I was watching the election results (hope everyone voted) when they started talking about this 12 and 13 year old boy somewhere in Washington, who killed their playmate who was a special ed student. The boy was stabbed 34 times and left dead.

The mother was crying when she found out that they were going to try her babies as adults for 1st degree murder.:yuck: :argh Can you imagine these babies in an adult prison system. If our own husbands and boyfriends are going through, I simply can't imagine these poor little kids. That's an automatic death sentence. They said they were not going to put them in juvinile detention because there was no hope for rehibilitation.:argh :pissed:

My problem is this--we don't know what drove these kids to do what they did, or what kind of stress/pressure their mom was under, or what kind of environment they are being raised in, and my heart goes out to the victims family, but facing 20years to life in prison, or even the dealth penalty is not going to bring the victim back. These kids are 12 and 13 for God's sake. Some may say where is the justice for the victim. I'm not saying they shouldn't pay for what they did, but how can you honestly sentence a 12 and 13 year old. If that was my child, I would want justice, but reasonable justice--which is the problem. What will they consider reasonable justice?

The attorney for the family has placed an appeal to the supreme court to overturn the judge's ruling to try these children as adults. I have a 13 year old soon to be 14, a 10 year old soon to be 11, and an 8 year old soon to be 9. When I look into their faces, no matter how bad they get on my nerves, I just can't imagine them with any kind of violence at all in their minds to the point where they will go to the extent to act out brutal violence on another child because we can all agree kids will be kids (fighting, calling names, etc.)But to wake up one day and find out that not only did they kill someone, but they will be tried as adults and sent to an adult prison. :yuck:

There needs to be a total overhall in all prison systems across the nation. People just don't seem to understand that although they say rehabilitation, there is none. These kids will die in this system. This is a trial to watch.
We need to pray that the victim's family find peace in the midst of their loss, and that these children will have some mercy in a justice system that is cold, heartless, uncaring and inhumane to those already on the inside. Those who have a get tough on crime attitude, has no idea what our prision system is like, and they need to spend 90 days in prison, with 30 being in seg, then they will sing a different tune.

I don't even know what to say. I do agree with you that these children do not need to be placed in an institution with grown men. Could you imagine what would happen to them. Man, it is hard enough for a full grown man with that ability to take care of himself to stay safe, but children. How can someone say there is no hope or help for a baby? It is that thinking that got the prison system in it's current situation. There is no rehabilitation for anyone in this country, it is a numbers thing, whether it be votes or money. What a frustrating world we live in!! Prayers going out to all concerned in this horrible ordeal.

Yes, this country needs to define what a juvenile is and then stick to it. I say a juvenile is anyone who is not old enough to vote for the laws that can put him behind bars for the rest of his life.

Some states have adopted blended sentencing laws which I believe are a good idea IF the state appropriates funding to fulfill their end of it, not just adequately but with excellence. A blended sentence sends a juvenile to juvenile lock-up until the age of 21. They are SUPPOSED to be given lots of therapy and the opportunity to be rehabilitated and set on the right path. If they continue to be troublemakers, don't follow the rules, don't actively participate in their own rehabilitation process, then when they turn 21, they face going to an adult prison to serve out an extended sentence. But if they demonstrate positive traits, and put real effort into their lives, then they might be able to go home at 21, or at least before a 20-life sentence.

I totally agree. I feel like writing to every state representative about this system. I am so fed up with it. There needs to be a change. I think I will begin to rattle some chains and find out how to get some petitions signed. I see why people march on Washington. Everyone who is marching on Washington, their cause should be our cause, because somewhere down the line, it might not affect us personally, but it will hit close to home. Something needs to be done. If no one is willing to fight, stuff like this will continue to happen. We need to watch not only the President, and other State Officials, but the judges that we are electing when we go to the polls. They are on the ballots too, and these are the same hardcore judges that people over look and remain in the court system who showed no mercy to even our loved ones who are currently incarcerated. Everyone who has ever has a love one or friend in the prison system, should make it their priority to be politically involved. It's not enough just to sit by and watch, because if the men, women, and children who are in prison are a forgotten cause, whether they belong there or not, they don't deserve to be treated less than a person.

