Hey Ladies,

I have been writing a DR inmate for a significant period and really felt we had a deep bond, a sincere and close friendship. Recently our dynamic evolved from platonic to flirtatious. We both acknowledged this and mutually confirmed to each other that there may be something special developing between us. He wanted us to become closer yet I was very conflicted about whether to explore it or not as I have never been involved with a man who is incarcerated so I have infinite issues with this which are intensified by him being on DR.

The ultimate fear was obviously the possibility that he may be executed and the unbearable agony of watching my lover die like that. Did I want to allow myself to fall in love with him knowing this could be our tragic fate? The other concerns were naturally the huge limitations, complications and implications which DR imposes upon a relationship. The physical separation. Deprivation of sex was a major issue in this but it went beyond that to missing, actually craving all the little things normal couples take for granted from a walk in the park to falling asleep in his arms. I've never felt so lonely as since I started wanting him but could not have him by my side. The restrictive communication which prevents a candid discussion of his case. Given how anything he says can be recorded then subverted by the prosecution to impair his appeals I have a moral dilemma about whether I truly can stand by him as I really don't know the absolute truth of his conviction from his perspective. This is a vital conversation we cannot risk having. I could hypothetically appraise his case and decide there were numerous mitigating factors to suggest even if was guilty I could forgive and understand him but without being able to discuss everything from him I was still blind and wrestled with my conscience and struggled to find peace of mind. There was the constant pain of knowing his suffering: the inhumane prison conditions and extreme isolation which damages his sanity and destroys a fragment of his soul day by day and the torment of being powerless to intervene and improve it. The infuriatingly slow and financially bias appeals process and the morbid anxiety of hearing the clock ticking on his life while the state counts down and actively premeditates his murder... Enduring this hell and all these sacrifices for a man who I have never even kissed or spent the night with. Wondering if this is all fantasy and if against the overwhelming odds we triumphed against the system then would we even be compatible and make it in the real world where we had to live and be together?

Besides the shadows these uncertainties cast I was also aware of the notorious reputation DR inmates have for playing women. To have to add this into my already insurmountable list of concerns was pushing me over the edge. A relationship with a DR inmate is hugely stressful anyway without this unnecessary burden. I have been a lurker on PTO for 6 months or so and I have seen the sad and bitter tales of so many women who devoted themselves to a man on DR only to discover they were being scammed or cheated on. I have read the posts from women who are conscious that a fellow PTO member is being duped but are torn about whether to get involved or not as by alerting her they might place their guy in danger or she might resent them and suspect they are trying to shit stir or create drama. I have considered the accounts of DR inmates themselves who admit that DR inmates typically do have more than one lady on the go because they are so lonely and desperate to survive. They generally tend to receive more mail than gen pop because they appeal more to potential penpals due to the sympathy their dire predicament engenders or the notoriety that can be achieved via their association with them. DR inmates are at the bottom of the food chain often abandoned by society and their family so they understandably have severe issues with trust and are reluctant to rely on one individual to support them so they maintain numerous relationships to protect themselves from disappointment or simply because they want to get what they can outta everyone because they feel so betrayed themselves. In many instances when the soap opera explodes it is because the DR inmate has been simultaneously seducing several women but in fairness there are also many examples where he was conducting what he perceived to be an innocent friendship yet given the unstable females who are parasitically drawn to DR this could become distorted when said woman imagined the interaction was more significant and then posted her delusions on the net or stalked his girlfriend to seed doubt...

Given this I asked the guy I was considering embarking upon a relationship with to be transparent about the other women he writes to. I explained that I refused to be humiliated or devastated by being contacted by a stranger who informed me she was involved romantically with him. He insisted I was the only person apart from his mom that he corresponded with and reassured me how much he wanted and loved me. I persisted in my questioning and he became irritated and blamed any inconsistencies I exposed on my "jealousy" and "paranoia". Well, I investigated further before giving him my heart and discovered the many lies he had told me. During our contact he has actively sought out and flirted with other females. It has been horrible to learn he wasn't who I thought he was yet I am thankful I had this realisation now before I became more embroiled with him.

I don't dislike him. I have come to recognise that deception and manipulation are sadly what most DR inmates resort to for survival. They are not necessarily malicious and nor does it mean they do not genuinely have affection for you but in that crazy place which distorts the mind and where so many women either use them to serve their own rather twisted needs or don't stick around to fulfil their promise this is the approach which has been established.

Please believe I am not saying every DR Inmate is like this. I am sure that many have been able to love and trust again but I do feel what I have experienced is the rule rather than the exception so long as they are forced to exist in he screwed up, ultra disturbing environment of DR. Personally I will be eternally grateful to the women who had the courage, compassion and integrity to reveal the extent of my guy's duplicity to me and spare me from the heartache I would have sustained had I persisted with him. They confided in me and informed me of what was going on and as much as it stung I really do appreciate it now and you were so brave for telling me what I did not want to hear but needed to listen to.

I would say to all women who are involved with a DR inmate don't believe everything they tell you and/or ignore your instincts and gut feelings. Follow them and not your heart. Regardless how persuasive or convincing his lies are or how much he manipulates you into feeling bad for being suspicious I am sorry to say you are probably justified in your misgivings. These are very damaged men and do not underestimate what they are capable of. It may take years to really build a solid foundation with a guy in that mad situation to get him to the point where he really does trust you and is ready to commit. Also be prepared to deal with the harsh reality that you may not mean anything to him despite his beautiful words and gestures. I believe many men on DR truly do want love and a healthy, honest relationship to brighten their life but whether they are capable of maintaining that while in the brutal and surreal climate of DR is dubious... I haven't decided whether to stay with or leave my baby yet as it is so complex but I wanted to share my journey with you all.

