last wknd my husband, who is on parole, and i went to the tdcj pubic awarness meeting in huntsville. now i don't know if any of y'all were there but it was a total sham and he ended up getting arrested for simply asking a question. Now, i am afraid they will try to lock him back up behind all this. we are getting the media involved but who knows down the line what will happen. the whole dog and poney show took place soon after the ruiz case. we all know how frustrating prisoncrats can be but this was blatently lying. there were hundreds of family members there applauding the jailers. these folks refused to take any questions from the floor(a voilation of tx law) and the questions they did answer were not really answered but another run around scenario which they are oh so known for. anyone else have a comment? by the way tifa texas inmate family assoc. called my husband an embarassment for standing up against these pigs and asking that they respond to our concerns-
frustrated with reformist and scared,
relentless

This was a highly anticipated event. I hope that you will provide some facts as to what happened. I find it unreasonable that he would be arrested simply for asking a question.

This is such an important issue that I hope you will provide what details and observations and specific violations of law you are aware of. This way we are better able to support you. This also allows us the necessary information necessary to possibly intervene however is possible through political channels.

Respectfully,

Jim

I'm pretty sure there's more to this story than was posted here. Only thing I can find on the internet is pretty much biased towards the anarchist's point of view. It's nice to be able to stand up for your rights and speak out about injustices but you also have to balance that against the fact that you are on parole and under the direct supervision of people who may or may not want to just send you back to prison to ease their caseload.

I discussed this issue with Stuart DeLuca of TIFA. I am posting his reply to my inquiry in full for all concerned. It appears that there is in fact quite a bit more to this story.

> "James B. McCormick" wrote:
>
> I am very curious about what happened at the PACT conference. A very
> bizzarre post was made on www.prisontalk.com and I must ask you about
> it since TIFA was specifically mentioned.
>
Jim, thanks for asking. I was at the PACT COnference along with
several dozen TIFA members. Unfortunately, I happened to be out of the
auditorium when this "incident" occurred.

It took place during the presentation on inmate disciplinary
procedures. The individual mentioned in the post stood up at the back of
the auditorium and began shouting. No one seems to know exactly what he
said since most of it was incoherent, but it involved a demand that the
family members and groups "stand up for" their loved ones.

I understand that this individual claims to be the founder and leader
of an anarchist organization based in Austin. (I know, there's some
real disconnect in the very notion of an "anarchist organization," but
that's HIS claim, not mine!) He is a parolee who claims that he was a
"political prisoner." In fact, apparently he considers ALL inmates to
be "political prisoners."

He was removed from the auditorium by TDCJ personnel and was held in a
nearby room until Huntsville PD arrived. While he was being removed,
one of TIFA's Board members, Patsy Halanski, confronted him and informed
him that he does not represent TIFA and that his behavior was an
embarrassment to TIFA and the other family organizations. Linda Reeves,
executive director of InFO, also told him much the same thing.

It's my understanding that he was not arrested; he was released on
condition that he leave the premises.

He had brought with him a videotaping crew from the Austin public
access organization, and they taped the entire "demonstration." No
doubt it will be on the cable access channel eventually.

> Posted by relentless on 08-31-2002 01:54 PM:
>
> tdcj pact "conference"
>
> last wknd my husband, who is on parole, and i went to the tdcj pubic
> awarness meeting in huntsville. now i don't know if any of y'all were
> there but it was a total sham and he ended up getting arrested for
> simply asking a question.

The COnference's purpose was for TDCJ to present information about the
prison system to family members and others. Most of the presentations
covered TDCJ policies and procedures -- familiar ground to those of us
who have been involved in the system for several years.

He was not arrested for "simply asking a question," but for
intentionally disrupting the meeting and apparently intending to provoke
a larger disturbance. Disrupting a public meeting is a violation of
Texas law (misdemeanor).

>Now, i am afraid they will try to lock him
> back up behind all this.

It's certainly possible that his parole will be revoked.

> we are getting the media involved but who
> knows down the line what will happen. the whole dog and poney show
> took place soon after the ruiz case.

The Conference had nothing to do with the closing of the Ruiz case.
For the past five years, TDCJ staff members have attended TIFA's
conventions to present information about the prison system. It had
become a considerable expense and use of staff time, especially since
other organizations -- InFO, FILO, and TxCURE -- also had begun asking
for similar services. The PACT Conference was intended to provide all
such groups, and many others, with the same kind of information.

> we all know how frustrating
> prisoncrats can be but this was blatently lying. there were hundreds
> of family members there applauding the jailers. these folks refused to
> take any questions from the floor(a voilation of tx law) and the
> questions they did answer were not really answered but another run
> around scenario which they are oh so known for.

Aside from the gratuitous insults, this person doesn't know what she's
talking about. There is no "tx law" that requires people conducting a
public meeting to "take any questions from the floor." The Conference
clearly was not a public hearing (as defined by law).

The event ended with a panel of TDCJ's top administrators, who took
questions submitted in writing. This procedure gave them a way to avoid
dealing with "questions" that were only intended to provoke controversy,
or that were repetitious or irrelevant. We have followed the same
procedure at our conventions.

"Relentless" (who seems to have a good reason to avoid giving her name)
and her husband attended the PACT Conference not to gain information but
to create a disturbance and gain publicity. They were indeed an
embarrassment to the hundreds of people who were there for a more
serious and productive purpose.

If you wish to post this to another list, feel free, and don't hesitate
to include my name; I have nothing to hide.

Stuart M. DeLuca,
Chairman, TIFA

Thanks for the research and posting your reply to us. As we all know there are always two sides to every story. I appreciate knowing the other story.

Anytime Torrey. :)

I TRY to follow-up with facts whenver I can if the issue is of importance, and this PACT Conference was of extreme importance to everybody, not ONLY to those in Texas. We all know how systems share information (inefficiently, but shared nontheless). Texas is a leader and so is California. This has to do with their respective populations, wealth and power. The accusation was not something that I took lightly and did follow up on that.

Respectfully,

Jim

Thanks Jim, I had a feeling that there was more to the story than was presented.


Ralph

well,
i'm glad there were other sides to the story mentioned here. when tdcj was asked about educational opurtunities for inmates- the reply was that they have a policy to go over the criteria to see if the inmate is eligible- never once mentioning what that criteria is. when asked about the rampant staph infections the reply was a description of what staph is - no numbers no real statement on what action they propose in order to deal with this. when asked about correctional officers training- not one mention of the amount of time. you see folks, this is a blatent example of how the prisoncrats easily stay away from embarassing questions. i was sitting right next to chris when he asked the question "what is the ratio between guilty vs. non guilty in dealing with offender grievences?" he did not interupt or disturb the man who was on stage. he waited until the mans presentation was over. When the man told him that his question would not be answered chris asked if they thought that they owed it to the families to answer their questions.he did not even get out of his seat Then it was over- there was no shouting... There were many families that were under the same impression from the info tdcj provided on the internet- that there would be workshop spaces where we could all participate in an open discussion hence the title of the conference- public awarness on corrections today. Even the people from tx cure were extremely supportive of chris. first they tried to arrest chris for disrupting a public meeting, when they realized that wouldn't stick- they tried failure to identify even though his press pass with his name and photo was around his neck- this is actually when he was placed under arrest- illegal to arrest for failure to identify unless you have already been arrested- then when they illegally detained him in handcuffs and all and denied an attorney - they then realized the only charge they could really arrest him for was tresspass but they had to ask him to leave first- it is also illegal to arrest someone then unarrest them before booking them- this is all on video and was not intended as a protest- many families there were supportive... the tx law that was violated by tdcj is under the public meetings act where it states that any public meeting (ie. on a college campus hello sam houston univ.)that one eighth of the time of the meeting needs to have q&a from the floor... granted they chose 22 questions and scripted their answers to let us all know that everything is just fine- there were other folks who raised their hands from the floor and were not arrested. if you want to attack anarchist who believe in freedom for all and the end of expoitation and slavery that is another topic entirely- they have a long history i'm sure you don't even care about.the reason i don't have my name up is because there are gangs who have threatened our family because we are anti-racist and those gangs certainly use these types of sites to gain intel. I am of the opinion that all prisoners are political since it is the politics of our socio-economics and classist society that keeps our brothers and sisters locked up. we have more people in prison than any other nation in the land of the free this is certainly a sham. even in communist countries they don't hand out 25 year sentences unless you are chopping people up. here we pass them out for a dime of crack. so what was embarrassing to me was that these families were lectured at with info that is easily attainable already, that these families are so easily pushed aside time and time again and that when someone is brave enough to stand up support groups response is that he is some kind of crazy person...
in eternal solidarity with all victims of so called crime and punishment,
relentless

