View Full Version : RACE does play a part in Sentencing!


Wobabi
01-08-2009, 09:30 AM
Lets make no mistakes about it, Race does play a BIG part in sentencing.
There have been countless of studies to prove it.
The latest changes in the crack sentencing guidelines is just a tip of the ice berg!
FAMM is an organization that has worked so hard on issues like this but due to the latest Madoff Ponzi Scheme,,they too face financial troubles keeping up the fight for Equality.:blah:

templart
01-09-2009, 12:06 AM
BAby I feel you 100% on this issue and I agree the war on drugs needs to stop alot of men are getting there whole lives taken away for one mistake and its sad but needless to say I cant say what I really want to say on here!!

SpicaRigel
01-09-2009, 12:33 AM
I agree babi! And race certainly had everything to do with that poor young man in Oakland being shot by the policeman while he was restrained. Insanity!

Warrior Wife
01-09-2009, 05:44 AM
This is America: RACE PLAYS A PART IN EVERYTHING.

We can talk about being "color blind" (a term I despise) and stick our heads in the sand (so many people do) but the ugly truth is that this nation has a legacy of racism that is far from resolved.

Wishing and/or pretending it's over doesn't change a damn thing.

Be the cange you want to see in the world. Ghandi

WW

Mark2008
01-09-2009, 05:51 AM
Absolutely race plays a role. This is a government of the whites, by the whites and for the whites. Always had been.

When a white man or woman walks into the courtroom, dressed nicely, accompanied by his lawyer and his parents, the judge, jury and DA see someone that could easily be THEIR son or daughter who made a mistake, but is basically a good person.

When a black, Asian or Hispanic walks into that same courtroom, the judge, jury and DA see someone who might be ready to rob them in an alley on the way to their car or rape their daughter. They are DIFFERENT. And different is bad. So they get treated accordingly. That's the price they pay for being a minority. It's like running a race with a ball and chain shackled to your ankle.

The smart ones realize that going in, that they aren't going to get a break and better be darn near perfect in every area if they are going to succeed in a white man's world.

Mark2008
01-09-2009, 05:52 AM
This is America: RACE PLAYS A PART IN EVERYTHING.

We can talk about being "color blind" (a term I despise) and stick our heads in the sand (so many people do) but the ugly truth is that this nation has a legacy of racism that is far from resolved.

Wishing and/or pretending it's over doesn't change a damn thing.

Be the cange you want to see in the world. Ghandi

WW

America is reaping the curse for the sins of its forefathers.... especially slavery.

irshnrse
01-09-2009, 06:14 AM
Babi--No argument here.

Wobabi
01-09-2009, 06:18 AM
Absolutely race plays a role. This is a government of the whites, by the whites and for the whites. Always had been.

When a white man or woman walks into the courtroom, dressed nicely, accompanied by his lawyer and his parents, the judge, jury and DA see someone that could easily be THEIR son or daughter who made a mistake, but is basically a good person.

When a black, Asian or Hispanic walks into that same courtroom, the judge, jury and DA see someone who might be ready to rob them in an alley on the way to their car or rape their daughter. They are DIFFERENT. And different is bad. So they get treated accordingly. That's the price they pay for being a minority. It's like running a race with a ball and chain shackled to your ankle.

The smart ones realize that going in, that they aren't going to get a break and better be darn near perfect in every area if they are going to succeed in a white man's world.
You are correct in every way!

yzz aka Flygirlaa alias
01-09-2009, 06:19 AM
Yeah sure does. But why play a game that is pre-loaded against you? Thats the part the frustrates me.

Sunny_n_G
01-09-2009, 06:20 AM
Wobabi I COMPLETELY agree. My fiancee (as you can see in the picture) is a black man. Now, when he got caught up with this crime there were 6 people. 5 being white. 2 with previous warrants for various other things. My man.... got 5-30. Never been to jail or prison before and has NEVER gotten into trouble. The people with warrants... they got 1-2 years... One of them got boot camp... It's ridiculous. And really incredibly sad. I agree with Warrior Wife. Race plays a part in everything.

For Heaven's sake, look at how they are trying to knock down Obama! Let alone... our prisoners, average joe's, etc.

...It is 2009. I believe Obama. "It's time for a change." Period.

Me and my fiancee have talked about this endlessly. We have a hard time because we are an interracial couple. The CO's (some) want to give us a hard time. I've never seen racism like this.
...it's sad. But at the end of the day, NO ONE is going to knock us down.

Wobabi
01-09-2009, 06:29 AM
Yeah sure does. But why play a game that is pre-loaded against you? Thats the part the frustrates me.
What game? Trying to survive? Trying to scrape money from somewhere?
The majority of men in prison are in for non-violent drug crimes.
What would make a man get inthe drug game when there are so many well paying jobs that would hire a black man?

irshnrse
01-09-2009, 06:32 AM
Thank you Babi. If I could have, I would have thanked you many times.
Or how else is an 11 yr old supposed to help feed his family? A sweat shop? No... hustling.

yzz aka Flygirlaa alias
01-09-2009, 06:33 AM
What game? Trying to survive? Trying to scrape money from somewhere?
The majority of men in prison are in for non-violent drug crimes.
What would make a man get inthe drug game when there are so many well paying jobs that would hire a black man?
And yet the majority of black men have jobs and dont sell drugs. Personally, I get tired of watching men I love go down for decades when they knew from the beginning that the system is racist. I refuse to be a enabler and pretend there isnt any other way.

Wobabi
01-09-2009, 06:34 AM
And yet the majority of black men have jobs and dont sell drugs. Personally, I get tired of watching men I love go down for decades when they knew from the beginning that the system is racist. I refuse to be a enabler and pretend there isnt any other way.
You can say that from your seat

yzz aka Flygirlaa alias
01-09-2009, 06:36 AM
You can say that from your seat
And what seat would that be?

smartchild
01-09-2009, 07:09 AM
Hello all!! Thought you could all use a chuckle. My husband and I are neither white, nor black, nor hispanic nor oriental.We migrated from a country where literacy is very high and have been good citizens of this country for over 35 years now.We both are professionals and always appropriately dressed.Our son who is also well educated, unfortumately fell into some bad company. He was arrested with a "friend" of his for a non-violent crime.

When he came up for his day in court, he got a sentence for 10 yrs for a first time offense, why because he plead guilty to his crime- tried to be honest and to an extent naive too. We had a very high priced lawyer defending him who was white, we had a distinguished looking judge who was black and the district attorney who was white but a second generation immigrant.

Our sons "friend" was a pro in his "field", in which our son got caught up, which was stupid on our sons part. Yet this gentleman plead "not guilty", had a black lawyer, same district attorney and the same judge.He is roaming the streets a free man, and when I did a little research on him has two sheets of charges against him, from theft to break in and enter to kidnapping.You name it he has done it.

Do you call this racism or justice ????

For the records our son is 6'3" tall, very well built and fit, pleasant face,appealing personality, could pass for white(dark complexioned whit male), black(Light skinned black man), italian or mediterranian.He is a well educated young man (Of course I am his mother, but this is what I have heard all my life about him)

TedEBare
01-09-2009, 07:23 AM
I agree that race plays a factor in sentencing. I, also, agree that some "play the game" to pay the bills and put food on the table. However, there are plenty that do it for "easy" money.

Before G went back for a parole violation, there were times we were struggling to stay ahead of the shut-off notices. But, there were easier times, as well. When we were struggling, he'd be tempted to go back to his old ways. I talked him down. When we had the easier times, sometimes he'd be tempted to go back to his old ways to buy me things or himself things. I talked him down. We're a "white" couple but, my point is, the "easy" money is so tempting at times.

****I put "easy" in parentheses because G spent 14 years of his life due to his "easy" money. I remind him of that when he gets tempted.****

xgot420issuesx
01-09-2009, 08:02 AM
It is far too easy for some people to take the easy way out. Who ever said life was easy, it isn't. But that doesn't mean you have to go sell drugs to get by. I certainly don't. I have had at one time or another ALL my utilities shut off, from electric, to gas, to water, to phone, to cable, you name it, at one time of another I have had it shut off because I couldn't afford to pay. I have had times where I have not had any food in my house, but I managed, LEGALLY to get by and take care of my business. I never sold drugs, sold my body, none of that.
I grew up poorer than poor, lived in the projects at one time, my mother was on welfare, we had been evicted a few times from places we lived. But one thing my mother taught me was this, life isn't easy and there are easy ways out, but have some morals and decency to get yourself by. I may have to swallow my pride at times to ask for help, BUT I NEVER break the law to get by.
I HATE the excuse of being poor. That is NOT an excuse, that is only a reason to want better and to do better. Stand up and take responsibility for your life and actions. THAT is what the problem is in society today. Using being poor as an excuse makes ALL of us poor people look bad. I am in no way by any stretch of the imagination remotely even close to being comfortable as far as money is concerned, but I have never been tempted to sell drugs. If a person gets arrested for dealing drugs, it is their own fault. If the person gets a higher sentence than the next guy, that is their own fault, they shouldn't do the crime. And knowing that there is rasicm, that shoudl be an even bigger reason to not want to break the law. I agree with one other poster who said something alone the lines of, If you know it is out there, why mess with it. If I know I don't have a fair shot at something, I don't mess with it. It is rather simple. And if an 11 year old is trying to put food on the table, it isn't the systems fault, it is the parents fault. The amount of help out there for poor people is tremendous, all you have to do is swallow your pride and ask for it. I live in possibly one of the $hittiest most corrupt cities, and there is help here ....

I wasn't going to resond to this thread because I do not ever want to offend anyone. I may be white, but I can certainly speak about being poor. I also can certainly speak about how the justice system isn't fair to people of all colors, white included. Being poor is NEVER an excuse. I don't rob people, I don't sell drugs, I don't rob banks, people need to stop taking the easy way out and stop blaming everything on the system or the government. You are the only one who controls you and how you do life. No one ever held a gun to my head and made me do anything I didn't want to do. One look in my kids eyes, that is all it takes, I want better for them, so I set a better example, not a bad or easy one. If you can't afford one kid, what makes you think you can afford 2 or 3 or 6 ........ It is not a secret that having children is expensive and takes a lot of work, DON'T GET PREGNANT. There is a very simple way not to, ABSTINANCE. And if you are like me and had 3 children at a time in yur life when you could afford it and then suddenly found yourself a single parent, there is help out there. Damn welfare will even help pay for tuition and job training and daycare and buy you a car.
The poor me card is far too easy for people to play, taking responcibilty for your actions requires some work.

I respect all people and thier situations, I hope I didn't offend anyone, that is not my intention. I am just one more opinion in a world of them.

tibs
01-09-2009, 08:23 AM
Wobabi, sorry for my ignorance, but please explain the acronym FAMM, I am Canadian (some might define that as simply a member of the 51st state, lol)... and I certainly do agree that racism plays a major role in sentencing in North America... Racism is systemic, it is an intregal part of capitalism and as someone have already suggested... absoulutely has impacted all aspects of (North) American society. Not only are People of Colour, and Aborignal Peoples unfairly and disproportionately targeted, convicted and sentenced these disparigies disproportionately fuel the already prevailing woes of the status quo. And even as we strive and make advances to end racial divide, we (especially we most affected) understand and recognize that the more things change... in fact the more they seem to stay the same.

TedEBare
01-09-2009, 08:34 AM
The amount of help out there for poor people is tremendous, all you have to do is swallow your pride and ask for it. I live in possibly one of the $hittiest most corrupt cities, and there is help here ....



WRONG. My ex-husband has been unemployed for 2 years. He probably should be classified as disabled. But, doesn't have insurance to see a doctor. He went to get help...they told him, "Get a job!" He's 57 and can barely move. No one will hire him. He's now living off of my 21 year old daughter and her boyfriend. And, they have 2 children.

Did he find a way? Yeh, he swallowed his pride, all right. Now, a young couple that was struggling to begin with, is struggling even more. Especially since her boyfriend's plant shut down. Will any of them turn to anything illegal? No, but damn I bet it's tempting.

