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  #26  
Old 06-20-2016, 10:07 PM
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Gotta remember that the rubric used means that all but the repeat offender are going to get less, in some cases much less than the maximum.

What totally freaks people out is arraignment, when a judge tells you the maximum sentence and fine that you face with those particular charges. Wow. Most people who are not experienced with the system look at those numbers and have a heart attack. My parents did the first time my brother was charged with something.

You need the help of an experienced lawyer in your jurisdiction (and I fully agree with PPretender here in that it's not always a private attorney) to navigate what's really at stake, and to help you mitigate if at all possible to swing the sentencing rubric that the Prosecutor uses a bit over to your side, shaving days/weeks/months/years off a sentence.

How to find a good, experienced lawyer? Don't go by gray hair - oldest person in my law school class was in his 50's. Now he's experienced, but looking at retirement. Use the State Bar website, or do an internet search for the disciplinary committee for attorneys in your state. You'll be able to see the date of admission in your state, other states of admission, and there may even be links to disciplinary hearings if any. This is where you start.

Then, you head to your state courts website. Most allow you to "search by attorney" so you can see how many criminal cases that attorney has handled since the courts got online. You'll be able to click on cases to see what they are. Most states also have a basic convention for designating civil cases from criminal cases. Criminal cases usually have different designates based on felony or misdemeanor, DUI, and maybe even type of felony. You should be able to get that information online as well. Btw, "search by attorney" may not give you a ton of information for a public defender as the PD's office may be listed as the attorney of record - just a head's up - works better for private and court appointeds in the private sector.

Now, you're not looking for outcomes, you're looking for cases similar to yours. If you've got an attorney licensed in more than one state, do the same in that state - it'll help you determine how much time that attorney spends in your jurisdiction and what that attorney's focus is. Imho, you want somebody who has a decent caseload - not somebody where you go, "wow, when does that guy/gal sleep?", but not where you're going, "what was s/he doing for 2007-2010? or for 6 months last year?" Decent, steady casework in the criminal felony division. Look at the cases - are they all low level felonies (Class 3-4 in IL), or are they mostly higher level (Class 2-X)? How often does s/he go to trial? You don't want somebody who's always in trial, but you don't want to see somebody who hasn't been to trial in years.

Once you've done all of that legwork, you're going to want to hit up your friends, family, and neighbors. You know the friends, family, and neighbors I'm talking about - people have gossiped about them for years, usually in hushed tones at a cocktail party around the new year. They're the ones where you get the end of year update of the family and one of the kids is conspicuously missing. Yeah, those people. They've all been in a situation similar to you. Talk with them about their experiences. Ask them who they used and what their impression is like. If they recognize a kindred spirit, they may talk your ear off for an hour or two, but you'll get important information on how they chose their attorney and their overall impression of that attorney.

Finally, look to the attorneys in your life. You can't be upper middle-class without having had an attorney or two in your life. Talk with the attorney who did your real estate deal, and the one who does your estate planning, and if you have a past divorce, the one who did that. They're probably not the ones who can handle this sort of representation, but they may know who can, and may have a general impression of the quality of work those attorneys do.

It sounds like you've interviewed more than 3 attorneys for this job. Good. Nobody taking a private lawyer should hire the first person to come along. Interviewing several attorneys is a really good move. Now do the rest of your due diligence.

Btw, that $100,000 price tag? If that's far and away bigger than anybody else you talked with - that's an attorney/office who doesn't want the job and is trying to price it out of your league. Just my opinion, but that stuff happens. But, you never know - maybe his/her services are worth it. Somebody came up with the Twinkie defense and sold it back in the '70's.
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  #27  
Old 06-20-2016, 10:38 PM
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Just FYI: my son's crime was home invasion (x's and his home). This was a first offense - only offense. He has an associates degree and comes from an upper middle class family.

And nope...no lawyer would take it to trial - he was told he could get up to 60 years (2 counts) and if trial, he would probably get more than what plea bargain would get.

