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  #26  
Old 07-28-2019, 05:33 PM
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I disagree that most prisoners are bad people, although many prison employees wouldn't agree with me, the same COs who believe that anything an inmate says has to be a lie.

What mass incarceration in the US has accomplished is to take prison from where it was, a punishment for bad people who commit terrible crimes, to a place that is more like a neighborhood or church get together. Far too many federal prisoners would never have been convicted of any crime, let alone felonies, until recent history.

It's interesting to me that many of the "tough on crime" folks are the same ones who also yearn for a return to the "good old days", but ignore the fact that it would also cut our prison/jail populations drastically. It must only be some of the good old days that they hope for.

Here's an article from the February 2018 State Factor. a publication of the American Legislative Exchange Council that discusses "The Number of Laws "Criminalizing Innocent Conduct".
https://www.alec.org/app/uploads/201...r-Mens-Rea.pdf
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  #27  
Old 07-28-2019, 05:38 PM
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[To clarify: my response is to yourself's post above]

No need to call me grandiose and get patronizing. I'm on the same side of this debate, after all.

Humans as a species are pretty awful to one another -- no need for advanced studies on that. They've been killing each other and continue to kill and objectify each other as 'the other' since humans first started walking this planet. To say that we've been brutal to one another is a vast understatement.

CO's chosen to push the plunger are picked precisely because they don't work alongside the inmate -- in order to be in a better position to objectify that person. The CO's who deal with the DR inmates daily have come to know them as 3-D persons, not cartoons.

Everyone has a threshold for objectification. The CO who developed PTSD in the Herzog film only got it after he was part of the execution of a woman. Before then, he'd been part of many executions and it didn't affect him in the way the woman did. Was he sexist? I hardly think it's that simple. Anyway.

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  #28  
Old 07-28-2019, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by fbopnomore View Post
I disagree that most prisoners are bad people, although many prison employees wouldn't agree with me, the same COs who believe that anything an inmate says has to be a lie.

What mass incarceration in the US has accomplished is to take prison from where it was, a punishment for bad people who commit terrible crimes, to a place that is more like a neighborhood or church get together. Far too many federal prisoners would never have been convicted of any crime, let alone felonies, until recent history.

It's interesting to me that many of the "tough on crime" folks are the same ones who also yearn for a return to the "good old days", but ignore the fact that it would also cut our prison/jail populations drastically. It must only be some of the good old days that they hope for.

Here's an article from the February 2018 State Factor. a publication of the American Legislative Exchange Council that discusses "The Number of Laws "Criminalizing Innocent Conduct".
https://www.alec.org/app/uploads/201...r-Mens-Rea.pdf
Thanks for that reminder -- yes, it is absolutely true that we (speaking as a nation here, lol), are criminalizing everyday behavior, and I do find it sinister. Personally, I have no first-hand knowledge about the average prison population, but, as members on here are fond of reminding us routinely, prisoners aren't in there because they're choirboys (or girls, as the case may be). I don't know what an 'average' conviction is, so I'm out of my depth. Obviously, no one breaking a patent law on a slogan or making a copy of a movie for private home use should be classified as a bad person and sent to prison.
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Old 07-28-2019, 07:03 PM
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I absolutely do not think just because a person is in Prison, that it automatically makes them a Bad person, I believe that most are Good people that made a mistake. From your statement I gather you feel that your LO is a Bad person, on the other hand my Son is a Good person, that possibly made a bad mistake. I also think that anyone who isn’t severely Mentally affected by being involved in an execution is a Sociopath.
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Old 07-28-2019, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taliba00 View Post
[To clarify: my response is to yourself's post above]

No need to call me grandiose and get patronizing. I'm on the same side of this debate, after all.

Humans as a species are pretty awful to one another -- no need for advanced studies on that. They've been killing each other and continue to kill and objectify each other as 'the other' since humans first started walking this planet. To say that we've been brutal to one another is a vast understatement.

CO's chosen to push the plunger are picked precisely because they don't work alongside the inmate -- in order to be in a better position to objectify that person. The CO's who deal with the DR inmates daily have come to know them as 3-D persons, not cartoons.

Everyone has a threshold for objectification. The CO who developed PTSD in the Herzog film only got it after he was part of the execution of a woman. Before then, he'd been part of many executions and it didn't affect him in the way the woman did. Was he sexist? I hardly think it's that simple. Anyway.
The CO in the Herzog film is just one of many. You should hear some of the former wardens and even a few chaplains who have participated. Carlos de Luna did it for one chaplain. A few other questionable inmates did it for the former Texas warden.