Wobabi
01-09-2009, 08:35 AM
FAMM is Families Against Mandatory Min
420Issues-The problem is you are missing Systematic Effects of Opression and Poverty. Desperation leads different people to differnt things.
I could go on about how this country systematically targets black men for Opression but it would take the topic off post.
Being poor has it's ills
Rascism has it ills
The bottom line is it is not right for a Black man to get twenty years for a crime a white man gets probation and the ONLY determining FACTOR is his RACE.
And it happens EVERY DAY
I don't expect you to get it-I really don't

TedEBare
01-09-2009, 08:38 AM
I recently saw a statistic on Prison Talk that they figure the number of whites wrongfully convicted is 1% or less too. However, blacks is 3%. Now, why didn't that surprise me?

xgot420issuesx
01-09-2009, 08:43 AM
FAMM is Families Against Mandatory Min
420Issues-The problem is you are missing Systematic Effects of Opression and Poverty. Desperation leads different people to differnt things.
I could go on about how this country systematically targets black men for Opression but it would take the topic off post.
Being poor has it's ills
Rascism has it ills
The bottom line is it is not right for a Black man to get twenty years for a crime a white man gets probation and the ONLY determining FACTOR is his RACE.
And it happens EVERY DAY
I don't expect you to get it-I really don't

Why don't you expect me to get it may I ask .....

I was speaking in general about being poor. That I can speak about, I have enough knowledge and intelligence to do so. I speak from my own experience. I could go on about other things but considering people are easily offended I don't.

xgot420issuesx
01-09-2009, 08:45 AM
I recently saw a statistic on Prison Talk that they figure the number of whites wrongfully convicted is 1% or less too. However, blacks is 3%. Now, why didn't that surprise me?

The number would be higher for blacks because the number of blacks in prison is higher. So therefore, being that there are less whites, the number for whites would be lower.

Sunflower
01-09-2009, 08:47 AM
It is far too easy for some people to take the easy way out. Who ever said life was easy, it isn't. But that doesn't mean you have to go sell drugs to get by. I certainly don't. I have had at one time or another ALL my utilities shut off, from electric, to gas, to water, to phone, to cable, you name it, at one time of another I have had it shut off because I couldn't afford to pay. I have had times where I have not had any food in my house, but I managed, LEGALLY to get by and take care of my business. I never sold drugs, sold my body, none of that.
I grew up poorer than poor, lived in the projects at one time, my mother was on welfare, we had been evicted a few times from places we lived. But one thing my mother taught me was this, life isn't easy and there are easy ways out, but have some morals and decency to get yourself by. I may have to swallow my pride at times to ask for help, BUT I NEVER break the law to get by.
I HATE the excuse of being poor. That is NOT an excuse, that is only a reason to want better and to do better. Stand up and take responsibility for your life and actions. THAT is what the problem is in society today. Using being poor as an excuse makes ALL of us poor people look bad. I am in no way by any stretch of the imagination remotely even close to being comfortable as far as money is concerned, but I have never been tempted to sell drugs. If a person gets arrested for dealing drugs, it is their own fault. If the person gets a higher sentence than the next guy, that is their own fault, they shouldn't do the crime. And knowing that there is rasicm, that shoudl be an even bigger reason to not want to break the law. I agree with one other poster who said something alone the lines of, If you know it is out there, why mess with it. If I know I don't have a fair shot at something, I don't mess with it. It is rather simple. And if an 11 year old is trying to put food on the table, it isn't the systems fault, it is the parents fault. The amount of help out there for poor people is tremendous, all you have to do is swallow your pride and ask for it. I live in possibly one of the $hittiest most corrupt cities, and there is help here ....

I wasn't going to resond to this thread because I do not ever want to offend anyone. I may be white, but I can certainly speak about being poor. I also can certainly speak about how the justice system isn't fair to people of all colors, white included. Being poor is NEVER an excuse. I don't rob people, I don't sell drugs, I don't rob banks, people need to stop taking the easy way out and stop blaming everything on the system or the government. You are the only one who controls you and how you do life. No one ever held a gun to my head and made me do anything I didn't want to do. One look in my kids eyes, that is all it takes, I want better for them, so I set a better example, not a bad or easy one. If you can't afford one kid, what makes you think you can afford 2 or 3 or 6 ........ It is not a secret that having children is expensive and takes a lot of work, DON'T GET PREGNANT. There is a very simple way not to, ABSTINANCE. And if you are like me and had 3 children at a time in yur life when you could afford it and then suddenly found yourself a single parent, there is help out there. Damn welfare will even help pay for tuition and job training and daycare and buy you a car.
The poor me card is far too easy for people to play, taking responcibilty for your actions requires some work.

I respect all people and thier situations, I hope I didn't offend anyone, that is not my intention. I am just one more opinion in a world of them.



It is NOT EASY getting help. I did swallow my pride and go to welfare. And was told over and over again that I didnt qualify and this and that.
Ive tried everything I do get medicaid for my son because he is special needs. We have homeless people all over here holding signs up, kids freezing to death because parents cant afford heat. The system is out of money. They even stopped ALL DAYCARE vouchers, you know how many moms had to quit because they didnt even make enough to pay daycare.

As far as social services buying ya a car im moving to your state then! Its easy to preach it but to have to go through it is different!

xgot420issuesx
01-09-2009, 08:53 AM
It is NOT EASY getting help. I did swallow my pride and go to welfare. And was told over and over again that I didnt qualify and this and that.
Ive tried everything I do get medicaid for my son because he is special needs. We have homeless people all over here holding signs up, kids freezing to death because parents cant afford heat. The system is out of money. They even stopped ALL DAYCARE vouchers, you know how many moms had to quit because they didnt even make enough to pay daycare.

As far as social services buying ya a car im moving to your state then! Its easy to preach it but to have to go through it is different!

As I said in my post, I am not preaching, I HAVE been through it. I DO KNOW what I am talking about. What do you think I tell people I am poor for the fun of it, no because I am honest and I have been there. So unless you misunderstood what I wrote, I do not see how you can say I shouldn't preach unless I have been through it ........

Wobabi
01-09-2009, 08:55 AM
The number would be higher for blacks because the number of blacks in prison is higher. So therefore, being that there are less whites, the number for whites would be lower.
Exactly and why are blacks 85% of the FEderal prison population but they are less than 8% of the whole population?
Conviction rates based on race my dear.
but I bet if they would start giving the Drug Users the SAME amount of time as the drug sellers... you would see Black men become the minority in prison.I wish the day would come when users go to jail with the same amount of time as sellers.
I think you need to do more research on the topic of Race and convictions,,its hard to have someone understand if they are only willing to look from their own perspective.
You dont want to ACCEPT race plays a part but at the same time you dont want to really investigate to see what is the truth.

xgot420issuesx
01-09-2009, 09:01 AM
Exactly and why are blacks 85% of the FEderal prison population but they are less than 8% of the whole population?
Conviction rates based on race my dear.
but I bet if they would start giving the Drug Users the SAME amount of time as the drug sellers... you would see Black men become the minority in prison.I wish the day would come when users go to jail with the same amount of time as sellers.
I think you need to do more research on the topic of Race and convictions,,its hard to have someone understand if they are only willing to look from their own perspective.
You dont want to ACCEPT race plays a part but at the same time you dont want to really investigate to see what is the truth.


I do not speak of what I do not know of. I never once even commented on why there are more blacks in prison, I just responded to a post with a mathematical reason for the higher numbers.
Please tell me where I EVER posted other than that as to why more blacks are in prison. All I ever said was whites get the raw end of the deal at times also, which I can speak of having been personally been through it with my husband and from seeing it happen to other people I know who are white.
Once again, I didn't even really touch on the whole racism in sentencing issue. I spoke about being poor ........ that isn't just a black issue, it is an issue for whites as well.

TedEBare
01-09-2009, 09:04 AM
The fact is 420issues, people are falling thru the cracks. And, there isn't as much help as there once was. In the area where I live, business's are closing left and right. More and more people are being less able to survive. Less and less people have enough to donate to area charities and such. So, the line with people with needs is getting longer while the line of people able to donate is getting shorter.

EDIT: The unemployment rate in Michigan is getting close to 10%. And, I learned in college that the unemployment rates don't take in the people that are still unemployed but have run out of unemployment benefits. It would be interesting know what the TRUE unemployment rate is.

Sorry, didn't mean to take the thread off topic.

xgot420issuesx
01-09-2009, 09:12 AM
The fact is 420issues, people are falling thru the cracks. And, there isn't as much help as there once was. In the area where I live, business's are closing left and right. More and more people are being less able to survive. Less and less people have enough to donate to area charities and such. So, the line with people with needs is getting longer while the line of people able to donate is getting shorter.

I do not argue the fact that times are getting harder and harder by the day. It gets harder day by day for me also. Once again, I do know this.

ant's wife
01-09-2009, 09:13 AM
you are just about correct, however i do happen to live in a neighborhood where our judge is not white and she's a woman she's one of the few judges i know who it don't matter who you are or where you came from you or did what you did you face the consequences on the other hand when we get into trouble there's a possiblity you won't see that judge and if you have to go to any other county judge the typical white man and if your not from the right neighborhood and not white your going down they condiser it as if you "ruined" there peace and quiet and they do discriminate big time!!!!! it's like this a little white girl gets caught with a baggie it has to be a mistake she won't do it again a black man gets caught with a baggie he's a big time drug dealer and that's how it is and probaly unfortently will always be.

Sunflower
01-09-2009, 09:17 AM
As I said in my post, I am not preaching, I HAVE been through it. I DO KNOW what I am talking about. What do you think I tell people I am poor for the fun of it, no because I am honest and I have been there. So unless you misunderstood what I wrote, I do not see how you can say I shouldn't preach unless I have been through it ........


I didnt say you weren't poor. I was saying that the help isnt their the way you say it is.

im his tia
01-09-2009, 09:27 AM
I have soooo many opinions on this one and Babi, once again you sure know how to sir it lol. :thumbsup:

First off, to all of the Obama supporters: He is not your next great white/black hope. If you know anything about Government, he can only do what congress allows him to do. With the economy the way it is and the wars in Iraq and Afghanstan(sp) do you honsetly think prison reform is on his top ten or even twenty list? And least we not forget that he was raised by his WHITE mother and WHITE Grandparents. That being said, for those of you that are sooooo very excited about his black heritage.....He did come from a poor background and he was raised with very little. But, he didnt choose a life of crime as his way of life. He didnt let his being black pull him down. I believe he has degrees from both Princeton and Harvard, all through loans and such...it was not handed to him. Then there is his wife....Same way. She refused to let the statistcs define her. So, if they can do it, why cant everyone else? Not just black people, ALL people? I dont remember who the poster was that said that she has been on the wrong end of a disconnect notice on many occasions. Me too. I have never did anything that would land me in jail. And no, it isnt because i am white. Its because I trust in the LORD and i believe in the adage "This too shall pass". I have been without power,phone and went without water for three weeks once. Im not judging people who commit crimes...that isnt my job. I was just as mad about the last OJ trial as the next guy. But, dont believe for a minute that he was sentenced so harshly because he was black:nono: he was sentenced for payback. Wrong yes, but true.
You all want to talk about racism....ok lets talk.......Y'all remember Rodney King? Look at all the people in California that were acting like common criminals after the police were found not guilty in his beating.....Majority of those people were black. They were looting and beating innocent white people and acting like it was some sort of right of passage. Fast forward a few years.....OJ gets by with DOUBLE MURDER of two white people, did you see white people doing those things????No, i am sorry but you didnt.

I grew up in a colorful community. Poor, but colorful. My mom raised us to love everyone the same, we didnt see color we saw people. My first husband was a Palestinian Muslim and i have a son with him. My husband and i have three kids and he is from Honduras. As a matter of fact, i have NEVER been with a WHITE man. My husband is another example. He came here from Honduras with nothing. When i met him he was making 6.75 an hour. Here were are 13 years later and by HIS hard work and determination we now own a trucking company and two years ago moved in to a brand new house that he built with his own two hands. So, your gonna tell me that he had a better shot than a black man? Im sorry, i dont think so. He barley spoke english 13 years ago. We had everything against us. And we made it. So, why cant others? We didnt get or expect a handout.We didnt sell drugs or rob banks. We scrimped and saved every dollar. And if any of you are saying that black men commit crimes because they dont have a shot at anything else....White people do the same crimes and I dont think they do them just for the thrill of it. Life is hard.....HARD ON EVERYONE! Why cant we all just be one america. Why do people let the color of their skin define them????

