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  #26  
Old 07-08-2006, 05:14 AM
Free Fall Free Fall is offline
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Going over this thread again it occurred to me that maybe some people here see it as “them” and “us”. I think we can all agree the Lays world is a million miles away from most of ours hence the lack of empathy just as a lot of the public in general have little sympathy for convicts and their families…it’s just human nature…I doubt the reaction for an infamous “blue collar” criminal would be the same…I’m thinking there would have been a lot of sympathy. I mean look at Tookie.

While I was in prison OJ Simpson was arrested for the murder of his ex wife and Ron Goldman. I’ll never forget the sight of the whole prison coming to a stand still as we were all glued to the Bronco chase. Of course they cheered him on and then raised hell when he finally surrendered. OJ was wealthy, but he was a Black man so I think people could identify with that.

Hell I’m slightly ashamed to admit it, but I felt a little tinge of glee when he was acquitted even though I believed he was guilty. Wasn’t that long ago a Black man could be hung for just looking at a white woman the wrong way. I was at liberty when OJ was found not guilty and living in the UK, but not long before, I was sentenced by the same judge in the same courtroom OJ stood in (yeah I guess folks can find out who I am if they don’t have anything better to do). Actually Ito sentenced me the two different times I had to do time. I should never have gone to prison. Lay was part of the establishment…it’s the establishment I still have a lot of hatred for so yes, I’m justified in feeling not one iota of sympathy. I hope he burns in hell.

Damn I hate it when I get angry like this.

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  #27  
Old 07-08-2006, 03:29 PM
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I don't like what Mr. Lay represented. He represented a system that gets rich off the backs of us who go to work everyday, and live pay check to pay check just to barely scrape by while he is making millions, no billions, of dollars.

He didn't care about any of our loved ones in prisons or how we as loved ones struggle to stand by them. All he cared about what making more money.

So, I think he needed to be punished. I am sorry that the stress of all that he went through caused his death. But I think that this case is an excellent lesson teacher in ethics and morals. I make mistakes everyday, some of them huge. But I also must be willing to accept the consequences of those actions. I really have no sympathy for Mr. Lay. I am sorry that he is dead. Whether he spent the rest of his life in prison or whether he is dead, he can never undue the harm to all the families whose life was devestated by his actions.

But as we are all sinners, we all need to be forgiven.

Last edited by tweetwashington; 07-08-2006 at 03:31 PM..
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  #28  
Old 07-08-2006, 07:39 PM
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This is interesting from a sociology point of view.

People whose lives are not affected by Lay feel like they are his victim and feel anything from vindication to happiness because he got convicted and was heading to prison. Not because he harmed these particular people, but because of what he represents to them... a man who felt like the laws didn't apply to him, or was smarter than the law, and felt like he could get away with things. A man who put his greed above the welfare of his family or those that trusted him.

Interesting.

And now we look at people that PTO members meet and often come here to discuss in disgust because of the way their men are looked at by people who were not harmed by them. You know... "society." People that PTO member's husbands were never in contact with, yet still feel happy that a drug dealer, robber, rapist, SO, etc. is put into prison because he behaved as a man who felt like the laws didn't apply to him, or was smarter than the law, and felt like he could get away with things. A man who put his greed above the welfare of his family or those that trusted him.

Deja vu.

It sounds like people who feel victimized feel the same way toward "the criminal", even if they themselves want their convict to be looked at and judged for the "good they have done, and the man they are, not the actions they took or mistakes they made."

People are really a very interesting group to observe.
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  #29  
Old 07-09-2006, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tweetwashington
I don't like what Mr. Lay represented. He represented a system that gets rich off the backs of us who go to work everyday, and live pay check to pay check just to barely scrape by while he is making millions, no billions, of dollars.

He didn't care about any of our loved ones in prisons or how we as loved ones struggle to stand by them. All he cared about what making more money.

So, I think he needed to be punished. I am sorry that the stress of all that he went through caused his death. But I think that this case is an excellent lesson teacher in ethics and morals. I make mistakes everyday, some of them huge. But I also must be willing to accept the consequences of those actions. I really have no sympathy for Mr. Lay. I am sorry that he is dead. Whether he spent the rest of his life in prison or whether he is dead, he can never undue the harm to all the families whose life was devestated by his actions.

But as we are all sinners, we all need to be forgiven.
Not only did he represent a system that got rich off the backs of hard working citizens he, Enron other companies such as Halliburton, the current administration in the White house can only be described as organized criminals at the highest level and they get away with it. Your average low level criminal DOESN’T…they get caught….time and time again. By all accounts his family is still whooping it up with his ill gotten gains. Families on this site are struggling to pay for the collect calls from their incarcerated loved ones, gas to travel the hundreds of miles to visit them and keep a roof over their heads.

