I thought I would start a poll to see how everyone felt about the abuses being made public with regards to Iraqi prisoners. For those of you who may not be up to speed, pictures have been released where U.S. soldiers are posing and abusing prisoners. This includes a female soldier holding a leash attached to a nekkid Iraqi prisoner, prisoners with black bags over their heads, prisoners piled nekkid atop one another, and so on..
I hear there is a video out and about but have not seen it yet.

Please vote on the pole and feel free to post your responses here as well.

Thanks,
Fed-X

I put that the sodiers should be reprimanded. But I also think that some of them should go to jail for this........really the higher ups in comand. I think it's really sick, these pics, no regard for a fellow human being. Before I really found God and knew what He was all about,I would've been sickened by the photos,but I wouldn't have cared,cause they're not Americans. But now i know we are all God's children,no matter what the next person believes or doesn't, that doesn't change the fact that we are all God's children. It's really sad that these soldiers looked as though they were having fun doing this and taking the pics. As I've said before,a lot of these Iraqis were civilians who had not been charged or convicted of any crimes. Is this how America works when they are in someone else's house? It's just dispicable!

Jennifer, I also voted the same as you,
And AMEN, me too! I just became a christian myself about two years ago, and there is no way now that I could say anyone deserves that!!
I too agree that the higher ups are the ones that should do some jail time, they knew better, and should have never allowed our people to do that to anyone.
As you know, we all rep what we sow, and they got revenge on us for this inmature action. I prayed for the family of the young man that was decapitated today in retaliation.
My heart goes out to all our troops, and I believe the core of this is for the betterment of Iraq, so I'll continue to support why they are there. But I do disapprove of how some are handling their positions.

This whole mess is unfortunate and its just going to cement anti American feelings so I seriously think that this will not be over for quite some time and even some "higher ups" will have to answer for these deadly deeds.

But, I'm already seeing some feedback coming in regards to our prisoners here in the US... Some of the guards who have been charged are prison guards.... some attention will flow to "our" loved ones situations. Lets hope that the American people can educate themselves over what is really going on right here under their noses in their own state and federal prisons!

o-kay...here it goes...I don't feel what the soliders did to the POW's in Iraq was correct and something needs to be done in regards to repermanding them, BUT the big thing is the goverment was "Warned" about this kind of activity OVER a year ago by the Red Cross and nothing was done about it. I don't think anyone should be "tortured" in anyway. Our government has apologized for the "wrong doings", are starting court marshals for the soldiers who participated in the ordeal....BUT...did or have any of the countries ever apologized to us for the way they treated or POW's? Think about it, those soliders whom are the guards...are national guard/reservests, they only had 3 weeks training to be "mp's". They joined the national guard/reserves as they never thought that that would in a million years go overseas. Anywhoo...they are disgruntaleded due to having their time over there extended, moral is down due to that and the "rules of engagement"...not to mention the living conditions over there aren't the greatest. Look at the 3 guys who were killed in the car that was shot with a missle, then they pulled their dead/burnt boddies out of the car, poked them with sticks, etc, drug them in the street behind cars and then hung them from the bridge...and these people were just helping with delivering food. I know it's WRONG what they did, but you have to consider the what they are going through and seeing. My brother is over there with the Army and told me that there were a few mortars thrown into the compound where he is...they were lucky that they were duds and didn't go off, or they would have all been dead including my brother. He is fustraited as they are over there to help and look at all the soliders getting killed by suicide bombers...etc...then there was morters thrown into the dining facility and 14 soliders were injured. Like I say I'm not condoning their behavior, but you need to look at the conditions they, our soliders are in too.

Actually the hole thing bothers me, We have done so much good stuff out there, like clean water for the first time ever, the kids go to school, ect ect. I just really think it totally defeats the whole purpose of us having men and women out there being killed for us, and honestly, it pisses my off. BUT we still have to respect them, for freedom is NOT free anymore. It never will be. at any rate.. good thread...

I think the US soldiers involved should be held liable for their actions. The corresponding punishment should be determined by the level of participation in the so-called abuse. These soldiers greatly tainted what America stood for, and compromised the presence of the US in that region. It angered a lot of people and it will endanger a lot of Americans in Iraq. The beheading of an American civilian was a clear statement they are vehemently condemning the prison abuse, and therefore, would like to get even. I condemn the beheading... but this is precisely what will happen if the United States will not denounce any form of atrocities, even those committed by Americans as well. What really scares and worries me is the thought that the Iraqi insurgents will use the issue as their primary reason for committing worse atrocities towards Americans, and their allies... sort of a license to kill. This is the reason why at all times, even the leaders of the military should be aware and well-informed regarding what is going on... command responsibility. The Geneva Convention clearly states that irregardless of the individual responsibilities that may exist, the Detaining Power is responsible for the treatment given to the prisoners.
The Geneva Convention also states that prisoners should be treated humanely-- with respect for their persons and honor, in all circumstances. Even if other countries do not adhere to these, this shouldn't mean that it is also OK for some American soldiers not to conform to it. The United States, for so many years, have taken an active role in the preservation of freedom, in denouncing any form of atrocities, and ensuring that the world is safe from dictators who have no regard for human rights. The whole world is always watching what the US does... the bible says that "to whom much is given, much is required"... I think America should always be reminded of that. Americans should be aware that every thing you guys say or do echoes all over the world. This is part of what it means to be an American... people all over the world look up to you. But remember, there are those also who do not like what America stands for, and would wait for every given opportunity to bring down a great nation before the whole world. That is the reason why I think the US government should remedy this situation. They can start by being impartial towards the prison abuse incidents. I believe the law should be enforced without fear or favor. This is what America stands for... a democracy that ensures freedom... and with freedom, comes responsibilities.
I have nothing against the US soldiers who are involved in the abuse-- I feel so bad for them and their families. But then again, you don't want to send the wrong message. Otherwise, it will create a state of anarchy in that region. Allies of the US might eventually withdraw their support from the US-led force in Iraq, and might even demand the US to withdraw from Iraq, and it will prove to be more embarassing for the US.

The problem with this war is that it's "full" of political BS and it's also a "religious" war. No one wins in wars based on "religion".

I voted the soldiers should be sentenced to jail/prison. I think most of our members have a loved one who was sentenced to jail/prison for less than that.

Also, I don't really understand the second choice in this poll. I don't understand why torturing and abusing POWs would save US lives !!!!!