Yes, there are always two sides to a story and I think that we all, in this group know that. The men/women in our prison systems are not there because they just happened to get arrested for no reason at all. I believe that most of them did break the law in some form or another. I also believe that those who do break the law have to accept the consequences of their actions.

HOWEVER, we all know that Texas law (and right now I am only speaking about Texas because that is what I have had the most experience with right now and do not know about other states) can and DO take things out of context, twist facts and DO put people behind bars for years for stupid reasons.

I also feel that it was missed relentless feelings of frustration and that she was scared. It is not easy to support a loved one that is in prison, it is not easy to support someone that tries to stand up for their beliefs. Many people are not going to agree with the beliefs this person is standing up for. This is America though and we are allowed to believe the way we want and fight for the rights we feel are being trampled on.

What I am trying to say here is, instead of "getting to the truth" and finding out "the otherside of the story", I think it was missed the feelings and fears of relentless.

Do not be afraid to express your feelings and fears relentless. It has been said that we are not hear to judge or condemn and I stick behind that. I also have read about your husband and what you are living with. You have a lot to deal with and if you need to talk, you can e-mail or PM me.

Take Care
Joy

There seems to be quit a bit of confusion here. A conference is NOT a public meeting, therefore your premise is not valid when applied to this situation. A conference is not a meeting and it is very normal for questions to be submitted in writing before hand to eliminate those questions that either can't be answered, have already been answered or are inflammatory in nature.

Even at a public meeting, the question and answer time is very clearly spelled out and called for. At no time in your post did you ever suggest that such a time was called, but instead your husband interjected when he thought the person was finished speaking. This is disruptive in nature as by your own "testimony" here he was never recognized by the "chair". Your own statements here indicate he was never recognized, therefore he was in fact disruptive. You mention how other persons "raised their hands and asked questions", these people, again by your own words, were in fact recognized and given the floor and therefore were NOT disrupting.

You interchange the terms of conference and meeting quite frequently. Since this was not a meeting do discuss public policy with the intention of receiving public input, but rather a conference to inform the families and groups of policies in effect, I don't see how your accusation of violation of the "public meetings act" apply. Furthermore, questions were taken and answered from the floor as they were submitted in writing ahead of time. So even if such a law did apply, it appears to me that your stated requirement of 1/8th of the time be devoted to questions from the floor.

As for 'arresting and unarresting', I guess you have never heard the term detention or "arrest and release" because if you had done your homework, you would know that this is under the "powers of arrest" that a peace officer has. A private citizen may place a person under "citizen's arrest" however may never release that person because they are not covered under that same law. If your husband was in fact detained and released, instead of complaining, you should be thankful because by your own words, it sure sounds like he disrupted a public conference and therefore could be found to have "disturbed the peace". I have no doubt that this would have been a violation of the conditions of his parole and he could even be returned to TDCJ.

Anarchy is not how we live in America. Perhaps, for the edification of anybody following this post, a definition is in order:

an·ar·chy [ánnrkee ] noun

1. lack of government: the absence of any formal system of government in a society

2. chaotic situation: a situation in which there is a total lack of organization or control


[Mid-16th century. Via medieval Latin anarchia , from Greek anarkhia , from anarkhos "without a ruler," from arkhos "ruler."]

As you describe yourself and your husband as an anarchist, perhaps it is beneficial to take a look at that as well:

an·ar·chist [ánnrkist ] (plural an·ar·chists) noun

1. supporter of anarchism: somebody who rejects the need for a system of government in society and proposes its abolition

2. lawless person: somebody who tries to overthrow a society's formal system of government or behaves in a generally lawless manner and encourages others to do the same (disapproving)

an·ar·chis·tic [ànnr kístik ] adjective

I do not believe that anybody in this group or for the most part the people of the United States of America believe in acting an a lawless manner to be in the interest of our society. It appears that you and your husband both believe in exactly that by your own posts. You are entitled to believe whatever you like, however if you choose to violate the laws for the good of the people, then you should expect to pay teh consequences. At no time did you demonstrate anything that would convince any reasonable person that your husband is a "political prisoner". You have indicated that he is willing to disrupt a conference meant for the benefit of the public and that is in violation of the law. To indicate that "all prisoners are political" is unreasonable and absurd. If you truly beleive that there is no wrong as is suggested by your posts, why do you contradict yourself almost immediately because of "there are gangs who have threatened our family". Perhaps they are only excercising those very "rights" you are suggesting we all have?

I never imagined to see such a position placed forward in a serious manner as has been done here. To suggest the absolute "abolishment" of all prisons and just let everybody free because nobody did anything wrong is absurd. To denounce the process of seeking true and permenant reform because it isn't "fast enough" for you is also absurd.

I do not see the actions by you or your husband as "standing up" to anybody or representing anybody but yourselves. If you would like to argue that point, then go ahead, but while you are at it, explain how you can be an anarchist if you espouse to be representing anybody? Anarchists by their very definition of themselves and that term are selfish and self centered and have no regard for anybody else.

I promise that you do not, nor will ever, represent me or my views. A person who seeks to destroy our way of life is more of a danger to the process of reform than anything that TDCJ could do on its own. Therefore, I would be forced to question that persons motives and look upon all of their actions as gravely suspect.

I hope and pray that you will see the errors of this manner of thinking and acting and realize that such actions only serve to undermine the efforts being made by so many for the benefit of us family members and friends of those incarcerated. Some are in fact innocent and others are in fact guilty. Then, there is always the grey area in between. To abolish the system just because some misguided group wants to be free to terrorize the community is not what I consider positive action.

Submitted in my humble opinion.

James B. McCormick

WOW, now that was a mouthfull!

Joy you have some good points but the first post of Relentless was very vague and accusatory towards the pac conference. To my understanding she wanted a reaction from us (PTO) against the pac without further reason or explanation. I did not understand her to want a reaction to her "fear" as you stated. To me she left out some very valid truths and facts about what happened. Most of us could see that there was more to this than a unwarranted attack to her husband., Her case could have been read by us with more substence to thier cause if she would have tried to be fair and gave us all the facts instaead of thinking we would simply believe her husband was tossed out on his ear and arrested for asking a question.

I agree B-Ray!! WOW :hmm:

This is not a place to post judgements of ones actions. This is not a place to investigate to find the "truth" and put someone down. This is not a place to argue beliefs.

THIS is a place to listen to ones fears, anger, whatever the person has. This is not a court of law to decide who is guilty or who is not guilty. Relentless came to us to express her anger and fear about something that happened. Whether her husband was right or wrong at the moment is not the issue. The issue is we need to listen. PERIOD.