As we had five opinions from five different lawyers (five different firms) NOT to go to trial, we figured majority rules.
Home invasion is VERY serious crime,granted this is his first offense so tell him to beg for mercy to the judge(if he has to cry tell him to do it).Tell him to tell the judge his not a threat to society and this was a big mistake and wont happen again.And my other suggestion is if his in jail awaiting trial or for a court date.He needs to become a "informant" find out about other inmate's cases and give the information to the state in return he can become a witness.And this way the DA can lower his sentence for cooperating and helping them.This works 70% of the time if he plays his cards right remeber to tell him do ANYTHING as possible to get your freedom back.I pray and hope for good results for your son God Bless...
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  #28  
Old 06-21-2016, 03:21 AM
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Home invasion is VERY serious crime,granted this is his first offense so tell him to beg for mercy to the judge(if he has to cry tell him to do it).Tell him to tell the judge his not a threat to society and this was a big mistake and wont happen again.And my other suggestion is if his in jail awaiting trial or for a court date.He needs to become a "informant" find out about other inmate's cases and give the information to the state in return he can become a witness.And this way the DA can lower his sentence for cooperating and helping them.This works 70% of the time if he plays his cards right remeber to tell him do ANYTHING as possible to get your freedom back.I pray and hope for good results for your son God Bless...
No. Just no. He needs to listen to his attorney
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  #29  
Old 06-21-2016, 05:34 PM
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Thanks everyone - this thread has truly opened my eyes. My son's case actually occurred almost three years ago now.

We did end up going with an attorney who charged a middle of the road amt who had experience with class X offenses and who had defended them in this itsy bitsy county.

I was especially impressed that this attorney didn't only want to talk to me but instead wanted to meet my son and was willing to travel the 50+ miles to do so at no expense to me to ensure that my son was confident in his ability to represent him. He actually visited him twice in jail BEFORE we even agreed to having him represent our son.

The plea bargain was a brutal process - you are so right - it is all about the numbers. Nothing else. We started at high double figures at 100%, ended up at <10 year at 85% - still an impressive amt of time for the actual crime that was committed but....there is no going back.

My son is not 18, he is an adult who made a terrible decision which he will deal with for the rest of his life. He (and us as his parents) have cried more in the last few years than ever before, but in the end, all the tears in the world couldn't save him from himself.

I truly appreciate all this info - it really shed a lot of light on this situation.

I want to add that even now the attorney that we used still is willing to answer my occasional question that my son has and is always polite and quick to return my calls so I think this indicates that we made the right decision....
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  #30  
Old 06-21-2016, 09:24 PM
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No. Just no. He needs to listen to his attorney
Were did I say he shouldnt listen to his attorney?I was putting more suggestions to find other alternative routes too many defendants listen to their attorney and take guilty pleas so they can be removed off the heavy case load of public defenders.

Last edited by someguyfrommars; 06-21-2016 at 09:27 PM..
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  #31  
Old 06-21-2016, 09:46 PM
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Were did I say he shouldnt listen to his attorney?I was putting more suggestions to find other alternative routes too many defendants listen to their attorney and take guilty pleas so they can be removed off the heavy case load of public defenders.
there's a difference between a guilty plea and a blind plea and any decent PD or private attorney knows when to blind plea.

Further, any time there is a guilty plea or a blind plea, the defendant is given a chance to speak. At that time, the defendant should say his piece, a piece that includes suggestions and reasoning made by the attorney so that the defendant gets the best possible outcome, and sets him up for the earliest parole if relevant. Further, the PD or private attorney will instruct the defendant to start collecting letters of support and having them sent to the attorney for a myriad of reasons that I'm not going to get into atm.

Crying, "I'm sorry, I didn't mean it!" and producing crocodile tears is bullshit - it lacks the requirements necessary to show true remorse, to take actual responsibility for the crime and the stuff that went into committing the crime, fails to demonstrate an understanding of how the crime effected the victim(s), and does nothing to show an understanding of what can be done to make sure that such a crime is never committed again.

But, histrionics are always an available avenue to the pro se litigant who doesn't know better. It's right up there with invoking the wrath of God should the judge not let you go/give you the sentence you want.

You want to actually help the PD? Read what PP wrote in his/her original post. You want to fuck with what the PD can do for you? Hit the law library when you have no idea how to do the books or what issues may or may not apply to you. Or, throw a fit in front of the judge at sentencing.