And, to me the US have nothing to do in Irak, and PLEASE, don't tell me it's to restore freedom and democracy and help the Iraqi people. They never asked the US to come over there. There's a small country just in front of the coast of Florida which has been living under a dictatorship for over 40 years, whose people are starving because of a megalomaniac and Ubu style dictator, whose prisons are filled with journalists and people simply expressing their opinion and the US doesn't care !!! They even made it harder for the Cubans with the embargo and the laws Torricelli and Helms-Burton. !! But of course there's no oil in Cuba, as there's no oil in North Korea where thousands and thousands of women men and children are starving and dying everyday because of one of the toughest dictatorship of the world.

Phil

I agree Phil--we invaded them. They didn't and don't want us there... All of this is wrong... These guards need to be tried for csc as well as whatever else... People are in prisons for a lot less than this... BUT, the higher ups need to be charged as well and get prison time...

Deb

Fed-X,

Mahalo for allowing your members a voice at PTO on this issue. And I appreciate the respect and dignity being expressed in evey opinion posted.

My opinion is the soldiers in question should be reprimanded and sentence to jail/prison. I also feel those in authority should face some tough consequences as well. As a Nation, it is important that out troops abide by the Geneva Convention. Failing to do so diminishes any integrity, we as a people, possess.

Aloha,

Feya

I feel that wrong as the individuals involved are/were, they are but a symptom of the disease called dehumanization. And it happens here too. How can we possibly claim that today's America stands for freedom and liberty? I don't mean to offend anyone, but to me America stands for one symbol in the world right now and that's $$$. I say this with great sorrow.

I agree wholeheartedly that the US and Britain had no right to start this war in the first place, and everything you say, Phil, I totally agree with. Would any of these soldiers, and I include my own countries in this, have acted in this way were the 'enemy' Christians? They are all just following in the footsteps of the Crusaders who committed the worse genocide imaginable in the name of 'God'. Nothing's changed much except that now we all know about it a lot sooner and can, hopefully, make amends.

I voted they should be sent to prison, at least there they'll get the same treatment as they dished out in Iraq, and there's certainly no Geneva Convention to help them!!!

Rose

Good answers by all.. Hopefully we can keep this thread focused on what the response should to the soldiers involved and not get too spread out on issue such as if we should be there at all.

I probably should have put in an option about the upper echelons (sp) being punished as well. Maybe that is a new thread? ;)

I agree with Phil's statement: "I voted the soldiers should be sentenced to jail/prison. I think most of our members have a loved one who was sentenced to jail/prison for less than that."
My exact sentiments! Thank you Phil for stating it succinctly. Based on what I've been reading, they can only get a jail term of up to one year. A BBC news article even had an article pointing out that a US soldier who shot an Iraqi prisoner was only given a dishonorable discharge, despite the fact that the case was established to be "murder". They didn't disclose the name of the soldier so I wasn't able to cross-reference it. My husband's case was desertion, and he was given the maximum of 2 years, among other things. And that bothers me.

What makes no sense to me is how the prison guards in California can commit the same violent acts against inmates in the California prison system and get away with it. It's public knowledge, documented and there are videos to prove it. I don't see anyone coming to the aid of the prisoners in the USA. My priorities stay with the USA, if our own prisoners are treated like human beings, then I would have time to worry about the prisoners abroad.

I have to admit I have very strong feelings on this, and some shame. I do feel that they should be sentenced to prison and jail, and I have been pretty rabid in calling for them at be court-martialed. I still believe very, very strongly that they should be court-martialed and IF CONVICTED given the harshest sentence possible. I also believe that their Superior Officer's should face courts-martial.

The thing I am having a problem with is the publicity, the press already has them tried, convicted and on the way to brig.

Patti

To Be Honest Yeah I Think It Wasnt Right For The Americans To Play With The Iraqi People But Its Not Nearly As Bad As What They Did To The American Beheadding Him. There Animals. Us Americans Made A Big Fuss About The Sexual Abuse It Just Lighted Fuel To There Fire. Now Our People Are Dieing There Animals So We Should Treat Them Like Animals. Its Sad They Have No Problem With Killing Yet They Cry Over Sexual Abuse If You Ask Me Americans Did Them A Favor. I Just Hate For Our People To Die Well God Bless Everyone

Ok- What we did to those Iraqi prisoners is bad- they probably would have rather been killed then suffer like that. It wasn't good to see the US soldiers smiling- to see them laughing like it was a game.
War is hell.
Yea, we invaded Irag-
However, we are the ones who have to be "superior"- God help us if we step out of line.
NO I don't agree with what we did- but compared to what they have done to us? Hanging those "civilians" and beating them? Be-heading?
We dont' do that- but what we have done is considered worse!
NO, it wasn't right- but when you are dealing with people who have no problem with beheading a hostage- (and that kind of thing would have and does happen no matter what WE do) you have to do things you wouldn't normally do.
Our world is different now.
However, when you deal with people that will kill you IN A SECOND just because you are American, you have to change your strategy.
I don't agree with what we did- but I don't agree with what they have done either.
This war is a blood thirsty evil thing. Whether you agree with it or not, we are in it.
We get angry too and why is it that we aren't allowed to be emotional? Why is it that we have to be completely level headed and in complete control at all times? They are killing our people- in every way possible- and we are supposed to keep a straight head and move on. We feel too.
So, no, we shouldn't have done what we did- but it's war...

I just finished watching the woman soldier's interview on the News and am very pissed off that she kept saying, basically, "I did what I was told." that was a line the Natzi soldiers used in later years, wasn't it? If something is wrong, it is wrong. She shouldn't be able to get out of it, simply by stating she followed orders.
I think that this whole situation is horrible and makes the entire U.S. look bad. I can understand why we have such a bad reputation in other countries (when I went to Egypt I heard locals calling us the "United Snakes"). I have mixed feelings about the war, however. I want to support our troups and be patriotic, but I am very leery of the cause itself being what our President says it is.

Yes, 'I was only following orders' was the excuse of many a Nazi and it didn't wash then, as I hope it won't do now.

It doesn't matter what is being done TO the occupation forces and, by that I don't condone any of the actions, but it's being done by civilians, not the military. The military HAVE to abide by the Geneva Convention when dealing with prisoners of war. I saw one of the accused interviewed by a British newsman and he said he 'hadn't been told' about the Geneva Convention!!! This to me is a very poor excuse because don't we all watch, at sometime in our lives, war films that state this constantly? By the way, this soldiers was, in real life, a prison guard, something I point out to people all the time!!!