Joy

Joy, I do not agree with your assessment of this situation at all. Perhaps a more careful reading of the post is in order. She was not sounding off for just general support, and if she only wanted to vent, it would be better stated that and also placed in the "hear to hear you" forum.

When one looks at what was at stake here you will understand why those of us dealing with TDCJ take her actions and those by her husband and group VERY personally. Here was an event that was sponsored by TDCJ and put on for the families and they chose to take an opportunity to disrupt it with their political agenda. That makes her groups actions a danger to any possible continued communication with TDCJ in this type of public and open format.

You may find it not important, and if you are not dealing with TDCJ I can understand why you feel that way, however since I am dealing with TDCJ and so are a large number of PTO and all of TIFA, TXCure and INFO, this matter is extremely important to us and I find it hard to sympathize.

My original response was very open to being understanding to her concerns, however she chose to delay responding and I then looked into the matter further. The other posts by relentless are quite clear that she is attempting to gather recruits for her political agenda and not seeking support. Her husband was in fact out on parole when this incident happened. She waits until he is out on parole to even join this group, if her registration date is correct. I think all this needs to be taken into consideration.

If she wanted support, she would be honest from the beginning about what happened. What I've seen in these posts are not honest explanations or requests for support of her situation. Furthermore, it seems that he was NOT arrested afterall.

I'm sorry, but I do not find it easy to be too sympathetic to someone who is here under the guise of seeking support when their agenda appears to be to incite an insurrection and seek potential recruits for a political agenda.

Respectfully submitted in my opinion,

James B. McCormick

I didn't read what was posted as a plea for help or an expression of fear and frustration but I read it as a political statement. The fear and frustration was added almost as an afterthought to the statement. How can you expect people not to respond in the way they did? I have experienced firsthand the results of this movement's actions and protests. They are regressive, not progressive. They make doing time, an already difficult process, even harder. The fact that they do not feel they have to adhere to the rules, however unfair those rules may be, undermines all those inmates that are doing their best to do their time and leave the situation behind.

Wow, Ralph C....

I need to take lessons from you. You said in a few lines what I said in pages!!!!! LOL :)

You are exactly correct that it was not an expression of "fear and frustration" but very clearly a political statement. One that is dangerous to the process of communication which in turn is critical to reform.

IMHO,

Jim

I thought very carefully before I responded to this subject and the members who have all posted here. First of all, I agree with most of what Joy has said. PTO, in my opinion, is for the support of those of us who have someone incarcerated. We are here as a COMMUNITY to listen and respond in whatever way we can. As Relentess signed her original post, she stated she was frustrated and afraid. There is not one of us here who can not understand or relate to those feelings. And I know that 99% of us would respond to those feelings in the most supportive manner possible.

Now as a COMMUNITY, and what I believe and understand PTO to be about, I cannot support a person's belief who may be working towards the opposite of what our purpose is. Our purpose is to bring awarness to the inconsistencies of a criminal justice system that is not fair across the board. I can not believe, nor understand, one who would wish to abolish the system and not have anything in place to establish order and punish individuals who break the law. My gosh, I could not even imagine what a choatic world that would be...

Jim, I thank you for you time and effort to answer your own questions and post the research you had accomplished. As you had stated, you had known about this event (ie. highly anticipated) and wanted to know more about the issues. Your responses were very articulate.

Relentless, I hope that all is well with you and your husband and that you are enjoying your time together. I hope that someday that you will be able to find a manner or organization that will support changes in the system which will benefit so many inmates. As this is a Community where we can have the feedoms to express our opinions freely, I want to state that I disagree with your opinion defining inmates as "political prisoners"...

QUOTE: I am of the opinion that all prisoners are political since it is the politics of our socio-economics and classist society that keeps our brothers and sisters locked up.

I know that for the most part, prisoners are prisoners because they broke the law and for that there are consequences. We, they, and you may not like it or the consequeces but that is what we have in place and it MUST stay in place. What we can do is work towards CHANGING the system, by letting our voices be heard in a manner that has strength in numbers, strength in examples, strength in law abiding organizations for reforms.

Just to end, I want to again state that if ever you are frustrated, scared, angry or even happy, I will respond with support and and words of encouragement. To what you believe should happen and are actively supporting, I cannot agree nor offer any support or encouragement.

I hope the PTO Community can offer you an insight into other changes, they may be small changes, but my belief is everything that starts small only has room to grow!

Pamela

Pamela,

Thank you so very much for such a beautiful and wonderful post. Your underlying premise of support for the person is truly what is most important here and I totally agree.

I hold no malice of any kind toward Relentless or her husband personally and would be more than happy to provide whatever moral support would be required. However, I can not and will not support the political agenda that is being forwarded nor support or encourage such an agenda.

Respectfully and in my opinion,

James B. McCormick
jbmccormick@yahoo.com

WOW!! There's just so much here to sort through. I understand where Joy is coming from because this is a place where we all need to be able to vent our frustrations. However, we also need to respect each other and not mislead anyone into making statements or taking action on situations without full knowledge of the incident. While I feel for relentless and her husbands plight, I would have demanded the details of what happened before saying too much. Like my parents (and I'm sure most of your parents) used to say, "Just because your friends do it, doesn't mean you have to. Would you jump off a bridge after them?" Just because one person is going in a direction and we love and care for all of our sisters and brothers here at PTO, we have to be able to sort out the venting from the call to action. Relentless was clearly asking for our comments and looking for a show of hands without giving us all the facts.

Jim, I applaud you for taking the extra time and energy to dig deeper into this for us. You appear to be very intelligent and knowledgeable about the groups - TDJC, TIFA, TxCure and INFO. I also think your responses were tactful and while providing what you were able to find out, you did not trash relentless. Being from California, and not knowing anything about these groups or their efforts, it would have been very easy for me to get sucked in. I can be pretty gullable sometimes, as I'm sure many are.

So anyway, relentless, my heart crys for you. I know that in your heart you and your husband want to do things for the betterment of all, but you have to realize that not everyone will "follow you to jump off of this particlular bridge." We all want change in the system and are working to get changes implemented, just not in the same ways. We have to get at it through our elected officials and by voting for the initiatives that will change the current laws. We have to vote in people who are not willing to let "politics as usual" continue as the order of the day. We have to be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

Most of all, as God's Word commands, we need to love one another, including our enemies. When we pray for those who do us wrong and ask God to bless them, He will take care of everything, in His timing. That means the prison guards, those who run the prisons, the elected officials making the calls, the executioners, those who treat our loved ones like they are animals. The Word says, "Whatever you do unto the least of My bretheren, you do unto Me." And so I pray, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do."

i agree with joy ~ pto is a place were we should be able to cry and complain and bitch unconditionally. i took relentlesses post as a cry of frustration. there are always a million sides to a story, but i think here, we need to accept people's fears, frustrations, etc. at face value. ac

RELENTLESS, JIM, RALPH AND ALL OF THE OTHERS WHO HAVE POSTED HERE.


#1) RELENTLESS HAS BEEN THROUGH A VERY HARD TIME... SHE DID NOT HAVE PTO OR ANYONE TO HELP HER THROUGH THE TIME HER HUSBAND SPENT IN PRISON... SHE HAS NOT LEARNED HOW TO FORGIVE. SHE AND HER HUSBAND REMAIN BITTER AND ANGRY AT THE SYSTEM.... WE ALL STILL HAVE THOSE PROBLEMS AT TIMES... I HAVE GONE THOROUGH THIS SAME SITUATION AND BITTERNESS..... AND, YOU ALL KNOW WHAT SHE SAYS IS SO VERY TRUE IN THE LONG RUN..... ALSO, JIM AND LARRY ARE CORRECT TOO. IF WE HAVE THIS TYPE OF RESENTMENT AND WE SHOW THIS AT PUBLIC GATHERINGS, THEN WE HAVE LOST..... WE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO MAKE THE CHANGES WE WANT TO MAKE IN THE JUSTICE SYSTEM AND IN THE DOC....

