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  #26  
Old 11-06-2006, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nimuay
Techie - I heard that quote, too. Had to pick my jaw up off the floor...yet another reason trotted out in the vain hope that something can justify all the carnage. But not one word about learning NOT to use so much oil!
I think there is no doubt that Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld could and should be taken into custody and tried for international crimes, but who is going to enforce that one? This is a world of force majeur, and there is no force greater than the US right now. Perhaps, if Bush lives long enough, a la Pinochet, it can happen, but as we know, justice delayed is justice denied. Sometimes, revenge is all one can hope for.

I do not believe in the DP as I said before, however, remember justice was delayed for Adolph Eichmann, Israel still tried him and hung him in the end.

So maybe there is hope. Clinton put the U.S. under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court right before he left office, and I believe the US should be. Bush almost immediately rescinded the Executive Order after he took office. Why? We know why.

Being that my passion is History, I keep in mind that history almost always repeats itself and every nation has a life span, the bigger they are the harder they fall, just ask a Roman citizen from around 450 AD. Generally Republics only last around 250 years, then they die one way or the other, fade into oblivion or evolve into an Empire with the government becoming dictatorial, I believe we are doing the latter.

What the United States government sows it will reap. The pity is that it will be the innocent and powerless U.S. citizens that suffer the most, just like the Iraqis or that Roman citizen that was alive when Alaric sacked and burned Rome when it's empire died. I pity those that are alive and living in the US when that happens, I hope Linda and I are not.

Patti
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  #27  
Old 11-07-2006, 06:27 AM
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Patti, I agree; we are in the latter stages of empire, the "bread and circuses" phase (something I did not believe 6 years ago). Until then I had thought we were still in mid-phase, with a chance of learning to do better. Perhaps we still can. . . but never by following mass delusions of persecution, as we seem currently to be doing.
Yes, eventually the some of the Nazi perpetrators were in fact tried and sentenced, but it was thin gruel for the survivors, don't you think? It could not change the past, and it did not return those survivors to health, wealth or family. That is the sorrow we will have to face because of Bush's war -- that there is no way to return to those who have died, or who have suffered and survived, the lives they were living, the lives they have lost. I don't think the narcissism of the current executive branch members permits them to think of those people as real, but only as "other".
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  #28  
Old 11-07-2006, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginger2009
why are we still there??
Why did you ever go there ???????

I personally am opposed to Saddam being hung, I'm anti death penalty no matter what. I'm glad the UE took the same position, even the UK...

Anyway, I guess he won't be hung, he will probably be murdered in his cell... Hanging him would turn him into a martyr something nobody wants.....

I agree with Techietype, this trial was nothing but a joke with the US pulling the strings and 3 of his lawyers assassinated....

I also think Bush should be tried for the murder of 655,000 Irakis and 3000 US soldiers.

I do think the world is far from being a safer place right now. No matter what will happen to Saddam, the Western world will pay the consequences of this war in Irak.

Phil
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  #29  
Old 11-07-2006, 01:02 PM
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I don't want to upset anyone here but I do believe in Karma. For Bush as well as Hussein.
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  #30  
Old 11-07-2006, 01:06 PM
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thanks for bringing that up

I've been biting my tongue

I live life believing in Karma
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  #31  
Old 11-09-2006, 09:41 AM
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I don't know why we bother with these people. We're not the global police. I'm tired of babysitting them and keeping them out of each other's hair. They've been fighting each other for hundreds of years, and hundreds of years from now they'll STILL be fighting each other. War is their hobby. You can't help somebody who doesn't want to be helped. All we did was inherit Sadam's problems which he kept under control with an iron fist.
I think we should mind our own business and spend our valuable time, money, and resources on things that are worthwile or on people who appreciate it.
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  #32  
Old 11-09-2006, 11:26 AM
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Default We Are Helping Who?

We are not "helping" anyone in the Middle East, we are there to steal their oil. Every aggressor in history, including Hitler, said they were invading someone else for the noblest of reasons.

According to U.S. figures we killed over four million people during the Korean War. The former Defense Secretary during the Vietnam War, McNamara, admits to killing three million two hundred thousand Vietnamese. So far in Iraq conservative estimates put the Iraqi death at six hundred and fifty-five thousand.

Then there was Granada, Panama, Somalia, Yugoslavia, and many other wars. Not to mention the CIA overthrow of democratically elected governments in places like Guatemala, Chile, Iran, etc. And then of course the proxy wars like our creation of the Nicaraguan Contras. We back the Israelis in their slaughter of the Palestinians and their invasion of Lebanon, and the list goes one and on. And of course we backed Saddam in his aggression against Iran. No wonder that nearly the entire planet hates us.