Rose

This question must be addressed logically and not emotionally.
For what purpose were the soldiers actions? Did they achieve that purpose.? Was it justifiable? Is the evidence produced genuine or if not how much is faked? How much of the attention raised by this issue can be attributed to the influence of "anti" groups?
Arethe prisoners to be considered POWs and entitled to Geneva Convention protection or are they post war terrorists? Were the soldiers concerned acting indidvidually or in concert with a policy? Who authorised the actions and in what capacity?
If you want to bring religion into the picture consider the mores of Islam with regard to murder. It is probably much more vehemently against it than Christianity.
Islam considers that there are sins against God and sins against man. God can/will only forgive sins against man if the man sinned against forgives you first. How can a man you've murdered do that? He's dead!
As for Holy wars etc They can only be invoked if Islam is under threat. I haven't noticed any coalition forces preventing people from practising their religion.
Finally , questions of moral philosophy never have a correct answer. Morals are a system of behaviourial tenets designed to enable people to live in a society amicably and contributing to the good of that society. This infers that different societies with different desires and targets can and maybe will have a different set of moral values. What happens when one takes a member of a society with one set of moral values and places him into a society with a different set, whether that set is the set of the majority in the other society or those of a subset who have their own agenda.
Does he treat like with like? does he stand rigidly by the morals of his own society's code or does he take a middle course that allows him to protect himself and his society members and to achieve the objectives required of him? What would I do in his situation?
When you have considered all these problems and reached an honest opinion that you can live with, then vote.
Regards
CapnJohn

Further, I think Rostonhall may have a valid point when he says " this solidier was ,in real life, a prison guard". There used to be an old saying about sending a boy to do a mans job! I wonder how much training members of the US military get in Police actions? The UK was "lucky" they had Northern Ireland to practice on. The requirements and mental attitude required for policing aggressively anti people is not the same as that required to go and take a hill or any enemy position. You wouldn't use rottweillers to herd sheep. Neither should you use combat trained troops for occupation. The duties in Iraq require the services of an entirely different mind set and the US must begin to train troops for this service if they want to continue to consider themselves the policemen of the world.
Rgds
Capn John

I think you do us all an injustice if you think our comments and votes are a knee jerk reaction. These are prisoners of war, not terrorists and, even if they were, they do NOT deserve to be treated as if they are animals!!! Every human being has the right to respect and, don't forget, we in Britain have been dealing with terrorists for a lot longer than you and, although not perfect, we still didn't treat our IRA prisoners in this way. Would this abuse have happened had these people been Christians?????????

We didn't 'practice' on Northern Ireland, we had to deal with it. Yes, we learned a lot, but we did use regular troops in the policing of the troubles. They were everyday 'squadies', not specially trained personnel. It's took 35 years of combat in Northern Ireland for us to have the experiance, something you could learn from, after all, we're in this together, or so Tony Blair keeps telling us.

By the way, last time I looked I was all woman!!

Rose

I am a Brit and half Irish into the bargain!
As for the way we treated IRA prisoners ( for whom I have no sympathy) I suggest you investigate a little further before making blanket bstatements.
As for religion, apart from being the instigator of the majority of the problems, it bears little relationship to the way the defeated are treated. christians, jews ,muslims buddhists, sikhs, hindus have all been mistreated in their time by their conquerors.
Regards
Capn John
I think you do us all an injustice if you think our comments and votes are a knee jerk reaction. These are prisoners of war, not terrorists and, even if they were, they do NOT deserve to be treated as if they are animals!!! Every human being has the right to respect and, don't forget, we in Britain have been dealing with terrorists for a lot longer than you and, although not perfect, we still didn't treat our IRA prisoners in this way. Would this abusem have happened had these people been Christians?????????

Rose

To Rostonhall
My apologies for the sex change. See waht happens when you dont look closely at your subject :-)))

Sorry, if I have it wrong about the way we treated the political prisoners, I'm only going by what's been released, perhaps we did do a lot more but it's never been made public. I'm not justifying anything, but these were NOT prisoners of war and NOT covered by the Geneva Convention, and I'm half Irish, too, the other half being Romani.

If you think it makes no difference whatsoever what religion the defeated are then you are sadly mistaken. It started with the Crusaders and it hasn't stopped yet. Why do you think the Red Cross is so hated by the Arab nations?

My people left India because of religious persecution, that was 1000 years ago and, even after Hitler tried to wipe us from the face of the earth. it's still happening.

And I'm still a woman!!!

Rose

Begs the question, what good is religion? More wars, skirmishes, and human rights violations in general have been committed in the name of religion than any other reason. And the "I-was-just-following-orders" excuse doesn't fly. Wasn't that tried in Vietnam for the My Lai incident? Washington has called out their posse of spin doctors, but all the spinning in the world is not going to help this pathetic situation. The United States has turned a corner and there's no going back. No matter from what angle you look at what happened to the Iraqi prisoners, it is wrong and unjustifiable. As for the man who was beheaded, well, he went over there to make money. And isn't that just what the Muslims hate about western society, Americans in particular -- that we are a nation of greedy, hedonistic people? And what do we do to combat their opinions, show that they're wrong? We entice people to come over and work for a year and make outrageous sums of money. We allow our soldiers to behave in sexually degrading manners. Again, I have little sympathy for people who behave foolishly and allow greed to rule their heads. Does anyone really believe our so-called "soldiers" (I use the term loosely when talking about those accused of abusing the Iraqi prisoners because by their actions, they have made a mockery out of a term that used to imply honor) were only following orders? They looked pretty darned happy in the photos. Someone might be able to tell you to put a leash around a prisoner's neck and MAYBE, if you're weak enough, you will obey. But SMILE?? Laugh? Look as if you're having the time of your life at an amusement park? This war was wrong from its conception. Bush and Blair went in with guns blazing, but unfortunately, without having thought the whole thing through. In the United States, we have so far allocated $185 billion to this effort. If toppling Saddam Hussein's regime was really the objective, could we not have used that money, or probably just a fraction of it, to beef up our intelligence and infiltrated Iraq? Such arrogance, such waste, such irresponsibility...

jims...

I feel the Iraqi prisoner abuses are deeply deeply disturbing.
This behavior is indicative of a widespread cancer that is symptomatic
of the underlying cause.

I feel utter disgust for what these --for the most part-- civilians have done to the charges under their care. From most all accounts that I have read, most of those accused are civilian contractors: police, Co's etc.