BG, I understand your frustration. I definitely don't think that kids that young need to be in an adult facility. If they are put there, maybe someone with half a brain will have them put in protective custody at least.

I agree that the system needs a serious overhaul. Unfortunately, our elected officials are only concerned about one thing - getting more votes. This meaning that they will lock up whoever they have to, with their ridiculous new sentencing laws, and basically throw away the keys. I've tried rattling chains...it doesn't work. That's the sad part. Then they complain about prison overcrowding. It has me shaking my head more often than not.

Good luck, and let us know what you come up with. I know for me, it was just one form letter after another...

Kelly

There was a time a few years ago that I would have laughed at such a story, thinking it was someone's sick idea of a joke. Now that I know so much more about the US system it just makes me shake my head and wonder why the American people put up with it.

Do you know, even Saddam bowed to world pressure and stopped trying juveniles as adults? What he did outside the judicial system I don't know, but within it he took the humane view that these were children and should be treated as such.

We, in England, had a similar case not so long ago and these boys are, I believe, now free and living constructive lives. They had to take on new identities because of reprisals from some hot head who didn't believe in rehabilitation. There's always one who wants to make a name for themselves by killing the people involved in a murder, no matter how young they are. Now, does that remind you of anyone??

Rose

I Can't Imagine Him Being Tried As An Adult. I Just Don't Want To Imagine What That Mother Is Going Through. My Son Is 13, I Have Raised Him That He Is Responsible For His Own Actions. He Is Very Mature In That Sense. Most Kids His Age Are Not! Oh My I Feel For All Involved In This, And I Agree They Need To Make Up Their Minds On What A Juvenile Is. They Shouldn't Change It Because Of The Type Of Crime.

i wonder if the child needs medication of some sort. I did not hear about the news report. sounds so awful.

Rose, I remember that case in England. Wasn't the victim 8 or something? I do remember that.

I have a 16 year old and a 13 year old. I have always treated them like individuals, letting them make their own decisions (within reason of course). They always knew though that if they messed up, they faced and suffered the consequences. My son got caught driving without a permit not too long ago. He called me to come to where they were, and when I spoke to the police officer, he told me that as much as he'd like to, he couldn't just let him off scott-free. I told him, right in front of my son, that I didn't expect him to, and to do what he thought was best. My son about died! He thought mom was going to come and rescue him. Not a chance. He ticketed my son for two violations, and since he was a juvenile, he had to go to court. I went with him, but basically just stood in the background and watched. I told my son he was going to go through every bit of it, and take whatever punishment was given to him. Now he knows I'm serious, and I won't come rescue him if he gets himself in trouble. I work in the legal field and know many people in the system, including cops in the town my son was stopped in. I could have made it go away if I wanted to, but not a chance...you play, you pay.

I absolutely do not agree with the punishment that these two kids are facing, however. There is (or should be) a limit. They should absolutely be held accountable, but they are basically being sent to a life of torture and possibly death if they are sent to an adult prison. Let's all hope that this comes out okay.

Kelly

The victim in the English case was Jamie Bulger and he was younger than 8, he was pre-school age. He was at a shopping centre with his mother when 2 boys took him away. If I remember rightly one of them might have been 8 years old, the other around 10. What the mother was doing not to see two boys come up to her and her son and then walk away with the toddler has never been explained!!!

Rose

Yes! Now I remember. It was all over the news here in the States. How awful.

My daughter is 13, and whenever we go somewhere I still always make her either walk in front of me so I can see her, or hold my hand (which she doesn't mind, she and I have always been really affectionate). But, she won't let me hold her hand around her friends...LOL. If she's at a friend's house, I always make her call me to come pick her up if she can't get a ride home, even if it's only a block away. When we're walking somewhere together, like I said, she's either in front of me or on the inside, away from the road. Isn't it just awful that it has to come to that??? I remember as a kid, I would leave the house and wouldn't come in until dinner, then go back out, and my parents never thought twice about it. It's a real shame.