How is it that one here in the belly of the beast can still see the U.S. as a peaceful and democracy loving nation? There is only one ideal our rulers hold dear—profit. Whether Saddam hangs or not, I believe good Americans should be working on drafting our deepest apologies to the Iraqi people, removing our occupying troops from their lands, and computing how many trillions we are going to pay them in reparations for the damage we have done. And as we are doing that we should be preparing the way for war crimes and crimes against peace trials for those who led us into this disastrous war of avarice and aggression.
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  #33  
Old 11-09-2006, 12:01 PM
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Let's not forget Kissinger and Indonesia!
We do see ourselves as peaceful, but we destroyed as much as we could of a race to create this nation! We all prefer not to see our faults/sins, but it's important to do if, either as people or as a nation, we want to get beyond the insanity of doing this war thing over and over.
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  #34  
Old 11-09-2006, 12:19 PM
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funny how this anti war hype and anti hate hype has been going on in this country just as long as anything else
I don't see how all the voices of disgust have changed anything and I don't expect to in my lifetime
The leaders of the countries of this planet are reading from a different book of knowledge
They are also the ones in power

Opinions that this war should be over and is unjustified are redundant

For all the wars that have happened there were voices saying very similar things

did it help ?

will it help now ?

I think not

The powers of this planet are running this world
not the people

everytime I hear about how things should be I wonder how everyone thinks that is going to happen ?
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  #35  
Old 11-11-2006, 02:35 AM
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Default Saddam to Hang

So might Bush.

Billie Jo sent me this link and posted it in another thread in the DP forum.

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forumy/20...rimes-case.php

Note the paragraph in the article about how Bush has immunized his administration from the International Criminal Court - which does not have the DP - however as stated in the article - by doing this Bush has opened himself and his team to being prosecuted in any nation - under the concept of "Universal Jurisdiction" on war crimes and other crime, i.e., any nation with a DP.

I do not support the DP, but I sure would like to see all of them doing life without!

Patti
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  #36  
Old 11-11-2006, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techietype
Why are we still there? President Bush just this past weekend speaking at rallies in four different states told us the current version of the reason why we are still in Iraq:

"You can imagine a world in which these extremists and radicals got control of energy resources. And then you can imagine them saying, "We're gonna pull a bunch of oil off the market to run your price of oil up, unless you do the following."

There you have it folks. You knew it all along. The reason we need to stay in Iraq for many more long years and who knows how many tens of thousands of lives is to protect down the price of gasoline. Remember when it was finding weapons of mass destruction or fighting for democracy?

Please vote tomorrow. It is very important.
Fruedian slip, perhaps?

and yes that article that Patty shared up there is quite interesting, I wonder if it makes the news beyond the Guardian and BBC?
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  #37  
Old 11-11-2006, 06:06 PM
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Even defeat in Iraq would not seem to be as humiliating to the American psyche as trying Donald Rumsfeld for war crimes. At least for now, I am hoping that the Congress investigates what has happened over the past four years in Iraq. Americans are not about to believe an international court.

When the concentration camps were liberated at the end of WWII one of the first things that they did was march the citizens of the town through to see what horrors were happening right underneath their noses. It was literally under their noses because the ovens in the camp supposedly had a fairly powerful and unique smell. But once it became apparent to the citizenry what was going on, there could be no further denial. They could say that earlier they didn't know, but now they did. I think that a similar thing needs to happen here.

I think if the abuses in Gitmo and elsewhere are openly discussed in congressional investigations it will do more good than in an international court. Congress has greater power to subpoena the information than the court would have. The question is whether or not such an investigation will take place. I won't hold my breath, but I think there is a good possibilty that it will happen.

Don't get me wrong. I would personally love to see Rumsfeld tried for war crimes before an international court. But I really think that all it would do is further move America to the right. Look at all the garbage that was said about France, and they were and are an important intelligence source in the war on terrorism.

Last edited by techietype; 11-11-2006 at 06:44 PM..
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  #38  
Old 11-11-2006, 06:29 PM
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I would like to see Congress investigate and signed a petition for just that the other day. My concern though is that the majority of the Democrats elected are moderate and may not have the balls to follow thru...

Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney and the rest at the top durng that/this time need to be charged as do the CEO's that made major $ off the war as well as those at the top of our government that made major $ from their investements in those companies...

I also think they should be charged internationally if the International Criminal Court can find a way or if any other country can find a way...

Death Penalty--I'm against no matter what but major fines and imprisonment as well as apologies....

Deb
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  #39  
Old 11-13-2006, 01:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Visitor7734
Gee, if we are going to hang war criminals, why not start off with George W. Bush, who has already slaughtered 655,000 Iraqis and nearly 3,000 U.S. troops in his quest to control the world's oil reserves.

I'm an ex-con, and where I come from that's called armed robbery. The fact that you do it on a global scale does not make it any less a crime. Remember, everything Hitler did was legal, and everything the Hungarians did in their fight for freedom was a crime.

Polls show the Iraqi people believe they were better off under Saddam. The U.S. arms one faction, the Shites who appear to be more loyal to Iran than to the U.S. What a mess! Anyone voting Republican?
I totally agree with you.
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  #40  
Old 11-14-2006, 07:20 AM
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I totally agree 100% with Patti & Hope.