I read your lengthy post several times. It sounds as if you have had communication with more than one DR inmate to have summized all this in one nut shell, the basic mental anatomy of the way DR ALL are. It was sad to hear you classify all DR inmates as calious manipulating beasts (my words from your description). You mention about trust and the fact they (inmates) hold onto many because they are lonely and desperate to survive. You can not take away the fact that is a double edged knife your using; heres why. Pen pals usually do NOT write to just one inmate before they settle on one either, do they?? these men do talk and there is common knowledge of who are inmate stalkers these are woman that flock from prison to prison for a man possibly out of lonelyness and desperation as you call it. Second the pen pal is really the only one that can initiate, control, and steer the relationship. If he wants love and you dont you say "NO" right? Just Like with men on the streets you have to be aware of your presentation to the situation, If you write coming off as needly for attention you will get it he wants attention too remember thats the whole idea. If you come off giving money left and right,well lets be real here would you turn down a 20 spot here and there if you were in prison ? Can't also forget these are MEN, no different than men on the streets. Men in general are notrious for weeding threw women, ALL men love attention from women all of them do. And yes you are right there are women out there that use these men to stroke there twisted Ego's thinking they are corresponding with someone of the same lines as a celebrity. These men can read threw all that, when you have a hidden agenda as a pen pal they know it and yes in that case scenario you very well might find yourself being played. You have to remember they do get alot of mail and read letters from all kinds they too are leary of the situation and who they are dealing with, trust me.

You say all these things but then call him your "baby" so I see that you are still smitten even know you have been informed about the others???? so you may want to look into that before you classify ALL DR and look deeper into yourself. Respect and loyalty is what is important to a inmate, respect yourself and they will respect you, throw yourself to them and they will only appreciate you, but respect is what will bond you, appreciation is a thank you your a good person, they are totally two different things in the prison world. Again, I like your post and it is very honest of what you feel but not accurate as fact.

Hard Candy, you are correct in all what you wrote but these Ladies don´t want to hear it.

In all the years I met women who are talking of "true love" although their Inmate is married/divorced three times. You get to know women who truly believes phrases like "you are my soulmate, my mate for life" etc but you know, that this man is writing to other women the same. And if you then thinking about to tell this women about the other, you get the good advice to shut up, because it could be danergously for you or your man.

And so many women are telling "My man isn´t this way" and this without any doubt, question or investigation. Why? Because they WANT to believe it. I can´t hear it anymore. Let them blind!

Well, maybe not every Inmate is the same, but 99,7%. But I can understand these men. Death row is the hardest I can imagine and before I sit there all alone I would have lots of women either, even romantically.

But I think this isn´t the question. Finally it goes all about death or alive, execution or not. We all know you can´t never compare a death-row relationship with a "real" relationship here in our lives. We know it. We are against the death penalty and therefore we should support the Inmates. All of this drama is selfmade!

We should never forget about that the most important is to fight against this death penalty. This is why we came together.

CDX,

For your information I am no groupie or desperate female. I have only ever written 2 DR inmates and have never been romantically involved with any of them besides this one guy who was so special to me I considered a relationship even though I had major issues with it. I wrote initially because of my job and my objections to the DP, corrupt and financially bias legal system and the inhumane prison conditions. I never sought any attention or notoriety from it and had no intention of our dynamic ever being anything besides platonic. He pursued me.

I am a very strong, assertive and independent woman which is why I would not ignore or tolerate the prospect of being played and was able to see through his manipulations and not doubt myself when I became suspicious. I confronted him on all of it so believe me he knows I am not stupid and that he can't mess with me. I have his respect because I was smart enough to work it out, had the guts to call him on it and the self-respect to stand up to him and say I will not take this.

The reason I refer to him as my baby is because I do deeply care about him. He is at his core a very good man. I am conflicted about how to proceed with him as I realise how complex this area is not because I am weak. Yes he has lied to me about other women but I can recognise it doesn't mean he does not care about me. In DR morality is very complicated and motivations are not as cut and dried as in the world. Lies are told often because they are afraid of losing someone and they tell other women what they want to hear to keep them sweet and avoid having their eggs in one basket because they have been let down so many times in the past. I am trying to understand him and how difficult his position is compared to mine.

I didn't post these comments to imply all DR inmates are players. It is just my realisation of the realities and challenges of establishing a relationship with a guy who has that history and is in that environment. That the games they can play are an obvious consequence and we often underestimate how damaged and dysfunctional they can become in DR. We all want to believe our guy isn't cheating on us or being deceptive but we cannot ignore how DR breeds this behaviour and even if our guy does love us that might not be enough for him to break this pattern.

I wanted to share my experience with other women who may not have considered how complicated, frustrating and potentially heart breaking this can be. It is you CDX who sounds weak and in denial since despite the overwhelming evidence of what guys on DR get up to with women you are not prepared to consider the possibility that your guy may not be all he seems either. I had no reason to question my guy's sincerity, I was not dumb and I did not give him $ or sex letters so his only incentive for writing me was me. My guy had no pen pal ads and repeatedly assured me he was not into that bullshit. I believe he does not want to be but the fact is on DR pen pals mean food/stamps/books/legal fees or respite from the terrible isolation and so it is not surprising they succumb to that temptation nor does it mean they are awful men. They are human beings in a very extreme and bizarre community trying to survive and stay sane. Dishonesty, manipulation and self-preservation are endemic on DR so why should we expect our relationships with a man on DR to be immune from it? All I am suggesting is women need to be more realistic about what they are getting into by becoming emotionally involved with a DR inmate.

People on DR are the same as people on the street, in so much as they are all different and unique. I have PP on DR, and all mine are very different. I an not involved with any on a romantic level, and we get along fine. That said one of my PP did tell me about DR groupies, and the fact they can in fact become quite tiresome and boring. He didn't want a groupie he wanted a friend, and that's my opinion too. Most people who write inmates, DR or gen pop, know about the players in prison, and if they don't they should, for their own sakes. You will find inmates, as with any walk of life, who will try to use people for a purpose, usually money. I know that all of my PP bar one write other people, and I don't have a problem with that at all. When you have a prison friendship/relationship it is important that trust is established as quickly as possible, if at all possible. If you have any doubts or you see any red flags, no matter how small, you need to move to protect yourself, your bank account and your heart.