Kelly

Kelly I Agree With What You Did With Your Son 100%. I Am The Same Way. My Son Tries To Push Things To Test Me And Finds Out Right Away It's All On Him. I Hope He Remembers This As He Grows Older And Realizes That If He Wants To Keep Out Of Trouble, Then He Needs To Be Mature And Think Through His Decisions. But Again I Have To Say, There Are So Many Kids His Age That Aren't Taught That And Will Always Have A Parent There To Bail Them Or Make Excuses For Thier Actions. And There Are Alot Of Kids That Age That Do Not Understand The Actual Consequences For Thier Actions. That Is So Sad To Me.

I agree, I've seen it time and time again with my son's friends - parents who don't know where their kids are, what they're doing, who they're with, etc. My kids don't leave the house unless I know where they're going, what time they'll be home, and who they'll be with. I find that with my son, however, most times I'm getting fed a line of crap, which I guess is normal considering he's 16. When he got stopped by the police that time, he was with some friends who had some pot paraphernalia on them. The officer told me that if they hadn't claimed it was theirs, since my son was operating the vehicle, he would have gone down for that too. I told my son that if that happened, and he was put in the back of the police car, I would just stand there and wave bye bye. The one kid he was with, whose car it was that he was driving, was walking around like it was one big game, a circus. I told my son that if I ever saw him near my house or my son again, the cops would be the least of his problems.

I don't consider myself a strict parent, in any way. My kids have never been hit, they get grounded when they do something I consider serious, but that's about it. I let them have their individuality, as far as their clothes, their hair style, their music taste, things of that nature. But they know there's a line, and if it's crossed, it's their ass, plain and simple.

My son is doing horrible at school, only because he couldn't care less. He tested at 2 points shy of genious level on his testing. He's not a dumb kid. But he doesn't care. He keeps wanting me to let him drop out and get his GED. I said sure, have fun living with your father, because you're not dropping out and living under my roof. It's the easy way out and I won't have it. I won't tolerate them giving up, especially on something that's so important to their future, even though they don't see that yet.

I don't know why I'm posting all this...LOL. Probably to re-enforce your point CLEE, that parenting styles and parents that actually pay attention do make a difference, if only more parents would actually pay attention.

Kelly

The Government here is, slowly, bringing in laws that make parents responsible for their children. The first is with truancy. If a child constantly doesn't attend school the parents face a prison term. It's hoping to extend this to cover those parents who let their children run riot on the streets at night, at weekends and dutring schol holidays, getting up to all sorts of illegal business. And, believe me, I am going to love that one because I have one family living near me that's responsible for around 75% of break-ins and criminal damage in this area!!

Rose

Kelly,

I have a 13-year-old son who also tested extremely high when he was tested at 12. He was reading adult science fiction in third grade, and believe me, content became a challenge! But he just has had it with school. Hates it, hates the work involved. I swear some nights he puts more effort into getting OUT of doing homework than it would take to just do it. Thankfully, he is now of an age where he wants to go do things on weekends with his friends, and guess what? If he gets any unsatisfactory remarks from his teacher's on the end-of-week report, he doesn't get any extracurricular activities for the weekend. He tested me on this for a couple of weeks, found out I was serious, and now, grudgingly, does at least enough work to get satisfactory remarks and occasional good remarks when he's actually interested in the subject matter. I personally think there should not be a law allowing kids to drop out at 16 on their own, without parental consent. But then, I don't think kids should be allowed to drive until they have a high school diploma! My daughter, by choice, waited until she was 18 to drive. She loved taking the bus, biking, and walking. Now she owns an ice cream shop and makes all the ice cream, and drives a big old truck.

jims -

Ever since my son turned 16, all he's been concerned with is driving, driving, driving. He straightened up enough to where I got him his learner's permit, but now he's back to making no effort whatsoever at being responsible and expects me to let him drive enough to get his driver's license. Not gonna happen.

