. I is hardly what one could call a free society anymore, eh?


BC,

Thank you for the follow up!
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Last edited by Crone; 07-26-2007 at 03:40 AM..
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  #62  
Old 07-26-2007, 05:03 AM
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Default Just the tip of the iceberg

That's not even the barest tip of the iceberg, Crone....I've tried to stay away from this thread, because of the overwhelming extent of the stupidity of some of the posts in here (LOL...bet ya can't guess the posts I'm referring to, huh??)...It's really difficult to have open discussions with those whose minds are nailed shut...like a coffin.

During the 1990's a prison was built in this country every fifteen days. ...The communities who've lost their industries and economic bases following NAFTA, etc., have been hard-pressed to disregard the benefits of having a prison in their home towns. (http://www.sacbee.com/288/story/288124.html)
..BUTTTTT....there have been horrible unintended consequences....for example, yesterday I was reading a firsthand account of incarceration in a Florida camp by an ex-inmate...READ THIS: http://60733066.blogspot.com/2007/07...l-inmates.html

The point I'm making is that usually the COs and staff are community members where the prison is located....it's only a question of time before the cos and staff become inmates themselves.....

The inmate population is exploding and growing exponentially, with severe overcrowding crisis' existing in every US state.

This is only the beginning. Illegal search and seizures are now legal. Habeas Corpus is gone. Our basic constitutional rights are being stripped away at an alarming rate. The income gap is growing. Meanwhile, our politicians and political system are mired in a war that ironically is supposed to "spread/bring DEMOCRACY" to the Middle East. (what an effin' joke)

The War on Drugs and institutional release of mentally ill individuals has filled our jails and prisons with individuals who're taking up bed space formerly reserved for seriously violent felons. The public has been misled into thinking that tougher sentencing guidelines and building more prisons will end violent crime and usher in a state of American Utopia. However what's happening instead is that the very fabric of American communities is being torn apart, the family unit is being torn asunder and destroyed...

Look, I'm a journalist. I began researching American prisons and the state of the judicial system nearly five years ago when I was working on a major story. What I discovered in the course of doing research was so shocking and horrific that I quit my job as a writer, took a lower-paying mindless job as a janitor, and have been devoting my time and writing to attacking this problem that threatens ALL of us, regardless of whether people belive it or not.

The United States is on the brink of a civil war, although not many people would believe this....it's a historical fact that sooner or later oppressed people will rise up against their (slave masters) oppressors and take back their freedom. Voting is ineffectual, and will not change things because of lobbiests and campaign contributions. CCA, CBS, MCI, etc., all have powerful lobbies and contribute millions of dollars in campaign contributions in order to get likeminded politicians into office. Politicians are not poor working or working class folks. They have education, money, and power. They're only winning right now because WE haven't mobilized, organized, and stabilized our nation. WE are currently divided against our selves, due to the class and race war that our government has perpetrated upon us. Prisons are seething with rage. It's only a question of time before it spills over the walls and blood flows in the streets.

WE, the people, need to put aside our differences and come together. WE can win the war with our numbers, because WE outnumber THEM hands down. ....Don't start telling me that WE can vote our oppressors out of office....(DOESN'T ANYONE REMEMBER DANGLING CHADS and "GORE in 2004???) Doesn't THAT tell you something???????????????

This post might sound like it's off-topic, but really, the slave-labor issues within prisons is most definitely a condition that contributes to our disempowerment. Economic disenfranchisement is the big gun pointed at our heads. Families are bearing the burden of the free labor supplied by inmates. Meanwhile, the profit-margin of Nike, etc., is growing by leaps and bounds now that they don't have hefty payrolls...

I know it's early and I need more coffee...sorry to spew hell and damnation so early in the day, but "HEY"...the problems aren't going away any time soon....AND it's going to get a whole lot worse before it gets better. Until people wake the fu** up.....

"Je suis un chien qui ronge l'os.
En le rongeant je prends mon repos.
Un temps viendra, qui n'est pas venu, que je mordray qui m'aura mordu".