SO, WHAT DO WE DO. AS PAM SAYS, WE MUST ALL COME TOGETHER AND UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER..... WE MUST BE HERE FOR SUPPORT OF EACH OTHER NO MATTER WHAT OUR OPIONINS ARE....

IT REALLY DOES NOT MATTER THAT SOME OF US ARE BITTER. WE ARE NOT HERE TO JUDGE ANOTHER HUMAN BEING BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT WALKED A MILE IN THEIR MOCASINS.

LEAN ON EACH OTHER..... SUPPORT EACH OTHER....LOVE EACH OTHER... WE HAVE ALL WALKED A LONG, LONG WAY...

MAY GOD BLESS AND KEEP EACH OF YOU

MY LOVE
DONNA

Thank you Donna

Joy

Donna,

You make some very valid points and I appreciate your observation and input. I very much understand the frustrations one can experience with various DOC systems.

I do take exception to something that you did state and I will comment on that in particular. "AND, YOU ALL KNOW WHAT SHE SAYS IS SO VERY TRUE IN THE LONG RUN...". This statement is not correct because I can assure you that I do NOT feel that what she says is true in the long run. Perhaps you have not read her posts or her other posts. I perceive that most members of this group also do not agree with her views or that what she says is "so very true in the long run".

That statment means that you agree with her premise that anarchy is the only way to go and complete abolishment of the penal system in its entirety is necessary and no reform is possible. This is her underlying and motivating premise. Compare this original post with her response later and then include her other posts in context and you will find this is the motivating factor.

I agree with everything else you said as i understand what you are saying.

I agree with supporting peple in their frustrations, however I will not support persons whose purpose is to disrupt or destroy the progresses that are being made in reform. When their efforts are illegal and disruptive and counter-productive, then I will not unconditionally just say "oh that's ok. I don't mind that you have harmed the communication process."

TDCJ is a horrible entity to try to deal with. There are so many complaints and frustrations associated with TDCJ. It is very easy for people out of state who get phone calls, extended visitations, can send care packages, etc, to look at my responses and assume I am being unreasonable because this other person was "only expressing themselves". This other person was expressing themselves by disrupting an attempt by TDCJ to FINALLY start to open lines of communication in an organized fashion and now she wants our support for her actions. This is not going to happen from me and I suspect that those of us who understand what is at stake and risk losing agree with my position.

Complain all you want. I've spent HOURS of time listening and supporting to people complain and never passed judgment on them or their loved ones for what the did (or did not do) to enter the prison system. However, do not sabbotage an event and then come and ask for support for those actions!

I stand by my posts and my position as they were submitted.

Respectfully,

Jim

For those who are unfamiliar with what this event was....


Texas Department of Criminal Justice



Public Awareness-Corrections Today
a Free Conference Presented by the

Texas Department of Criminal Justice

Saturday, August 24, 2002
Sam Houston State University Criminal Justice Center
Huntsville, Texas

Registration is Closed

Due to the enormous response, we are unable to accommodate additional participants.
THE CONFERENCE IS FULL. There will be no registration available at the door. Registered participants will receive their packets, complete with a schedule of assigned session times and room numbers, the morning of the conference.

PUBLIC AWARENESS - CORRECTIONS TODAY (PACT), a free public informational conference presented by the Texas Department of Criminal Justice, is scheduled for Saturday August 24, 2002 from 9:00 a.m. until 4:30 p.m. with a 1 hour and 15 minute lunch break. TDCJ will not be furnishing lunch for participants. The PACT conference will be held at the Sam Houston State University Criminal Justice Center in Huntsville, and is coordinated by the TDCJ Ombudsman Program. The conference will benefit anyone interested in learning more about the post-conviction criminal justice system, including: offenders' family members; criminal justice students; the general public; community leaders; jail and prison ministries; and criminal justice volunteers and advocates.
Feature presentations will be provided by TDCJ: Health Services Division; Offender Grievance Program/Office of the Inspector General; Parole Division ; Bureau of Classification; Windham School District; and Offender Disciplinary Office.

The Conference will open with a General Session led by TDCJ Executive Director Gary Johnson, and guest speakers Texas Board of Criminal Justice Chairman A.M. Stringfellow and Texas Board of Pardons and Paroles Chairman Gerald Garrett. Participants may then attend four sessions of their choosing. The conference will conclude with a panel discussion between conference participants and top TDCJ administrators. In addition, resource tables located in the exhibit room will be maintained by Agency staff to provide brochures and helpful information.

Please visit www.huntsvilletexas.com for additional information about Huntsville, such as lodging, restaurants and other points of interest, as well as a map of the area. Please share this information with others that might be interested in learning more about TDCJ and its operations.

Make your PACT with TDCJ!


Updated: 08/02/2002

I do not believe it was "judging" to list the facts that someone else failed to mentioned.

I do not believe it is "judging" to disagree with another on what they believe and to explain why they disagree.

Untruths,misconceptions need to be discussed. It may be conforting to the person that is petting a live rat and agree with her "yes...yes...yes... it is such a cute kitten". To tell this person the truth might upset her but I think the "truth" would be better to know. I believe it is harmful to cuddle half truths, half knowledge. No one meant no harm in producing more information.

jb: i think ALL states have a doc that remains a tough nut to crack. i know texas' is particularly bad, but trust me, the rest of us are out here struggling, too! ;)

April,

I sure hope you don't think I was suggesting in any way, shape or form that I feel that other states are "easy" to deal with! At no time did I many any such statement. Nor was any such statement or view implied.

I have HEARD that Texas is the worst, but I have never subscribed to that view because I have learned that most things are relative.

I know for a fact that EVERYBODY with ANYBODY in prison is struggling. Regardless if they are in a minimum security camp with a LOT of freedoms or in the worst form of maximum security. At no time have I expressed that I feel one is "not bad" because they are all bad situations.

I also have learned that sometimes those who are in prison, while accepting responsibilty for what this DID do, often accept responsibility for what they did NOT do as well. This further complicates the challenge of dealing with the personal aspect of those who are in prison.

The systems as a whole all have their own general and even specific challenges and problems to deal with.

I am not "comparing" systems or challenges. I have always believed that 15 degree weather is cold and is NOT warm, just because 60 below is colder. Both will kill you very nicely. Just because one may be objectively worse, it doesn't mean that the other is not bad when it stands alone.

Respectfully,

Jim

I'm with you JB! She asked for our comments and she got them. Just because they don't agree with hers doesn't mean she can't post whatever she wants. Doesn't mean we don't respect her right to her opinion. Doesn't mean we don't sympathize/empathize with her pain and her cause. She can vent all she wants and there is no judgement, only disagreement. It just means when she asks for others opinions, she has to be ready to receive them.

Whenever any of us post a question or concern, looking for advice, I'm sure we are not always happy with what we are told. All of the women who post about their boyfriends or husbands who are abusive to them or treat them bad. We all generally tell them to say "Asta la vista baby!!", yet I'm sure that most don't want to leave in their heart and are looking for that one or two persons who will tell them to "stand by your man."

