Errant guards are not prone to be honest, but if they were when you asked them about their abuse, they'd undoubtably share Charles Graner's sentiment:

“The Christian in me says it’s wrong, but the corrections officer in me says, ’I love to make a grown man piss himself.’" ~Spec. Charles A. Graner Jr., Pennsylvania prison guard in Iraq,

The Washington Post, Saturday, May 22, 2004, http://www.detnews.com/2004/nation/0405/22/nation-160330.htm

I was just :angry: :fb: :mad: :argh: :shake: :banghead: :slap:


I was so angry when I read this and this is a man that did the same thing to Nicky and others while he was employed by PA DOC and he is still getting $500.00 a month pay from PA DOC while he is on active duty.

grrrrrrrrrrrrr
softie

Softie, I'm, as we say in England, gobsmacked!! Words fail me. Of course I know that COs all over America will agree with what he said, we all know that, but to see it in print and with no shame on his part, is just beyond words!!!

Rose

Oh. My. God. that is disgusting.

disguisting. and there are a lot of people who are not in law enforcement who mirror that sentiment. I have heard many disturbing things from seemingly normal people who identify as christians.

I think that the difference here is that you have american prisoners and you have Iraq prisoners. And if you were a CO you would treat your prisoners a lot different than the Iraq ones that you knew where the ones killing our own kind and family in a brutal war no matter who's fault is this. Have you guys ever seen the video of them cutting the guys head off?? Its sick

Dainelle here is an article that I posted about Charles Graner and what he was like while working at the PA DOC. Nicky Yarris is a friend of mine and DNA exnorated him after almost 23 years on DR.

http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60418

Graner beat Nicky regularly and several other prisoners, if you read the article you will find he was investegated for his treatment of American prisoners. He acted no different in Iraq then he did while employed by the PA DOC

Yes I have viewed the film of Nicholas Berg's being beheaded and it was awful. But saying that is a reason for us to beat and treat prisoners of war as we did is wrong. That would be like saying every inmate is like Ted Bundy. berg was beheaded by a terriost group, not by the citizens of Iraq.
That would be like holding everyone in the US responsible for Tim McVeigh and the OK bombing. All though he was an American, it was not the American peoples fault.

Unfortunitly, the reason the Iraq prisoners were treated as they were was not because they were Iraqie, it has to do with power. The men and women who did it enjoy the power, just as Graner did while employed by the DOC.

His Statement to the press proves that he loves the power.


Men and women who fought along side of the ones who committ this horrible crime were appauled at what was happening. In fact it was one of them who reported it and got the pictures out, he refuse to be part of it.

softie

I could not agree more softie

Danielle,

I was not going to respond to this because of my military background. However, I am finding that I must respond for exactly that reason.

Mr. Graner, is not an example of the fine young men and women who are serving in the United States Military. Nor, is he an example of the majority of the co's who work in the nation's prisons.

Mr. Graner and those who participated in the abuse of Iraqi prisoners is plain and simple, put in military terms: a scumbag and frankly in my mind, the Uniform Code of Military Justice does not provide a punishment long enough for them.

The military is the American Society in microcosm. During my service I met men and women who I would follow into h*ll and on occasion did! Whose personal morales, dedication to country, their subordinates would not allow them under any circumstances to treat anyone, even a captured enemy combatant in a manner as this.

During my time in prison, the co I remember the most, is retired mililtary like myself.

She was and is firm but fair, to both inmate and co. If you got a ticket from her you deserved it, and I did.

If she was made aware of a co abusing an inmate in anyway, all h*ll came down on that co and she was the same with inmates. She was one of a few that was respected by both inmate and co, because she earned that respect.

Then I met men and women like Graner, both in the military and in prison. Believe me, what they were doing in Iraq, they are doing in prisons in the states, sometimes worse.

The military will not suffer their kind for long, unfortunately, the prison system in this country does, and in many cases actually encourages them to worse atrocities within the prison system.

I also saw the the tape of Berg's murder, it is horrible. However, that does not justify the actions of our military personnel in Abu Graib (spelling).

Though I, as will others will support their families if they find PTO, I believe that Graner and the others must be punished to the fullest extent allowed by the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

On a personal note, Softie, is a dear, dear friend of Linda and I, since I came home from prison in March of 2003, she has been a major support for my family.

I know that when she speaks of the abuse done to Nicky Yarris by Graner, it happened! I have heard Softie's hurt and anger over this abuse. There are many others here on PTO who can tell you stories of abuse as well.

It has to be stopped whether here or in Iraq.