And BTW: HE NEVER ONCE THREW UP THE RACE CARD. AS A MATTER OF FACT, WHEN ONE OF "HIS" PEOPLE START TALKING BAD ABOUT THE UNITED STATES HE TELLS THEM "IF YA DONT LIKE IT, GO HOME":thumbsup:

xgot420issuesx
01-09-2009, 09:34 AM
you are just about correct, however i do happen to live in a neighborhood where our judge is not white and she's a woman she's one of the few judges i know who it don't matter who you are or where you came from you or did what you did you face the consequences on the other hand when we get into trouble there's a possiblity you won't see that judge and if you have to go to any other county judge the typical white man and if your not from the right neighborhood and not white your going down they condiser it as if you "ruined" there peace and quiet and they do discriminate big time!!!!! it's like this a little white girl gets caught with a baggie it has to be a mistake she won't do it again a black man gets caught with a baggie he's a big time drug dealer and that's how it is and probaly unfortently will always be.

Well where I come from, "the typical white guy":rolleyes: sentenced my husband ... lol ....... trust me, he didn't get off easy.Please tell me how 6 years ago my husband got 1 year state parole for lying to the cops about his name, that is a fine, at the most probation, but not state parole on a case he never seen a day of state prison on. But that is what the judge did. A white judge. In our county, nothing is taken into consideration unless you are related to someone in the system or you have major money ........ as for girls, whether they are white or black, girls in general get much lighter sentences. Now I know this is not always the case so please don't jump down my back about the comment, but where I come from, it don't matter what color you are, if you are a chick, you aren't doing that much time.

canthelpbutwait
01-09-2009, 09:44 AM
I am not going to go too in depth here as I can see the pot has already been stirred so to speak. But, I will agree with you that RACE does play a big part in sentencing. There are so many stereotypes on being a man of color, that often when they set forth into a court room, the worst is assumed. When a black man winds up back in front of the judge- they act like the EXPECTED that but when a white man does, they wonder if he was on drugs ( which of course they assume a man of color sold to them) Not to mention say it is a drug dealer who gets busted if his girl is white they assume she was manipulated but if it is a woman of color, they assume she was out there wheelen and dealen too. I have lived around many places, been around many people & My opinion is based upon all of that..... you do not have to agree with it, but this comes from stuff i have seen myself.

ant's wife
01-09-2009, 09:45 AM
Well where I come from, "the typical white guy":rolleyes: sentenced my husband ... lol ....... trust me, he didn't get off easy.Please tell me how 6 years ago my husband got 1 year state parole for lying to the cops about his name, that is a fine, at the most probation, but not state parole on a case he never seen a day of state prison on. But that is what the judge did. A white judge. In our county, nothing is taken into consideration unless you are related to someone in the system or you have major money ........ as for girls, whether they are white or black, girls in general get much lighter sentences. Now I know this is not always the case so please don't jump down my back about the comment, but where I come from, it don't matter what color you are, if you are a chick, you aren't doing that much time.


yea your right about gender the only time i really see a judge crack down on a female is if her kids were somehow involved, as for the name i think p.a. as a whole state is getting tired of people lieing bout there name they giving six months around for that instead of just a citation

TedEBare
01-09-2009, 10:00 AM
You know what? I've scraped. I've struggled. I've gone without. But, if my kids or grandkids are hungry...I'm gonna do what I gotta do.

Luv0fHisLife
01-09-2009, 10:23 AM
Definitely does!

comradrahrah
01-09-2009, 10:31 AM
Race certainly plays a huge part in sentencing, employment, housing and everything else there is in this country.

I have said this plenty of times it is illegal to be poor and dangerous to be a black male in this country. 1 out of 4 black males between 17 and 24yrs of age are tied to the penal system, while the other remaining three are drasticly affected by school closings, grant funding and employment! It is often expected for the black males to fail and the justice system continuously beat that stereotypical drum.

Selling meth in my opinion and the meth epidemic that is effecting the majority of white users is not even treated with the same justice as the black crack dealers or crack addicted crimes. There is a huge disparity in the justice system and our government on handling the two.

The American dream is something everyone dreams of; a better life for themselves and when you have a system designed to include one group but yet exclude another you think the excluded group is just going to roll over and say "okay" Hell No! We can't even compare the two when it comes to equality, because it is not equal for minorities in this country. African Americans and Hispanics are not treated fairly, but sadly are expected to work harder, study longer and be more patient for their rewards.

comradrahrah
01-09-2009, 11:06 AM
I am a African American Woman who has raised 3 wonderful bright and intelligent black men. Every African American is not poor, undereducated or unemployed. All black males are not in the joint or looking to go. But for those that are undereducated, unemployed or in prison they are viewed by unknowledgable people as being the majority.

My 19yr old son is one of only 20 AMERICANS picked by Sony to go to Japan and work in a highly prestigeous apprenticeship program. My son is the only African American accepted, to this day all those haters that wasnt good enough to be accepted and their parents have scrutinized his qualifications trying to figure out how this "Black kid" got accepted when they didnt, even had some white dude write the head of the program, saying
"did you know he is Black" and he went on to say
"be careful with him, those people have a tendency to rape women" My son quailified because he is the BEST !!

im his tia~ Please read Obamas book. Obamas beautiful mother did a wonderful wonderful job rasing him to be a Black man. He has lived his entire life recognizing and supporting his Black heritage. His involvement with social awareness programs as it pertains to African Americans is extensivie!! He is the President of the United States the most powerful man in the western world, true congress plays a big part, but please do not hang your hat on congress blocking him because he is Black or that he will abandon what he has fought for just because he needs to appease the haters, because for one I dont think he's like that and two sista Michelle don't look like she play that!

Wobabi
01-09-2009, 11:10 AM
I have soooo many opinions on this one and Babi, once again you sure know how to sir it lol. :thumbsup:

First off, to all of the Obama supporters: He is not your next great white/black hope. If you know anything about Government, he can only do what congress allows him to do.

Wrong,,He can VETO Acts of Congress
With the economy the way it is and the wars in Iraq and Afghanstan(sp) do you honsetly think prison reform is on his top ten or even twenty list? And least we not forget that he was raised by his WHITE mother and WHITE Grandparents.

I think you need to read his Autobiography. He has more time raising his self among Blacks then he did among his White family
That being said, for those of you that are sooooo very excited about his black heritage.....
You are off topic and Your anger about him being Black and President shows

He did come from a poor background and he was raised with very little.


Not true.

But, he didnt choose a life of crime as his way of life. He didnt let his being black pull him down. I believe he has degrees from both Princeton and Harvard, all through loans and such...it was not handed to him. Then there is his wife....Same way. She refused to let the statistcs define her. So, if they can do it, why cant everyone else? Not just black people, ALL people? I dont remember who the poster was that said that she has been on the wrong end of a disconnect notice on many occasions. Me too. I have never did anything that would land me in jail.

It dont matter the issue is if you DO end up in jail you should not serve more time for your RACE
And no, it isnt because i am white. Its because I trust in the LORD and i believe in the adage "This too shall pass". I have been without power,phone and went without water for three weeks once. Im not judging people who commit crimes...that isnt my job. I was just as mad about the last OJ trial as the next guy.

OJ did not do it But why is every one mad at OJ. Because he killed a white woman and he was Black??
How many White men are walking free right now for killing their white wives,,Like the Peterson case and not serving one day in Jail.Where is the Protest there?
But, dont believe for a minute that he was sentenced so harshly because he was black:nono: he was sentenced for payback.
Payback?? Thats not how the JUSTICE system is supposed to work. You get sentenced based on crime not your Predujicial feelings
Wrong yes, but true.
You all want to talk about racism....ok lets talk.......Y'all remember Rodney King? Look at all the people in California that were acting like common criminals after the police were found not guilty in his beating.....Majority of those people were black. They were looting and beating innocent white people and acting like it was some sort of right of passage.

Its called social Uprising ,,Look at Oakland,,They are doing the SAME thing over this unarmed black man being shot by BART police and a LOT of the protestors I saw acting up where WHITE
Fast forward a few years.....OJ gets by with DOUBLE MURDER of two white people, did you see white people doing those things????No, i am sorry but you didnt.

.....HARD ON EVERYONE! Why cant we all just be one america. Why do people let the color of their skin define them????

And BTW: HE NEVER ONCE THREW UP THE RACE CARD. AS A MATTER OF FACT, WHEN ONE OF "HIS" PEOPLE START TALKING BAD ABOUT THE UNITED STATES HE TELLS THEM "IF YA DONT LIKE IT, GO HOME":thumbsup:
So shall we Go back to Africa??,,,sure sounds very familiar. But we been here building this country for a lot longer than the first wave of Immigrants.
We are here to stay!
Still does not give the right for anyone to judge us only on skin but as your post shows it won't stop but we can still fight it!

smoser
01-09-2009, 11:25 AM
What game? Trying to survive? Trying to scrape money from somewhere?
The majority of men in prison are in for non-violent drug crimes.
What would make a man get inthe drug game when there are so many well paying jobs that would hire a black man?


Well paying jobs that everyone now fights for...2,000 people apply for the same job...they want education, experience, personality, and oh yeah let's not forget REFERENCES!! Many of these some of our black men do not possess so it is so easy for them to turn to the streets. I have seen some of their frustrations when they are trying to do what's right, and their preseverance, however the fact still remains that some things will never change included the minds of employers (small and corporate), the minds of the candidate searching for the job, and the mind of many people that could speak on someone's behalf but think it's a waste of time. If one falls through the cracks it is up to us all to pitch in and do our parts. Everyone is entitled to a second chance...Jesus was the only man that walked the earth that was perfect. All of us are only one step away from being in a bad situation and making a wrong turn, hell even when we make the right decisions look at the ones that end up in prison that were right!!:angry: So don't every judge where one is going or where they have been until you walk a full mile in their shoes. I don't condone selling drugs but I honestly see how the system fails so many of our men and they end up back in the streets. Don't buy the BS of can't find a job...I work for a staffing agency and I see the turn downs everyday and the ones that continue to push....you can not eat if you can't make a living. People do desperate things in desperate situations.

im his tia
01-09-2009, 12:38 PM
I am a African American Woman who has raised 3 wonderful bright and intelligent black men. Every African American is not poor, undereducated or unemployed. All black males are not in the joint or looking to go. But for those that are undereducated, unemployed or in prison they are viewed by unknowledgable people as being the majority.

My 19yr old son is one of only 20 AMERICANS picked by Sony to go to Japan and work in a highly prestigeous apprenticeship program. My son is the only African American accepted, to this day all those haters that wasnt good enough to be accepted and their parents have scrutinized his qualifications trying to figure out how this "Black kid" got accepted when they didnt, even had some white dude write the head of the program, saying
"did you know he is Black" and he went on to say
"be careful with him, those people have a tendency to rape women" My son quailified because he is the BEST !!

im his tia~ Please read Obamas book. Obamas beautiful mother did a wonderful wonderful job rasing him to be a Black man. He has lived his entire life recognizing and supporting his Black heritage. His involvement with social awareness programs as it pertains to African Americans is extensivie!! He is the President of the United States the most powerful man in the western world, true congress plays a big part, but please do not hang your hat on congress blocking him because he is Black or that he will abandon what he has fought for just because he needs to appease the haters, because for one I dont think he's like that and two sista Michelle don't look like she play that!

1st and formost...congrats to your son.

What i was saying is this.....omg i cannot believ that you all think i was doggin him....I VOTED 4 BARACK OBAMA. Not for his race,because he was the best MAN for the job. I didnt say congress would block him because he is black. What i meant to say is that he can not say YES if congress says no. Why does she have to be SISTA Michelle? Cause she is black???How bout 1st lady michelle????????Sounds like you are the one that is profiling. I bet if Laura Buch called her "sista" you would be calling her a racist!

im his tia
01-09-2009, 12:48 PM
So shall we Go back to Africa??,,,sure sounds very familiar. But we been here building this country for a lot longer than the first wave of Immigrants.
We are here to stay!
Still does not give the right for anyone to judge us only on skin but as your post shows it won't stop but we can still fight it!


hOW MANY MORE TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THAT I VOTED FOR HIM? AND I AM A LIFE LONG REP?

I DID NOT SAY THE PAYBACK WAS RIGHT.I JUST SAID IT WAS PAYBAK.

YOU CALL IT SOCIAL UPRISING? I CALL IT PEOPLE JUST USING AN UNJUSTICE AS AN EXCUSE TO ROB AND HURT PEOPLE.