As for becoming an informant on others he may be housed with - the former inmates that cruise these boards can tell you exactly how helpful that one is. There's the phrase, "snitches get stitches" and from what I've seen, stitches is the best they can hope for with the jury of other inmates.
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  #32  
Old 06-22-2016, 12:13 AM
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Were did I say he shouldnt listen to his attorney?I was putting more suggestions to find other alternative routes too many defendants listen to their attorney and take guilty pleas so they can be removed off the heavy case load of public defenders.
Nope. For every defendant who helped himself out by not listening to his lawyer (and I admit this does happen occasionally), 10 or 20 others screw themselves by not listening to their attorneys.

Jailhouse gossip is, in particular, the enemy of good outcomes. Rumors go around the jail, 99% of them not true, that cause people to make bad decisions. Here are some examples:

About once a year, all my in-custody clients, and all my colleagues' in-custody clients, suddenly want to fire me/us at the same time. Why? Usually some completely untrue rumor has gone around that getting a new lawyer will get you a better deal. Personally, in the many, many years I have been doing this work, I've never had a client fire me and get a better deal, and I've had several get WORSE deals, but that doesn't stop the "I want to fire my PD because it will get me a better deal" rumor from going around like clockwork.

Various in-vogue "defenses" start circulating either because one person in the jail or on the street used it successfully in one case that usually bears no relationship to the cases of the people wanting to use it, and now everyone thinks it's a magic solution. For example, a couple of years ago the big rumor was that you couldn't be convicted of possession of a gun/drugs unless the police actually saw you holding the item in question. All of a sudden all my clients started telling me they weren't going to plead because the gun/meth/pot was merely nearby, so the cops couldn't prove it was theirs, and a couple even insisted on going to trial with this ridiculous "defense" (and lost).

Then there is the ever-present rumor that you never take the first deal you are offered because everyone gets three offers. This "rule" may be true in some jurisdictions but isn't in mine--I've had people decline their plea offers to wait for the next one, only the next one never came, and they end up with more time.

Clients who think they know more than I do about how the system works are the bain of my existence and, more often than not, the enemy of good outcomes in their case.

Now, don't get me wrong--I don't mind questions. Your cellie tell you that completing substance abuse while in custody can reduce your time to 50%? Sure, ask me about that, so I can tell you that was a law that was proposed 10 years ago but has never passed, and that I'm sure this is true because I've had clients asking me about it at least once a month for the last 10 years since it was first introduced. You hear a rumor that you could do your last year in a work furlough program? Ask me, so I can tell you that doesn't apply to people like you who are accused of violent crimes. But please don't start telling me what the law is. Because I promise you, you're wrong.

I've personally never told someone to plead guilty because I wanted to clear him off my caseload. If I'm telling you to plead guilty, it's for one reason, and one reason alone: I know you're guilty, and I do not think you can win at trial. I don't tell clients to plead guilty if they're saying they didn't do it, and I don't tell clients to plead (even if I know they're guilty) if I think they have a decent shot at trial.

Don't want to listen to my advice? Fine. Trials are fun for me (especially when the client is guilty, and I don't have the pressure of worrying that an innocent man is going to end up in jail), and I'm not the one who's going to end up serving a sentence that's twice as long as the one that was offered with the plea.
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  #33  
Old 11-25-2016, 03:45 PM
luvmyboo luvmyboo is offline
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Default Anyone know about NYS Prisoner's Assistance Center????

Curious about this organization before i call them.
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  #34  
Old 11-25-2016, 05:48 PM
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Curious about this organization before i call them.
Okay, I was just going to ignore this until it was given its own thread. It has nothing to do with "helping your public defender".

You're asking about a company in NY, and you want to know if it's any good. I have no experience with them. Here's how I'd evaluate them, if I was considering sending a client to them:

1. I'd look at the overall composition of their website. Is it commensurate with other websites in the legal profession, or is it dated, using a lot of free throw a website together stuff? If the former, I'd feel more comfortable.