Their actions have made everything so much worse, on what the brave and courageous members of the military are trying to accomplish. I'm sure these people, who are risking their lives every minute must be totally pissed off by the actions of these few a$$holes.

I believe the superior's in charge of these jails will get court martialed and those civilians will get prison time.

Can we really be surprised at what the civilians have done? They do it here...again those few who make up the worst of the lot and get away with it. Why would we think their actions would be any different where there was not much supervision and they had the umbrella of war?

I saw the pictures and video of what they did to Nick Berg...it makes me sick and angry. He is now a casuality of war, but he was only there to help rebuild this country. I couldn't imagine, but if this was my relative, it would put enough rage into me, that I would want to go and fight and do things that I never would have thought I could...

Anyway, I agree with Jeni, this is War and there are going to be many attrocities and incidents that make us sick. Only thing, I would have like to believe that it would not have been some of our own that would be implementing them, such as what has occurred in these prisons.

This entire situation has left me very depressed. I was angered, but now it has settled into a dark depression.

I think the soldiers/guards/contractors/cia (or what ever else they were) should be tried and if convicted, given HEAVY prison sentences. What they have done has and will lead to more blood. Violence begets violence. They intentionally and deliberatly antagonized and tortured these people using their religious beliefs.

I heard an interview on NPR of a contract employee who worked at that prison. He said they took the pictures so when they were interrogating them, they could show the pics and threaten to distribute them amongst their family and neighbors. Well, turns out it wasnt an idle threat.

The other thing he said that really stuck in my head is that all those people were not combatants. Many were just average Iraqi people. He said they would get a tip that a wanted person was going to be in a certain place like a market or restraunt and if when they got there, he wasnt, they would just round up everyone and take them to prison.

I was not surprised in the least that some of the accused are prison guards in real life.

Excuse me, have I got it wrong somewhere? The people I've seen on the news over here in England HAVEN'T actually been civvies, or does being a Reservist and called up for active duty mean they are, in fact, judged as civilians??

And from what we understand here, no matter how bad Nick Berg's death was, we wasn't there to rebuild a country, he was there to line his pockets with as many bucks as he could in the shortest possible time. If we, the USA and the UK hadn't destroyed the country and caused near civil war, then he wouldn't have had ANY reason to be there.

And who's read about the US MArines doing the same in Haiti, because I certainly have?????
Rose

I saw Lynndie England on TV. I can't remember exactly what they were asking her, like whether she was acting on orders. i think the photos clearly show she was enjoying herself. Rumsfield is chillingly cold.
And Nicholas Berg did NOT deserve to die!

Hello Everyone!!

My husband is active duty Navy, and we both feel that the US soldiers responsible should do jail/prison time for this. I also feel that the punishment needs to go all the way up the chain of command to Rumsfeld maybe even Bush. After all, Bush is the Commander in Chief and this happened on his watch as well as Rumsfelds.

There is absolutely no excuse these soldiers can give for their actions. They have a right to deny any order given them so lets not let them get away with "they were just following orders." What a stupid bunch of idiots - Did they really think they could get away with this?!!! What exactly were they thinking when they were posing for those pictures - did they really get their rocks off humiliating these people like that or what?!! Sick individuals if you ask me. How damn sad my tax dollars went to these losers over the years they have spent in the military.!!!! What an absolute waste!!!! - What did they think would happen with those photos that were taken?!!!! Did they think they would just go in someones scrapbook as war memories?!!!! Can you imagine them showing them to their loved ones and being proud of it?!!!!! Sick, sick, sick!!!! I hope they all do several years in Leavenworth!!! They are a disgrace to the American People and the American Military. Imagine just how proud their friends and family are of them now!!!!!!

Anyway, from this Navy Wife I gave you my 2 cents. Thanks for reading.

Serendipitygirl, I think the soldier who shot the Iraqi prisoner got more than a DD. I try to keep up with crime and sentencing in the military, and seem to remember reading about it in a military publication. If the investigation established it was murder, he should definitely be punished for that crime. I'll see what I can find.

Interestingly, just read that he (the soldier who shot the wounded Iraqi as a "mercy killing") was found guilty of murder and conspiracy to commit murder. Sentence: 1 year, DD, reduction and forfeiture.

.
I just noted that someone responded to the Iraq prisoner abuse thread. I ran across something interesting just recently that is related. In 1971 an experiment was done at Stanford University relative to prisoners and guards. I am going to include a link. I think you may all find it interesting - not only in light of Iraq, but also as it relates to our guys and the CO's.

Link: http://www.prisonexp.org/

Catlady

One year for murder!!!! For the first time I can remember - words fail me!!!!!!!!

Rose

Okay, I am going to play Devil's Avvocate here about this abuse thing. What these soldiers did was terrible but where was the Commanding Officer of the prison? Are you telling me that things were just so lax there that they just let things go one like that? Come on! I spent years in the Air Force and you couldn't so much as utter a rumor around where I worked and not have the commander know about it!

Everyone pays a lot of attention over this abuse scandal and yes it is well deserved however, if you look at how many prisoners of war that we have taken in since the war on terror verses the prison abuse scandal stories that have broke I would say that we compared to our brutal beheading terrorist enemy are far more humanizing then they are by far! No one died in our naked body stack up! We have had to endure watching internet videos on a daily basis of kidnappings and beheading and then see their bodies thrown in the streets of Iraq like trash! How soon we forget those poor victims, many foreign workers helping to rebuild a war torn country, many coming from a much poorer country themselves, many just coming to Iraq to help the Iraqi people recover. :eek:

Everyday our soldiers endure the roughest of conditions in a country with tempertures during the summer that can soar as high as 132 degrees, fighting a hidden enemy, an enemy that today works for you, and tomorrow will work for a terrorist organization because it offered him more money to fight along side with them! :angry:

I know that we have the Geneva Convention and that we must abide by that. I too once was in the military. But I also understand how conditions lead to these problems as well as a lack of proper supervision. I just think that we need to look at the overwhelming majority of people that serve in the forces as honorable people doing a great job everyday for our country.

This isn't a war on religion this is a culture war, that will eventually be won read what is happening around the world ( ie 1 million Spanish Muslims call fatwa against Osama Bin Laden) it is slowly turning in Americas favor and guess who is up for the Nobel Peace Prize possible?? You guessed right! George W. Bush! Terrorism can't last because it effects tourism, econimics and people's general feeling about their future.