So shall we Go back to Africa??,,,sure sounds very familiar. But we been here building this country for a lot longer than the first wave of Immigrants.
We are here to stay!
Still does not give the right for anyone to judge us only on skin but as your post shows it won't stop but we can still fight it!

THAT WAS SO WRONG AND TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT AND YOU KNOW IT BABI. YOU ALL KNOW HOW MOST HISPANICS GET HERE. I WAS TALKING ABOUT MY HUSBANDS RACE AND ONLY HIS RACE. HIS OPINION,NEVER SAID IT WAS MINE. YOU DONT KNOW ME.YOU HAVE NO CLUE. AS FAR AS ME BEING RACIST...YUP THATS ME, MIXED KIDS AND ALL. THE ONLY THING I AM RACIST AGAINST IS HOW SOME PEOPLE BLAME ME FOR THINGS THAT HAPPENED WAY BEFORE I WAS BORN.I CANT HELP WHAT HAPPENED. I CANT HELP THAT I WAS BORN IN THIS SKIN. YOU ARE WAY OFF TARGET ON THIS ONE BABI...CALL ME RACIST,I DONT GIVE TWO SHI*S....I KNOW WHO I AM AND I KNOW WHO I WILL ALWAYS BE.

TedEBare
01-09-2009, 01:46 PM
I'm not sure how this got down to this argument. I do believe that there are still inequalities. I do believe that racism is still running rampant in our culture. However, I do feel some of what tia is saying. We can't change the past. We can only look forward and make it different. I don't blame people for the hurt and anger they feel with how they and their ancestors were hurt in the past. But, making this generation pay for it is not the answer.

comradrahrah
01-09-2009, 02:54 PM
[quote=im his tia;4322510]1st and formost...congrats to your son.
Thank you.
Why does she have to be SISTA Michelle? Cause she is black???
No sista is referred to the female gender, an expression commonly used by african americans when referring all woman in sisterhood, not just black women.
How bout 1st lady michelle????????Sounds like you are the one that is profiling:hmm:

I bet if Laura Buch called her "sista" you would be calling her a racist!
Laura Bush is a woman isnt she? So sure she is qualified to use that word as a term of endearment. I have heard of white women refer to black women and white women as sister or sista that's not racial profiling or a meaning thats exclusive to black women. Actually i never heard of someone would take it that way. Blacks will say sista and Whites say sister same meaning different pronunciation my dear.

Tay28
01-09-2009, 03:08 PM
Race most assuredly plays a role in sentencing from the moment they determine your charges, to the choosing of your jury "peers" (who many times don't have your face AND they inform the jurors of said defendant's race in advance) , to the dangling sentences the judicial systems gives out. There are some crimes that a Black or Latino man is more likely to be charged for than a white man. African American men are hit with longer sentences for drug related crimes than any other ethnicity. An African American is more likely to be detained before and during a trial than any other ethnicity.

Undeniably race most often has a direct impact on the sentencing of an individual and earns a harsher punishment in the mix as well. More outrageous bails are also set for African American offenders. EVERYTHING in the injustice system conspires against delivering justice and equality to Blacks and Latinos before they even enter a court. It begins with RACIAL PROFILING.It's not about making excuses for the individual that commits the crime but it is about justice and equity in the way the legal system works in regards to Black and other non-white ethnicities.

And we can throw up Obama and other successful Blacks as a cause celebre, but the truth is not everyone has access to the same educational opportunities and community resources. Impoverished areas are an environment rife with pitfalls for young Black and Latino males, and often times crimes are one of the ways of surviving. Not all Black and Latino males receive the mentoring and guidance needed, all do not have their mothers and fathers, all do not get a meal everyday or have a decent home. There are some people out here that truly knows what the word poor means, not broke but IMPOVERISHED.

What would your choices be if you are faced with poverty, starvation, violence, death and gloom every day and the places and people you should be able to go to for support are not there? That kind of oppression does not produce Obama. Obama in spite of his humble beginnings AT LEAST had a support system. There are people out here with nothing. Do you know what having nothing produces? The drive to survive can make a monster out of a man. People do what they have to do to survive and get by out here.

It does not make it right, but I damn sure understand how it happens. So yes, for some people there is hope, but for others all there is, is their instinct to survive to the next day regardless of the penalty. If we plan to address the injustice system problem we have to address the entire social, governmental, and economic scope in which we live. That system is corrupt and fails, and therefore produces corrupt individuals and failures. Some people are fortunate enough to get their head above the water with great effort, tenacity and support systems, but for every one who survives, there are that many more that fall victim. Sometimes the victim turns into a violator. Correctional facilities don't correct the "real" problems, and that is what we neglect to understand the "real" problems that produces the madness in front of us.

Wobabi
01-09-2009, 03:13 PM
Race most assuredly plays a role in sentencing from the moment they determine your charges, to the choosing of your jury "peers" (who many times don't have your face AND they inform the jurors of said defendant's race in advance) , to the dangling sentences the judicial systems gives out. There are some crimes that a Black or Latino man is more likely to be charged for than a white man. African American men are hit with longer sentences for drug related crimes than any other ethnicity. An African American is more likely to be detained before and during a trial than any other ethnicity.

Undeniably race most often has a direct impact on the sentencing of an individual and earns a harsher punishment in the mix as well. More outrageous bails are also set for African American offenders. EVERYTHING in the injustice system conspires against delivering justice and equality of Blacks and Latinos before they even enter a court. It begins with RACIAL PROFILING.It's not about making excuses for the individual that commits the crime but it is about justice and equity in the way the legal system works in regards to Black and other non-white ethnicities.

And we can throw up Obama and other successful Blacks as a cause celebre, but the truth is not everyone has access to the same educational opportunities and community resources. Impoverished areas are an environment rife with pitfalls for young Black and Latino males, and often times crimes are one of the ways of surviving. Not all Black and Latino males receive the mentoring and guidance needed, all do not have their mothers and fathers, all do not get a meal everyday or have a decent home. There are some people out here that truly knows what the word poor means, not broke but IMPOVERISHED.

What would your choices be if you are faced with poverty, starvation, violence, death and gloom every day and the places and people you should be able to go to for support are not there? That kind of oppression does not produce Obama. Obama inspite of his humble beginnings AT LEAST had a support systm, there are people out with nothing. Do you know what having nothing produces? The drive to survive can make a monster out of a man. People do what they have to do to survive and get by out here.

It does not make it right, but I damn sure understand how it happens. So yes, for some people there is hope, but for others all there is, is their instinct to survive to the next day regardless of the penalty. If we plan to address the injustice system problem we have to address the entire social, governmental, and economic scope in which we live. That system is corrupt and fails, and therefore produces corrupt individuals and failures. Some people are fortunate enough to get their head above the water with great effort, tenacity and support systems, but for every one who survives, there are that many more that fall victim. Sometimes the victim turns into a violater. Correctional facilitys don't correct the "real" problems, and that is what we neglect to understand the "real" problems that produces the madness in front of us.
EXCELLENT POST!!!!:bow:

yzz aka Flygirlaa alias
01-09-2009, 03:25 PM
My husband grew up in Lousiana and made money for his family walking after the cotton wagons picking up the cotton that fell off. Today he is a doctor. He was one of the few black doctors in his field back when.

I lived in my car and worked at a nursing home eating the left over food to put myself thru aviation school. It took me 3 1/2 years to do an 18 mo program due to funding.

I lived in Oakland and saw people line up around the block for a job at Mcdonalds. I am not talking about something I do not know. And you ladies can get mad at it and call me names behind my back, but I am still gonna say I am sick of the system and frustrated with those who CHOOSE to participate. And unless someone has a bomb strapped to your ass or a gun to your head, it is a choice.

comradrahrah
01-09-2009, 03:33 PM
Tay, once again you are the shining moment:bow:.

Tay28
01-09-2009, 03:36 PM
I Life is hard.....HARD ON EVERYONE! Why cant we all just be one america. Why do people let the color of their skin define them????

Oh I agree life can be hard for a great many people but trust me it's not hard for EVERYONE. Check this out: When the majority of the wealth is held by an elitist capital class, which is usually made off the middle class, working class, and working poor population it spells out a picture of a great disparity in the distribution of wealth in not only this country, but the WORLD.

Oh trust me, somebody's life is much easier than ours, and at our expense too. You must understand capitalism (classism), racism, sexism and agism are symptoms of a problem rooted deeply in the very fabric of this country
The legal documents that are supposed to guarantee, hold and protect the rights of you and I, was not originally authored for the benefit of Blacks and other non-White ethnicities. This country was constructed out of a male dominated White power structure. Economical gains and losses are ruled by the hegemony --- which consists of mostly the White and wealthy.

Some white people don't get it---that by their incident of birth and being born White they are being guaranteed ease of access to resources that a Black person does not automatically get. (And this is not to say it's just so easy for White people but it is a damn sight easier than being a Black person gaining access to said resources) When I am born and grow up in this country a different set of rules applies despite what our Constitution spells out. Imbalance has existed since this country decided to use people of color to build it's wealth, and keep it's foot on the neck of non-Whites until this very day. It's not whips and chains anymore, but screwed up policies, biased justice systems, and institutional racism.

America works off the exploitation of Blacks, Latinos and the POOR period. Racism is actually just classism for dummies. It's another way to sub-divide and conquer. And as long as White privilege exists and as long as White people overall do not see and admit this, there will always be a disparity in equality between them and us people of color.

None of us asked for this system to be in place, or to be born to a particular race. But by God, I will not have someone questioning why I choose to define myself by my skin color---it's not skin color but it is my heritage, my birthright and my culture---and why should I not be proud of that because it has helped to shape the woman and person I am. Being color blind IS a form of racism. My difference should not be considered a stumbling block, but something unique ---that allows me to be accepted into my society regardless of how it differs from another person.

Me being different is not the problem, it becomes a problem to the dominate population who refuses to understand or accept it. Differences only become problems when people are expected to ASSIMILATE.

Tay28
01-09-2009, 03:49 PM
Again, some of us have a greater set of choices than others. Some of us have the tenacity to turn away from the wrong choices even then, but trust me there are brutal circumstances that can back a person up against the wall. You don't understand that, and perhaps that is a blessing that you have never been in that position to even know. So I don't expect you to understand.

My husband grew up in Lousiana and made money for his family walking after the cotton wagons picking up the cotton that fell off. Today he is a doctor. He was one of the few black doctors in his field back when.

I lived in my car and worked at a nursing home eating the left over food to put myself thru aviation school. It took me 3 1/2 years to do an 18 mo program due to funding.

I lived in Oakland and saw people line up around the block for a job at Mcdonalds. I am not talking about something I do not know. And you ladies can get mad at it and call me names behind my back, but I am still gonna say I am sick of the system and frustrated with those who CHOOSE to participate. And unless someone has a bomb strapped to your ass or a gun to your head, it is a choice.

comradrahrah
01-09-2009, 03:55 PM
[quote=yzz;4322922]My husband grew up in Lousiana and made money for his family walking after the cotton wagons picking up the cotton that fell off. Today he is a doctor. He was one of the few black doctors in his field back when.

I lived in my car and worked at a nursing home eating the left over food to put myself thru aviation school. It took me 3 1/2 years to do an 18 mo program due to funding.

I lived in Oakland and saw people line up around the block for a job at Mcdonalds. I am not talking about something I do not know. And you ladies can get mad at it and call me names behind my back, but I am still gonna say I am sick of the system and frustrated with those who CHOOSE to participate. And unless someone has a bomb strapped to your ass or a gun to your head, it is a choice.

Why are you comparing your husband and i"m assuming he is black, to this equation? We are taling about Race and Sentencing along with the reasons for the desparities, the topic is not about your opinions on black and hispanic cultures, which you seem to want to blame for the problem. Professional minorities are not the topic .

Its this type of ideology that is the reason for the injustice. Unless an minority has a high profile career title (Doctor, lawyer..etc) then and only then can a minority call themself sucessful...not everyday working people such as middle class minorities have a right to call themself sucessful enough to deserve the recognition of being treated with fairness without fear.:rolleyes:

GracexoxoChub
01-09-2009, 04:01 PM
It's only a choice when you have other options.
I'm not African American, but my husband is. He is not in jail for a non-violent crime but being around him and his family goes to show that all people that commit crimes don't do it because there lazy and want the easy way. Most of the time it's a choice of whether or not your going to let you baby go hungry or go do something about it.