Love the rat thing Torrey!! I used to live in Buffalo, NY right across from a junkyard and those rats we would see running across the road at night in the summer time.........biggest cats I ever saw......LOL That's one of the reasons I still have and love cats to this day.....keeps the mice and RATS away, even the human kind.......LOL!!

"We learn the most from those we dislike."
When we are around only those with similar thoughts and beliefs it is difficult to be challenged to hear new things and learn and grow. When an opinion comes from someone we don't like it usually will prodd you into a reactions.

"Keep your friends close but your enemies closer" When the enemy is TDOC it would be wise to hear what they are doing If you have the intelligent information of what they are doing you have the power to challenge it. My advise go to a TDCJ PACT meeting and follow Joy's advise to " listen".

Menolly walks in with a box of kleenex and "Robert's Rules of Order"... shakes head... thanks the gods she wasn't here all weekend... tosses both book and tissues in air and walks out... thinking "I'm not saying nuttin' 'til I STUDY this post."

Anyone know any Latin?

Exeunt! Pax vobiscum!

Menolly

I hope there's enought information exchanged that a point is reached of, "agreeing to disagree", in given areas and many more areas that can be agreed with and comfort is found in the doing.

lol @ jb....must be the "tone" of this thread, hon. i didn't mean to insinuate in anyway that other states are easy ~ just making a comment that while it's hard everywhere, i think texas is one of the toughest. *hugs* ac :D

At Least Texas has a meeting of that type... No other State I know of even has one.... And you know, If we did have one, I am not real sure how I would represent myself..... Because I too feel anger at the System.... Consistently..... In my opinion it stinks... All over Not Just in Texas...

This is just my opinion and I am stateing it.... I am sorry if you feel anger at me for doing that..... But, you know what, I have a right to that opinion.... and If you don't agree, so be it..... If we cannot state our opinons then maybe we really do need to get rid of the first amendment... I have heard they are trying to do that because it causes great controversy....

Oh Well,,,,,, Maybe we all need to take a look at reality..

Donna

good point @ donna....you're right, i've never heard of another state holding that type of meeting. it's sad, the more i learn, the more i really fear for the "justice" systems and "correctional" systems across this country!!! they are all in a mess and people are suffering! :(

Ya April and Donna, and infighting amongst those you would think would be fighting together sure doesn't help.

Donna, I'm not sure where the idea that our opinions and ideas are not valued and there is anger towards those that do express it. From what I read the only problem was the original post that failed to do just that. It was a request from some others for more correct information to justify the action and reaction from the Pact members. With a request to do just that "Speak your opinions for yourself " In my opinion and understanding the Pact was unfairly accused of doing something that really didn't happen. They were falsely accused. The point was missed when this accusation was carefully and truthfully explained and denied.

I didn't see a problem with support listening or encourgement.
Just a hasting of facts and information. Freedom of speech is very important. Protest are very important and our right. There are laws that protect us and allow us to protest. Those that had issues could have used the tools of protest allowed by law to get thier questions out to the people the legal way.

Laws also protect all of us to have meetings with out disruptions from those that oppose.

TORREY

IF WHAT YOU HAVE POSTED IS TRUE, THEN YOU HAVE HEARD MY OPINION... OUR JUSTCIE SYSTEM STINKS NOT MATTER WHAT STATE IT IS IN....

I THINK MAYBE THIS IS NOT THE SITE FOR ME.... I BELIEVE IN FACT ALSO.... YOU PEOPLE NEED TO LEARN HOW TO RELATE TO OTHERS.... YOU ARE THE PERSONS WHO ARE ACTIVISTS.... YOUR TYPE IS CAUSING MOST OF THE PROBLEM

AS OF THIS HOUR... THIS DAY... THIS WEEK IN 2002 I WILL NOT POST EVER AGAIN ON PTO..... I WILL BE WATCHING THO, JUST SO I CAN SEE WHAT TYPE PEOPLE WE HAVE IN THIS WORLD, WHEN YOU CAN CONDEMN ANYONE FOR STATING WHAT THEY BELIEVE..

SINCERELY
DONNA F. DAY

I agree our justice system stinks.
I think this is relating. Its ok to protest, it's ok to state facts, It's not ok to spread half truths when the other half is available.
I'm causing problems because I want to know everything? The entire story?
I agree we should protest and express our opinions.
We should also educate ourselves and not prevent others from expressing opinions and educational informaton.
I'm real sorry but I don't know where anyone was condemned. Please tell me? Exactly, because I truly don't understand what your so upset about and I will apologize.

OH DONNA: (((((((((( HUGE HUGS))))))))))

I TOO APOLOGIZE WITH ALL MY HEART AND SOUL if my comment(s) above are contributing to your upset! Also my comments in "moderator mode" if that is also part of it!

I've been away for a few days, and frankly this whole discussion leaves me dumbfounded! All I could think of when I first saw this, was "Oh My God! What the heck is going on here?????"

I should have followed my first intention, and said absolutely nothing! until I read it thoroughly, and fully understood what everyone was arguing about!!!!

PLEASE everyone understand that the prison system HURTS US ALL in very deep ways. But HOW THAT hurt GETS EXPRESSED is as individual as we are!

The space that must be given, is for those individual reactions, by individuals!

(And now I have probably just put my foot in it again, right?)

OK, I'm taking some time to regroup here and calm down. Anyone care to join me?

ALL MY LOVE TO ALL, and ESPECIALLY YOU, DONNA!!!

Menolly

What an interesting turn that this thread has gone. I'm quite surprised, especially seeing some of the reactions by "senior" members and the attitude portrayed.

So, Donna, let me get this right. If a person willfully chooses to break the law and cause potential damage to a program that is in its FIRST attempt and I do not agree with this action, then I'm an asshole. But, it is perfectly ok for a person who is involved with a group whose mission appears to have been to sabotage the proceedings and I should just say, "oh, that's ok, you are the real victim here, the hell with all the other families there who could have been damaged by your actions, they just don't understand."

You say, "At Least Texas has a meeting of that type... No other State I know of even has one....". Wow, so since you don't have one, what do you care if ours never happens again because of the actions by a domestic terrorist group of so called Anarchists? This was NOT a meeting. It was a conference.

You are the one who made this personal, Donna, not me. You want to leave or whatever, that is your choice. You don't like others opinions and you don't care about the truth, that is your choice. If you believe, like relentless, that we should just close down all prisons and let all the "political prisoners" out, then I believe they are looking for members.

This is a SUPPORT network, or so I thought. That means we seek to support the families and friends of those who are in prison as well as those who are in prison. Not pass judgment on them. However, nowhere is it reasonable to suggest that means I should support a person who is conspiring or actually committing NEW CRIMES! This is EXACTLY what you are suggesting here and I will not do that.

Donna, you post with a lot of passion, as you are shouting the entire time (shouting on Internet communications is demonstrated by using all capital letters). Passion can be good, but can also be misguided.

It is extremely hypocritical for you to denounce those of us who disagree with the original poster and take the time to explain exactly why we disagree and make that information public, and at the same time say we have to accept their opinion that commission of current and new crimes are perfectly acceptable.


Anger at the system for injustice? I sure hope you don't think you are alone here. You think I am not angry at various aspects or individuals within the so-called justice system? However, we are not talking about that. If you followed this post, you would know that it was dealing with a specific event that even you acknowledge is unique and I believe this was the first ever of a POSSIBLE annual event. Maybe because your state doesn't offer this type of conference you don't care what happens elsewhere and that may explain your attitude. However, such conferences are important. They serve to inform the people and groups who attend about policies and potential policy changes. They MAY even allow for some questions from the attendees, as they did in fact do in this case. It is NOT a forum to express anger by demonstrating or causing a disruption.