That was a fantastic idea you had about not letting kids get their licenses until they get a high school diploma! I wish someone around here would make that a law.

Unfortunately a kid who is 16 can drop out of school if they choose to. But my son knows if he does that, I'm calling his father to come and get him, which is a fate worse than death for my son. I keep telling him he's going to be the oldest senior in high school history, because I don't care how long it takes, or how many summers he has to miss out on fun, he's going to keep doing it until he gets it right.

Good luck with yours! :)

Kelly

We must all parent our children to the best of our abilities and in our own way. We need to treat our young charges as individuals, giving them room to grow and become productive adults and I think it is important that they meet age appropriate challenges on their own. Having worked with young people through the years, mainly gang members, I have come to the conclusion that it takes an effort by everyone that comes into contact with young people to set an example for them to follow.

When I hear of young people acting out in the way discussed in this thread my heart goes out to everyone involved, their victims, themselves, the families and communities. I believe the problem is much larger than the legal system and its many flaws. We must begin at the beginning and decide to become involved when we see something out of place in a child's life. Too many times I have heard yes I always knew he might do something like this one day. How tragic is that statement? How many times have we looked the other way when we know that intervention is essential to a young persons well-being. They say it takes a village to raise a child. They are right.

No I am not just some bed wetting liberal talking here, well okay maybe I am. I do not believe that we accomplish anything when we try our children as adults. With all the resources available in our country it is a disgrace that we should even have to enter into this discussion. I pray each night for each and every child who has fallen through the cracks today. I pity a world that allows it to happen.

My plea: Please be a positive influence in the lives of all children you come into contact with. It just might be contagious.

Patty

In Washington when a juvenile is sentenced as an adult, they do not go into the mainline. They are housed in a juvenile section of the prison until they reach 18 and then transferred to the adult section.
The reason these kids were tried as adults was because the murder was premeditated and do to the violence of the crime. I'm not giving my opinion either way, just giving info.

I haven't read thru all the posts. I do feel any child who intentionally murders someone needs to be in a locked, secure, juvenile facility. They shouldn't be tried as adults and put in prison with adults, but they sure need to be locked up so that they don't kill or hurt others. These kids had parents who ignored lots of signs all along the way. Kids do not just suddenly murder someone. They are aggressive, angry, uncaring, bullying, long before. I did day care for a living for four years because I had a second daughter who was special needs. My special ed daughter was called names, taunted, punched and her toys stolen every time she put them down in our yard. A lot of kid's parents just say, no no, don't do that. When my day care kids did things like shove a kid off a trike intentionally, hit a kid over the head with a truck, they knew I was MAD and that it would NOT be tolerated. In neighborhoods where everyone is renting, it is hard to know the parents of kids that are bullies. There were a couple times I put the fear of God and CET in kids who were tormenting my very sweet and vulnerable daughter. I once was at her school when she was about 10, brought something she forgot to her, and she was on the playground. Another special ed kid sucker punched her in the kidneys from behind while I was talking to her! The teachers watching the playground did nothing! And I have to tell you, I put the fear of God in that kid if he touched her again. Sometimes the only language a kid understands is that they'll be in BIG troublee if they hurt other kids! There is something VERY wrong with the way a kid has been raised when they stab a special ed kid to death 33 times!! Many times they are a kid who is so damaged, that they can't live in society. I feel they need to be given a chance with the best therapy possible for a kid who is a psychopath. They need to be an absolutely no nonsense environment, be aware of the enormity that they committed, and see if they are able to develop empathy for others. I am NOT a "kids will be kids" parent! I am a social worker with a masters degree, have mentored 5 families under child protection, as well as worked with plenty of dysfunctional families as a social worker. I am a treatment foster parent. I am STILL a no nonsense parent who will NOT tolerate kids making fun of others for any reason. I don't allow talk of beating up a kid, vandalizing their house, etc. I make my teens come to church with me. If they don't agree to it, they don't live here.
Have you ever read the book "children without a conscience?" Usually kids who are capable of murder have had severe abuse and neglect at a very early age. And again, too many people have looked the other way when these kids were not getting their most basic needs met. They are angry, as no one seems to care about them.