I know some people go into becoming a PP for a whole host of reasons, and some will do it for a 'relationship'. I am not, nor will I ever condemn anyone who has a DR relationship, as I feel we should all take love from where ever we can get it, I do say that people should go into it with eyes wide wide open though. Any and all relationships with DR inmates can and is painful, emotional, and hard going at times, even if like me, it is just on a friendship level. You MUST accept there is a very high chance your man will die in prison, by execution, illness or old age, as few percentage wise are released.

DR inmates need friends, they need to know there is someone in the free world who thinks about them. I was told by one PP I am his eyes and ears to the world, and IMO that is a huge responsibility, and one I never take lightly.

I would say this, enjoy your friends, be wary, take care of yourself first. I know from my own experience, my PP enrich my life in a way I could never explain, and I wouldn't change a thing!

I had a very very bad experience with someone on DR.. I'm still paying the consequences of my "relationship" and I guess it is something that will never completely heal and it is something that will change and affect my life forever.
I completely understand you and respect what you're saying;
I agree with you when you say that there are some "behaviour" or "behavioural dynamics" that may be common and very similar between those who are incarcerated and are just natural consequences of imprisonment, especially for the DR Units where the guys are confined completely alone and isolated for years and years.
I am sure not everyone is like this, but I also believe that there are certain dynamics that will affect these guys for sure and yes, we often understimate how emotionally damaged they can be and how much their "reality" can be "far" and "different" from ours... When I say "their reality", i mean their way to perceive feelings, emotions, and also their way to discern relationships and human bonds.
I am very sorry for you.. and please, trust me... RUN AWAY as soon as you can...

Hi Daf,

Thanks so much for your post. I completely agree with what you said and you articulated it all much better than me. It is as if they have a very different perception of bonds and relationships which is perhaps as a result of the betrayal they have endured so therefore there is ultimately no absolute loyalty as they cannot comprehend or believe in it. Or perhaps we feel so far away and distant in a world they no longer know that we are not truly real to them.

And yes I have also noticed the distortion in the perception of reality and feelings. I suppose it is because given how they are suffering they might simply be unable to relate to anything beyond that or the pain they can cause others. When confronted it is turned on us with defence mechanisms of lies and manipulations to make it seem as if we have the problem. My guy seems totally unablte to admit to mistakes, apologise or take responsibility and I have heard the same from many other women who had a similar situation.

I want to run away rather than subject myself to more of this anguish. I certainly won't enter into any relationship now but I feel it would be wrong to turn my back on him as a friend because I really don't think he meant to hurt me and he needs someone who will stand by and perservere with him for him to ever realise he can have love, loyalty and devotion.

I started reading this thread a couple of hours ago and it has been bugging me.
I really am so sorry for the bad things both Daf and Hard Candy have and are going through. It's not fair on anyone to go through such a thing.
I agree there are a lot of guys on dr that really are out to get all they can out of the people that write to them.
I do think, however, that there are a few that really arn't like this.
I think it is important not to tar all men on dr with the same brush.

I also had to go through some very painful experiences. It teached me alot about this kind of relationship and I had to learn it in a really heartbreaking lesson.
But it also teached me again about the horrible situation the guys are in and the history they have to carry on their shoulders. Nothing is normal, but everything is so needy, so hungry. We should really be aware of that and life wise when we step in a world like this. But even when we are, we are not even able to imagine what will wait for us.
I know players, on both sides by the way, but I also know very faithful, loving and caring men who did never play games with their friends or their women.
Some prisons seems to make players out of the guys because of the inhuman situation inthere, and these prisons also seems to attrack "death row groupies".
I found my real love in a prison without these groupie tourism and I am thankful for that. I know about all the friendships and penpals my Baby has, they know about me and we try to support each other. Even with my painful experience, I am still faithful and trust my man completely, because there is no love without trust.
And I have forgiven my "ex" because I know about his awful situation, the stress and frustration he is in every day. He is fighting for his life and there was no place for me. Finish.
And although his way of fighting for his life hurt me deeply, I respect it. And I wish him luck.

Hard Candy

Hmmm seems I irritated and ruffled your feathers, didn't mean too, but you put yourself out there. I assume you weren't exspecting a ban wagon of cheerleaders that agree with you when your posting in a forum for "loving a death row inmate" . So relax, you remind me of a pen pal that used to write to my hubby while we were apart. Upset and angry forgetting her part of the relationship. That is the side of the pen pal relationship that needs to be exposed. It just seems when a realtionship ends you all go through this "babe of the woods" innocent trip and then he played you. Pen pals play too, some lead different lives then the ones they tell the inmate, some of them even live with other men. One of my hubby's ex- pen pals claimed she was a novelist writting novels and had books published and all that jazz, turned out she was a 45 yr old fart in the breeze living with her mother who was dealing with mental illness and instability.

But, all of a sudden he is the damaged good, the bottom of the chain, a person not capable of bonding, the liar. But when you were happy and in love he was stable enough to be loved, you understood his crime stood by his side, but when its over you (pen pals) publically attack calling him all kinds of low life's and such but then countinue to get involved with other DR men.

I know of a ADP chick that claims that she was taken and used went to great lengths to prove it and swore never to get involved again but is now involved with yet another DR inmate in Indiana. And she posts as a regular on PTO checking up on and stalking her previous pen pal that "supposibly" destroyed her life. So please, I read your post and it sounds that you are the one in denial. You are hurt and realize you were not as sharp as you thought you were going into to this, so now its time to condem him for deceiving you. I dont get it, I am sorry, I just dont and you dont have to get rude about it, I wasn't being rude or attacking you.

