I heard that at least two of the so-called soldiers who are accused of abusing Iraqi prisoners worked as prison guards. One is from Virginia and one was a guard at Waynesburg, Pennsylvania -- SCI Greene. There is a 54-page lawsuit against the one from PA from an inmate who was tortured and abused by him.

It is reprehensible what these men and women did to those prisoners. The harm they have done to first and foremost the prisoners, and then to their country, just goes exponentially on and on.

How I wish (albeit, selfishly) that what happened in Iraq would open up a dialogue regarding the overall treatment of inmates right here in American prisons. Dare we hope such discussion might come about? Dare we hope that finally the silence that has been so much a part of the Judicial System in the United States will be broken and Americans will take an interest in what is going on?

Well, one can only hope...

jims

Jims,
We can only hope...Ive heard stories from our prisons here that make me sick to my stomach. Some say they were only following orders but thats hogwash! I saw this webpage link with some of the pictures... http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/

Why aren't we talking about what the Iraqis have done to our soldiers both American & British? I know in England many do not support their soldiers. Well I support the troops both American & British. That does not excuse any soldier from dishonoring their country & themselves. I am a prior Air Force Military Police Officer. They are a disgrace to this country & the uniform. They will receive military justice. Make no mistake about that. They will be punished & severely. They are not typical of US Forces or Military Police.

I agree with everything you said jim'sgeek. The Iraqi's didn't ask us to come over there and topple their government. It is absolutely scary to think of the harm that these soldiers have done to the reputation of our country. I surely hope that they all get prison time. Yes, it's hogwash that it was on orders from above. When you're asked to do something that is wrong, you need to refuse to do it!!

I went searching for info on PTO of this student experiment in the 70's and wouldn't you know today under world news there was discussion about this, and how it sheds insight into the iraqi and other prisoner abuse.
http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=589020#post589020

I am totally sickened by these photos on so many levels that i cannot even begin to articulate my feelings. I can only say that i am ashamed that these soldiers are Americans.

I have heard comments regarding the treatment of our soldiers by the Iraqis -- how they drag them through the streets after they are killed. I wonder if they treat our captured soldiers with humiliation, degradation, and sexual abuse though. And when it comes right down to it, does it really matter? Would we really want our soldiers to be put on their level, if that's what they were doing? I think not. One of the big concerns and criticisms of western society in general and American society specifically is that we are a sexually perverse society. Well, making Iraqi soldiers strip naked and then positioning them in pyramids atop one another; raping them (or threatening rape) with broom handles, poking at their genitals, allowing women to witness their nudity -- all of that just backs up their ideas that we are a lascivious, immoral population. 99.99% of our soldiers could be upstanding citizens. But this is what will be remembered. This is the legacy we will leave to the Iraqi people. I hope it will ultimately serve as the death knell of the George W. Bush Presidency.

CET -- I caught the interview with one of the authors of that Stanford study in the '70s the other day. He was on NPR's "Talk of the Nation." Interesting that the study was done so many years ago and nothing was ever done about it. I don't think there is wholesale abuse at all the prisons, but I do believe there are pockets of abusive officers who, if given unfettered authority to do whatever they wanted with the inmates would soon turn to the kind of abuse described in the study. If you go onto the union site and read the postings there from some of the officers, you get a good idea of how many of them feel towards the inmates. Not to give inmates a free ride, either. The visiting room sergeant at Menard had an inmate throw boiling water at him (when they were still allowed to have their stingers). Others have had feces thrown at them, been stabbed with shivs, etc. I don't condone that either, but when you keep a man locked up 23 hours a day, 365 days a year, it seems to me you are creating a fetid environment where their behaviors will just foment to the point of explosive rage.

You know, if I were just QUEEN OF THE WORLD, I could solve all the problems!! :D It's easy sitting here at my computer!

jims...

Well, I'm so glad you posted this, jims, I've been waiting for someone to mention it since I first heard more than 3 weeks ago that at least 2 of the people involved were, in real life, prison guards!!!