If anyone wants to learn more about Ken Lay, his cronies and how to this day they are still royaly screwing citizens and consumers a like, you might want to pick up a copy of Greg Palast’s book “The best democracy money can buy”. The book is an opener and Greg is king. I yet have to pick up his latest “Armed Madhouse” and kicking myself for missing a book signing last week.



http://www.gregpalast.com/irregularities-or-fraud
http://www.gregpalast.com/when-ahnold-got-layd
http://www.gregpalast.com/the-al-capone-of-electricity









Last edited by Free Fall; 07-09-2006 at 01:53 AM..
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  #30  
Old 07-09-2006, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jameslo
This is interesting from a sociology point of view.

People whose lives are not affected by Lay feel like they are his victim and feel anything from vindication to happiness because he got convicted and was heading to prison. Not because he harmed these particular people, but because of what he represents to them... a man who felt like the laws didn't apply to him, or was smarter than the law, and felt like he could get away with things. A man who put his greed above the welfare of his family or those that trusted him.

Interesting.

And now we look at people that PTO members meet and often come here to discuss in disgust because of the way their men are looked at by people who were not harmed by them. You know... "society." People that PTO member's husbands were never in contact with, yet still feel happy that a drug dealer, robber, rapist, SO, etc. is put into prison because he behaved as a man who felt like the laws didn't apply to him, or was smarter than the law, and felt like he could get away with things. A man who put his greed above the welfare of his family or those that trusted him.

Deja vu.

It sounds like people who feel victimized feel the same way toward "the criminal", even if they themselves want their convict to be looked at and judged for the "good they have done, and the man they are, not the actions they took or mistakes they made."

People are really a very interesting group to observe.
Jameslo, you are aware of my views about the apathy of some of the family members/loved ones of inmates here. I have no time for apathy, blame and not taking responsibility for ones actions. I however feel sick and tired of the exesss of the rich and powerful who get away with it and flaunt their loot in our faces. I certainly don't feel victimized by Lay and his lot. I don't have any loved one's inside...I never have although I have been locked up. I never stole, never sold drugs, never defrauded, was never violent (well not criminally ) never raped (men aren't that easy to rape , although I have taken advantage of a few ) I was involved in a business that's as old as mankind, but condemed in the bible and the law in some countries...Oh yeah and occassion I've had to send a few hotties to Enron excutives whooping it up in hotels and boats on Lake Travis. Back then I wasn't as socially aware as I am now, so maybe I'm guilty of reaping a profit of Lay.

But as you mentioned the responses on this thread are an interesting view on people and society...but hey even in prison there is a pecking order amongst criminals even if there is no honour amongst thieves .

Last edited by Free Fall; 07-09-2006 at 02:32 AM..
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  #31  
Old 07-09-2006, 08:55 AM
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I'd never say you had no right to your opinions or the viewpoints you have. We all have slightly varying points of view.

I don't doubt that there could be volumes written about crimes at high levels. That goes for most any administration, and certailny the Clinton administration is included. That also goes for administrations in other countries. Does the excess of wealth and power being flaunted extend to a "royal family" who have it all by no other action than birth?

My only point here, though was that even here at PTO, criminals don't seem to receive the same level of acceptance.

And as you pointed out, there is a pecking order even in prison. There, the "lower" the crime, the less accepted (child molester, for example). Here, it appears the higher the crime, the less accepted.

I didn't think PTO was about pecking orders, though, or being the judge of the crime. My understanding was that PTO was about support, and to some degree, understanding of how a person could get involved in their particular crime.

It seems, though, that for some non-violent offenders, PTO is no haven for them or their families.

Having said that, there are many people here who went to prison or have family in prison for white collar, money crimes. Is there a dollar amount at which support is no longer offered without judgement?

And if this is the accepted viewpoint of PTO members, do we really have an issue with "society" as they look down upon their chosen group of criminals with the same judgemental voice? Or do we all just agree to choose the group of criminals we want to see go down for the count and respect the other's right to do so?

My point isn't about what is or isn't legal, and who is or isn't getting away with it.

But it's interesting to read so many posts that are expressions of outrage that society continues to judge a convict beyond the judgement handed down by the courts. Post after post berating people who take pleasure in the hardship of others, as if prison wasn't hardship enough.