As far as race and sentecing... In my perspective it does play a HUGE role. My husband killed two people. Two white people who a year before almost killed me. Sentencing on them was very light because of my lifestyle and the judge didn't deam me an important enough person for them to go to jail. They got fines and 6 month probation.
Turn around and my husband did what they did to me only worse and he got LWOP. Is it because he's black? He had no criminal history. It was a very racist town it happened in and to this day I'm certain it's because the judge didn't like AA's.

It's not something to argue about. Facts are facts and unless you've lived through it you can only look and judge from the outside, in.

JMHO as always.
Grace

yzz aka Flygirlaa alias
01-09-2009, 04:16 PM
Again, some of us have a greater set of choices than others. Some of us have the tenacity to turn away from the wrong choices even then, but trust me there are brutal circumstances that can back a person up against the wall. You don't understand that, and perhaps that is a blessing that you have never been in that position to even know. So I don't expect you to understand.

why dont you think I understand that? I grew up in El Paso Tx in the poorest part, just a stones throw from Juarez Mexico. I know about the drug game. I know about crime. I know about murder. I saw my first murder at 5 and even had my girlfriend shot and killed standing right beside me when I was 15. Had another get kidnapped and forced into prostitution at 15 too. They killed her and dumped he in the desert when they were done with her.

I also had offers to sell drugs, do drug runs (aviation school was rife with it), you name it. I have watched my family, friends and co-workers go down. My nephew is doing 90 years. Yet, because I appear white (even thought I am of a black and white background), I just dont know anything.

I wasnt born into anything. We were poor. Period. My first memory is of laying in bed with my sister and two cousin, hungry. When I went to school, the counselor wouldnt even tell me how to get into college. She told me to get a job. I am the ONLY one in my family who is middle class. The others are barely hanging on, working class or in poverty.

I get sick of watching the men I love and care about go to prison for decades. My family. My black family. That I know nothing about because my skin looks with like my fathers. Lord.

LeBeau
01-09-2009, 04:18 PM
....This isn't really going well at all.
Enough with the personal bickering and snide little attacks.

If you have some thought, question or insight about how race might be a factor in sentencing, please share it.

If what you want is to tell someone else that they can't understand your perspective because they're not poor, not rich, not black, not white, not green with orange stripes.... skip it, please.

Yes, race, economic strata and the geographical region in which an individual is raised are factors that strongly mold the perspectives of most people, and yes. it can be difficult to look at life through someone else's eyes, but there's no value to be had from barking at that knot by posting "You don't get it" or "Where do you get off saying I don't get it?"

Please stick to disecting the topic, not one another.

yzz aka Flygirlaa alias
01-09-2009, 04:20 PM
[quote=yzz;4322922]My husband grew up in Lousiana and made money for his family walking after the cotton wagons picking up the cotton that fell off. Today he is a doctor. He was one of the few black doctors in his field back when.

I lived in my car and worked at a nursing home eating the left over food to put myself thru aviation school. It took me 3 1/2 years to do an 18 mo program due to funding.

I lived in Oakland and saw people line up around the block for a job at Mcdonalds. I am not talking about something I do not know. And you ladies can get mad at it and call me names behind my back, but I am still gonna say I am sick of the system and frustrated with those who CHOOSE to participate. And unless someone has a bomb strapped to your ass or a gun to your head, it is a choice.

Why are you comparing your husband and i"m assuming he is black, to this equation? We are taling about Race and Sentencing along with the reasons for the desparities, the topic is not about your opinions on black and hispanic cultures, which you seem to want to blame for the problem. Professional minorities are not the topic .

Its this type of ideology that is the reason for the injustice. Unless an minority has a high profile career title (Doctor, lawyer..etc) then and only then can a minority call themself sucessful...not everyday working people such as middle class minorities have a right to call themself sucessful enough to deserve the recognition of being treated with fairness without fear.:rolleyes:
If professional minorities are not the topic, then why did you bring your son who is going to Japan into it? Please. You are just mad because I am not going to enable criminal behavior anymore. I am sick of it. Got my fill a while ago. I still have people and family inside and I do support reform, but I am not supporting the behavior anymore.

comradrahrah
01-09-2009, 04:29 PM
Well meaning people want to draw knowledge based on their knowledge as told to them from someone elses experience.

Being married to a minority does not quailify you to debate others about the experience...I'm sorry it doesnt.

Take for example if you never suffered a loss of a child but your best friend has, then a co-worker says to you the reasons for them having a hard from the loss of their child is A B and C. You can't argue your point as your personal experience based on your best friends experience as being told to you. You will never say in a million years "get over it because my best friend has; and her grief was far worse than yours" you will never lower your standards to do...at least I pray you wouldnt.

I am Black (proudly) everyday and I'm constantly reminded of it everyday. If I go to upscale stores, security personel and cameras follow me until I leave. I'm not a thief, I never stolen anything in my life, nothing about me says thief, yet I am scrutinized and watched as if the color of my skin says "fear me". No unless you know the Black experience first hand and not through the "words" of another, then you can never truly know what its like to even speak about being black or hispanic. Speak on it yes, knowledge about being black; no.

Mark2008
01-09-2009, 04:34 PM
Show me one society, anywhere in the world, where minorities are treated the same as the ruling class. All throughout history, whatever group is in power is distrustful of others whom they see as a threat. Those who are in power are going to do everything they can to stay in power.

Actually, minorities get treated better in the US and Canada than most other places. If I were to pack up and move to China, Nigeria or South America, do you think I would be treated equally? I certainly wouldn't expect it.

Among large and developed countries, none has the racial diversity found in the U.S., for better or worse. We've been sold the virtues of diversity for so long that we just accept it without questioning. The issues discussed here suggest that maybe we'd be better in a less diverse society, where these differences didn't play such a role. That's part of what I meant when I said that America is paying the price for the sins of its forefathers.... particularly slavery. I'm not people of differing backgrounds were designed to live side by side. But yet the choices our forefathers have made have placed us into this very unnatural situation.

comradrahrah
01-09-2009, 04:37 PM
[quote=yzz;4323053][quote=comradrahrah;4322994]
If professional minorities are not the topic, then why did you bring your son who is going to Japan into it? Please. You are just mad because I am not going to enable criminal behavior anymore. I am sick of it. Got my fill a while ago. I still have people and family inside and I do support reform, but I am not supporting the behavior anymore.

Baby girl, my son is not a professional yet..but thank you for recognizing.

Secondly, how can you gadge that I am mad? I don't know you to be mad at you. If I were mad at you I would have ignored you and your post. My skin is to thick for some stranger opinions about crime, minorities or even me to get me mad.

Sorry I obviously upset you to the point that you have to throw your hands up I honestly thought we were having an intellectual dialogue, sorry you wont be apart that any longer.

yzz aka Flygirlaa alias
01-09-2009, 04:43 PM
[quote=yzz;4323053][quote=comradrahrah;4322994]
If professional minorities are not the topic, then why did you bring your son who is going to Japan into it? Please. You are just mad because I am not going to enable criminal behavior anymore. I am sick of it. Got my fill a while ago. I still have people and family inside and I do support reform, but I am not supporting the behavior anymore.

Baby girl, my son is not a professional yet..but thank you for recognizing.

Secondly, how can you gadge that I am mad? I don't know you to be mad at you. If I were mad at you I would have ignored you and your post. My skin is to thick for some stranger opinions about crime, minorities or even me to get me mad.

Sorry I obviously upset you to the point that you have to throw your hands up I honestly thought we were having an intellectual dialogue, sorry you wont be apart that any longer.

I assumed you are mad because you are reading stuff into my post that wasnt even in there. No were am I making any judement against black culture. You will have to point that one out to me. Criminal culture, yes. As I already said, got my stomach full of making excuse for criminal conduct (regardless of the color of the persons skin) a loooong time ago.

LeBeau
01-09-2009, 04:54 PM
What part of this was not clear?
....This isn't really going well at all.
Enough with the personal bickering and snide little attacks.

If you have some thought, question or insight about how race might be a factor in sentencing, please share it.

If what you want is to tell someone else that they can't understand your perspective because they're not poor, not rich, not black, not white, not green with orange stripes.... skip it, please.

Yes, race, economic strata and the geographical region in which an individual is raised are factors that strongly mold the perspectives of most people, and yes. it can be difficult to look at life through someone else's eyes, but there's no value to be had from barking at that knot by posting "You don't get it" or "Where do you get off saying I don't get it?"

Please stick to disecting the topic, not one another.

Wobabi
01-09-2009, 04:59 PM
Show me one society, anywhere in the world, where minorities are treated the same as the ruling class. All throughout history, whatever group is in power is distrustful of others whom they see as a threat. Those who are in power are going to do everything they can to stay in power.

Actually, minorities get treated better in the US and Canada than most other places. If I were to pack up and move to China, Nigeria or South America, do you think I would be treated equally? I certainly wouldn't expect it.

Among large and developed countries, none has the racial diversity found in the U.S., for better or worse. We've been sold the virtues of diversity for so long that we just accept it without questioning. The issues discussed here suggest that maybe we'd be better in a less diverse society, where these differences didn't play such a role. That's part of what I meant when I said that America is paying the price for the sins of its forefathers.... particularly slavery. I'm not people of differing backgrounds were designed to live side by side. But yet the choices our forefathers have made have placed us into this very unnatural situation.
Mark ONCE AGAIN,,you hit the nail on the head!
It just floors me that we are on a prison web site where YES the majority of men in Prison are Minorities BUT YET when ever we try to discuss WHO WHAT WHY of them being there,,,Everyone wants to sweep it under the rug as if it should be shame on them for getting locked up OR we are just barking up a race tree.
There should be tons of threads discussing this issue!!
We can support Black men when they are in relationships in Prison but dealing/discussing the issues of the unfair practices of the Legal System and the Racist sentencing guidelines against them are Taboo.:rolleyes:
I am not going to stop talking about these issues so I am glad to know there are some I can have dialogue with about this.
Thanks to You again!:thumbsup:

TedEBare
01-09-2009, 05:06 PM
I believe that there are things in place to TRY to make a difference. Such as, scholarships based on race and gender, etc. However, I don't necessarily believe this is the answer. Why? This is just another way of pointing the finger at someone being different. Until we can turn in our paperwork without having to answer the "race" question or have someone make up an excuse to not hire someone that they secretly dislike due to race, the problem isn't "fixed".

Someone brought up the issue of being followed around in a store based on color. It reminded me of my oldest daughter coming home from the gas station/convenience store all upset in the 9th grade. We live in a VERY small community in the northern part of the lower peninsula of Michigan. We are an EXTREMELY white community. And, we are caucasian. My daughter was followed around in the store, very openly, until she left. This woman knew my daughter. Had known her most of her life. Why was she followed? She was dressed "Goth". I gotta tell ya. You couldn't find a more honest girl. If I wouldn't have been so damned mad, I'd have been laughing my a$$ off!

MissMarissaOX
01-09-2009, 05:22 PM
Oh boy, I'm gonna take a stab at this post. There was a lot of info given that I want to comment on,, so bare with me!

Race aside for a second, I'm going to have to disagree about being poor & just having to "ASK" for help. My aunt has worked since she's 14 years old- and has only become unemployed recently due to her health concerns. She applied for disability- she's still waiting for a response, and there's a certain time slot that you have to be unemployed for.. before you can even be considered. During this period of time- she's applied for medical assistance. No food stamps, no cash assistance- just medical. She has progressive multiple sclerosis, COPD, lymphedema (sp?), and a history of DVT. I can't even TOUCH on how much she owes in medical expenses... but she keeps gettin' denied for medical... where's the justice in that? And she still has a son to feed.... and a house to keep up, or try to anyway,, so i'm gonna have to disagree on the help part. The people that are runnin' this country don't give a $hit about anyone else,, as long as their families have a house to live in, food to eat, & medical to keep 'em healthy.

Ok, back to the OP,, as far as race is concerned... I was raised with a mix of black friends and white friends. My best friends are black people.. and I have a few exes that are black as well. I'm not gonna sit here & claim that I know how it feels to be BLACK & struggle in this country,, because I don't know the first thing about it. I've personally experienced situations where race played a role in how you were treated, how you were convicted, etc etc.