Believe me, I've already written to newspapers, television and radio over here saying you can't expect anything else from people who are Correctional Officers, as this is the normal treatment of ALL inmates within the American system. I've sent emails to Tony Blair and to my own Member of Parliament who, I might add, was against the war in the first place, and who has offered all the help he can give me regarding the prison service in the US. And, Rosita, they will ONLY be punished because they've been found out, for no other reason. Colin Powell was interviewed on the television here when this first hit, as I say, more than 3 weeks ago, and he couldn't understand what all fuss was about. Of course he couldn't, as I've told everyone I come into contact with, it's the NORM so why should he be disgusted by it!!!!

Yes, Rosita, many in Britain were and are against the war. In fact, I'd say the majority, we still can't understand why Tony Blair brown noses up to Bush when they don't even have the same politics. But now the war has happened we know that we have to stay there to clear up the mess we've made, that includes the near civil war we've created. I will NEVER support the troops, never have and never will and, as they join up to fight for their country, and that's what I pay them to do, I have no sympathy for any of them. If they don't like what they're doing then get out, don't take it out on the prisoners!!!

Unfortunately, they look on Muslims as being less than human. The Crusaders did EXACTLY the same when they tried to instil Christianity on the 'heathens' and slaughtered and tortured anyone who stood up for their own beliefs. Do we really expect things to be different now???? That's why the Red Cross isn't liked in the Middle East, it's a sign of death, torture and genocide, but the troops still fly it and expect to be welcomed with open arms.

The fact that the Red Cross and Amnesty told Blair this was happening many weeks ago is providing some more nails for his coffin and then, believe me, the next leader of the Labour Party WILL NOT treat Bush as his long lost brother and will listen to his Party members, or we'll do the same to him. With us it's not the electorate that gets rid of the leader (Prime Minister) it's the members of his/her Party and I'm just waiting for the day I can tell Tony Blair to get on his bike and ride away!! The British soldiers who have carried out these atrocities will be dealt with most severely but I don't think even that's enough. The institutional racism within our armed services has bred these morons and I just hope that will be looked at, too.

As a footnote, it's occured to me that you may not know what to 'brown nose' is. Well, it's an old expression that means someone has his nose so far up the other's a** that it comes out brown!! Sorry, but I thought it really suited here.

Rose

Well said, Rose! And we have the same "brown nose" saying over here! You know, I have never been one to rah-rah over the troops, either. Especially since it is an all-volunteer military. They did, after all, sign up. And perhaps they signed up just for the benefits and not believing they would ever have to go into action somewhere. But that's their own fault. If they're ignorant enough to sign up for military service and not understand the potential risks, that's their own stupid faults. They have to take the bad with the good. When all the hoopla over that one chick who had the staged so-called "rescue" from the hospital -- Jessica, Jesse whatever -- everybody was jumping on the bandwagon to call her a bonafide hero. Bologna! Her unit screwed up and got lost and she got captured. It happens. Contrary to what gung-ho nationalistic Americans want to believe, our military is not perfect. It took years to figure out just how messed up our troops were over in Vietnam and to separate fact from fiction regarding that whole fiasco and the same thing is happening here. For some reason, we want to label anyone who puts on a military uniform (or a police uniform, or a prison guard uniform) as doing something humanitarian, and sacrificial. I don't see it that way. I see them as perpetuating a culture of violence and totalitarianism and Imperialism. Though there may be the odd few who sign up for those reasons, the vast majority do because because of the benefits associated with service. Like educational benefits. Believe me, there are other ways to get a college education without joining the military. My daughters both have college degrees paid for entirely by themselves and never once did they consider joining a reserve unit or, god forbid, an active military unit, in order to accomplish their goals. There are so many worthy causes worth celebrating, in this country and in the world. People putting themselves in harms's way for true humanitarian causes all around the world who dedicate their lives to saving people's lives. But who gets the yellow ribbons? Who gets the sappy media coverage? Whose names get read on national television? Soldiers who are trained to kill people. Yes, yes, I know. Let's be politically correct -- they're trained to keep the peace, save innocent citizens' lives, and yada yada yada. But every single one of them goes through extensive basic training on how to kill another human being and not think twice. And no, I don't go to sleep each night feeling any safer from terrorist attacks. Get real. At anytime, anyplace, terrorists could unleash an attack that would make 9/11 look like a kick in the knee. The only thing that's changed is that thanks to Ashcroft and his Patriot Act, we're all living under George Orwell's Big Brother fantasy.