I also believe we need to fix our own democracy First and the fact Patti can not vote is a good example of bad policy. I feel with one in seven Americans being a convicted felon, I wonder how many states restrict their rights. I am sure if they all could vote we would see a serious change in the political climate as well as improved treatment of inmates.

Saddam may have perpetrated evil acts but let's not forget about his conspirators.
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  #41  
Old 11-15-2006, 06:08 PM
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Default Saddam's Sentence

SADDAM'S SENTENCE
By Mumia Abu-Jamal, 11/5/06

"Iraqis looked to life under the Hussein regime as the good old days. That is a measure, not of how 'good' the old days were, but of how anguished is the present."

See full article at: http://www.xconvict.com/article_3.htm
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  #42  
Old 11-15-2006, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misscrys
if we talk about the evil stuff that saddam did why does it always g back to being about bush it seems kinda like well it doesnt matter what saddam did look what bush IS doing, not defending b ush cause lord knows he has put us in a horrible situtaion im just saying saddam did what saddam did and it had nothing to do with bush
Very good point. Bush and Saddam are apples and oranges. The discussion is about Saddam, not Bush. Should Saddam hang? That is up to the Iraqi's. Like it or not capital punishment is very popular in the Muslim world. If they choose to proceed then so be it. But this is not his only trial. He has several charges pending, some of them far worse than his recent conviction.
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  #43  
Old 11-16-2006, 01:45 PM
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it reminds me of parents who have several children
everytime you bring up what one has done wrong
the wrongs of all the others get brought up
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  #44  
Old 11-16-2006, 05:19 PM
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"The joke around Washington is, of course we knew Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. We still have the receipts."
-Ted Koppel
This whole situation is just waaaay sick.
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  #45  
Old 11-16-2006, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crzyrussell
Very good point. Bush and Saddam are apples and oranges. The discussion is about Saddam, not Bush. Should Saddam hang? That is up to the Iraqi's. Like it or not capital punishment is very popular in the Muslim world. If they choose to proceed then so be it. But this is not his only trial. He has several charges pending, some of them far worse than his recent conviction.
As cold as this is going to sound, if you want to be about Saddam.

What should he hang for then, under the laws of his country at the time he committed no crimes.

If you knew anything about the region you would know that Iraq was put together forcibly by the British in 1920 after having promised the Shiites, Sunis and Kurds their own nations, either separate of one another or each group being overlord of the other two. Iraq was part of the remains of the old Ottoman Empire.

Saddam was and his successor will have too also, do exactly what the old Ottoman Empire was doing for a thousand years, keeping the peace through terror.

Saddam is not the war criminal he did what he had to too to keep his people on top and to keep the havenots from doing to his people what he was doing to them.

Do I condone what he did or what the Ottoman's did or what the British did or the Americans did to the native to keep on top - no I don't

The fact, of the matter is Saddam was a soverign and rightful ruler (albiet by dictatorship and terror) of Iraq. He was deposed by an agressor nation, i.e., the United States that not only had no legitimate need to free Kuwait (which historically till the British has always been a part of Iraq through the Ottoman rule) .

The reason for both wars, one of which I served in was pure greed and desperation on the part of the Western world, chiefly Britain and the United States for the control of oil. Don't give me that we want to teach them democracy crude, true democracy is rule by chaos. Representative Republic is what the U.S. is - excuse me - was what the Founding Fathers established and we no longer possess. As for saving the kurds, etc., - bologna! WMDs, if he had them he would have used them, that is the greatest proof that by the time the U.S. came in the second time they were gone, who cares where!

So, though I find Saddam's actions despicable, he was doing what has been done in the region for thousands of years, whether it be the Persian, Greek, Arab, Ottoman Turk, British, Iraqi does not matter.

It still boils down to who is the true war criminal, in my mind it is Bush.

Patti
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  #46  
Old 11-17-2006, 07:33 PM
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The whole thing reeks of hypocrisy because the very people who want to hang Sadam did not lift a finger to get rid of him when he was president. Actually they voted for him and sucked up to him. They're cowards.
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  #47  
Old 11-17-2006, 07:36 PM
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hmm...i don't even believe that's the real saddam hussein...and i probably never will. the whole thing was just too staged for me to believe it...and the entire court process...a total joke.

they're going to hang an actor...which they'll probably either replace with a doll or like techie said...'kill' off some other way...out of the public eye...

that's a real can of worms opened there, huh? lol!
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  #48  
Old 11-17-2006, 08:28 PM
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The rumor was that they were going to DNA testing to confirm that it was really him.

At least his two sons are dead, a fitting end for two viscous men.
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  #49  
Old 11-18-2006, 03:44 PM
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that's nice crzyrussell. now can we talk about some of the activities of the CIA? which is the lessor of two evils?
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Old 11-18-2006, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillieJo
that's nice crzyrussell. now can we talk about some of the activities of the CIA? which is the lessor of two evils?
  • CIA- Goes after the bad guys.
  • Saddam, et al,- Rape, Murder, Starve and Repress innocent people.
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