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Last edited by northstar; 07-26-2007 at 05:25 AM..
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  #63  
Old 07-26-2007, 12:41 PM
Butch Cassidy Butch Cassidy is offline
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Well said Northstar.There was a book written nearly ten years ago by Thomas Chittum titled "Civil War 2." It was a good read and mentions the problems with the Prison-Industrial Complex.
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  #64  
Old 07-26-2007, 01:03 PM
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Thank you NorthStar. There's something coming up on POV (Point of View) on Friday night (in NH - don't know about your area) about having prisons in 'your' town. I hope to be able to stay up late enough to watch it. I know there are a couple of threads about it on PTO - one is in the NH forums.
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  #65  
Old 07-26-2007, 01:10 PM
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Default The Price is Right

Bob Barker also owns a prison supply company and deals heavily with the B.O.P.I've used many of his "products" when I was in.
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  #66  
Old 07-26-2007, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northstar
This post might sound like it's off-topic, but really, the slave-labor issues within prisons is most definitely a condition that contributes to our disempowerment. Economic disenfranchisement is the big gun pointed at our heads. Families are bearing the burden of the free labor supplied by inmates. Meanwhile, the profit-margin of Nike, etc., is growing by leaps and bounds now that they don't have hefty payrolls...
The Daily Texan (newspaper)

3/27/01


Learn more about prison privatization and how it affects you
By Bob Libal

Creating profit off the labor of hundreds of thousands of imprisoned people has historically been called slave labor and morally objectionable.
But as it occurs in the form of growing for-profit prison industry in the present-day United States, it's called good business sense. And it's neither too objectionable for the U.S. government to sanction nor for the University to endorse by contracting with companies that profit from these private prisons.


As funding for higher education dwindles nationwide, the amount of money pumped into the prison industry increases. The prison industrial complex has become an economic force with money to be made in every aspect of a private prison from prison construction to providing prison food to selling products made by prisoners.


The industry has become so lucrative in fact that prison corporations are jumping at the chance to get in on the money. Companies such as Corrections Corporation of America and Wackenhut compete to offer the government the cheapest deal in building and operating new prisons.


The effect has been a swelling prison population. In the past 15 years, as the private prison industry has taken off, the number of incarcerated people in the United States has doubled, reaching 2 million.


Drug crimes have resulted in the majority of this dramatic increase with the United States now holding over a half million non-violent drug criminals in detention.


At the same time, for-profit prisons have become infamous for being largely unregulated, having low quality programs and guards, and higher rates of violence.


In a now notorious incident at a CCA prison in Ohio, two people were killed while six maximum-security prisoners escaped in broad daylight. This event occurred even after repeated attempts by officials to investigate the facility's conditions.

[...]

[ Bob Libal, the author of this article, is a communication studies/government undergraduate student (sophomore), and vice president of Students for Sensible Drug Policy, at the University of Texas at Austin.]
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  #67  
Old 07-27-2007, 01:19 AM
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"As funding for higher education dwindles nationwide, the amount of money pumped into the prison industry increases. The prison industrial complex has become an economic force with money to be made in every aspect of a private prison from prison construction to providing prison food to selling products made by prisoners."

Yes, there's a fortune being made by the private prison industry. Unfortunately, the inmates and convicts never see a dime of it. From a profit-margin perspective OF COURSE SLAVE LABOR IS GOOD BUSINESS!


IT IS UNCONSCIONABLE THAT SLAVE LABOR WITHIN THE uNITED sTATES IS OFFICIALLY SANCTIONED BY THE US GOVERNMENT, ESPECIALLY WHEN SLAVE LABOR IMPORTS ARE BANNED. i GUESS EXPORTS ARE DIFFERENT, HUH? YES, EVERYONE IN THE PRISON INDUSTRIAL GULAG COMPLEX IS MAKING MONEY....EVERYONE EXCEPT THE POOR SOB WHO CAN'T AFFORD DECENT LEGAL REPRESENTATION.


"The effect has been a swelling prison population. In the past 15 years, as the private prison industry has taken off, the number of incarcerated people in the United States has doubled, reaching 2 million."


Yeah, it's a booming industry all right. With hundreds of millions of dinero at stake, who can blame them? Some prison wardens have gone so far as to quit their jobs to become prison building contractors once they saw how lucrative it is to build prisons (AZ)....

Meanwhile, inmates are forced to pay rent and utilities, and when their families send them money on their books, the prison takes a big percentage to add to their till. ....Some inmates are going without toilet paper because they can't afford it, in spite of their families sending them money to pay for it. ...Eh? Smells like something stinks here.

Northstar

Last edited by northstar; 07-27-2007 at 01:29 AM..
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  #68  
Old 07-27-2007, 01:21 AM
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The last gasp of a society on the rocks is cannibalism. The next few years should be interesting indeed.
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  #69  
Old 07-27-2007, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMoff
The last gasp of a society on the rocks is cannibalism. The next few years should be interesting indeed.
Unfortunately, slave-labor-based societies can persist for a lo-o-ng time before slavery is abolished or the society collapses.