There is a time and place for everything. A conference set up for the purpose of informing attendees about policies is NOT a forum for arguing about those policies. It was NOT a public hearing or policy meeting, it was a conference. There is a huge difference.

I have not been angry at you for expressing what opinion you expressed here except when you ahve decided that it is NOT ok for me to express my opinion which I qualified, but that I have to accept a self-proclaimed anarchists view and support her "call to action". A person who did not sign her email (as was suggested) "frustrated and confused" because if one goes and looks at that post, they will find it also was qualified as "frustrated WITH REFORMIST, and scared" [emphasis mine]. This was a directed comment and not an expression of personal general frustration. This person has also declared elsewhere within PTO their agenda as being ANTI-prison reform. Her political agenda is NOT reform at all, but rather ABOLISHMENT of the entire penal system and immediate and unconditional release of all those in prison because according to her, ALL those in prison are "political prisoners".

Donna, you have taken sides. You are entitled to side with this person and her group if that is what you choose. You mention the First Amendment. I agree with you about that First Amendment, but does that NOT apply to me? According to your post, it would appear it does not. I believe in the Constitution and especiall the Bill of Rights..... ALL of them. Relentless does not. An anarchist doesn't believe in any laws. Something to think about.


Torrey, again you express yourself with great efficiency and clarity. I agree with your post entirely. Not because it appears to side with my view, because I have no doubt that there are issues you do not agree with, and I respect that. It is based on your post as it stands. Thank you for your clear expression of opinion.

Menolly, I am SO sorry you had to come in at the tail end and see what this became. There was no attempt to "in fight". I have no idea why certain persons chose to accuse some of us who disagreed in principle to the actions of a person who posted here as "the enemy" when if they considered the facts and motivations of both sides of the issue, they may feel differently. I have no doubt, if it could affect their ability to communicate with the DOC system, they would perhaps be even more passionate than I have been.

April, you have such a wonderful disposition and ability to see positives where they are not always visible. You have quite a gift. Your input was greatly appreciated, even when you appeared to disagree with my approach and position. I am not afraid of controversy.


Menolly, again. Your last post really is so well stated. I again apologize for you walking in at the end of what became a passionate subject. To be completely honest, I never expected to see any responses at all. There was the original post. I was deeply concerned about the subject matter because it will directly affect me and my fiance in prison IN TEXAS. So, I asked for more information and also followed up with the named organization in the original post for more information. I posted that reply EXACTLY as I received it with NO input or censorship of any kind. I expected only to see additional information from relentless at most but that didn't happen until later and still didn't provide the type of information I expected to see. You mention, "PLEASE everyone understand that the prison system HURTS US ALL in very deep ways. But HOW THAT hurt GETS EXPRESSED is as individual as we are!" and I agree with that with a qualifier. If HOW a person expresses that feeling of dispair will affect others or even potentially affect others in a negative way, thereby causing even more pain, such an action is NOT appropriate and must be controlled by that person or others may be required to control them.


I will provide whatever support I can for anybody here and have spent many many hours in private chat and on the phone/Internet doing research for some members here and enjoy being able to help. I don't CARE why there loved one is in prison. That is not important at this stage. If they believe it is wrongful, I will try to help get Habeas Corpus information or whatever I can help them get. Some just needed someone to vent with and I spent time in the chat room making myself available. Why? Because, believe it or not, I care.

I see that some of the members here may feel I am unreasonable. They are entitled to that opinion. For some reason Donna has decided that she no longer feels this is the appropriate site for her. That decision is unfortunate and I don't see why she would feel that way.

One thing I stand on is my principles. I have not and will not lie to someone. If someone asks me a question, I will either answer it honestly or will choose to not answer the question. Do not ask me something if the purpose is only for some warm fuzzy for something we all know is wrong. This does NOT mean that I will sit here and pass judgment.

This is my most reactionary post on this thread yet. I'm extremely pissed off over some of the accusations that have been made and the hypocricy. I stand by every post I've made here in their entirety.

Respectfully submitted in my opinion,

Jim

JB, I was hoping you'd stay calm...

By the way, I was once at a website where someone got very angry about someone using ALLCAPS, and we all found out later the person was LEGALLY BLIND! All Caps and a large magnifying glass was the only way they could read anything. I've never forgotten that lesson about misapplying rules as if everyone benefitted equally.

Do you know anything about Donna's health?

I don't ask to be antagonistic, (even if it sounds so). I'm just focussing on this one tiny point as a way to make a point that sometimes...

I am so glad to be a Canadian!!

I think it is a very healthy attitude we have here. Everyone has opinions. We can read them and decide not to post a respone or we can state how we feel. Being incarcerated is a very emotional subject for us all no matter where we live. We are all a part of the PTO family for that reason.

We may not agree with each other, but we share our opinions and give our support to whoever needs it.

Sounds like a family to me!!!!

DSD

:fb:

The winds and waves are always on the side of the ablest navigators.

Your humble opinion is quite self centered. I thank you for your judgement however, anarchism is indeed the belief that we as a civilization do not need government- because government is always oppressive and therefore wrong. I do not ever mean to represent you, i only represent the prisoners that i write since they have had their voice stolen. I certainly agree that many of the folx in prison that i write to have broken the law. It is my feeling that the laws themselves are unjust. Is it more of a crime for a government not to provide people with a way to make a living, or provide medical treatment when they are addicted to drugs or to sell drugs in order to feed your family? When will y'all see that when over half of the people in prison are for non aggravated "crimes" that something is very wrong with our system of "justice".
The november coalition has been working for over twenty years with drug war prisoners. Is it more of a crime to use marijuana medicinally or to lock someone up and take them away from their family. You see although you may have a twisted idea of what anarchy is, to me and the other millions in the world that believe in it as a theory and a way of life- anarchy does not mean that you live without morals. We all know the difference between right and wrong in our minds and hearts, we do not need a government to tell us. Good folks don't need laws, and bad folks will always break them. Because you live without laws does not mean there would be chaos- I know it is probably a bit of an evolved idea for you that we really could live without government- and i understand that the idea shakes the foundations of your tried and untrue beliefs on crime and punishment. The 13th amendment in this country makes slavery legal- is this acceptable for civilized people?- I never once said let all the prisoners free... I merely suggested that if this system were not so cruel perhaps the people living in it would not be. The idea of anarchism can replace all the governments in the world with the idea that it is always wrong to oppress or control others. Capitalism is at the heart of this oppression.
If you wish to slam my beliefs, perhaps you should understand them first. Also, when you go to look up the definition of a political ideology may i suggest you use an encyclopedia so that you can truly be informed. Anarchism is based on ideas of mutual aid and individuality not selfishness as you propose. The defense of the tdcj's selfishness and refusal to dialogue is a horrendous slap in the face to the ideas of liberty and justice for all. I believe in a free and just society where each is according to their need and their ability. The forefathers of this country have written beautiful documents, which have been trampled. Tdcj has exemplified that there is no democracy. Thomas Jefferson himself beleived that we need a revolution every 25 years to keep those in power from abusing it. Well, we are long overdue. Is there some reason you have totally forgotten to mention that there were others in the audience who were as frustrated as we were with the entire presentation? What is absurd, my friend, is that you call yourself an American and refuse defend a democratic forum. The abolition of prisons is a higher calling for a truly just and compassionate society. You cannot rehabilitate people by sticking them in a cell.
You say that my husband was shouting from the back of the room but you were not there and do not even attempt to apologize for this blatant lie. You refuse to admit that the non-existent rebuttle period for the topics raised at the conference is in direct opposition to the ideas of democracy. If you had done your homework, you would know that it was not a private citizen who arrested him but an officer of the law- who detained him for an unarrestable charge without legal counsel. I am thankful that you along with the evil pigs of tdcj have shown their true colors. I pay the consequences daily as i watch people die in prison, be tortured beyond what any son would tell his mother, be beaten, raped and kicked. And until we are all free none of us are truly free. And if it takes my life in order to come close to acheiving a more compassionate world. it would be a small price to pay.I truly hope that you can redeem yourself and refuse to continue to turn a blind eye to the injustice system you are a part of.
Why apologize for tdcj?
in eternal struggle and solidarity,
relentless
P.S. my warmest thanks go out to joy for considering my frustrations with this whole incident- even people from txcure realized how unfair the conferece was and a warm thanks goes out to them as well- you know who you are

My, My, you are relentless!!