2. Are there readily identifiable attorneys associated with the site? If yes, you can be more confident it's legit, and you can check those attorneys out. If no, I'd run. Fwiw, here's the NYCLU legal staff for a comparison: http://www.nyclu.org/node/1022#legal

I would keep in mind that only an attorney licensed in that state can do stuff for your LO, can appear in a parole hearing with your LO, and can present information for your LO (there may be a small number of states where there's a certification process for non-lawyers, but this is rare, and even those who are certified would plaster that certification all over the place, along with the rest of their academic background). Everybody else would be practicing law without a licensed, probably won't actually show up at the hearing with your LO, and would put together some sort of "report" that your LO would then submit. Your LO would then be responsible for the content of that report. If it's screwed up, you won't have the ability to go after the preparer's malpractice insurance for monetary damages, and you wouldn't have the right to appeal due to inadequate counsel.

I would also keep in mind that a licensed attorney will be somebody you can check with the state licensing board. You can check the number of complaints, the number of outstanding complaints, the types and number of published disciplinary actions taken against the attorney, whether the attorney has malpractice insurance, how long they've been licensed, other states where the attorney has a license, etc.

Basically, if there's no readily identified attorney associated with the entity, I'd run as fast as I could away from the entity.

3. If, for some reason, I still went forward, I'd watch for any language such that paralegals are the ones handling the work. Paralegals cannot appear on behalf of anybody. It's the Unlicensed Practice of Law, a felony in most states. Paralegals work for actual attorneys, under their direction. If no actual attorney is mentioned, go back to number 2 and run. Further, you should know that in many states anybody can hold themselves out to be paralegals. Anybody. Got a 3rd grade education and want to call yourself a paralegal? Go right a head. The good paralegals are the ones who have certification from a 2 year college that includes passing a national test. AND they work for actual, licensed attorneys. They take their direction from those attorneys.

4. I'd watch for any language that asks you to sign a waiver that acknowledges you are not hiring them to practice law for you. Appearance at a parole hearing is the practice of law. Preparing documents to be used in a parole hearing is the practice of law. You cannot waive a state requirement because they want you to and threaten that your LO will not be paroled if you don't get help. Look for the hard sell. If you experience it, run away.

5. I don't know a single, legitimate attorney who accepts PayPal.

6. Representation by a legitimate attorney starts with signing a representation contract. It lays out exactly what the representation entails including the attorney's obligations to the client as well as the cost of that work. In criminal law, it is usually a flat fee or an hourly rate. The payer's ability to pay is figured into the whole thing, so if you can't afford to hire a bunch of psychologists or something, you're not going to be told that psychological testing fees and the like must be paid for separately. Payment for services without those services being enumerated to the letter simply do not happen.

7. Any paralegal should be willing to give you the name of the attorney s/he works with. You should be signing that contract with the attorney. You should be meeting with the attorney prior to signing the contract. You should be given plenty of time to check out that attorney before signing the retention contract. Again, watch for the hard sell. If you are pressured, run.

8. Watch out for promises of results. No attorney can ethically guarantee a result. Neither can a legitimate paralegal working for an attorney. If somebody promises you a result - he'll be free in 6 months, say - run.

Anyway, that's a short list.
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  #35  
Old 02-20-2017, 07:44 AM
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I'm a public defender. I'm glad sites like this exist as a support group for people dealing with incarceration issues, which I understand are stressful and difficult to navigate. I thought I'd give back to the community by letting y'all know, from the perspective of a public defender, what you guys can do to help get the best legal outcome for your loved one.

1) Be there for your loved one. Being arrested is stressful and overwhelming. If they're not out on bond, prisoners can't do much, and it's really helpful to have a present and supportive family member. I think defendants also make better decisions about their cases when their focus is on their case and not on whether their family will stand by them if they take a plea/don't take a plea/etc.

2) Stop calling me. Unless you were a witness to the alleged crime or otherwise have personal knowledge of facts relevant to the alleged crime, there's probably no reason I ever need to speak to you. That may sound harsh, but it's really in your loved one's best interests. At any given time, I have approximately 40 clients. If every one of those clients has a family member (and many of them have more than one!) who wants to speak to me just 20 minutes a week, that's 13.3 hours a week I'm on the phone with family members. That's 13.3 hours a week (1/3 of a full 40-hour work week!) that I'm not working on your loved ones' cases. I'm not a monster, and if you're calling me because you want to know when your loved one's next court date is or because you need directions to the courthouse, I will try to return your call within a few days to let you know this information, but realize that literally every minute I'm on the phone with you is a minute I'm not spending working on someone's case, and that someone may be your loved one. If you have ANY OTHER WAY of getting the information you want to call me about, please use that instead.