The system is sexist. Currently, it benefits women when it comes to death sentences. The statistics are pretty incredible - it is not the crime that gets women on a gurney, it is the woman. Attractive women are far less likely to ever face death for the same crime as unattractive women. But, hey, if you want to get into sexism and the system, start a different thread. Don't resort to calling a guard with PTSD sexist because he reached his emotional threshold for killing people when he had to kill a woman.

If you really feel the need to educate me about the death penalty in the US, give me some basis for understanding where you are coming from. Maybe then we can discuss why and when and under what circumstances the death penalty can be abolished.

Until then, this is a thread on trump throwing his weight around in order to play politics with people's lives.
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  #31  
Old 07-28-2019, 10:46 PM
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The CO in the Herzog film is just one of many. You should hear some of the former wardens and even a few chaplains who have participated. Carlos de Luna did it for one chaplain. A few other questionable inmates did it for the former Texas warden.
I don't recall if it was the Herzog doc, but the role that struck me as about as far removed from the killing of an inmate and yet someone still affected-- kitchen staff. A last meal request has to be filled by someone. Someone has to read the order, place the order, prepare the order, plate the order, deliver the order. And every step they know they are doing it for someone who is about to die-- not naturally.

A cook. I cannot support a law that requires a cook to bear the emotional burden of participating in sterilized, legalized, homicide.

For what it's worth, I was once pro death penalty. I could justify cases (elevating act over actor, removing my judgement from the person just as gvalliant described) that would warrant that level of punishment on the perpetrator. It was my husband who first challenged me to think differently. Though he is a long-term inmate, he isn't on DR nor a lifer. He is a former gang member; someone who once stood behind an ideology that upheld the killing of people for much less than the crimes these five men are scheduled to die for. I was shocked when he told me he was against it. So we had a conversation about it. His biggest argument was that part of the purpose of incarceration was to remove an unsafe person from society. Yes, the death penalty does that, but so does life without except that LWOP carries potential for something positive. I argued that life without wasn't much of a life (uff, time to grow). I got an earful. But I heard him and I couldn't argue in response. He was speaking from experience. So much of his own growth has come from men who did heinous things and are paying for that with the total loss of their freedom. If their sentence had been capital, my husband would have never met them, never benefited from their lessons learned, their friendship, their hard-earned wisdom. We would have removed one man from life by lethal injection, and put another countless number of lives in a deficit by his absence.
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  #32  
Old 07-29-2019, 01:31 AM
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I never thought of the poor Kitchen Staff, what torture they must feel, damn. And just having to know they are going to go through this 5 times in just 5 weeks, I can’t even fathom how they are going to be able to get through that, it’s going to alter their lives for ever, and that’s just the ones going through the Federal Christmas Murders, not to forget the ones that came before and they ones who will be murdered after, my heart is breaking for the Living, Breathing, Men/Women that are forced to endure while trapped in the confines of Prison with no choice except to do as they are forced. The COs could quit, they have a choice to take themselves out of this situation. When will the World wake up?
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Old 08-01-2019, 12:59 PM
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that progress is being made, they change the course, and stick to what they know best...idiots.
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Old 08-01-2019, 08:40 PM
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I don't recall if it was the Herzog doc, but the role that struck me as about as far removed from the killing of an inmate and yet someone still affected-- kitchen staff. A last meal request has to be filled by someone. Someone has to read the order, place the order, prepare the order, plate the order, deliver the order. And every step they know they are doing it for someone who is about to die-- not naturally.

A cook. I cannot support a law that requires a cook to bear the emotional burden of participating in sterilized, legalized, homicide.

For what it's worth, I was once pro death penalty. I could justify cases (elevating act over actor, removing my judgement from the person just as gvalliant described) that would warrant that level of punishment on the perpetrator. It was my husband who first challenged me to think differently. Though he is a long-term inmate, he isn't on DR nor a lifer. He is a former gang member; someone who once stood behind an ideology that upheld the killing of people for much less than the crimes these five men are scheduled to die for. I was shocked when he told me he was against it. So we had a conversation about it. His biggest argument was that part of the purpose of incarceration was to remove an unsafe person from society. Yes, the death penalty does that, but so does life without except that LWOP carries potential for something positive. I argued that life without wasn't much of a life (uff, time to grow). I got an earful. But I heard him and I couldn't argue in response. He was speaking from experience. So much of his own growth has come from men who did heinous things and are paying for that with the total loss of their freedom. If their sentence had been capital, my husband would have never met them, never benefited from their lessons learned, their friendship, their hard-earned wisdom. We would have removed one man from life by lethal injection, and put another countless number of lives in a deficit by his absence.
A cook who used to prepare the final meal for Texas inmates back when Texas allowed choice in final meals commented along the lines of taking great care to prepare the meal knowing that in just a few short hours, that meal would become stomach contents in an autopsy. Sobering.
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