I'm not saying anythng about any ot this is right or wrong. All I'm saying is that there are things that society does that seem horrible when directed to our loved ones seem perfectly understandable when done by us.

There's quite a list of crimes committed by PTO family members. I'm not sure there's any crime not represented here. Anything from writing bad checks to raping children to embezzling. They all seem to have relatively unconditional support.

It's a good thing his wife didn't come here looking for support, huh? Her type isn't welcome here. She's draw the venom mentioned earlier.
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  #32  
Old 07-09-2006, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jameslo
It's a good thing his wife didn't come here looking for support, huh? Her type isn't welcome here. She's draw the venom mentioned earlier.
I don't agree with that at all. She would have been welcomed by PTO members and would have received just as much support here as anyone else.
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Old 07-09-2006, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jameslo
I'd never say you had no right to your opinions or the viewpoints you have. We all have slightly varying points of view.

I don't doubt that there could be volumes written about crimes at high levels. That goes for most any administration, and certailny the Clinton administration is included. That also goes for administrations in other countries. Does the excess of wealth and power being flaunted extend to a "royal family" who have it all by no other action than birth?

My only point here, though was that even here at PTO, criminals don't seem to receive the same level of acceptance.

And as you pointed out, there is a pecking order even in prison. There, the "lower" the crime, the less accepted (child molester, for example). Here, it appears the higher the crime, the less accepted.

I didn't think PTO was about pecking orders, though, or being the judge of the crime. My understanding was that PTO was about support, and to some degree, understanding of how a person could get involved in their particular crime.

It seems, though, that for some non-violent offenders, PTO is no haven for them or their families.

Having said that, there are many people here who went to prison or have family in prison for white collar, money crimes. Is there a dollar amount at which support is no longer offered without judgement?

And if this is the accepted viewpoint of PTO members, do we really have an issue with "society" as they look down upon their chosen group of criminals with the same judgemental voice? Or do we all just agree to choose the group of criminals we want to see go down for the count and respect the other's right to do so?

My point isn't about what is or isn't legal, and who is or isn't getting away with it.

But it's interesting to read so many posts that are expressions of outrage that society continues to judge a convict beyond the judgement handed down by the courts. Post after post berating people who take pleasure in the hardship of others, as if prison wasn't hardship enough.

I'm not saying anythng about any ot this is right or wrong. All I'm saying is that there are things that society does that seem horrible when directed to our loved ones seem perfectly understandable when done by us.

There's quite a list of crimes committed by PTO family members. I'm not sure there's any crime not represented here. Anything from writing bad checks to raping children to embezzling. They all seem to have relatively unconditional support.

It's a good thing his wife didn't come here looking for support, huh? Her type isn't welcome here. She's draw the venom mentioned earlier.
Most of us are hypocrites of some form or the other don’t you think? So why are you so surprised at the views of people here? Heck I noticed the various charities his family has asked people to donate money to in lieu of flowers…these were the charities he supported…life line ministries of the poor? Fancy that. You really are flogging a dead horse. As for Lays wife being welcomed here, you’d have to ask the others, since I don’t consider myself part of the welcome wagon, I’m just here to witness if anything I’ve been made rather unwelcome by some of the not so tolerant “loved ones” here. I’d sympathise with her and her family losing him aside from that I couldn’t give a rats ass…she’s a very wealthy widow I’m not.

And yes I consider the Royal family here a waste…something we can do without, why there hasn’t been a revolution here to get rid of them can only be put down to the apathy of the Brits…It may be my place of birth but I am no supporter. I have no historical connection with them…they are blonde blue eyed and my ancestors had dark skin, broad noses and nappy hair…do you think every Brit is a supporter of the Royal family?
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  #34  
Old 07-09-2006, 01:29 PM
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I'd never be unwelcoming to any but the veriest prisoner-bashing troll, and I would certainly offer Mrs. Lay my empathy, she's been through some s@#$.
BUT. I cannot help but see the ones who run Big Oil as part of the creation of the military/prison/industrial complex that has brought us to the current situation, which is damaging and destroying a great many lives.
Did they mean to do that, as individuals? I doubt it. But I don't weep when the members of the ogliarchy are indicted or convicted. I admit to having less sympathy for them than I do for the "common criminals," if only because they certainly have more resources and hence more options in life.
I dunno, maybe addiction to money and power should get as much empathy as any other substance problem. But I'll feel more of it when they stop running OUR PLANET into the pits.
If Bush, Rove, et al get their just desserts, I sure won't cry. But if Laura or the twins chose to come hang with the gang, I'd certainly be kind and understand that to THEM it's a tragedy.
Or whatever alien species Karl Rove hangs out with after dark for that matter.
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  #35  
Old 07-09-2006, 01:34 PM
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Jameslo, you made some valid points; but you also made a lot of presumptions about all the other members of PTO. I don't think the worse the crime the more support, although granted those people generally need more support. ( because they get the least support from society in general) My problem with "white collar crime" is not that they are lesser crimes, nor do I feel there is a pecking order. I just get tired of some people ( in society) thinking they are above other criminals who committed more heinous crimes. In my opinion all crimes have a victim, and even though non-violent crimes warrant less time in prison, they are still crimes. Having said that, I would never give less support because of the crime they were convicted of . I did however detect a bit of sarcasm when you were describing some of the more serious crimes. If you want fairness and support for white collar criminals, then please afford the same luxury to us members who have loved ones who are violent offenders. What you posted was so blatantly unfair to PTO as a whole community, and in my humble opinion you have a problem with people convicted of violent crimes and that is the crutch of the matter.
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  #36  
Old 07-09-2006, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jameslo
Again, I never said his crime wasn't a very bad one.