I have no idea why Tony Blair supports Bush the way he does. Unless he feels some sort of misguided loyalty to the United States because of World War II. He would have so much more credibility in the world if he had gone his own way. I do like how he supported Bill Clinton, however, or at least Bill Clinton's Presidency if not the man himself! That was kind of cool! I'll bet he regrets his support of the war and certainly GW -- and he must certainly and sadly realize that extrication is going to prove much more difficult than taking a stand against going to war to begin with. I applaud what France and other nations did and what Spain is doing.

jims...

I'm with you all the way and I'll also tell you a story about just how well trained the USAF was, notice I say was because I really don't know for sure if anything's changed.

Way back when Cruise Missiles were brought over to our shores for the 'limited nuclear war' that was gong to happen, I was part of a group called 'Cruisewatch' and we did just that, watched it's every move. When the convoys came out of hiding from the base at Greenham Common they couldn't move without we were there to see what was going on. Cruisewatch was mainly made up of women, and as in all things, it's the woman who take the lead, the women who are ready to stand up and be counted on any issue. Now, I won't go into great detail as to everything we did, but I will say that time and time again we managed to get into the convoy at nght, write messages with marker pens on the rolls of toilet paper, and get back out again!!! Now, if we untrained, uindisciplined, young and old women could do this what harm could a bunch of terrorists do??? There's a really famous photo over here of one of the transports being stopped right near Stonehenge and women climbed up on to it. The only reason we were able to do it is that the driver went the wrong way and got himself lost!! How the hell it happened we still don't know, but what a photo op that made, and it was on the front pages of every single newspaper in Britain and, as I say, is so famous. Not just that photo was famous but the words 'Greenham woman' still brings me a lot of respect from people. We were very well known and respected.

Why did we do it? Exactly for the reasons you give, jims. We were against violence in any form, mindless men playing their silly little war games needed to know there were millions of women out there who didn't like it. By the way, the US idea of having a 'limited nuclear war' was to limit it to Europe, hence the missiles on our land and right on my doorstep.

I lived in a military training area and there were garrisons all around me. I've seen them out there learning to kill and enjoying it. It's what most join up for over here, to play with guns as they can't do it outdside of the forces, not here, it's not allowed. If they think all the target practice is just to give them a little bit of enjoyment they're sadly mstaken. And I have several soldiers mum's and sibling's living in the same street as me now. All flying their English flags and making me feel so sick!! When one of them comes home in a body bag they know to stay well clear of me. I honestly feel like burning the damn flags but I expect I'd be the one to get arrested.

Rose

I am tired of the hate of US and other countries (Britain ) who have helped our country ever since the terrible events of September 11. Yes I have news for you. American women soldiers who were captured behind the lines, not just in Iraq, have been raped. When I signed up for miliary service I knew I could go to war. Possibly captured. But I did not sign up for rape. Well I do support the troops. That does not mean I like the war. I went in because I had no chance for money for college. I had no family that cared about me. That's why I served. And I served PROUDLY. I am still PROUD of my miltary service. I am a better person because of it. So unless you served.....you have NO IDEA what its like in there. :mad:

If Bush and Blair hadn't sent them in there wouldn't be any of this trouble. So , ultimately, they are the ones to blame. And there's ALWAYS an option to the military, even if it means, like I did, not following the occupation you would have wanted. Rosita, you don't know our backgrounds so please do not judge and make sweeping statements. Has it occurred to you that service may just have changed our minds? And there's a good many ex-US service men and women who objected to this war ever starting.