The problem with this war is that it's "full" of political BS and it's also a "religious" war. No one wins in wars based on "religion".

I just love the Islands, I just had to tell you that! and I totally agree with you and I wanted to add that if America is going to be a super power that we must set the example to the world as well as to the United Nations.



Fed-X,

Mahalo for allowing your members a voice at PTO on this issue. And I appreciate the respect and dignity being expressed in evey opinion posted.

My opinion is the soldiers in question should be reprimanded and sentence to jail/prison. I also feel those in authority should face some tough consequences as well. As a Nation, it is important that out troops abide by the Geneva Convention. Failing to do so diminishes any integrity, we as a people, possess.

Aloha,

Feya

There is no question in my mind that the abusers should be in jail...but in many case they are at the end of the chain. Rumsfeld and B**H are at the top!

The public in the USA was appalled by what goes on in Abu Ghraib..they would be equally appalled if they knew what happens here every day. It is up to us to educate them since it is the only way we can change the system.


This is a link to download the video of the UK channel 4 program about prison torture in the US


http://www.marijuanaman.com/prison.mpg

Those who saw the program and know the truth first hand said that the program was kinder than the truth.
I just downloaded it today and viewed it. It is extremely shameful, to put it mildly!

Notice UK television contains the vulgar four letter words. Here in the US we are very good (especially our government) at being upset over that and TV nudity...but human abuse, brutality and judicial murder...that is something else.

The abuse was wrong, however I feel that it should have been the army and not the individual who took responsibility for it. Soldiers were sent to Iraq to kill, so how can the Government expect the same soldiers to babysit the very people they were sent to fight its illogical imho. though no way excuses the abuse.



I thought I would start a poll to see how everyone felt about the abuses being made public with regards to Iraqi prisoners. For those of you who may not be up to speed, pictures have been released where U.S. soldiers are posing and abusing prisoners. This includes a female soldier holding a leash attached to a nekkid Iraqi prisoner, prisoners with black bags over their heads, prisoners piled nekkid atop one another, and so on..
I hear there is a video out and about but have not seen it yet.

Please vote on the pole and feel free to post your responses here as well.

Thanks,
Fed-X

George W. Bush is up for the Nobel? I got to say this: Isn't that like giving Josef Stalin the Humanitarian of the Year Award! Oh My God!

swebb1989 I know you are prior service and I Thank You for your service to this country, but how can you support that, that man!

We live in a country that has more people in prison than almost any nation with the possible exception of China! Yes there is a purpose for prisons, and yes, unfortunately some need to be there, but the crimes that people are being imprisoned for now! Drug crimes, white collar crimes, crimes that in some nations would not be crimes, the Death Penalty! Every civilized nation on earth has done away with the death penalty.

Between all the executions in Texas and the war in Iraq George Bush is responsible for more death and destruction than anyone since Stalin, Mao, or Hitler!

Yes, the war against bin Ladin is justified, but I have yet to see any connection between Iraq and bin Ladin, In fact, bin Ladin was not exactly that happy with Hussien because Hussien's government was a secular government not one based on Islamic law

So, as I see it the war in Iraq has nothing to do with Al Quida (spelling) and Bush started an illegal war in Iraq, just to get the oil. I know you will debate me on that, but as far as I am concerned you will not change my mind. Then we have American soldiers treating Prisoners of War in the same fashion as a inmate in a concentration camp!

Yes, the Iraqi insurgents have done some horrible things, but the American Soldier is better than they are or, at least we thought we were. War does strange things to people!

My family survived Nazi Germany, admittedly, we are not Jewish, but we are Catholic and we were aristocracy from the days of the German Empire which made us targets for the Nazis. The only thing that saved SOME of my family was the fact that we were career military.

My parents brought my sisters and I to this country, we love this country, I served in the U.S. Coast Guard for twenty years and did it to Thank the United States and it's people for saving my country and my family.

But, this is not the country I came too in 1964, this is not the country that I served so proudly for 20 years, this is a country that has allowed an evil man and what has become an evil political party take it over and destroy everything it was meant to be!

I still love the American Military Man and Women, most are decent, patriotic and proud individuals and I was and am proud to have served with them.

A friend of mine came back from Iraq today, she is a reservist who was called up, she did her duty, she stood with her fellow soldiers, yet her retirement is to be cancelled and she is on call to go back. Before she went the first time, she had some misgivings, but she went.

She told me today, that the United States Government was wrong to destroy Iraq and that she will refuse to redeploy to Iraq. She knows the consequences, but is going to stand for what she believes is right.

I was in the 1991 war, I believe it was justified, but this one I do not believe to be a just war, if any war can be. If I did not have a felony conviction I could still be recalled, I too would refuse to deploy to Iraq.

I do believe that Hussien was and is an evil man, but so is George Bush.

Patricia

Please, is that an April 1st joke??? Bush up for the Nobel Peace Prize!!! I've just relayed that to some family members here and the tears are running down their faces they're laughing so much.

swebb, it's a pity someone didn't tell the IRA that terrorism couldn't last and that it effects tourism. They carried out attacks in mainland Britain for decades, all that stopped them was 9/11, and that's only because their funding dried up. Americans experienced terrorism first hand and stopped sending money to Ireland!!! And you'll notice WE weren't invaded by the US to put a stop to that terrorism.

Rose

I appreciate all your posts and opinions and I am so excited to see that Americans are not apathetic about what is happening in Iraq. Just because I served in the Armed Forces doesn't mean that I am a Bush minion because I have a son that is serving in Iraq now as we speak with the 82 Airborne. But I am just sharing an article that I had read that if Bush can pull off peace he is up for the Nobel Peace Prize. The reason for this is that there is a movement within the Muslim faith to denounce terriorism! This is exactly what we need to have happen to stop this war. for muslims around the world to say we no longer embrace this kind of behavior and we are standing up and taking accountability.

As far as the death penality is concerned it isn't a Bush issue, the overwhelming majority of Americans support Capital Punishment and feel that we are not "tough enough" on crime. The difference between Texas and other states is that they are not wasting time on appeals.

As far as the war on Iraq is concerned, Iraq had 13years to comply with the UN to let weapon inspectors in. During the Clinton Era we tried bombing them but that didn't work so we just swept it under the rug because our president was having his own issues and that was called impeachement! The UN did nothing because as it is being revealed now they were involved in an Oil for Food scandal! So who can we trust? Iraq signed a deal for peace and they didn't abide by that agreement so it really doesn't matter what reason we had to go in there and invade and kick Saddam out because he didn't hold up to his end opf the agreement and 13 years in ample time to make amends. He got what he deserved. If we are going to be a super power we have to act like it and enforce agreements on those countries that we went to war with and the countries that we make peace with.