All I'm doing is pointing out the lack of support and understanding and all the rest that we fight for "our" convicts to get, regardless of the crime.

And we all may feel the impact of the Enron fallout, but that's hardly a direct impact. That term would be saved for the people whose retirements were wiped out.

Don't get me wrong - I am NOT defending the guy.

I am NOT defending the guy. I'm NOT.

He needed to go to jail for a very long time.

All I said was "listen to us - we sound like the victims we get so tired of hearing from."

Where's the empathy for the guy? Geez, the SO and VO threads are all about "don't be so hard on the guy!" And "society needs to give them a break."

All I did was point out that there was none of that for this guy.

I never even said he deserved any of it - I just pointed out that is wasn't there.
Jameslo, I have been reading your posts on this thread and I couldn't agree with you more. Thank you for expressing yourself about the lack of empathy and support you found in this thread.

Don't get me wrong - I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE PTO! :love::love: I do become quite concerned on those occasions that I see others on PTO (the web community where you will find support from others) being judgmental and less than compassionate or understanding about others that have been convicted. We don't want others to condemn those that we love. We should be mindful of that as we respond to these types of news stories and offer the same compassion to those that somebody else loves.
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Last edited by Crone; 07-09-2006 at 02:11 PM..
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  #37  
Old 07-09-2006, 05:52 PM
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DLM - your disagreement is not with me, then. It's with your fellow moderator, LeBeau, who expressed the fear that a meeting with Lays' widow may provoke a spewing of venom toward her.

My point has only been one of noticing the lack of empathy for a convicy's death.

Atalie - I made no presumptions. Only observations. All I said was something along the lines of the appearance that some convicts/criminals evoke sympathy or empathy, but Lay doesn't seem to be one of them.

I said something to the effect of some people ruining lives with bullets and some ruining retirements with a pen, and the one with the pen seems to be being met with a certain amount of happiness over the ordeal.

Maybe Free Fall called it when she noted the hypocrisy. But seeing the endless threads about how PTO families are put through hell by society, society being happy that a meth lab was busted and the people going through hell taking their families with them, SOs never getting a break anywhere they go, and so on, it's surprising to see such an open display of the same attitudes toward Lay amd his crime, and the moderator's comment regarding Lay's widow.

Maybe this means that people who feel this way toward Lay could go into those threads and explain why people have such a feeling toward convicts. Maybe it'd be better understood or accepted if one PTO member explained to another how it's perfectly normal that someone could harbor such ill will toward a man because of his race or class or crime. Nah.

I'm not passing any judgement on anyone regarding their crime or their treatment of convicts. I'm ONLY making an observation. I noticed that what some people call the hell society puts them through is the same attutides that some PTO members have toward some convicts and even their families. I guess I wasn't supposed to notice.

Last edited by jameslo; 07-09-2006 at 06:01 PM..
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  #38  
Old 07-09-2006, 06:31 PM
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You were observing a small percentage of PTO! I was not represented. If you go and read my post I simply agreed with FedX. I agree with you that there are non-supportive opinions here, but this is a discussion thread, and people are going to let down their guard a little and express strong opinions. I personally feel no animosity toward Mr. Lay, he did not hurt me or mine. I do feel white collar crimes need to be treated as the crimes that they are. And let me add I abhor crime and what criminals do, including the crimes my brother was convicted of. I do, however, love my brother and do not want him treated in an inhumane manner, but I do not resent inmates who did lesser crimes and got less time. We are all in the same boat here, and I am very sorry you have judged all of PTO by the comments of a few.
Crone, you are correct about the part of his statements you quoted, I too agree with them, I do not agree with the rest.
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Old 07-09-2006, 06:45 PM
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Actually, I agreed with everything that Jameslo said. I only highlighted the things I felt even more strongly about.