Patti

Well folks you all make some really great points. I am an active member of CCAPD and nothing that Graner did is any different than what happens in our prison systems in the United States just read Richard Cartwright's Uncensored from Texas Death Row on the internet straight from Polunsky prison. He was on death row for more than 7 years and dealt with far worse humilation and abuse than those Iraqi prisoners did and for far longer. I believe when ever you put another human being in power over another humanbeing and tell that one who is in control that the other is bad or reckess to society, and can't be rehabilitated, they will not have respect for the other human being.

This is the problem with the prison system in the USA, we don't work to rehab while they are in the system we wait until they are in the halfway house in the real world when they are to suseptible to the "old life". The CO's aren't teachers or mentors they are oppressors of a system that tries to beat the person into the system instead of educated them into the system and there is a big difference. :thumbsup:

Let's be clear, he's a power-freak, and a sadist. That's true of many, many people. It's a separate issue about his position as a CO, although complaints about his behavior in PA certainly should have been a heads-up to the military never to put him in that position in their system. On the other hand, they need people like him to do the dirty-work. They don't want to get their own hands dirty, but they want someone else to get it done, which is just as sick.

and where did you get all of your information from? did the press spoon feed you your facts??
wake up and quit judging other people's situations that you know nothing about, as im sure you would not want other people to do with limited facts and ignorance

I think the central thought we all need to hold is that all of the individuals involved are human. The COs, the MPs, the SPs and prisoners of all kinds--all of them are human and have both good and bad qualities. Unfortunately, those in positions of authority tend to let the power go to their head. Remember: "Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely." (that's more or less the saying) Yes, the military should have checked into Graner's record before they placed him such a position; No, he should not have done what he did. For those who have been in a war or military action, you know the tension and chaos lends itself to aberrant behaviors. For those who have not "been there, done that," it is almost impossible to understand how it can happen. Even where my son is, far from any front, those in positions of authority tend to abuse it. It is a sign of human frailty. Argue against it as much as you can but it will remain a problem as long as humans are imperfect beings.

how about everybody has good and bad qualities;

graner was doing his job and got hung out to dry and the gov. used alleged events at his prison at home to make him out to be some monster; you really dont seem to get it, it didnt matter who was in that position there or in cuba or afghanistan, it was all the same and the bosses were calling for info, and it was info they got, by the means that they taught. there are tons of cases out there that havent made 60 minutes, all the same stuff, that involve hundreds of soldiers, and whole units. the same things happens, the gov. indentifies "a few bad apples" in each, and quietly puts them out of the military, only with no little or no jail time.

how that article (that was contained in that link above) misleads is that there was a statement put out that said that he was never named in any of that prison abuse there; the only misconduct was from tardiness;

and i think there is a certain amount of payback from a former inmate(sorry, even if he did turn out to be innocent); a chance to make a guard look bad, guys would line up for that.

as far as strip searches, sorry you have to raise your junk, but people have been known to hide razor blades, and other small weapons in all sorts of places. i mean i dont want my husband to have to be strip searched after every non-contact visit, but that is not my choice. but i would rather that than someones get murdered (whether he or she is a guard or inmate) because someone did not want to have to bend over and spread their cheeks.

Let's be clear, he's a power-freak, and a sadist. That's true of many, many people. It's a separate issue about his position as a CO, although complaints about his behavior in PA certainly should have been a heads-up to the military never to put him in that position in their system. On the other hand, they need people like him to do the dirty-work. They don't want to get their own hands dirty, but they want someone else to get it done, which is just as sick.

All those people at Abu Graibe were F*%ked up! That was the bottom line with that deal. Those people were treating their duty like it was some kind of frat party instead of serving in a war. The behavior of all those military personel was appauling and they deserved to go to prison. When you can not carry out your oath to protect and defend yet still do it according to the Geneva Convention and you got to abuse others, it is time for you to go to jail!

No that is not the bottom line, that is your opinion based on your sheep like mentality to regurgitate what some politician or journalist already spouted. Did it ocur to you that the politicians had an agenda and the press had an agenda and so you dear reader got pure b.s. about what went on there

Did you know that because of those soldiers following their orders that Saddam Hussein was caught. That is a fact. Undisputed. But you wont find that in any newspaper or coming out of Rumsfeld's mouth

Get off your couch...when people lobbed mortars at them daily, shot at them with a gun from their prison cell (yes that happened too), rioted to take soldiers hostage and kill them frequently, threw piss and s#*& at them, you can be sure it was not anything like a frat party

All those people at Abu Graibe were F*%ked up! That was the bottom line with that deal. Those people were treating their duty like it was some kind of frat party instead of serving in a war. The behavior of all those military personel was appauling and they deserved to go to prison. When you can not carry out your oath to protect and defend yet still do it according to the Geneva Convention and you got to abuse others, it is time for you to go to jail!

You can't judge all people in the Military by the actions of a few. I was in Iraq while the war was going on. We treated the people there with respect and dignity. We even gave them some of our food and water. Within any group of people there is always going to be a few bad apples.