The Roman Empire lasted for nearly 500 years (plus or minus). Slavery in the USA lasted for more than 200 years.

Who knows how long this form of slavery will last? The events of the last 15 years (the doubling of the prisoner population) may be not the "last gasp" but just the beginning of a new kind of slave-labor-based society which may last for a long time into the future!

This is a very worrisome thought. Of course, let's all hope that the nightmare is over soon. But it may not be over soon, especially if we just accept it and act unconcerned about it (as long as it doesn't affect our own near and dear ones).
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Old 07-27-2007, 08:35 PM
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why don't you ask someone sitting in Wallen ridge or Red onion VA I think you might get a different tune . And before you say it no not all of them are there because they need to be at that level, these are human being we are talking about . It would be nice if all those who think prison is easy to spend a few days there and see what you think
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  #71  
Old 07-27-2007, 08:58 PM
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The endurance of a society based on slave labor depends in large part on the willingness of people to be enslaved. Hitler's 3rd Reich only lasted 12 years, and was ironically enough defeated in part by Stalin's Soviet Union. The Soviet Union, however, managed to bankrupt itself in just under another 50 years. Slaves simply don't produce well, no matter how heavily the whip is applied.

The Roman Empire endured for quite some time, to be sure. But the systems of government and society in Rome evolved considerably during that period. And of course there were incidents like the slave uprising led by Spartacus, which was eventually put down but after some time and great cost to Rome.

We know little or nothing of individual acts of resistance by those oppressed by ancient Rome. We know there were many against Hiter's Nazis, which undoubtedly shortened the life of the system. I have said before and will say again that if one Jew in ten had met the Gestapo at the door with a gun, there would have been no Holocaust. In any system of this sort, the supply of Gestapo will ultimately prove to be shorter than that of armed citizens, provided said citizens are willing to go to the wall.

A small group of resistance fighters with limited and often improvised weapons kept a large German force out of the Warsaw Ghetto for over six months. Most history books will tell you that they all died. However, even after bulldozers had been brought in and leveled the buildings of the ghetto to rubble, Germans soldiers refused to to into the ruins. They spoke of "ghosts" who crept out of the rubble and shot at them. And some of course never had the chance to tell the tale.
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Old 07-28-2007, 01:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMoff
The endurance of a society based on slave labor depends in large part on the willingness of people to be enslaved.
That is certainly true. It seems, though, that our tolerance to oppression has increased, compared to our grandparents' or great-grandparents' generation. In the era of the great Depression, there were massive layoffs and also massive resistance from workers. But today? Massive layoffs, but everyone accepts it as inevitable.

Or, to take another example:

On June 3, 1931 the heading of a NY Times news article read:

44 Arrested in Eviction Protest
Police Surprise Band of 100 Moving Dispossessed Family Back into Tenement
East Side Crowd Watches

All Freed in Night Court


By contrast, we never hear of today’s foreclosures meeting with any resistance at all. It would be unthinkable.


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  #73  
Old 07-28-2007, 01:23 AM
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In 1912, an armed group of some 12,000 coal miners marched on "the company" to demand safe working conditions and decent wages. "The Battle Of Blair Mountain", as it is now known, did not stop until the Army was called in. The companies won--for the moment. But they felt the blow, and the publicity that followed gave strength to the rising labor movement.

Those men were de facto slaves and took up arms to get their lives back. Would anyone do so now? I have no idea.
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  #74  
Old 07-28-2007, 01:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMoff
In 1912, an armed group of some 12,000 coal miners marched on "the company" to demand safe working conditions and decent wages. "The Battle Of Blair Mountain", as it is now known, did not stop until the Army was called in. The companies won--for the moment. But they felt the blow, and the publicity that followed gave strength to the rising labor movement.

Those men were de facto slaves and took up arms to get their lives back. Would anyone do so now? I have no idea.
The devastations caused by the epidemic of drugs has certainly vastly decreased people's ability to undertake collective actions of solidarity. Such actions presuppose a cohesive social fabric based on feelings of community and empathy. Community structure is no longer strong as it once was. Often, it is every man for himself.

In order for a cohesive, collective movement to exist, feelings of community are essential.
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Old 07-28-2007, 02:57 PM
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Yes I agree with DaveMoff about Prison Labor it's SLAVE labor. I remember the government wanting to charge inmates "rent" back in the early 90's...Unicor Co. does make millions they're "pimpin' the prisoners with the Governments approval...sad.
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