Look, Jameslo clearly stated that she wasn't defending Lay. Jameslo isn't looking for an argument yet people seem to want to attack Jameslo's post. Jameslo is only saying that we're here for love, support, compassion and some understanding. Being negative and attacking another criminal will only breed more negativity.

The man just died. A little respect for his passing is appropriate.
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Old 07-09-2006, 08:12 PM
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I do not have a problem with Jameslo feeling Mr Lay should be shown respect and compassion; that is what PTO is about, but PTO is also filled with imperfect people. Just because in this instance some people had a knee jerk reaction does not mean that they are not generally good people who try hard to offer support and kindness. I guess what I objected to was it sounding like Jameslo was making an indictment against PTO in general and not just this thread. So maybe I had a knee jerk reaction, but hey I am human to and believe it or not I try to be supportive and as kind as I can be, but on occassion I get a little riled up to.
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Old 07-10-2006, 12:22 PM
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Please reread my posts. I judged no one. I only commented on my observations.
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Old 07-10-2006, 12:37 PM
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We are all susceptible to hypocrisy—I certainly am—but within this forum there are countless posts where any unsupportiveness or lack of compassion has been immediately chastised by both members and admins. That didn’t happen here. The presumption is that the exception is “unless we’re talking about somebody with a lot of money.”

I also have no sympathy for Mr. Lay. I was pleased to see him convicted, and I think he was about to get exactly what he deserved. I just didn’t think I could get away with saying that here. And I don’t think I could have gotten away with it if I had said it about—well, about your loved one (“you” being whomever is reading this post).

Let’s just try this experiment. Let’s replace the original post with a fictitious one. How long do you think this thread would last before a horde of members started screaming about compassion and an administrator smacked it down?

Post:

Joe Smith, inmate of ABC Prison, died today prior to sentencing for robbing a bank, killing a person, dealing drugs, molesting a child, beating up his wife, or whatever crime your loved one is accused of.

Responses:

*Now Aint That Some Sh**!!!!!! Hummmmmmmmm!!!!!!

*I find it hard to believe that he's really dead...Where is he really????!!!

* i bet you the other guy who went on trial with him is kicking himself in the @$$ b/c Lay got out of the prison time.... and he didn't.....

* I honestly think that he got off easy, with all the hearthache that he caused not only the Enron employees and investors, but the rest of America. That scandal changed America finally forever.

* First thought in my head when I read the news was "That Chickensh%! Mutha%@#!er!!!!!" How dare he bail out the easy way! Especially having previously been the darling among the right wing, "law and order" crowd... My mom figures he's actually on some island with no extradition treaty.

* i was thinking that he faked his own death, but then again, the stress of impending prison probably killed him.

* …what's a long prison term? if it's more than 5 years, i say hallelujah. coporate
america has been getting away with murder for years and serving days for crimes that the rest of us would surely be hung for.

* didn't know if to laugh or cry when I heard of his death.

* I was pissed!!! Then I was trippin' because now he can't roll on Bush. Then I was tweaked because he doesn't have to experience prison like all the rest. Dayum!
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Old 07-10-2006, 01:14 PM
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Please let's keep this thread on topic which is the fact that Ken Lay has died. Any more off topic posts will be removed.
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Old 07-10-2006, 01:46 PM
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I read an article that pretty much stated that white-collar criminals suffer more while going through the criminal justice system and that drug offenders are used to the stress due to the nature of their crimes. What baloney. We ALL suffered in one form or another.
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Old 07-10-2006, 01:46 PM
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I don't feel sorry for Ken Lay, what about all the money he stole? I would not be suprised if he kil;led himself. What about all our men that are doing a ample amount of time for BS. Maybe you want to call it cold hearted, maybe not! He's a dirt bag and RIP to SCUM!
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Old 07-10-2006, 11:03 PM
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DaveMoff DaveMoff is offline
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"As through this world I've wandered
I've seen lots of funny men
Some will rob you with a six-gun
And some with a fountain pen"--Woody Guthrie.

Could there possibly be better fodder for conspiracy theorists?
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"If Darlie Routier is really innocent, that only proves that I am a great lawyer" --Greg Davis, Dallas County Prosecutor, during a broadcast interview.

THIS NUT WON'T CRACK

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