There's one specific situation that I can recall.... me & a group of friends were hangin' out on a porch of a friend, me & this one dude were the only white people in a group of maybe 10-15 folks. A beat cop stopped at the porch,, and shortly after, another cop car pulled up. All of the guys were searched... When a female cop showed up, I was searched.. I didn't have my regular ID on me, so I showed my college ID,, she asked me what I went to school for.. and at the time, it was pre-law with a minor in Psych. She even sat there & told me,, that I was too good for these people,, nice white girls like me shouldn't be mixed up with these "kinds" of people. In the end, two dudes ended up gettin arrested (one black, one white)... neither of them had been in trouble before, etc etc... the only difference was the color of their skin. Needless to say, guess who got tried, convicted, & sentenced up state for a few different counts of possession & dealin'? Not the white guy.

That's not the only time I've witnessed it, so I most definitely think that race plays a factor in EVERYTHING.. from bein' arrested & unfair sentencing... right down to employment... schooling, etc.

thugwife
01-09-2009, 05:31 PM
I wasnt even gonna touch this, but I must say that my husband is white and got a raw freaking deal. 25 f****ng years for trafficking, his total score didnt even equal an ounce, so dont tell me shiz about race factors. Its damn near about the counsel that you can afford. If you are a baller and can pay a pricy attorney, you likely to get a great deal (not in all cases). I heard someone speak about meth, YEAH its a predominately white people drug (if you will) here in KY they are TRYING to make any meth involvement mandatory LIFE SENTENCE.

I heard someone speak of OJ, he was GUILTY beyond a reasonable doubt, I seen the trial I read the book after the fact, why do I think he got off? Because he had MONEY. Nothing else. They always told me 3 things not to speak on and thats politics, religion and race...........

Here the prisons are so overcrowded with drug offenders dealers and users. They are adding a Class E felony to the mix. That is punishable by 1-3 (maybe 2 years, cant remember). There is always someone that makes excuses for bad behavior. Truth is, race wouldnt even come into play had a crime not been committed in the first place, ya dig?

TedEBare
01-09-2009, 07:43 PM
I wasnt even gonna touch this, but I must say that my husband is white and got a raw freaking deal. 25 f****ng years for trafficking, his total score didnt even equal an ounce, so dont tell me shiz about race factors. Its damn near about the counsel that you can afford. If you are a baller and can pay a pricy attorney, you likely to get a great deal (not in all cases). I heard someone speak about meth, YEAH its a predominately white people drug (if you will) here in KY they are TRYING to make any meth involvement mandatory LIFE SENTENCE.

I heard someone speak of OJ, he was GUILTY beyond a reasonable doubt, I seen the trial I read the book after the fact, why do I think he got off? Because he had MONEY. Nothing else. They always told me 3 things not to speak on and thats politics, religion and race...........

Here the prisons are so overcrowded with drug offenders dealers and users. They are adding a Class E felony to the mix. That is punishable by 1-3 (maybe 2 years, cant remember). There is always someone that makes excuses for bad behavior. Truth is, race wouldnt even come into play had a crime not been committed in the first place, ya dig?

Really? Seems to me they couldn't prove that. You remember why? Cuz, there was a racist cop in the bunch that had to admit that he had set black men up before. That cast a WHOLE BUNCH of doubt in for me.

thugwife
01-09-2009, 08:46 PM
Really? Seems to me they couldn't prove that. You remember why? Cuz, there was a racist cop in the bunch that had to admit that he had set black men up before. That cast a WHOLE BUNCH of doubt in for me.


Not so much of that, I seen a documentary on Henry Lee the asian (whatever he was, forensic scientist or whatever, its been so long I dont remember what he is) but he is a world renowned (sp?) in what he does. I dont remember ANY specifics of the case, because it really didnt concern me PLUS it has been more than a decade since it happened so I am a lil foggy. I DO know that Henry Lee said WITHOUT a DOUBT that he was guilty as sin. How did he get off? MONEY. Now, remember John Gotti? Shit, that man knocked all kinds of lights out in his time and they called him teflon Don, why? Cause he had money--money buys freedom in this country contrary to popular belief. He had a laundry list of bodies, but his charges never stuck. When the man died (I would have to google it because I am unclear) I believe he was in prison over maybe bribery or some foolishness, I am pretty certain he didnt have a murder wrap on him (now I may be wrong) I cant do the googling because all my post will be wasted.... Now, I am not going in a all out war over OJ because that is not what this post is about, K?

I know nothing about the case, and quite frankly I got tired of it (at a young age) consuming every damn tv channel it was, back then. THAT I can remember.........

Chellie
01-09-2009, 08:59 PM
What game? Trying to survive? Trying to scrape money from somewhere?
The majority of men in prison are in for non-violent drug crimes.
What would make a man get inthe drug game when there are so many well paying jobs that would hire a black man?
:thumbsup:I couldn't have said it better myself!!!:thumbsup:

im his tia
01-09-2009, 09:28 PM
As far as OJ goes...I was on maternity leave for most of his trial. I watched the high speed chase too. And even though i am WHITE I wanted him to be found not guilty soooooo bad. I grew up in the 70's and 80's and he was one of my heros. Up until the end,even though i knew in my head he was guilty, my heart was begging for him to be free and for none of it to be true.Robert kardashian (god rest his soul) even knew it. Johnny Cochran (rest his soul too)knew it too. After the trial was over, and the gag orders lifted and the interviews were going like crazy...i finally listened. There was a mountain of evidence against him. Then he had the audacity to say in his civil trial that he never hit his wife:eek: They have it all it all on tape.
OJ got off because 75% of the jury was of the same race PERIOD! So, please dont insult me. OJ also bought his freedom...money can get you anywhere.

OK enough obout OJ for me.

You all want to say that I have no right to speak about race>>>>>>Then what makes you all experts? Because i am not black i shouldnt have an opinion? I have bi-racial children. One of my son's is by a palestinian muslim. My son has the SAME name as one of the 9/11 hijackers....He was 7 at the time. He was at scool the following day and a kid made everyone aware of the name.....He was made so much fun of. He wanted to quit school at 7!!!!!! But, i made him face it. And he is proud of both heritages.

And i beg to differ with whom ever said that I as a white woman could call a black woman SISTA! Big lie and you know it.

Gotta hand it to OP, you sucked me in once again with one of your SURE TO BE CONTROVERSIAL(sp) POSTS! But like said all the others before me....I will speak my mind:thumbsup: No matter if you are all the colors of the rainbow!

Maya2007
01-09-2009, 10:34 PM
Here is what I think:

Race does seem to play a role in our judicial system. However.... I think the real problem in this world is GREED, PRIDE, and CONTROL/POWER regardless of what color your skins are. I can really see how someone can be tempted to commit a crime in whatever they are deprived in. But then again that just shows lack of will on their part. Its hard but can be done and I can understand how some people end up behind bars for that reason. It's ashame how this world turn into.

MissMarissaOX
01-09-2009, 11:48 PM
Truth is, race wouldnt even come into play had a crime not been committed in the first place, ya dig?

I do have to agree on that one. :thumbsup:

MizJohnson
01-10-2009, 12:06 AM
Exactly and why are blacks 85% of the FEderal prison population but they are less than 8% of the whole population?
Conviction rates based on race my dear.
but I bet if they would start giving the Drug Users the SAME amount of time as the drug sellers... you would see Black men become the minority in prison.I wish the day would come when users go to jail with the same amount of time as sellers.
I think you need to do more research on the topic of Race and convictions,,its hard to have someone understand if they are only willing to look from their own perspective.
You dont want to ACCEPT race plays a part but at the same time you dont want to really investigate to see what is the truth.

If one is being sentenced for using, and the other for selling, then that doesn't mean that they are sentenced based on their race. They want to put sellers behind bars because they are distributing to more than one person - obviously. The user buys and it stops there; the seller buys and it continues on...

I'm not saying there isn't racism in the system, but I'm saying that if your only argument is that sellers get more time than buyers....

LovesDesign
01-10-2009, 12:10 AM
Light skinned brother, look like John Legend :p

He's serving 10 yrs for a "supposed" theft of a $65 CD player!!

$65??!?!?!

Let a Caucasian do that and see if he loses 10 yrs of his life!

How can we trust a system that still considers a black person 3/5 of a human being? It boggles my mind.

MizJohnson
01-10-2009, 12:19 AM
[quote=im his tia;4322510]1st and formost...congrats to your son.
Thank you.
Why does she have to be SISTA Michelle? Cause she is black???
No sista is referred to the female gender, an expression commonly used by african americans when referring all woman in sisterhood, not just black women.
How bout 1st lady michelle????????Sounds like you are the one that is profiling:hmm:

I bet if Laura Buch called her "sista" you would be calling her a racist!
Laura Bush is a woman isnt she? So sure she is qualified to use that word as a term of endearment. I have heard of white women refer to black women and white women as sister or sista that's not racial profiling or a meaning thats exclusive to black women. Actually i never heard of someone would take it that way. Blacks will say sista and Whites say sister same meaning different pronunciation my dear.

It's refreshing to see you say this as I call many of my close girlfriends - black, white, hispanic, and asian - sista, sister, or sis from time to time. BUT I will be very surprised if none of the black women here use that term ONLY for black woman. I won't be surprised, however, if they won't admit it right now.

MizJohnson
01-10-2009, 12:20 AM
Light skinned brother, look like John Legend :p

He's serving 10 yrs for a "supposed" theft of a $65 CD player!!

$65??!?!?!

Let a Caucasian do that and see if he loses 10 yrs of his life!

How can we trust a system that still considers a black person 3/5 of a human being? It boggles my mind.

Where was he? Any previous charges?
Again, I am not saying that race never plays a part, but if this man had no previous charges and came correct, then that judge needs to be committed.....

tibs
01-10-2009, 12:28 AM
Although I certainly respect the position of the moderator to not turn this thread into a personal attack space, some comments cannot go unchallenged... If you truly seek to not be an enabler,... understand the issue at hand, acknowledge the inequalities that exist, and seek to eliminate the injustice... An important factor to consider is that this is not a competition of tragedies, certainly there are unfortunate ramifications and societal consequences that exist because of one's socio-economic status, working class and even more effected (the barely working or underclass), the uneducated or undereducated, the homeless, the isolated, the elderly, the disabled, bias and discrimination for any target group that defies the cultural norms of the ruling class and unfortunately the truly marginalized often spill over into multiplicity of such categories. But this was a specific question about the unfair sentencing practices for people of colour. It should not be difficult to at least agree that if we isolate this one issue and look at the statistical proof the undefiable fact is that in fact... unfair sentencing practices for people of colour cannot be reasonably disputed. Allowing yourself to be a useful ally not wanting to enable... then please know that denile... in essence will continue to enable the injustices that are.

joetnymedic
01-10-2009, 12:29 AM
I am white. I have been involved in the system both on the state and federal levels although many years apart. Quite frankly I do see race as well as people who can not afford a good lawyer who are the ones who are most likely to serve time. Statistics don't lie. look at the numbers of black, spanish and other minorities as opposed to whites incarcerated. in addition look at the numbers as far as people who had public defenders as opposed to those who had private counsel that are incarcerated. You will find a greater number of them locked up as opposed to the client that could afford to pay for counsel, pay a fine and get probation. Not all public defenders are bad. The atty that handled my federal case was awesome and really did care. however, and especially with state cases, these public defenders are extremely overburdened with cases and quite frankly look to make plea bargains as a way to lessen the load. I'll give 2 examples related directly to me. First. I had a state case with a public defender in the beginning. The PD came to me with an offer of 2 years for something I indeed did not do. My wife at the time actually told the Police that it was in fact her that had committed the crime and they still busted me instead, because I had a record (this was for putting the corner of a cooler through a window at the apt complex we lived at when the door slammed shut on us). For that happening i was charged with breach of peace, criminal mischief and 2 other charges which I forget - it was 1986 so i'm a bit foggy. Anyway, i was like i am not doing 2 years for something i didn't do. my wife even told the pd she did it, the prosecutor didn't want to know anything and the pd didn't want to fight. so i swallowed my pride and borrowed the money from both my father and father-in-law and got a paid attorney. 1st time back to court, poof, charges nolled (not prosecuted - dropped). There was another PD in milford court back in the day (also the 80's - and yes until my fed charge last time i got in trouble was the 80's) anyway, this pd's nickname was Gerry the train conductor and it was all aboard the train bound for the prison with this guy. I can not even tell you how many people he sold down the toilet in his day. Now here's the kicker. he went from being a pd to being a prosecutor in the same courthouse to being a judge which he is now. You figure it out. talk about conflict of interest. so that's how things work in CT and i'm sure plenty of other states. if you're a minority or poor, and get busted, plan on doing some time. that's the sad fact and unfortunately the truth.

joe

TympanicHippo
01-10-2009, 12:38 AM
I am so tired of hearing about race. It doesn't matter to me one whit. I am tired of whites being scared of any other color, I'm tired of people of color judging me because I'm pale.