Quote: "I am thankful that you along with the evil pigs of tdcj have shown their true colors."

This statement is an embarrasement to PTO. When you stoop so low as to name calling, just because someone is trying to provide additional information. Just because they do not agree with your approach. Just because they too have the right to freedom of speech. No one has slammed your beliefs, they just don't happen to be ours.

Another quote: I truly hope that you can redeem yourself and refuse to continue to turn a blind eye to the injustice system you are a part of.

To say that JB is part of the injustice system is truely hateful. Your harshness, rudeness, anger, bitterness, disdain for the system and wanton disregard for anyone else's opinions but your own are not democratic at all. You leave no room for anyone else's thoughts or comments, which in itself articulates a dictatorship. I say these things in love, because I truely don't believe you see it as wrong. You say that you pay the consequences daily, but think that no one else here feels the pain! You are dead wrong!! We all feel the pain of our loved ones who are incarcerated, day and night. You are not in this thing alone.

O.K., I'll say it again!

You asked for our comments and you got them. Just because they don't agree with yours doesn't mean you can't post whatever you want. Doesn't mean we don't respect your right to your opinion. Doesn't mean we don't sympathize/empathize with your pain and your cause. You can vent all you want and there is no judgement, only disagreement. It just means when you ask for others opinions, you have to be ready to receive them, whether they are in agreement or not.

I won't stop posting to PTO because I love all of the people I have met here and I have felt nothing but love and support. I will however stop responding to anything you post unless it is posted in a civil, non-aggressive manner.

I wouldn't say another word if I were you JB. You do not have to defend yourself any longer. The "true colors" have been exhibited in this last post from relentless. I know I don't want to hear anymore. For you to get angry is only falling into the hands of the enemy. He's just having a good old time watching all of this chaos going on here.

I will really keep you in my prayers relentless, because I know that God can open eyes to see and ears to hear. Only He can help you with the anger and bitterness in your heart. There is a tone of "hate" in your post, and it's towards JB. Only God can remove the hate from your heart as well. I am deeply concerned for you and will ask God daily to deliver you from the bondages that keep you so angry. Anger will only eat you up inside. We are all disheartened by the system and what we have to go through, but we genuinely care for and support one another, without all of this ugliness!!

Oh Heavenly Father, we love You with all of our hearts. Help us to love each other unconditionally, as You loved us by sending Your only begotten son to the cross for our sins. Help us to see the error of our ways Lord because we need to follow Your example. Let Your light shine through us Lord. Help us to see that our mission on this earth is to follow You. We have only one place to get to and that is Heaven. Oh to spend eternity with You, living in love and peace. Help us to get along and not judge one another Father. Help us to see that we all have been given different paths to follow and that in the end all of our paths should end at the same place....Heaven's gates. Give peace to this thread in this PTO Forum right now Lord. No more back and forth. Only peace in You, knowing that all opinions have been shared and while there is still disagreement, the anger and resentment can be put down. Give peace to relentless, Lord. Bless her and help her get through her pain. Carry her Lord. Give her strength and compassion, not only for those in prison that she fights for, but also for those who come against her. Help her to see that through love you can conquer all things. I ask this all in Jesus Holy Name......AMEN!! AMEN!!

My Name Is Christopher Lee Plummer, And Yes I Am Shouting, Shouting In Hopes That My Words Will Sink Into Your Heads...
I Spent 8 1/2 Years In Tdcj For An Obviously Political 'crime'... Yes I Went Into A House Without The Owners Permission... A Home That Was Owned By Neo Nazis That Had Murdered Two People In Houston Texas, So Yes I Unapoligeticly Broke The Law... Yes I Destroyed Thier Literature And Hate Propaganda... I Was Told By The Sentencing Judge That Had I Been Breaking Into That Home To Steal A Tv I Would Be Let Go With Two Years Probation... This Was Right Before She Sentenced Me To 15 Years In Tdcj... Am I Angry Yes... Hell Yes... I Have Been Involved In Political Activism For 23 Years... Been Heavily Involved... I Have Sacrificed My Life, My Freedoms And My Happiness At Times... So Feel Free To Say That I Some How Deserved To Be Arrested For Asking A Question Of Tdcj... I Dont Care... I Will Stand Behind My Actions All Day Long, Why? Because Unlike You I Have Been Inside Those Gates... Not To Visit But To Live, 4 Years Of My Imprisonment Was Spent In Solitary Confinement... You Try To Tell Me I Should Not Be Angered... You Tell Me After 8.5 Years Of Watching Inmates Getting Thier Brains Beat In By These 'guards' (that You Spent All Of Your Day Applauding) That I Should Have Not Stood Up And Said Something... Fact Is Mister Tifa I Was In The Front Row, And Was Asked What My Question Was... I Asked It In A Comepletly Normal Tone And Was Refused An Answer... Then Arrested By The Oig Officers Present, Who Then Refused Me Access To An Attorney And Numorous Other Violations Of The Law... I Am One Of Those People That You Say That Youy Represent... But You Do So In Word Only... I Have Given My Blood, My Brains And My Life... Stand By The Folks You Most Identify With.. The Ones Who Imprisoned Your Family... The Ones That Encourage The Violence And Rape Culture That Is The Tdcj.

If You Would Like An Open Dialogue With Me Feel Free To Email Me Direct At If Any Of You Are In Need Of An Insiders Point Of View On What Is Going On With Your Loved Ones Please Write Me I Can More Than Likely Give You A Perspective You Will Not Hear, Esp From Groups That Tend To Buy The Systems Lies Hook Line And Heavy Sinker...


In Absolte All Out Struggle,

Chris Plummer

I truly appreciate freedom angels opinions/position, and would hope that she could appreciate mine even if she feels name calling was not in order. I'll have to admit that i agree it was a bit childish but none the less, understandable for someone who was just trashed and misrepresented by jb, who apparently does not represent all families of tx inmates- just the ones he agrees with. This is where he and i differ, because i have a broader veiw of things. If any one is to be accused of being hateful and bitter surely his comments were not nice and more than that not true. So while you are praying for me, perhaps you could throw in a mention for jb. He effectively supported the rights of tdcj to blatantly lie to families and is therefore supporting tdcj. Do you see how an apology for tdcj is a slap in the face to families who attended, believing that their questions would be answered?
Again, you have followed suit to misrepresent my intentions. I am very pleased to hear everyones opinion, and can only hope they stand by them in a pricipled manner. I welcome your opinion, jb's, donna's joy's, dsd's, menolly etc. etc. I welcome them even if they disagree with me. Communication is the basis for free speech and the heart of that is to defend the right of those with whom you disagree. This is the only way to evolve ideas and attempt democracy. This was my entire problem with tdcj's approach.
You are certainly under no obligation to respond to my posts. however it is my right to continue to use this tool as long as i am using it in a principled manner. I am hateful at the system for frustrating our lives. But it is with great love that i write over 20 different prisoners, and help them stay safe, provide them with books, and finances if they have no family etc.
What was aggressive about my post? What was offensive to you? Again you are not obligated to stand behind or reply to your accusations. Sometimes my opinion is angry toward the people that are hurting others and even more so to those who justify it. I have not taken apart jb's politics- not because i couldn't but because this is not the place for that and i have no need to berate or slash someone for their beliefs. I wonder why he feels the need to. I do however feel the need to defend myself not only for the sake of truth and accuracy, but for the sake of the people who have entrusted me with the honor to speak for them from behind the walls. And what they say is that until we confront the judicial system and the tyrranny that keeps them alive, we have all truly lost. So we must continue to confront the rapes, and beatings, i don't care what someone did to go to prison no one deserves that type of cruel and unusual punishment. If we do not confront the system on this we do not deserve the convenience of being American or having 'rights'. And if we do not confront those that apologize for this type of controlled question and answer we are not doing our jobs.
Those who would trade their freedom for security, deserve neither freedom nor security
for all my friends and family locked in cages,
reckless