During the tsunami the world asked, "Where is America?" You see we aren't a secular government and the world doesn't expect that out of us. When they are in trouble who do they run to? They run to America for answers! We may not like it but it is the position that we have put ourselves in to. You may think that we should close ourselves off to the world and tell them to fend for themselves but I guarantee you that once we do that all hell would break loose around the world! Because no matter how many times you hear foreigners say they hate Americans ask them why they keep buying Levis jeans? Because they want to be just like you. So hold your head up high, Cause you are American!!!! :thumbsup:

By the way I am not a Bush supporter, I am just relating an article that I had read about who was up for the Nobel Prize and Bushy was up for it! Thought you would love it! ;)



George W. Bush is up for the Nobel? I got to say this: Isn't that like giving Josef Stalin the Humanitarian of the Year Award! Oh My God!

swebb1989 I know you are prior service and I Thank You for your service to this country, but how can you support that, that man!

We live in a country that has more people in prison than almost any nation with the possible exception of China! Yes there is a purpose for prisons, and yes, unfortunately some need to be there, but the crimes that people are being imprisoned for now! Drug crimes, white collar crimes, crimes that in some nations would not be crimes, the Death Penalty! Every civilized nation on earth has done away with the death penalty.

Between all the executions in Texas and the war in Iraq George Bush is responsible for more death and destruction than anyone since Stalin, Mao, or Hitler!

Yes, the war against bin Ladin is justified, but I have yet to see any connection between Iraq and bin Ladin, In fact, bin Ladin was not exactly that happy with Hussien because Hussien's government was a secular government not one based on Islamic law

So, as I see it the war in Iraq has nothing to do with Al Quida (spelling) and Bush started an illegal war in Iraq, just to get the oil. I know you will debate me on that, but as far as I am concerned you will not change my mind. Then we have American soldiers treating Prisoners of War in the same fashion as a inmate in a concentration camp!

Yes, the Iraqi insurgents have done some horrible things, but the American Soldier is better than they are or, at least we thought we were. War does strange things to people!

My family survived Nazi Germany, admittedly, we are not Jewish, but we are Catholic and we were aristocracy from the days of the German Empire which made us targets for the Nazis. The only thing that saved SOME of my family was the fact that we were career military.

My parents brought my sisters and I to this country, we love this country, I served in the U.S. Coast Guard for twenty years and did it to Thank the United States and it's people for saving my country and my family.

But, this is not the country I came too in 1964, this is not the country that I served so proudly for 20 years, this is a country that has allowed an evil man and what has become an evil political party take it over and destroy everything it was meant to be!

I still love the American Military Man and Women, most are decent, patriotic and proud individuals and I was and am proud to have served with them.

A friend of mine came back from Iraq today, she is a reservist who was called up, she did her duty, she stood with her fellow soldiers, yet her retirement is to be cancelled and she is on call to go back. Before she went the first time, she had some misgivings, but she went.

She told me today, that the United States Government was wrong to destroy Iraq and that she will refuse to redeploy to Iraq. She knows the consequences, but is going to stand for what she believes is right.

I was in the 1991 war, I believe it was justified, but this one I do not believe to be a just war, if any war can be. If I did not have a felony conviction I could still be recalled, I too would refuse to deploy to Iraq.

I do believe that Hussien was and is an evil man, but so is George Bush.

Patricia

Swebb1989, I owe you an apology then. I jumped to conclusions, something I seem to do often!

I do love the irony of the thought of him being put up for the Nobel, though.

Let, me go get the plyers here and pry my foot out of my mouth!

Patti

swebb1989, I wasn't going to answer you but I feel I just must. Don't you know that we all stopped buying Levis when we realised they were being dumped on us at 3 times the cost you pay for them??? That's right, and when some companies started selling them cheaply they found they couldn't purchase any more stock. Companies like Asda, which is part of your Wal-Mart, were even taken to court by Levi in an effort to try to make them stop selling at well below the recommended price. The big American companies have a recommended retail price and ANYONE found selling their products for less has the item withdrawn from future sale. We don't like that over here and many companies, like Levi, now have to peddle their goods elsewhere because we've hit them where it hurts, in the pocket. We are very canny shoppers in Europe and don't like being fleeced (ripped off).

As for the tsunami, well, I know you didn't get the right news over there because friends have told me, but the rest of the world was right in there with relief efforts long before America. That's why the call went out 'Where's America???', you were noticible by your absence. Within days of the the tsunami hitting doctors, nurses, aid workers, were all on planes heading out there. Some even on their own time and at their own expense. Thousands from Europe, and the Australian government sent a ship out to help as they were the nearest. The world, except America, was there doing what they could, supplies were being flown in, the British Navy had 2 warships on the way and the Royal Airforce was flying non-stop with much needed supplies. That's not to mention what all the other countries in Europe were doing. And America was still sitting on it's thumbs!!! That's why we all wanted to know where you were. We're all still there, but you have long since departed. You even had the nerve to say you wouldn't go unless you had full control over the relief efforts, and the money raised by all the aid agencies. I'm really glad to say you didn't win that one, but I doubt you even know about it as your news stations tend to not report what is actually happening. Just out of interest, the British people (people - not the government) raised in excess of £300million, that's $560million in your money, for the relief effort, and I expect the amount from the rest of Europe was much greater than that. We flocked to help in any way we could.

By the way, when I'm in the States I can't help noticing so many people wearing Reebok products, what a good British company they are. And not to mention all the gas stations sporting the BP sign. British Petroleum (BP) are everywhere!!!

I could go on and on and on but I'm afraid it would be a waste of time and effort as you will still, no doubt, think the rest of the world can't do without you.

Rose

Love the post! And you are right about the price of Levis is high in Europe but that doesn't stop the Germans from buying them!

As far as the tsunami is concerned the USA sent over 900 million bucks over there to victims relief not to mention all charity relief that hasn't been accounted for by the people here in the USA! We also sent 1200 troops and 2 aircraft carriers over there to make clean water for the surviviors of the tsunami. We were there within 2 days after the devastation! How long do you think a government should be given to assess damage? Remember, America isn't no where near the damage site, so it is going to take us some time to develop a plan! I never heard of America wanting to have control of tsumami relief. Why would we when we have the war in Iraq and Afghanistan? That would mean limiting the amount of troops in other areas that are much more pertinent then the tsusami victims and that isn't in Americas best interest! America never said that they would stay! We knew that we wouldn't stay! We are at war and we need every abled body to fight in Iraq right now to stablize the violence in Iraq so that we can bring this war to an end! That is America's priority!