You posted a derogitory post in a area meant for "loving a DR inmate" not a forum for " DR inmates are Damaged". I am a wife that has been involved with DR (my husband for 9 years) I know all to well the real deal on DR and pen pals. I know who they respect and love and who they dont and why. They for the most part do love there pen pals deeply but they know that most all want exclusive rights to them, they do fall in love with your kindness if your good people, they really do. But you all get clingy and selfish wanting him to yourself. There in a cell 24/7 there biggest joy is to have love come threw the mail slot under there door.

You are definatley not savvy enough to the prison world or the inmate mind to even think to embark on a realtionship with ANY inmate for that matter, especially DR. "DAF" says run, yes, I think that is a wise choice for you. DR men ARE different, that is true, they have had more time to self reform, of course depending on the case. Most men on DR are not good dudes thats why they are there, research there history before you write, if they went on a shooting spree in a store of people you really can't exspect much compasion on the other end of the pen can you?

As far as the ADP "groupies" well I always thought our donations to them were for helping them assist inmates with books and legal support, not for flights to the USA funding there obsessions and there marriages to DR men. This is a strong issue with Long term wives and girlfriends who really know whats what in the prison realtionship world. I speak on behalf of the few wives that "I know" who have been doing this for years and years that know better and know the truth.

Again I am not attacking anyone, but you are misguided, Iam sure that your pen pal would be real hurt to read your posts and to read all the things you really feel about him and how damaged he is. Iam sure he will feel played as well, especially now that you know that there is others and you still haven't bailed on him to his face, but instead bail on him in public (so to speak) like this.

CDX,

It is increasingly clear to me from your posts that you have issues with pan pals to DR inmates in general and are projecting them on to my statements.

I never lied to the guy I correspond with and I have told him every word directly that I have written on here. He knows exactly how I feel and what I think about his behaviour and why. If you had bothered to actually read my posts you would see that I have not attacked all DR inmates, I repeatedly said this was my experience and not about all DR inmates. Despite what has happened I also said I was trying to find understanding for his position and never condemned his character. I said he is a very good man and this is a complex territory with a tricky morality and I could see it from his perspective. I am not blaming him.

Of course I researched his case before writing to him! And I am more than savvy to how the prison world works hence why I didn't get played and I exposed what was going on before getting in any deeper.

Basically I think you obviously are still hung up about the pen pal your husband got involved with when you were apart. If so then I completely understand that and the frustrations as a wife you might have in general with pen pals. But write your own post on that instead of using me as a punch bag.

You posted a derogitory post in a area meant for "loving a DR inmate" not a forum for " DR inmates are Damaged".


You couldn't have said it better.

Duh, I'm sorry Smilehun I thought this was an honest forum for discussing the trials and tribulations of loving a DR inmate not a fan club for them! Why dont cha jump on everyone else who ever started a thread about how DR inmates can sometimes be assholes and it's not always a bed of roses to love them!

There are many trials and tribulations with relationships with DR inmates, and we all can use this forum to ask advice and vent, as well as pass on the great many positives. The thing is, PTO is a support site, so we have to remember that wives, girlfriends, moms etc come here. I do understand your need to warn others, but I think people are upset as it did appear you were calling all DR inmates, when obviously no one can generalise like that.

JJS,
I appreciate you are being diplomatic. I repeat again I did not say what I experienced applies to all DR inmates. But I'm sorry it is a very common phenomonon that does seem to apply to a vast amount of them and they admit it themselves. To be in denial of what goes down is futile.

Hard Candy

Your attack on smilehun is unwarranted. This is a forum of “loving” a death row inmate, and your generalization offends anyone that does, you have to understand that. And to correct you on something you in your last paragraph of your original post DID generalize ALL DR inmates. As far as my position I do not hold anything against pen pals you are wrong, my gripe is with the misguided ones. I have great respect for the legit ADP pens that help and support, that truly have a mission of being a lifelong friend. They know where to draw the lines with inmates because they “going in to the situation” establish that from the gate and it is respected. I too read all the unfortunate posts of women getting played and it’s sad, but I promise you if DR could have internet to tell there side of some of these stories they might take a different turn and sound a lot different. They would be able to tell about the pens that lied and played too, ok. That’s all I am taking a stand on. I felt it was about time to expose some of the other side, I have seen my hubby’s friends get played too by pen pals and that might be more of the reason inmates are leery of being honest and exclusive from the start. Heck, we know of one pen that stayed by one guy’s side and held his hand for years hoping about being together, talk of marriage and now that he is getting out soon, she dropped him and said she couldn’t walk in the streets with a man who once held a DR label or carry his name for that reason. Hmmmm, now she’s ashamed of him all of a sudden, unbelievable. So lesson here is don’t assume all are this way and don’t assume that its because they are damaged, assume they have lived a life of pain and deceit and are good readers of character they too do not want to find themselves “in love” with someone that will take there hearts and abandoned them. And like I said pens have the control not the inmate, you initiate the communication, you direct the relationship, and you can end the relationship. Most pens know they have that control so it disturbs there balance when the inmate decides otherwise and certain pens get mad and start the “he played me game”. That’s the part I am defending here, nothing else. If he wants love and you don’t you say “no” it’s that simple. If you keep stressing to him that he needs to be exclusive and come clean about others that mean a lot to him before you can love him, well just say goodbye because he’s going to cut you lose anyway.

And P.s. you don’t need to curse at anyone; you know you are really showing YOURSELF by getting so hostile. Does he know this side of you? Maybe that’s why he is open to others, relax.

Ok people time for a reminder. This poster came here to post about HER story and HER adventures. I understnd not all will agree with HER feelings, however, RESPECT is still the key ;) If you can't post kindly, then please don't post at all.

Here's a link to PTO's plicies if there's any question on how to post here ;) I suggest everyone reads BEFORE posting. All posts that are inciting, bashing or disrespectful will be removed. Let's not jeopardize our posting privalages :)

PTO Policies and Rules (http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23755)

Thank you,
PTO Moderator

C,

You're damn right he's seen my hostile side after all this stuff came out and if he can't empathise with why I am so angry at his lies and attempts at manipulation then he is welcome to be open to others. Good luck to them!