I take an idividual as an individual and unless they do something to hurt me then they are fine with me regardless.

I guess I'm one of the lucky few that don't see color, I see a person.

I am glad that we have a person who is of color as our new President, finally this country has seemed to live up to it's original oath. I fear for him and his family also as there is still horrible racism simmering under the surface of unity.

I am glad that there is now the opportunity for the black community to now acknowlege the part of the African Kings and Queens in the slave trade and that there is now no reason for any excuse not to do well in society.

I am glad that there is no reason for any American of any color, race, gender or sexual orientation not to run for at the least local office and at the best national office as did President Elect Obama.

There is no excuse for any of us now is there? We can't say it's because of our color or our background that we haven't had any other choice.

Double edged sword. A black man will be in office so how can anyone say poeple of color aren't allowed a voice when the ultimate voice for the United States of America has a black man as our leader who I fully support.

Damn, the race card just got a lot less playable didn't it?

MizJohnson
01-10-2009, 12:45 AM
I do believe that minorities are often treated unfairly, but I believe it has more to do with their level of education, or the way they talk, and the amount of money that they have.
I can say that those judges really TRIED for my husband. He is a black man with no money, but he knows how to dress and how to talk to people in authority - without losing all respect for himself. They really did try with him, but eventually enough was enough.

I think it ALWAYS has more to do with MONEY and ATTITUDE than it does race. These judges are educated, grown men. They are not the very TINY minority of racist white power men that hide in the remote trailer parks... I agree that there is racism in America, and it goes in ALL different directions, but I definitely think it's safe to say that the judges have been around long enough to realize that people are people and you can't judge them based solely on color. This is in most cases, but not all. And it goes both ways... as in the case with the woman whose son (minority) got more time than the other kid (white) - you could say it was racism, but the judge was black... and so was the white kid's lawyer. So what happened there? It could be so many things... it could even be justice - doesn't sound like it, though. You can't always tell a person's motives.

The judges also see a lot more than we see. They know statistics better than all the sistas throwin them out in here. They know how a typical educated black man will act, and they know how a typical educated white man will act, and they know what will typically be the best way to deal with those men - whether it be to make an example out of them, punish them to scare them out of whatever they're doing, or whatever.

There is a problem with racism for sure, but it comes from MANY more places than the judicial system, and ALL the places will have to stop before it goes away.

As for enabling, it does need to stop. "The heart is desperately wicked and who can know it?" -- I always say a drug addict can know it, or a starving person can know it. You never know what you might do... But sometimes it takes something different from one person to another. Starvation might cause one person to kill, but for another it could take betrayal...

HOWEVER, I know that where I come from, and where I am now, the vast majority of the guys (black, white, and hispanic) who are selling drugs out there could be doing many other things. There are soup kitchens and emergency food centers and all kinds of places... or they could go to church and ask somebody for help. And I don't care who you are if you will keep going back to that one employer with a smile on your face and some real determination, you WILL get a job. I have a white uncle who couldn't get hired at this certain place for years until he found out we have indian in us, checked the "other" box, and got the job! (speaking of which whoever said that we need to stop having to check that box is SO RIGHT)

Most of the guys selling drugs are selling drugs so they can sing with the hip-hop music and look cool - bottom line. And that is the case with MANY - black, white, you-name-it. Yes, there are places where it seems almost necessary, but the majority of the time there is something else that could be done. I do not enable because like someone else said - unless someone straps a bomb to you or sticks a gun to your head, you have a choice. 'Cept for me - I got a choice with the gun to my head, too. But I'm just hard-headed like that ;)

GracexoxoChub
01-10-2009, 01:23 AM
I think it ALWAYS has more to do with MONEY and ATTITUDE than it does race.


Always is a strong word.
My husband had a great defense team that I payed for out of my pocket. While we may not have made our money legally at the time we had lots of it. How we made our money was not reflected on him. He had no hand in it then or now. He is a nice person and well educated and is respectful. But he is black and in a town where blacks get crosses burned in their yards regardless of their status in society...

It's not about playing the race card. It's about seeing things for what they are. We can make excuses for people of other races being treated unfairly but the fact that we have to make excuses at all, says something, doesn't it?
Now, I'm not saying it's okay for anyone to commit a crime regardless of their race. I am saying that's it is not okay for a person to be sentenced harsher or more lenient because of their race.

MizJohnson
01-10-2009, 01:30 AM
Yes, you're right... lol... I can't even believe I said "ALWAYS" lol... Maybe that's my cue to go to bed?

Ok, so I think it USUALLY has more to do with MONEY and ATTITUDE.....

But if you say that your money came from illegal means, then wouldn't it be true that he was punished justly?

I'm just saying that I think it happens a lot less than some people want to act like it happens... I've heard a lot of white people say they can't get a job because of all the "equal opportunity" stuff, but I know a lot of it is overexaggerated.

GracexoxoChub
01-10-2009, 01:50 AM
My illegal activities, not his. (Not proud of them btw) What he did he did for me but he did the crime all by himself so it shouldn't have mattered...:confused:

I dunno. I believe he was sentenced unfairly because of his race. Many agree with me and I'm hoping thats enough to make a difference.

Grace

thugwife
01-10-2009, 08:15 AM
Light skinned brother, look like John Legend :p

He's serving 10 yrs for a "supposed" theft of a $65 CD player!!

$65??!?!?!

Let a Caucasian do that and see if he loses 10 yrs of his life!

How can we trust a system that still considers a black person 3/5 of a human being? It boggles my mind.


Well, I have to comment on this one. My man is doing 25 YEARS over trafficking. Now, it may be drugs not a CD player but do YOU think they seen his white skin when they sentenced him to more time than a freaking murderer????? I dont know any rapist or murderer here in my state that got 25 freaking years and you BEST BELIEVE that he has done DAY for DAY. Been in almost 12 flat. You tell me?

irshnrse
01-10-2009, 08:28 AM
thug-My husband is not white and was facing DEATH for trafficking in federal court. He received 360 months...no parole in the feds. Plus 20 years in the state for a piece of flippin plastic. We wish he had just gotten 25 state years. Race absolutely plays a part in sentencing. White folks on the exact same indictment received 9 years while the other "lower level" black folks received 19 years, explain that. Everyone had PDs.

Tay28
01-10-2009, 08:45 AM
[quote=comradrahrah;4322858]

It's refreshing to see you say this as I call many of my close girlfriends - black, white, hispanic, and asian - sista, sister, or sis from time to time. BUT I will be very surprised if none of the black women here use that term ONLY for black woman. I won't be surprised, however, if they won't admit it right now.

Does that really matter or is it even relevant to the topic?

Tay28
01-10-2009, 08:47 AM
Although I certainly respect the position of the moderator to not turn this thread into a personal attack space, some comments cannot go unchallenged... If you truly seek to not be an enabler,... understand the issue at hand, acknowledge the inequalities that exist, and seek to eliminate the injustice... An important factor to consider is that this is not a competition of tragedies, certainly there are unfortunate ramifications and societal consequences that exist because of one's socio-economic status, working class and even more effected (the barely working or underclass), the uneducated or undereducated, the homeless, the isolated, the elderly, the disabled, bias and discrimination for any target group that defies the cultural norms of the ruling class and unfortunately the truly marginalized often spill over into multiplicity of such categories. But this was a specific question about the unfair sentencing practices for people of colour. It should not be difficult to at least agree that if we isolate this one issue and look at the statistical proof the undefiable fact is that in fact... unfair sentencing practices for people of colour cannot be reasonably disputed. Allowing yourself to be a useful ally not wanting to enable... then please know that denile... in essence will continue to enable the injustices that are.

This was by far one of the more informed and intelligent responses on here. You understand as well as I was trying to explain the real issues---that contribute to the overall problems we see before us today including injustice in the penal system.

hisbigbabydoll2
01-10-2009, 08:50 AM
Well, I have to comment on this one. My man is doing 25 YEARS over trafficking. Now, it may be drugs not a CD player but do YOU think they seen his white skin when they sentenced him to more time than a freaking murderer????? I dont know any rapist or murderer here in my state that got 25 freaking years and you BEST BELIEVE that he has done DAY for DAY. Been in almost 12 flat. You tell me?



Quick Question Thug....Did he have a background? As in Prior Arrests/Convictions? Was he also charged with possession of a handgun?? As that may have influenced the sentencing judge...but your point is valid that lots of first time non-violent drug offenders serve extraordinary sentences...


I think if anyone examines the disparity in sentencing of drug cases specifically Crack vs. Powder Cocaine then it is clear that the vast majority of individuals sentenced to long terms...with mandatory minimums were African American

The United States Sentencing Guidelines mandated that individuals with (X) amount of crack cocaine which originated in poor black communities were sentenced to (Y) while those with (X) amount of powder cocaine were sentenced to less time. I think the ratio was 25 to 1 (crack to powder cocaine) which is why organizations such as FAMM have fought to reform sentencing and recently the USSC or United States Sentencing Comminission made revisions to the guidelines that removed the disparity that previously existed in sentencing ... and Yes, race was a factor...

Now I am no expert in crack cocaine cases...my man does not even have a cocaine/crack case...but I would encourage all of us to become educated on these issues so that we can hold our elected officials accountable for these laws that remove discretion from sentencing courts and mandate these crazy...sentences....

TedEBare
01-10-2009, 09:07 AM
Not so much of that, I seen a documentary on Henry Lee the asian (whatever he was, forensic scientist or whatever, its been so long I dont remember what he is) but he is a world renowned (sp?) in what he does. I dont remember ANY specifics of the case, because it really didnt concern me PLUS it has been more than a decade since it happened so I am a lil foggy. I DO know that Henry Lee said WITHOUT a DOUBT that he was guilty as sin. How did he get off? MONEY. Now, remember John Gotti? Shit, that man knocked all kinds of lights out in his time and they called him teflon Don, why? Cause he had money--money buys freedom in this country contrary to popular belief. He had a laundry list of bodies, but his charges never stuck. When the man died (I would have to google it because I am unclear) I believe he was in prison over maybe bribery or some foolishness, I am pretty certain he didnt have a murder wrap on him (now I may be wrong) I cant do the googling because all my post will be wasted.... Now, I am not going in a all out war over OJ because that is not what this post is about, K?

I know nothing about the case, and quite frankly I got tired of it (at a young age) consuming every damn tv channel it was, back then. THAT I can remember.........


What I said was that an admitted RACIST ADMITTED that he had planted evidence before against black men and THAT made me doubt his guilt. That is relevant to this thread.

yaya'sbaby
01-10-2009, 09:15 AM
Yes race plays a huge part in sentencing. If a black man comes into court with his public defendant with his family & friends sitting behind him, than the the first thought is, His family is into criminal bahvior and his friends are his "homies". So what happens? he is sentenced harsh! Now let a white man come into court with his family & friends with his lawyer and he is looked at as having a supposrtive family & friend background who made a mistake & needs "therapy" as his punishment. I have seen it first hand many of times.

Wobabi
01-10-2009, 09:26 AM
HisBigBabiDoll-I followed the Situation very carefully.
I am also a paying supporting member of FAMM.
The Supreme Court of the Land ADMITTED that the sentencing guidelines for crack cocaine cases were unfairly SKEWED AGAINST African Americans. Now that was just in crack cases. So IMAGINE the scores of cases for other situations.

Joe-Yes you are right if you are poor and uneducated you are going to spend time in jail,,BUT for SURE you are going to spend MORE TIME if you are black or hispanic.

TIBS-My Canadian Sister in the Struggle. Awesome post. I think many of us let the MEDIA spoon feed us when it comes knowledge of our Judicial System but PTO should be a place where we rip off the Veils of ignorance.