Reebok is a fine company, by the way, and I do love everything English, I am half English myself!!! Without the English there wouldn't be an America! :thumbsup:

By the way, I wanted to share with you where some of your money went to some of the tsunami victims. This may surprise you. Many of the tsunami victims believe that the beaches are haunted by the spirits of the people that died in the devastation so in order to calm the spirits and send them to the "next world", they would have ceremonies of burnt offerings which would include burning clothes, food, and money! They would burn these items in the hopes that this would bring the spirits peace! This was in a Newsweek. Maybe we should send them overpriced Levis from England??? :D



swebb1989, I wasn't going to answer you but I feel I just must. Don't you know that we all stopped buying Levis when we realised they were being dumped on us at 3 times the cost you pay for them??? That's right, and when some companies started selling them cheaply they found they couldn't purchase any more stock. Companies like Asda, which is part of your Wal-Mart, were even taken to court by Levi in an effort to try to make them stop selling at well below the recommended price. The big American companies have a recommended retail price and ANYONE found selling their products for less has the item withdrawn from future sale. We don't like that over here and many companies, like Levi, now have to peddle their goods elsewhere because we've hit them where it hurts, in the pocket. We are very canny shoppers in Europe and don't like being fleeced (ripped off).

As for the tsunami, well, I know you didn't get the right news over there because friends have told me, but the rest of the world was right in there with relief efforts long before America. That's why the call went out 'Where's America???', you were noticible by your absence. Within days of the the tsunami hitting doctors, nurses, aid workers, were all on planes heading out there. Some even on their own time and at their own expense. Thousands from Europe, and the Australian government sent a ship out to help as they were the nearest. The world, except America, was there doing what they could, supplies were being flown in, the British Navy had 2 warships on the way and the Royal Airforce was flying non-stop with much needed supplies. That's not to mention what all the other countries in Europe were doing. And America was still sitting on it's thumbs!!! That's why we all wanted to know where you were. We're all still there, but you have long since departed. You even had the nerve to say you wouldn't go unless you had full control over the relief efforts, and the money raised by all the aid agencies. I'm really glad to say you didn't win that one, but I doubt you even know about it as your news stations tend to not report what is actually happening. Just out of interest, the British people (people - not the government) raised in excess of £300million, that's $560million in your money, for the relief effort, and I expect the amount from the rest of Europe was much greater than that. We flocked to help in any way we could.

By the way, when I'm in the States I can't help noticing so many people wearing Reebok products, what a good British company they are. And not to mention all the gas stations sporting the BP sign. British Petroleum (BP) are everywhere!!!

I could go on and on and on but I'm afraid it would be a waste of time and effort as you will still, no doubt, think the rest of the world can't do without you.

Rose

Abuse is abuse no matter what state or country it is in. I feel very sorry for all the abuse that has taken place everywhere. However, I do wish the abuse that is taking place every day in every state in the United States were as well publicized as this was. We need to take care of the abuse here first.

Just my opinions.

Frisco, no need to resort to using tools to pry open open the jaws! Sounds way to painful! As you get to know me I love to play "Devils Advocate" makes the boards so much more interesting! By the way I ran across this site and I think that this is a cool site with a lot of great information. Especially about the military! The military has always been so closed off as far as the justice system and this site really cracks it wide up and provides a lot of great information to those that really need insight.

Swebb1989, I owe you an apology then. I jumped to conclusions, something I seem to do often!

I do love the irony of the thought of him being put up for the Nobel, though.

Let, me go get the plyers here and pry my foot out of my mouth!

Patti

swebb1998, that's just the point, you never heard that the US was DEMANDING it take over all relief operations and that the rest of the world said a resounding 'NO'. America had to back down in a big way, but it wasn't reported by any of the US news agencies that I check daily. Your news just didn't carry it at all. It was the same with the relief effort in general. When the rest of the world was already in there getting their hands dirty you hadn't even deployed any ships or aircraft, but you didn't know anything about it because you weren't told.

Now, I'm afraid I have to say, much as I'd like to answer you again should you choose to reply I have to get some sleep because I'm on a plane early in the morning crossing the pond once more for a visit.

Rose

Around the world I know that other counties hav ethe impression that America is this imperilistic country that wants to take over every country and every situation. But again I ask you what benefit would we have to take over relief efforts in Indonesia? There is no benefit to the USA! We already have trade agreements with these countries and receive good that are made in these countries that are effected by this disaster. If we were to push our agenda or control on these countries during a time when they are suffering this would cause a riff between our trade agreenment with these countries!

America got a lot of bad press over Iraq but Iraq is our business and rightfully so because we have had to deal with this issue for more than 13 years! Maybe if our past adminstrations hadn't been so lax with Saddam we wouldnt be in this mess now! But I don't see Tony Blair and company leaving our side and we thank you guys for your support.

By the way we learned our imperialistic ways from our English ancestors, and we thank you . :thumbsup: God bless America!!!


swebb1998, that's just the point, you never heard that the US was DEMANDING it take over all relief operations and that the rest of the world said a resounding 'NO'. America had to back down in a big way, but it wasn't reported by any of the US news agencies that I check daily. Your news just didn't carry it at all. It was the same with the relief effort in general. When the rest of the world was already in there getting their hands dirty you hadn't even deployed any ships or aircraft, but you didn't know anything about it because you weren't told.

Now, I'm afraid I have to say, much as I'd like to answer you again should you choose to reply I have to get some sleep because I'm on a plane early in the morning crossing the pond once more for a visit.

Rose

I can't answer as to why the US wanted to take over the relief effort, but it did. Mr Bush stood before the UN and told the whole world, except the US obviously, via television and the press that he wouldn't take part unless the US had FULL control!!!! The world's press, except the US, had a field day with that and a week later Colin Powell was back at the UN saying America was prepared to do what everyone else wanted and wouldn't force the control issue. That's what happened, that's the facts!!!!!

You may not see Tony Blair pulling outof Iraq because we are aware we've made such a bloody mess out there we now have to stay for years to repair the damage. But if you think the people of Britain are with Blair you are very much mistaken. He's only still the PM because he's given us, the Labour Party, many concessions. He's on very thin ice and he knows it. Unlike you, we don't vote the leader of our Government into power. That's up to the ruling political party, and he's only leader of the Party because he knows how to eat humble pie.