I am upset because a man whom I cared very deeply about and was nothing but a very loyal and dedicated friend to deceived and hurt me. Is that so difficult for you to comprehend? I never lied to him, judged him or made any false promises to him. When I heard the stories about guys on DR always playing women I defended him and said he wasn't like that and had too much integrity and compassion. And I still believe at his core he does. My point was that the environment of DR can damage and distort their perception. Even decent guys who mean well can be contaminated by it. I completely agree with you that a large part of this is down to pen pals who do not have altruistic intentions and play games with them. And that is what I was trying to say that often you can inherit those issues when you become emotionally involved with a man on DR. They may well be genuine in their affection for you but given what has happened in the past they might be very cynical and reluctant to trust so therefore they keep other women on the boil out of that fear of abandonment. Or because of the sheer loneliness, boredom or financial pressure of their dire predicament. So they can lie and manipulate to avoid losing you and the other women they may have as back up plans or necessary support systems.

It is exactly because I sympathise with how many DR inmates have been screwed over by pen pals that I am trying to understand and forgive my guy by recognising he did not intend to hurt me. He is trying to survive in a crazy environment and is very cautious of giving himself to me because of how he has been let down before. He wasn't just trying to con me or mess with my head.

My point in this entire post was simply that women need to be realistic to the complications of DR they could encounter when they become close and give their heart to a DR inmate. Even if he wants to be with you he may struggle to deliver on that commitment as we tend to define it. The rules and morality are very different from their side of the wall. That is all I was saying and did not want to offend you so I apologise if I did but I felt you attacked me and assumed I was some kind of deranged groupie and should blame myself for getting burnt by a man I simply cared about and believed in. You tried to imply he must have decided I wasn't worth being exclusive to and that was the justification for his deception. I know I was not the problem, he was. Like I said I only write 2 inmates, until this guy I never even contemplated a relationship and was very conflicted about it. Trust me after what I've gone through lately this will be my last DR love affair. I am not desperate, irresponsible or fickle when it comes to men I fall for.

I did nothing wrong to this man and I don't feel he lied to me because he suspected I was not what I seemed to be or that he did not care about me. This is about DR and what it can do to men and how this can impair them in relationships. I suffered the consequences of it and wanted to warn other women about it.

This is what DR can do to people.



The SHU Syndrome and Community Mental Health

The SHU Syndome is a little known form of psychiatric decompensation, with a quickly rising incidence. It occurs in supermaximum security prisons, where a growing number of individuals suffering from serious and persistend mental disorders are housed.

"SHU" means "Security Housing Unit." Some states use that acronym for their supermaximum security prison units, where the prisoners are locked in their cells nearly 24 hours per day and are cell-fed. Other states use other initials, but "SHU" has become the generic term for supermax or "maximaxi" or "control units," such as the ones at Pelical Bay State Prison in California or Marion or Florence in the federal system. Thirty-eight states and the federal system currently operate such units.
These units are like "the hole" of the old days, except a prisoner who misbehaved was thrown in "the hole" for ten days, whereas prisoners are sent to the SHU for years. And instead of being a dark, damp dungeon: most SHU's are high tech, lights-on-all-night, doors open by remote control, video monitoring of prisoners, etc. -- i.e., the prisoners have very minimal contact with guards and other prisoners.

Psychiatrist Stuart Grassian (http://www.wpic.pitt.edu/aacp/Vol-12-3/shu-ref.html) coined the term "SHU Syndrome." He examined a large number of prisoners during their stay in segregated, solitary confinement units and concluded that these units, like the sensory deprivation environments that were studied in the Sixties, tend to induce psychosis. Even those inmates who do not become frankly psychotic report a number of psychosis-like symptoms:
Massive free-floating anxiety.
Hyper-responsiveness to external stimuli, including a startle response.
Perceptual distortions and hallucinations in multiple spheres (auditory, visual, olfactory).
Derealization experiences.
Difficulty with concentration and memory.
Acute confusional states, at times associated with dissociative features, mutism, and subsequent partial amnesia for those events.
The emergence of primitive, ego-dystonic aggressive fantasies.
Ideas of reference and persecutory ideation, at times reaching delusional proportions.
Motor excitement, often associated with sudden, violent destructive or self-mutilatory outbursts.
Rapid reduction of symptoms upon termination of isolation.
And why should we, as public mental health practitioners, be concerned about this widespread development? I can think of two very frightening reasons:
Between a quarter and a half of the prisoners in all the SHU's I have visited or read about suffer from serious and long-term mental illnesses. They are, on average, the most severely psychotic people I have seen in my 25 years of psychiatric practice. There are two basic reasons for this: inadequately treated prisoners suffering from mental disorders break rules, get into fights (often as victims -- they are called "dings" or "bugs"), and are punished with time in "lock-up" or solitary confinement of one kind or another. After they get sentenced to enough time in solitary, they are sent to the SHU -- where "The SHU Syndrome" effect worsens their psychotic symptoms and their prognosis.
Increasingly, prisoners are "Maxing out of the SHU." Prisoners on fixed sentences have a release date, and their disciplinary infractions in prison do not extend that date, though they are sentenced to SHU time for the infractions. When their release date comes up, even if they are housed in a SHU at the time, they are simply set free. (Some states do some pre-release programming, but the ones I have reviewed are not adequate to the task of re-socializing someone who is psychotic and has been in solitary for a long time.)
Of course, the implications for community mental health are omninous. Not only are individuals suffering from severe and long-term mental illnesses being sent to prisons in ever larger proportions, but they are not adequately treated, and they wind up in lock-up. A subgroup of them are showing up in SHU's (another subgroup voluntarily isolate themselves in their cells so they won't get in trouble) and then, eventually, "maxing out of the SHU." This means that they come out of prison after spending months or years in a cell by themselves, decompensated and full or rage.
I don't think I am being overly dramatic, and the phenomenon is spreading rapidly. There are three things interested persons can do: (1) Join the AACP and the Committee on the Mentally Ill Behind Bars, which Fred Osher (http://www.wpic.pitt.edu/aacp/bio/foshe.html) and I co-chair; (2) Check on whether there are Supermaximum Security Unit(s) in the prisons in your state, and whether mentally ill felons are confined in them; and (3) Educate yourself. Come to a large conference in Berkeley, September 25 - 27, "Critical Resistance: Beyond the Prison-Industrial Complex." It aims to build networks for progressive prison reform. Contact me regarding any of these options at Terry A Kupers, : (e-mail and physical addresses removed per PTO policy. Please PM member)