And, Rosita, I was married to a serviceman for 17 long years so I've also seen it all from another side. And I might say, I kept my mind at all times, I was still able to think for myself and form my own opinions on everything, something that's frowned upon by the Army, and had me branded as an 'activist' and, boy, were they ever right.

Rose

Rosita, I disagree that you had to go into the military to pay for your education. There are many other avenues -- believe me because I'm still going to school, still taking out the loans, still paying for them, still applying for grants and scholarships and working hard to earn them. I was also married to a man who was one of the last to get drafted back in the early 70's and have to serve against his will. I've lived on bases overseas, been around regular army attitudes as well as draftee I-don't-wanna-be-here attitudes. I had a father-in-law who was a black beret and served two tours of duty in Vietnam and loved it. A very odd individual, to say the least. He came out and became a policeman where he could continue his pseudo authority. A lot of people choose to serve in the military and that's fine... just as long as they don't expect me to bow down and kiss their boots because I have a totally different philosophy. I am surprised you didn't expect rape to be a possible consequence of your service. That would have been one of the first things I thought about. Nurses in WWII had to think about it. I think about it every time I come home late at night or walk through the parking lot at the shopping center in the dark. I'm always thinking about it as I walk down alleyways to get to where my car is parked, and I am alert to the possibility whenever I cross the campus. I'm quite certain I would have realized the risk was even greater as a 20-year-old female soldier. To use the vernacular of my astute 13-year-old, "well, DUH!" It's actually a rather powerful and effective weapon our enemies have against us. I'm sorry it happened to you, but, again, a female in the military... well, goes with the territory, sadly. I still do not understand nor will I ever understand why anyone would want to join up. But we all make choices, don't we? Many people think I'm crazy because I'm working to become a teacher and my goal is to work in inner city schools where the physical and mental risk is much greater, a very real threat to my person. If I meet up with bodily harm or rape someday, I certainly am not going to cry foul since I am going into it with full knowledge that this is a real possibility. That would be the height of hypocrisy.

I think some of the reservists go into it because of the lack of jobs. They need money to make ends meet. I don't think they bargained for a long protacted time like it has been, as a possibility.

As I SAID I had no choice. I lived in an abusive household. With a psycho step-father who I had to run from everyday of my life. I had no choice but to go somewhere where I could work & be able to live. No rape is not part of signing up. I did not say I was raped. But to say thats part of it- what kind of sick crap is that? I was only talking about earlier when you said Americans are not being raped by Iraqis. I understand the concept of everyday & being careful as a woman. I was also a cop. So I can protect myself.

I'm afraid jim's is right again, EVERY woman who goes into the services faces rape as a consequence of her actions. This has been the way of the world since the year dot and it's one of the main reasons there aren't women on the front-line in the British Army. It's thought that the average soldier would have his mind taken off the job at hand if he thought he had to protect the women's 'honour' as well.

And, Rosita, I have just heard of video film that's going to be shown later on British TV that shows American troops raping an Iraqi woman. Not content with doing the act themselves they've had the audacity to film it, no doubt to get their jollies off every time they watch. And this from a group of people who were supposedly going to make life better for the the average Iraqi!!!!!!!!!

This is all the way Correction Officers, not all, but enough, behave daily and I'll be sending out press releases to that effect later, trying to keep the pressure on until someone responds and maybe, just maybe, it will help our men in prison.

By the way, it's been announced by the British Government that our troops are expected to be in Iraq for the next 10 years. We ubderstand just what a mess we've created there!!!!!
Rose

I thought the following might be appropriate as it shows why this thread was started. It comes from a Correctional Officer's chat board and it's a discussion about the photos of Iraqi prisoners being subjected to abuse. Remember, this is a serving Illinois CO.

WE DO WHAT IT TAKES TO GET INFORMATION FROM THE ENEMY. LIKE THEY SAY WAR IS HELL

This from a man or woman who signs themself KILL THEM ALL

Enough said, I think.

Rose

And I would just like to offer this link for a timely and accurate opinion piece:

http://www.counterpunch.org/zaitchik05072004.html

jims...