Congratulations to Mr. and Mrs. Plummer. They have succeeded in doing exactly what they sought out to do. One of the first steps in breaking down a society is to create a rift in organizations that may have differing viewpoints or goals. They have succeeded very well here.

I think I'll have to go along with what B-Ray posted, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I do feel like responding to one statement by Mr. Plummer where he states:

"I DONT CARE... I WILL STAND BEHIND MY ACTIONS ALL DAY LONG, WHY? BECAUSE UNLIKE YOU I HAVE BEEN INSIDE THOSE GATES..."

Mr. Plummer, I don't know how many if any of these other people in this thread are exoffenders but I am. You didn't represent me when I was in and you sure don't represent me now. I went to the penitentiary because I broke the law, same as you. You knew what you were doing was against the law but because you choose not to believe in a society with laws you call yourself a "Political Prisoner". That is an insult to all of the true Political Prisoners in this world.

I'm sure you got the attention you were seeking. You won't get any more of my attention in this particular thread though. I do wish you all the luck in dealing with your rather obvious issues.

Your 15 minutes of fame are up....



Ralph Christensen
rpchristensen@networkwaco.com

Dang! this thread left me with a friggin headache. JB, you sound like a highly intelligent well-educated man, perhaps an attorney or something. But your posts in my opinion lack any compassion. Your words alienate me. Christopher I feel your pain. This is all I wish to say. Thank you.

pain and alienation and hurt and misunderstanding and disagreements...these are all the reasons i came to pto...the emotions that i was feeling had no place in the "real world"...what i have found on these pages: comfort and a sense of belonging and of being understood...i have also been challenged in ways that have helped me to grow...so many have been so helpful...jb, in particular. he has mentioned that he has spent hours online with different folks...well, i think i have probably taken up more of his time than anyone's...he is an articulate and empathetic gentleman on whom we can all depend and learn from...i know that i certainly have...and i also know that there are others of his caliber among us...i don't want to lose any of the pto family over a difference of opinions, whatever they may be. i am so sad to see so much hurt and unhappiness in these pages, but i also realize that such things may be inevitable whenever human beings are involved...i think i am rambling. it has been a long day. and a sad day for me for many reasons.

hugs to all,
emme

emme,
consider yourself hugged. as a wise person, and political prisoner once told me "they will never get us all" i don't know if you understand the significance of this in yer particular situation but basically i feel your pain and the strength that has brought me through the lives and deaths of my friends and family in the prisons is with you. i'm sure that is of little cocelation to you now but believe me when i say your strength and courage and support make every day worth living to those who you support in the arms of punishment. thank you for sharing!!
always,
relentless
p.s. to ralph- agent provacateur is not my style nor intent- just sharing my feelings and frustrations with others who may understand

Hi Relentless,
In a way I can understand what you are saying (although I dont entirely agree). I too have had alot taken from me and as many people know on here I dont always agree with what everyone else thinks, but you have something in common with alot of them you have had a loved one who has been in jail. It seems to me you all agree on the same thing the system doesnt work, and you all want it changed just you go different ways about it. When you suffer as you have done it can make you feel angry and with right just realise that people do try to understand and support you just they think you should go a different way about expressing your views.
I cant say you are totally wrong I have had friends in jail but never a close loved one and so I cant say what I would do in your situation, but I always think if you have a view say it, peacefully and respecting not everyone will agree.
Take Care
Caroline

Freedom_Anjel:

AMEN!

i have read and re-read these posts and it has gotten to the point that the "content" has lost the battle to the "tone"--and the once peaceful ground for discussion has become a battlefield.

i am not even going to comment on my "views' about any particular issues that have been brought up in this thread with the exception of the issue of HOW we express our views-

i think all of us know that "how" something is said often is much more powerful that "what" is said- what appears to have happened in this post is exactly that and it has become a war of words-

i will not attempt to speak for everyone on this site but as one of the first members of PTO, i will speak about what PTO means to me--PTO is a place where everyone is welcome to be themselves and express themselves without the fear of criticism or attack. this is true whether it be a universal issue or one of a personal nature. EVERYONE has a right to their opinion, and they also have the right to be respected for it. that, of course, does not mean we all have to agree, in fact we will most certainly even vehemently disagree with many, many views. - but in my mind there are two appropriate choices when we read a post we disagree with-we can respond and present our views in a non-threatening, non-critical, unoffensive manner- or we can just not respond at all. i have used both of these approaches--depending on the situation, and my knowledge and/or feelings about the subject at hand. i do not think it is of benifit to anyone to "wage war" about a subject. i also think it is okay to say " i'm sorry" --that does not mean you retract your opinion, simply that you are sorry you hurt someone's feelings.

people here at PTO are in different "places' ( and i don't mean geographically)--some are strong and resilient, hard-core, with a cast iron sheath--others are struggling, afraid, vulnerable, with open, burning wounds, and many, many of us are somewhere in-between. we have to consider this when we post-
for some people here, PTO is a place to visit, browse, and occasionally post, for others it is a daily stop for rejuvenation,

and for some it is a lifeline--

we are all different people here --different personalities, different pasts, different pain we carry--but we all have at least one thing in common--and that is PTO. it is my hope that we can strive to use that bond of sorts to recognize that despite all of our differences we are all united by at least one small thread.

i think we all want peace, though our perceptions of exactly what that is or how it can be obtained may be different. --
i just want us to have peace HERE, at PTO, a small little part of the world that we actually have control over. we, the members, control the atmosphere here--i hope it can be one where any and all of us feel completely comfortable in sharing our thoughts, our opinions, our fears, our joys, our pain and know that we will receive a respectful acknowledgement of such. in my mind, that's the most important thing.

LOVE AND PEACE

Thank you Sherri. That was very well said and I agree with it. "We can respond and present our views in a non-threatening, non-critical, unoffensive manner-

Joy

I have to agree with Isadora and also w/Sherri. This thread has lost any real potency as a true discussion of views and feelings...
instead "a war of words". I would not wish to alienate anyone from PTO as I know it has become an important support and resource fro me...so I know how I would feel if it someone alienated me from here. Did that make sense? ANyway-what I'm trying to say is that I would hope that this discussion to "lose" any of our valuable members. JB, Relentless, Donna....all of your "very individual"(thanks Menolly) experiences and beliefs are what make PTO a rich place for all of us.
Find a way to squash this and please don't think that this whole place can be so simply defined as siding w/one side or another on this or any topic posted at PTO.

Very well said Gina. Thank you.