Hard Candy

I dont recall saying anything directly towards you and calling you anything, or insinulating anything directly at you I was genaralizing as you were. Yes you are hostile, I see that and you are hurt and I am sorry for that. But in one breathe you call it deciet (not sincere) in the other you say its because it is the inevitable because of his confinement and he more or less is damaged due to his eviroment (which is a sincere statement). However you are mistaken about my position I remarked twice now that it was your LAST paragraph of your original post that was not appropriate for this post. However; I do being in this for so long know what you are saying, i didn't like your presentation is all. Now I am not offended by you, I dont know you, however I am offended at the ALL aspect of your post, there is too much of that on PTO sometimes and this is a place we "loved" one's come to find peers in the same boat that "love" there men on DR. We dont not want to hear more of the same about how we might be deceived or being set up for deceit because someone like yourself has had a bad 6 months with a DR inmate. Personally it is all over these forums and it is getting old to me. Its not against you its against the topic. Moreover, there are many sides to the coin jjs811 posted one scenario of what these men go threw and there is the other side too what also goes on with pp that play with these very same inmates mentally ill or not. I have made my peace on this with you, both of us have valid points, you took it personally. I was standing out for the other side of this (the DR inmate its not always so cookie cutter). You want to understand your man's mind because you care for him well then just re-read your own post about where his mind might be at and decide if you can love him with those conditions. I am not trying to be cute, I am being sincere, if you can accept ALL then go for it, but if you find yourself in that place of judgement against him then bail and save yourself and him alot of time and heartache. Ive been in this a long time not 1 year or 2 or even just 3 but 9. Know your heart and your limitations and his mind and his confinment issues and needs and if you can hang with that, i wish you and him luck, i really do.

Take Care and good luck to you both..

Hard Candy
Now I am not offended by you, I dont know you, however I am offended at the ALL aspect of your post, there is too much of that on PTO sometimes and this is a place we "loved" one's come to find peers in the same boat that "love" there men on DR. We dont not want to hear more of the same about how we might be deceived or being set up for deceit because someone like yourself has had a bad 6 months with a DR inmate.


This is how I felt and what my coment was about. Cx2 is just a million times better with how she puts things.
I know men on dr that scam women so I am very well aware of it going on and I also know a couple of men who don't and get really frustrated with the men who do as it tends to mean they are judged before people even get to know them.
I find I hear quite regularly 'you shouldn't be with someone like him', 'he'll only hurt you', 'he's probably only out to get money off you' etc and I come here to get away from all that negativity.
I too am sorry if I upset you that really wasn't my intention.

I am a big fighter against all these prejudices about men on death row and of course there are players inthere, but also out there. And, again, on BOTH sides.
I guess I am taking Hard Candys words easier because I understand her pain very well. Especially in a world like this it hurts so much and for me its so much harder to go away and say "f..." you. Because when you go, he will be still inthere, waiting for his execution. Maybe with an other woman by his side, but that doesnt mean that you wont have to watch him being on the list one day. Somebody your heart was so close to. Your soulmate. Somebody who was a very important part of your life, for a few month, a year or even more...its no matter of time by the way. You are getting deeply involved in all that so fast, believe me.
Death Row also put the women in chains pretty quickly.
For me thats the most difficult part. Thats something you cant be aware of because its so non-normal, nothing you can imagine when you havent experienced it before. I took this relationship very, very serious and that he broke with me for an other woman and with no explanations was one of the most painful situations I had to go through in my whole life. It almost killed me.
But I have learned out of it and I see things different now. I am also more critical with these relationships. Yes, it opened my eyes, you know.
But I will never judge my "ex". Hey, I am not even mad with him. He lives in a horrible, horrible system, his life time is running out with each day and he needs to go his own way to survive all this. If I wasnt the right woman, I wasnt. Then he also wasnt the right man.
You cant force somebody to love you. And when he played a game with you, then he wasnt the right one, its pretty clear to me.
But I also needed my time to come to this point of view. That I found my real love in somebody who was very close to me for a long time, helped me tremendously. Without him...I dont know if I had survived all this. He is special and amazing and faithful - and he is on death row too.

But I want to say one more thing:
Death Row let alot of victims behind where nobody expects them.

I need to add something: I dont call my "Ex" a player. He did what he had to do and I still respect him. And a part of my heart will always be with him, no matter what.

Ok, Ladies... just another reminder to StacyWar's post. There will be no more calling each other out in this thread.

This is a very interesting topic and can be discussed in a civil manner without bashing or being disrespectful to another member.

I can understand the concerns here of woman (and the men) because 'outside' we have our friends and families who are all part of our social circle and its almost three dimensional, your friends can meet your new man and give you a girlie 'heads-up' on him... but with this situation its very intense, one to one, so we can feel isolated from any feedback you might give, thumbs up from your mum or whatever. Same for the men, the only connection they have on reality is whats written in a letter. But then the love takes over and steers the course...and you meet his family if you are fortunate and the love grows even in the most hostile of environments, deathrow and all the negative press we grow stronger.

This is my first visit here and you know what more drama than real life. It all turned me off. So much for supporting each other and sticking to gethr

You have to admit ladies Sugapuddin has a point!