I agree with you CET, 100%. My son had some serious anger issues a few years ago, he was mouthy, disrespectful, ignored all house rules, basically did what he wanted. Everyone I talked to about it said, "oh, it's just his age", or "he's a teenager, what do you expect?" I agree that some of it might have been teen angst or whatever you want to call it, but I knew if I didn't do something he would wind up in a world of hurt. I took him to therapist after therapist until I found one that actually paid attention and didn't dismiss my claims as being a paranoid mother. He's on medication now, and has really turned into a great kid, if he would only work harder at school.

My daughter has a friend who has two sisters and they're being raised by a single mom. She is constantly over at my house crying, or calling on the phone upset because of some very tiny infraction that she got in trouble for, or her younger sisters put the blame on her for something they did and she got in trouble for it. She has serious issues, and they are not being addressed. I will admit she can be somewhat of a drama queen sometimes, but I've seen some of this first hand and if her mother keeps ignoring her and putting the blame on her, she's going to have one messed up kid.

It's a sad world we live in where adults are punished by disciplining their own children. I know a few good smacks when I was growing up stopped my behavior dead in its tracks. Try it now and you're looking at jail time. Are we to be surprised then when we hear more and more stories of kids killing kids, simply because of what color they choose to wear, what color their skin is, or if they just look at another kid cross-eyed?

These lawmakers are out of control. Something needs to be done, but like a lot of parents, no one's listening.

Kelly

You're right CET, this whole situation is just sad. Some of us have good parenting skills, and there are those of us who don't, and when that happens, our children are the ones who suffer. There is no handbook that tells us how to raise children, but I believe in how God said it best--train up a child the way in which he/she will go, and he/she will not depart from it.
I tell my children everyday, that home is your bootcamp training ground, and if you can't handle the rules at home, how can you handle the things that you will encounter out in the street. I tell my children not only to be book smart, but be street smart and use wisdom in every decision you make because for every action there is a reaction, and it could result in a good or bad consequense.
I think that when our children go astray we as parents don't want to admit that we dropped the ball when it is so easy to find blame somewhere else. It gets difficult at time when you have to work, pay bills, and find time to entertain our children, so we let tv and video games do the entertaining for us.
In the "old" days, we played board games, and found creative things to challenge us, and there were more family oriented things on tv--like the Waltons, Little House on the Prairie, Lassie etc. and for video games, we had pac man, galaxy etc. Now we have the Simpson (Bart always disrespecting his parents) and video games that consist of blood and gore, killing, car crashes etc. I don't let my children get near these programs. I sensor everything first and then decide if they should watch it. They only get tv on the weekend, and through the week when school is in, they read, and do other things. In the summer, we are at the zoo, museums, traveling, shopping, dining out--just spending time together no matter how tired I am. I told my children until they reach the age where they can take care of themselves independently--I refuse to see them fail.
When they leave my house, I don't want them to have any excuse to come back because that will be my time to live my life once again, but as long as they are dependent on me, I don't have a life. Yes I treat myself to some things, and I don't neglect myself, but I can never truly live until they are on their own---I guess that will be during my retirement years. :p I see now why the good age is 50+ because the kids are grown, out of college, have their own life, and you have no one to care for but yourself--even though you know that they will need things from time to time.
I don't know how this mother was raising her children or what could have possible gone wrong to make them do something like this, but the whole situation is tragic for both the accused and the victim.

There's a great book I read by Richard Rhodes called, "Why They Kill." It outlines the four steps that must be "achieved" as such in sequence in order to complete the violentization process. I highly recommend it for anyone who is interested in seeing how a kid can grow up to become a sociopathic killer. It's a real eye-opener, and I wish more people in the justice system and social services would read it.