Oh! And the British Empire disintergrated because of our imperialistic ways!!!!

Rose

Wow!

How did I miss this thread?
The post by FriscoLady is so spot on!

For the record

Even China, with one party rule and a population that is 4.5 times larger than the US population, has 30% fewer total prisoners than the US. China’s per capita rate is a small fraction of the US rate.

The US prison population per capita is three times higher than "axis of evil" country Iran, five times higher than Tanzania, and seven times higher than a civilized European country like Germany.

[FromA Prison State, If Not a Police Stateby Paul Craig Roberts (PCRoberts@postmark.net)
Dr. Roberts is John M. Olin Fellow at the Institute for Political Economy and Research Fellow at the Independent Institute. He is a former associate editor of the Wall Street Journal[i] and a former assistant secretary of the U.S. Treasury. He is the co-author of The Tyranny of Good Intentions (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/076152553X/lewrockwell/).]





George W. Bush is up for the Nobel? I got to say this: Isn't that like giving Josef Stalin the Humanitarian of the Year Award! Oh My God!

swebb1989 I know you are prior service and I Thank You for your service to this country, but how can you support that, that man!

We live in a country that has more people in prison than almost any nation with the possible exception of China! Yes there is a purpose for prisons, and yes, unfortunately some need to be there, but the crimes that people are being imprisoned for now! Drug crimes, white collar crimes, crimes that in some nations would not be crimes, the Death Penalty! Every civilized nation on earth has done away with the death penalty.

Between all the executions in Texas and the war in Iraq George Bush is responsible for more death and destruction than anyone since Stalin, Mao, or Hitler!

Yes, the war against bin Ladin is justified, but I have yet to see any connection between Iraq and bin Ladin, In fact, bin Ladin was not exactly that happy with Hussien because Hussien's government was a secular government not one based on Islamic law

So, as I see it the war in Iraq has nothing to do with Al Quida (spelling) and Bush started an illegal war in Iraq, just to get the oil. I know you will debate me on that, but as far as I am concerned you will not change my mind. Then we have American soldiers treating Prisoners of War in the same fashion as a inmate in a concentration camp!

Yes, the Iraqi insurgents have done some horrible things, but the American Soldier is better than they are or, at least we thought we were. War does strange things to people!

My family survived Nazi Germany, admittedly, we are not Jewish, but we are Catholic and we were aristocracy from the days of the German Empire which made us targets for the Nazis. The only thing that saved SOME of my family was the fact that we were career military.

My parents brought my sisters and I to this country, we love this country, I served in the U.S. Coast Guard for twenty years and did it to Thank the United States and it's people for saving my country and my family.

But, this is not the country I came too in 1964, this is not the country that I served so proudly for 20 years, this is a country that has allowed an evil man and what has become an evil political party take it over and destroy everything it was meant to be!

I still love the American Military Man and Women, most are decent, patriotic and proud individuals and I was and am proud to have served with them.

A friend of mine came back from Iraq today, she is a reservist who was called up, she did her duty, she stood with her fellow soldiers, yet her retirement is to be cancelled and she is on call to go back. Before she went the first time, she had some misgivings, but she went.

She told me today, that the United States Government was wrong to destroy Iraq and that she will refuse to redeploy to Iraq. She knows the consequences, but is going to stand for what she believes is right.

I was in the 1991 war, I believe it was justified, but this one I do not believe to be a just war, if any war can be. If I did not have a felony conviction I could still be recalled, I too would refuse to deploy to Iraq.

I do believe that Hussien was and is an evil man, but so is George Bush.

Patricia

I did alittle research on the "Bush UN Speech" because it really bothered me and I wanted to make sure that you were getting the right information! And what I found from the Washingting Post was that Bush said to the UN was the USA "Will Lead Global Relief Effort" (12/29/04 Bush said the initial U.S. pledge of $35 million in direct financial aid is "only the beginning of our help." Now we know that we actually gave 900 million dollars.We gave 1200 Troops and 2 aircraft carriers. Again this doesn't account for private donations. America was the biggest contributor to the tsunami relief disaster! That is a fact! It isn't about control for America we just want to show the world that we are giving people that can help the world when they are in need and that is what a super power nation must do to remain a super power nation!:thumbsup:

I can't answer as to why the US wanted to take over the relief effort, but it did. Mr Bush stood before the UN and told the whole world, except the US obviously, via television and the press that he wouldn't take part unless the US had FULL control!!!! The world's press, except the US, had a field day with that and a week later Colin Powell was back at the UN saying America was prepared to do what everyone else wanted and wouldn't force the control issue. That's what happened, that's the facts!!!!!

You may not see Tony Blair pulling outof Iraq because we are aware we've made such a bloody mess out there we now have to stay for years to repair the damage. But if you think the people of Britain are with Blair you are very much mistaken. He's only still the PM because he's given us, the Labour Party, many concessions. He's on very thin ice and he knows it. Unlike you, we don't vote the leader of our Government into power. That's up to the ruling political party, and he's only leader of the Party because he knows how to eat humble pie.

Oh! And the British Empire disintergrated because of our imperialistic ways!!!!

Rose

The soldiers and their supervisors should be held accountable and court marshalled. Sentenced to jail if necessary...whatever the military court says is the punishment. I wish no harm to Iraqi's or anyone, but I find it hypocritical of Mr. Bush to say how horrible this is when we have supermax prisons and SHU's right here in the USA, where MUCH worse things happen. No one seems to care about that so this is a sore spot with me. It is not that what happened in Iraq is not wrong and horrible, it is, but why the public outcry over that and not what is going on HERE? Ciao.

I totally agree with you about the commanding officers being charged too in the abuse. Why weren't they held responsible? Where were they when all this was happening at the prison? I find it hard to believe that they didn't know what was going on in their own prison!:confused:



The soldiers and their supervisors should be held accountable and court marshalled. Sentenced to jail if necessary...whatever the military court says is the punishment. I wish no harm to Iraqi's or anyone, but I find it hypocritical of Mr. Bush to say how horrible this is when we have supermax prisons and SHU's right here in the USA, where MUCH worse things happen. No one seems to care about that so this is a sore spot with me. It is not that what happened in Iraq is not wrong and horrible, it is, but why the public outcry over that and not what is going on HERE? Ciao.