I for one thank HardCandy for her post. Even my guy on DR has told me it's all true. Some of them will play women, have several at once as to never be without someone. Some even have their letters written by others. It's strategy on surviving. Some are more evolved spiritually, and emotionally and are the real deal.

Also there is nothing wrong with discussing all sides of a relationship with someone on DR. So thank you.

“Given this I asked the guy I was considering embarking upon a relationship with to be transparent about the other women he writes to. I explained that I refused to be humiliated or devastated by being contacted by a stranger who informed me she was involved romantically with him. He insisted I was the only person apart from his mom that he corresponded with and reassured me how much he wanted and loved me. I persisted in my questioning and he became irritated and blamed any inconsistencies I exposed on my "jealousy" and "paranoia". Well, I investigated further before giving him my heart and discovered the many lies he had told me. During our contact he has actively sought out and flirted with other females. It has been horrible to learn he wasn't who I thought he was yet I am thankful I had this realisation now before I became more embroiled with him.”


Welcome to the Club. ^_^


I'm in love with a Death Row inmate. I trust him but there are a bit part of doubt in me.
I'm very paranoid.
Thank for your story, I found it very interesting.
You know, he said me he talk with me and one other person who is “like his mother”.
He said me that he have other “penpal”, but there aren't any “connection”, so he has stopped that.
Hum, I don't know.
He know my past (We have many things in common from this point...), my actual situation, etc.
He know I've no money, or other. And he haven't request me anything. No object, no money, nothing, just Friendship then Love.
But, your story make me feel afraid.
I think, I will write him, and tell him about that.
Even if we promise the truth, I don't know...
I'll see... But in all cases, thanks for your story. I was captivate.


P.S: Sorry about my bad and poor English.

Don't worry one bit about your English, it is a whole lot better than my French :D


“Given this I asked the guy I was considering embarking upon a relationship with to be transparent about the other women he writes to. I explained that I refused to be humiliated or devastated by being contacted by a stranger who informed me she was involved romantically with him. He insisted I was the only person apart from his mom that he corresponded with and reassured me how much he wanted and loved me. I persisted in my questioning and he became irritated and blamed any inconsistencies I exposed on my "jealousy" and "paranoia". Well, I investigated further before giving him my heart and discovered the many lies he had told me. During our contact he has actively sought out and flirted with other females. It has been horrible to learn he wasn't who I thought he was yet I am thankful I had this realisation now before I became more embroiled with him.”


Welcome to the Club. ^_^


I'm in love with a Death Row inmate. I trust him but there are a bit part of doubt in me.
I'm very paranoid.
Thank for your story, I found it very interesting.
You know, he said me he talk with me and one other person who is “like his mother”.
He said me that he have other “penpal”, but there aren't any “connection”, so he has stopped that.
Hum, I don't know.
He know my past (We have many things in common from this point...), my actual situation, etc.
He know I've no money, or other. And he haven't request me anything. No object, no money, nothing, just Friendship then Love.
But, your story make me feel afraid.
I think, I will write him, and tell him about that.
Even if we promise the truth, I don't know...
I'll see... But in all cases, thanks for your story. I was captivate.


P.S: Sorry about my bad and poor English.

Hey Ladies...
I think we should not differentiate so much "Men on DR" and men on the outside...YOU know if you can trust him or not, but that is not, I believe, dependent on whether he is on DR or not!

Possessiveness however is really bad...these guys need attention, and NOBODY should be allowed to deny them that, girlfriend, wife or whatever! If you choose to be his woman, then trust him, or let him go!!

Now there are many so-called "Players" on DR but, there are some real men too!

These are general reflections, and are not directed to anybody in particular ^^

Hey I missed this post first time round but it made really interesting reading. I can see both sides of the argument, I too have been in a relationship with a d/r inmate that all went wrong because of his jealousy and paranoia ( he has bi-polar). Towards the end of the relationship I found out that I wasnt the only women in his life and yes I was angry and hurt because he was the one accusing me. I had a lot of support off everyone on here and although I am no longer in this relationship we have been able to remain friends and still correspond. I dont feel bitter because I now understand what prison can do to people.

How true is this? How many have been played by men in the free world? Men are men, on DR or not. There are some who are genuine, some not. Sadly once a bad story hits, then all DR inmates are bad - NO they are not! I agree with many who say some are out to use woman to fund commissary etc, but lets be honest here, you can only be played if you allow yourself to be. People who are in relationships with DR men, to find out are not the only ones, sure that has to hurt like hell, I know I would be devastated if I was in love with a guy and he did that to me, but men do it in the free world also.

It is easy to sit and think that because these men sit in a condemned cell 23 out of 24 hours, they are faithful, and there, but they are still men! ALL relationships need to be kept real. Don't assume anything about anyone, and place a guard on your heart and your bank balance until you are as sure as you can be all is as he says it is. The slightest red flag would be enough to put me highly on my guard, no matter what my feelings for him were. If I don't take care of me, who will?


Hey Ladies...
I think we should not differentiate so much "Men on DR" and men on the outside...YOU know if you can trust him or not, but that is not, I believe, dependent on whether he is on DR or not!

Possessiveness however is really bad...these guys need attention, and NOBODY should be allowed to deny them that, girlfriend, wife or whatever! If you choose to be his woman, then trust him, or let him go!!

Now there are many so-called "Players" on DR but, there are some real men too!

These are general reflections, and are not directed to anybody in particular ^^

Cat fight! Cat fight! Ok, just kidding but I think all of you need to chill a bit.

As a member of the gender you folks are talking about, you really need to understand that we tend to play women. I personally don't think I do, but maybe I have in the past.

My lady friend on DR is the only person I have ever written to. I remember her case(s) and I even attended the trial as it was a huge case here in my neck of the woods. She unfortunately made the mistake that a lot of women seem to make in general. She had 2 kids and was looking for a "great guy" and she thought he was "the one". Of course, he turned out to be the worst kind of sexual psychopath and within 3 months she was addicted to meth and participating with him-albeit with a drug addled mind.