3) I'm a criminal defense lawyer, not a counselor, psychologist, personal assistant, or Google substitute. Please don't call me to ask me what the visiting hours are at the jail, to ask how you can put money on your loved one's commissary account, to tell me that your loved one doesn't like the food at the prison, or to ask why the money you sent hasn't been deposited to his account. Again, because I'm not a monster, if I am at all able I will probably take your call and give you as much information as I can provided it's not the 10th time you've called this week asking a similar question outside the scope of my job responsibilities, but see above re: every minute I spend giving you commissary instructions is a minute I'm not working on your loved one's case. Please also don't ask me for legal advice outside my fiend of expertise. I don't know, for example, how your loved one is supposed to file his taxes when he's behind bars--I didn't even take tax in law school, have never done my own taxes, have no earthly idea, and don't have 5 hours to spend finding out.

4) Please don't ask me details related to the facts of your loved one's case. When a client gives me permission, I generally do my best to keep family members generally informed about general scheduling issues, whether a plea offer has been extended, etc., but you and I don't have a confidential relationship and, if your loved one's case were to go to trial, literally everything I have ever said to you could end up being disclosed to the prosecution. Please don't ask me to discuss the evidence with you or to tell you my defense strategy. I can't. It's a bad idea. It's a violation of client confidentiality, an example of really bad lawyering, and potentially harmful to your loved one. Also, if your loved one is trying to discuss any of that with you over a (recorded!!!) jail call, it's a good time to remind him to stop, too. I know you want to know what's going on. But you're not the one who has been arrested for a crime, and you're going to have to trust your loved one to make his own decisions.

5) Don't ask me if you should hire a "real lawyer." It's pretty insulting, and the answer is that I honestly don't care. I get paid a flat salary. My income does not depend on the number of hours I work or the number of clients I have. If you want to hire private counsel for your loved one's case, it doesn't affect me at all, and I wish you all the best. But I am, in fact, a real lawyer. I graduated from law school and spent a number of years in private practice (where those "real lawyers" you want to hire work) before voluntarily taking a 50% pay cut to become a public defender because I honestly care about the rights of criminal defendants, and I think that people who can't afford lawyers deserve high quality representation. Could I make more money in private practice? Sure. I'm not in it for the money. Are there bad public defenders? Sure. But there are bad private counsel, too. In 2009 when the financial crisis hit, my office laid off a ton of lawyers because of budget cuts. With only a few exceptions, my office took this as an opportunity to get rid of the "dead weight" around the office. Where did this "dead weight" go? A few retired but most set up their own shops and are now serving as private counsel.

6) Don't expect miracles. In 99% of all cases, there are only two ways out: 1) plead guilty, or 2) go to trial. I'm happy to take any case to trial if a client wants to go. I've won a lot of cases at trial. I've also occasionally gotten cases dismissed without ever having to go to trial, either by threatening trial in a case where the evidence was very weak or by filing motions that have gotten key evidence thrown out. But this is an exceptional situation and not the norm. I do the very best I can for every one of my clients and am ALWAYS looking for ways to make cases go away entirely. I have NEVER pushed anyone to plead guilty if they were telling me they didn't do it, and I have NEVER tried to get out of trying a case because I don't want to do the work. But if your loved one is, in fact, guilty and there is overwhelming evidence of his guilt (and this is the case for a large percentage of my clients, though obviously not all of them), his options are pretty limited. "I don't like my plea deal; I think it's too much time" is not a defense at trial. And if your loved one is on video tape robbing a bank while holding a gun, I don't have a ton of leverage to demand that the prosecutor give him a better offer.
Great selection by a public defender - although I can't agree with some statements. You should expect a miracle in order for it to happen - and the stats provided is correct. Also, the poster is a notable exception, but there ARE some PD who neglect their cases completely to the point when they don't attend court hearings etc.
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Old 06-12-2017, 12:47 AM
HisHarleyQ HisHarleyQ is offline
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I appreciate this post by the OP. This is the first time i've deal with my loved one, especially my s/o going to jail!
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