This is an interesting topic. First I was an Air Force brat, then an Air Force wife, then the mother of an infantryman. One uncle's image is on the Korean War Memorial (he's still MIA), another lost his life at Pearl Harbor. Both of my brothers served in the Air Force. Why do so many people enlist? The reasons are as many as there are enlistees. Some for the experience, some for the benefits, some out of a sense of duty to their country, some out of belief in a certain cause, some as a way out of wherever they are, and others for reasons totally unknown. But, enlist they did. I won't say the recruiter gave them the low-down, nitty-gritty on being in the military, but unless these people are from a culture existing in the deep forests for the last century or so, they had to know that war is hell. Haven't the rumblings been obvious? The rhetoric was so thick, you could cut it with a knife. Now that deployments are extended and stop-loss measures active, there's an awful lot of grumbling and groaning from the ranks. Did they think this was McWar? In on Monday, out on Friday, victorious and vainglorious? The "drive-thru" mentality has permeated even the military. It all looks so easy on television (especially after the Gulf War) and it's so very close to the video games most of the troops grew up playing, that they think when they're finished, the war is finished. Turn it off, put it back on the shelf to play with another day. I wish that were the case. Despite the first rush of patriotism after 9/11 (when many who are now complaining VOLUNTARILY enlisted), the bloom is now gone from the flower, and the wilting and withering has begun. This "war" in Iraq is a real conundrum--our objectives have shifted, our tactics have been altered, and now our resolve has waned. We knew going in there would be casualties. And each one is like a stab in my heart. Some mother's son or daughter, some child's father or mother, someone loved by someone else is not coming home. That is a fact of war. If I had the power to change it, I would. I would make war clean and crisp and bloodless and death-free. I would bring each one of our military home a hero (redundant, but okay by me). Yes, there is abuse in the system. It is, after all, a system. It is also a system of humans--all too fallible and all too vulnerable. Should those in charge be held to the highest standard? Of course. Should those subordinates who allegedly carried out these alleged orders (the abuse of Iraqi prisoners) be punished for doing their duty? Or should they have refused to obey a lawful order and been punished for that, instead? It's not necessarily a matter of whether the order was "right" or "wrong," but rather, was it "lawful." If public knowledge of these incidents opens the door to the military (in)justice system, so be it. The "officers" in charge are all too often younger and less-experienced than their subordinates. This leads to rash decision-making with disastrous consequences for all concerned. Prison management was not part of their education, I'll bet. It is quite disheartening to know that Americans who have sworn to uphold the Constitution and the Bill of Rights have violated so many of the fundamental principles of our nation. Further, that they violated principles of international law and the laws of war should be a basis for just punishment. It is insufficient to hold a "tit for tat" attitude when our nation took it upon itself to march in, topple their leadership (not a bad thing, in itself), and proceed to administer a sovereign nation. We are not terrorists, we are not barbarians, we are not...! We are a nation of laws and our troops are bound to uphold those laws, no matter what they face on the field of battle. Orders or no orders, common sense comes into play here somewhere, surely! If it was "common sense" that caused those accused of abuse to enlist, then common sense should have prevailed when someone pulled out a camera to document the activities of the guards. If a courts-martial finds them guilty, they will face the consequences of their actions. Personal responsibility is a hard lesson to learn for some.

Charles A. Graner Jr, one of the guards who faces charges in the Iraqi prison abuse/sexual hummiliation scandal, twice, faced federal lawsuits for abusing prisoners. He was accused of, among other things, forcing a prisoner to eat a razor blade. He has also faced charges of spousal abuse. Here is a couple links to stories, one of them quoting Nicky Yarris.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/fayette/s_193191.html

http://www.heraldstandard.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11631765&BRD=2280&PAG=461&dept_id=480247&rfi=6

Thank you, flygirl, for that, I'm putting together a lot of facts like that to send to my Member of Parliament as I believe as many people as possible should know. I might even include it in some stuff I'm going to send Cherie Booth (Tony Blair's wife) who is a great advocate for human rights.

Rose