I have known and visited her for two years (this June 16th) and it's only a 120 mile drive to the prison. I have feelings for her only because I know the whole case and know that she really was another one of his victims. He's also on DR and has used women to try to get to her and stay in her head. I stay out of it and try to protect her and just be a friend. Yes, I get her a quarterly package and I usually put about $60 a month in her canteen. She not only is extremely grateful, but I have to admit I do it not just for her, but also for me.

The only reason she didn't get LWOP was because her trial was not bifurcated and she got swept up in the emotion of the hideous nature of the crimes...of which she bares some responsibility for sure. I at times have questioned if I'm being used (I can afford the $$ no problem). I have discussed this with her and I believe I can now fully feel confident that we are truly friends.

I just talked with her tonight and sometimes it's just batshit crazy in the cage that the 15 (soon to be 16) women are housed. It really is a cage as the CDC so aptly depicts on their website. However, I feel that I help her stay as sane as possible in that environment. What we talked about tonight was kinda funny as she was telling me about some stuff in there and part of the reason I couldn't grasp it was because she ultimately said it was a woman thing! Yes, even on DR the dynamics of our genders play out.

I guess I'm saying all this because when I decided to write her, it wasn't a morbid curiousity but rather a need to communicate with her and let her know that her penpal request touched me. As with most women incarcerated for murder and whatnot-she fell in with a real animal. He truly is the personification of evil and she is still scared to death of him. My role was and is to show her that there are good men out there and that I didn't just happen upon her without knowing what all the facts were.

I remember one of the gals in here gave me advise that once you become a friend of a DR inmate you really need to make a lifelong committment. Believe me, there have been times that I want to just go away but I can't. She fills a need for me also, but on a friendship level.

What's really cool about our situation is that we have contact visits and even though it's in a locked room (in and out) we get to know each other a helluva lot better than just writing letters. I love to get the food she wants at visiting and as I have grown to know her, I really enjoy talking with and visiting her. I have accepted the fact that she has a small to zero chance of getting it knocked down to LWOP and I stay out of trying to "help" with her case. I leave that to the appellate process, which of course takes forever. I'm honest with her. All I can do is be there for her and it does pain me to know that she will always have two guards and shackles on whenever she leaves the cage for medical or coming down to the visiting room the every 5 weeks or so that I come down to see her.

I could keep writing because this forum is the only place where people know about our relationship. I can't tell anyone because they all remember the case here and they all would probably want to assist in her execution. The facts out here are that she is about the 700th person in line for execution and she would probably be about 250 years old by the time they got to her. This is a good thing because like most of you it would pain me deeply to know that she was going to die at the hand of the state.

I'll be honest. I'm torn at times about the DP. Emotionally there are hundreds of men out here who I have trouble with knowing that they are still alive and breathing and their victims aren't. Human beings can do the worst possible things to each other and that is really a sad commentary on the human race. I wish like hell she would never have met him and that 6 month run she got caught up in has filled her with so much remorse that she has continual nightmares...and they will NEVER go away.

She can't stop thanking me enough for the things I have gotten her, and I almost have to yell at her and say, IT'S OK! She doesn't have to do it but that is the kind of person she is. But I'll tell you this, she would be perfectly OK if I never got her anything but was just a friend. I feel for her, but I also know that being a women on DR is completely different than being a man. We men have some serious testosterone issues and she knows that her situation is nowhere near as crazy as it is being cooped up in a closet size cell with 700 other crazy men. She has enough problem dealing with the 14 women she's stuck with :)

Anywho, leave the OP alone. She spoke from her heart and for that she has my respect. If you all want to read her mind, have at it. I personally don't have that ability. "Loving" a DR inmate has many aspects to it. It ain't always about sex and it ain't always about jealousy. Just do your own thing and let others do their's.

OK, that enough! I really, really appreciate this whole prison talk thingy and where else do people like us have to go. I know that I'm very comfortable keeping our relationship just between us and my peeps out here in the world would never understand, nor do they need to know.

You have to admit ladies Sugapuddin has a point!

It's a girl thing.....




I am only very new here, and have only been a PP a while, with no relationships but here is my $0.02

I think that DR men get lonely. Plain and simple. And the caring of one woman, be it her all, simply isn't enough. They get nothing of the real world except us. The little things we take for granted, like the birds chirping while I type, and having to turn on the lamp in a min as the light fades, they don't get. We have to tell them about that.

And with harsh mental pressure, anything to occupy them, and give them a little enjoyment is a good thing.

HardCandy, I'm so sorry you got hurt.

Couldn't agree more quirkybez!

I have been with my guy for four years in January and I love him like nobody else before him.

Everyone gets lonely and to suggest that anyone should only be allowed one relationship is in my opinion somewhat cruel. I know my man gets lonely. He writes me two or three times each week. With my family my friends my work the gym the pub concerts comedy shows reading and television I write to him once each week. Don't get me wrong it is a long letter and I love to write him but what I am trying to articulate (and probably failing to do) is that I have so much more going on. He is a part (a very big part) of my full and active life so why would I be so cruel to suggest that he has no life apart from me? I couldn't tell him to write nobody else or share experiences and relationships with nobody else. What I can ask him is not to fall in love with anyone else, to keep our relationship special and share those sweet words and moments with me alone because that is what I expect from a relationship.

Just like the outside world if he cannot do that then for sure I will eventually find him out and the relationship will be over. No diffeent than a husband flirting with the receptionist at work or the teacher at their kids school the barmaid or the instructor in the gym. These things happen death row or outside world. You can't depend on a death row inmate to be any different from men on the outside and you wouldnlt lock them up without access to other people or other stimulus so why try just cause a guy is banged up?

Some men play women and some women play men. The trick is what you do about it when you find out. That is what makes you either a doormat willing to be played or someone who loved and lost.

We each control our own destiny!