Tia- I did not drag you in this. You need to know what the truth is and not just from a racial dislike based on sterotypes and what you *heard*. Allow yourself to be educated because right now a Black man just might be the one to SAVE PALASTINE.One more fact- Warriors Wife is White as you can see by her avatar and SHE always talks to us addressing us as "SISTERS". And ALL of US embrace her for doing so.:thumbsup:

krainium
01-10-2009, 11:34 AM
Ofcourse race place a big part, we have come a long way but there's still a long way to go!

rayswifey
01-10-2009, 12:11 PM
i totally agree in fact i did a research paper on the topic for school and the info i got totally blew my mind because i just thought that it was kind of a myth but it is true and also i was suprised to find out that gender also plays a role in sentencing because wome get the dp for crimes that if a man would have commited he would not.

Anjewel
01-10-2009, 02:39 PM
I've sat here and read all seven pages...and the kids are gone, so I could actually concentrate this time.

And, I can say without a doubt, the only thing in these whole seven pages that really worries me doesn't even have to do with race...

However....

'The judges also see a lot more than we see. They know statistics better than all the sistas throwin them out in here. They know how a typical educated black man will act, and they know how a typical educated white man will act, and they know what will typically be the best way to deal with those men - whether it be to make an example out of them, punish them to scare them out of whatever they're doing, or whatever.'

This worries me the most out of all the other replies in this thread.

And, yall all are some forces to be reckoned with...

Johnson, am I reading this wrong? SOMEBODY help me out here!

hisbigbabydoll2
01-10-2009, 04:20 PM
Mary Price, vice president and general counsel of FAMM, a national organization working for fair and proportionate sentencing laws says...

“Over 15 years of study by the Sentencing Commission and other agencies have proven that crack cocaine sentences are racially biased and excessive for the low-level, nonviolent offenders to which they are applied.” ...Further she states ".....the Commission’s reasoning that the 100-to-1 crack-to-powder ratio overstates the seriousness of crack offenses and disproportionately impacts blacks."


Correction to my prior post the ratio is 100 to 1 crack to powder cocaine!
Please see the link below for more information
http://www.famm.org/PressRoom/PressReleases/SupremeCourtaffirmsdiscretionincrackcases.aspx (http://www.famm.org/PressRoom/PressReleases/SupremeCourtaffirmsdiscretionincrackcases.aspx)

Wobabi
01-10-2009, 05:27 PM
Mary Price, vice president and general counsel of FAMM, a national organization working for fair and proportionate sentencing laws says...

“Over 15 years of study by the Sentencing Commission and other agencies have proven that crack cocaine sentences are racially biased and excessive for the low-level, nonviolent offenders to which they are applied.” ...Further she states ".....the Commission’s reasoning that the 100-to-1 crack-to-powder ratio overstates the seriousness of crack offenses and disproportionately impacts blacks."


Correction to my prior post the ratio is 100 to 1 crack to powder cocaine!
Please see the link below for more information
http://www.famm.org/PressRoom/PressReleases/SupremeCourtaffirmsdiscretionincrackcases.aspx (http://www.famm.org/PressRoom/PressReleases/SupremeCourtaffirmsdiscretionincrackcases.aspx)
Thank You for that Link.
I am going to learn how to link real soon!
I need to put up several high profile Attornies thoughts on Race and Sentencing as well:thumbsup:

im his tia
01-10-2009, 09:45 PM
Tia- I did not drag you in this. You need to know what the truth is and not just from a racial dislike based on sterotypes and what you *heard*. Allow yourself to be educated because right now a Black man just might be the one to SAVE PALASTINE.One more fact- Warriors Wife is White as you can see by her avatar and SHE always talks to us addressing us as "SISTERS". And ALL of US embrace her for doing so.


So, i can only be EDUCATED by YOU? You make no sense. I said once again i fell for it. Never said anything about YOU personally dragging me in.

You can throw all the daggers you want in my direction.
Once again you are mixing my words to what you want them to be. There is a big difference in calling someone "SISTA" and someone "sister" and you know it. I done with this.........but done forget....President-Elect Obama's Mom was white...And dont they say that "The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world?" :thumbsup:

SpicaRigel
01-11-2009, 01:42 AM
When i was 21 or 22 i was raped,brutally beaten and robbed by three white marines..and they got caught.
When it went to court, the judge looked at me..looked at them...said it was the word of these three young "upstanding"young men against mine and threw the case out. I was nearly killed by these men..and they got off cuz they were three white young upstanding young man. What was i? Trash?

yaya'sbaby
01-11-2009, 07:48 AM
Tia- I did not drag you in this. You need to know what the truth is and not just from a racial dislike based on sterotypes and what you *heard*. Allow yourself to be educated because right now a Black man just might be the one to SAVE PALASTINE.One more fact- Warriors Wife is White as you can see by her avatar and SHE always talks to us addressing us as "SISTERS". And ALL of US embrace her for doing so.


So, i can only be EDUCATED by YOU? You make no sense. I said once again i fell for it. Never said anything about YOU personally dragging me in.

You can throw all the daggers you want in my direction.

Once again you are mixing my words to what you want them to be. There is a big difference in calling someone "SISTA" and someone "sister" and you know it. I done with this.........but done forget....President-Elect Obama's Mom was white...And dont they say that "The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world?" :thumbsup:


:eek::eek::eek::eek: wow

Anjewel
01-11-2009, 08:04 AM
When i was 21 or 22 i was raped,brutally beaten and robbed by three white marines..and they got caught.
When it went to court, the judge looked at me..looked at them...said it was the word of these three young "upstanding"young men against mine and threw the case out. I was nearly killed by these men..and they got off cuz they were three white young upstanding young man. What was i? Trash?

Wendi, I looked at your profile to see how long ago that might have been. If the avatar and the DOB are correct and recent...you doing mighty good, Girl!

I don't think the Governor's daughter would have had a chance accusing anyone in the armed forces back then. The governor may have had someone to take care of them (if he believed her), but the government wouldn't have done a thing.

Wait...define 'upstanding'.

Any uniform is no different to me than any position in government. If it is wrong FOR ANY HUMAN BEING, it's wrong for them. The position, nor uniform, excludes them from REAL morals and ethics.

I appreciate having what little freedom we do, don't get me wrong, it just seems to me that lifestyle, economic status nor position should have any bearing on right or wrong.

You know, it wasn't too long ago a husband could beat the hell out of his wife on a regular basis and it was okay, and some died as a result. Then, when wives started killing husbands, THEY WANTED TO GOVERN IT!

Lady Justice may be blind (I don't know, I've never met her), but her advisers are more twisted than any citizen walking around or incarcerated.

shortyncute
01-11-2009, 08:13 AM
My cousin is white. My cousin got a robbery charge they find a gun on him. He got 5 years. I have a friend that is black. He got a robbery charge with NO GUN. He got 10 to 20! My cousin said in PA that is doesnt matter if u have a gun or not..its still robbery. I dont get it!

Chellie
01-11-2009, 09:03 AM
My cousin is white. My cousin got a robbery charge they find a gun on him. He got 5 years. I have a friend that is black. He got a robbery charge with NO GUN. He got 10 to 20! My cousin said in PA that is doesnt matter if u have a gun or not..its still robbery. I dont get it!

That is so crazy. But unfortunately it is all too common. Look at eagles coach Andy Reid's son's. One had drugs and a gun...he was waving the gun around outside while high. And what happened? How many chances did that rich white boy get? How many times after that was he arrested and then released before they finally would not let him out again?
Now let that have been a poor black or hispanic...do you think he would have been out after the first charge? I don't think so. In PA you get an automatic 5 yrs for a gun and additional time for each bullet, unless you are the right color with the right amount of money .....

MizJohnson
01-11-2009, 12:37 PM
[quote=MizJohnson;4324439]

Does that really matter or is it even relevant to the topic?

Since Com chose to address it, I chose to comment on what she said. Harp on the one who brought it up in the first place how bout it......

MizJohnson
01-11-2009, 12:47 PM
I've sat here and read all seven pages...and the kids are gone, so I could actually concentrate this time.

And, I can say without a doubt, the only thing in these whole seven pages that really worries me doesn't even have to do with race...

However....

'The judges also see a lot more than we see. They know statistics better than all the sistas throwin them out in here. They know how a typical educated black man will act, and they know how a typical educated white man will act, and they know what will typically be the best way to deal with those men - whether it be to make an example out of them, punish them to scare them out of whatever they're doing, or whatever.'

This worries me the most out of all the other replies in this thread.

And, yall all are some forces to be reckoned with...

Johnson, am I reading this wrong? SOMEBODY help me out here!

You'd have to ask me a specific question for me to address whether or not you are reading it right since I don't know what you're thinking lol...

What I'm saying is that it's kindof like how people treat doctors sometimes. A doctor will prescribe such-and-such medicine for someone based on the symptoms they are having, but then if he is wrong about the diagnosis, people are all, "That stupid doctor... bla bla bla." And the doctor had to go through 12+ years of education to get where he is, so he's not stupid, and he does know better than anybody without a doctorate in medicine would know. Yeah, he'll make a mistake here and there, but he still knows what he's doing.
I feel the same way with judges. Yes, there will be racist judges, but I don't think racism is the big problem, and I think there are far fewer racist judgements than some want to believe. Like with crack vs. cocaine - Crack is a totally different drug, and IMO deserves a longer sentence. I actually believe that MOST drug sentences are FAR too long, but I still believe that crack deserves a longer sentence than cocaine because crack is more addictive and has worse side-effects. And then many times I see African Americans up there for selling - not using- these drugs, and I believe that selling deserves a longer sentence.
My main point is that these judges see a lot more than we see, they are educated in what they do, so they know better than we know... most of the time.


And as for a black man saving Palestine - the dude is half white. If he screws up, we sho nuff will here about his white side, won't we? lol..... It's all good. I just think it's funny.

TedEBare
01-11-2009, 01:47 PM
You'd have to ask me a specific question for me to address whether or not you are reading it right since I don't know what you're thinking lol...

What I'm saying is that it's kindof like how people treat doctors sometimes. A doctor will prescribe such-and-such medicine for someone based on the symptoms they are having, but then if he is wrong about the diagnosis, people are all, "That stupid doctor... bla bla bla." And the doctor had to go through 12+ years of education to get where he is, so he's not stupid, and he does know better than anybody without a doctorate in medicine would know. Yeah, he'll make a mistake here and there, but he still knows what he's doing.
I feel the same way with judges. Yes, there will be racist judges, but I don't think racism is the big problem, and I think there are far fewer racist judgements than some want to believe. Like with crack vs. cocaine - Crack is a totally different drug, and IMO deserves a longer sentence. I actually believe that MOST drug sentences are FAR too long, but I still believe that crack deserves a longer sentence than cocaine because crack is more addictive and has worse side-effects. And then many times I see African Americans up there for selling - not using- these drugs, and I believe that selling deserves a longer sentence.
My main point is that these judges see a lot more than we see, they are educated in what they do, so they know better than we know... most of the time.


And as for a black man saving Palestine - the dude is half white. If he screws up, we sho nuff will here about his white side, won't we? lol..... It's all good. I just think it's funny.


From what I understand, crack and cocaine are the same drug in a different form. I could be wrong but that's the way I understood it.

As for the text in red...In my humble, white, opinion...COMPLETELY uncalled for.

MizJohnson
01-11-2009, 01:56 PM
From what I understand, crack and cocaine are the same drug in a different form. I could be wrong but that's the way I understood it.

As for the text in red...In my humble, white, opinion...COMPLETELY uncalled for.

Well, it doesn't surprise me that it's fine to talk about him being black but it's not ok to talk about him being white....

And as for the crack and cocaine thing, I am sure that you are wrong. If a person smokes crack ONE TIME, it's a guarantee that they will be back. If there is a rare case that this is not true, that person should consider himself/herself blessed and move on. With cocaine, it's not the same. If they were the same thing and had the same effect, one would never be chosen over the other... I have seen rich men choose crack over coc for the effects of it - not the price.

Anjewel
01-11-2009, 02:11 PM
Johnson...how many times have you had experience in the court process? The criminal court process, real, live court?

I have only witnessed three in my time, that I had personal knowledge of the events resulting in said court processes, myself. But, I have also read countless transcripts, affidavits and other such history. All kinds of reports and studies (taking into account the author of said reports and studies) and been at this prison life for the last 20 years.

But, out of the three court processes, I can tell you the judge, nor jury knew ANYTHING about ANYONE OR ANYTHING the investigators and attorneys didn't tell them (unless it's a small town where everyone knows everyone and we all know how that goes...).

The courts have been backed up for years, these people don't take the time to truly investigate anything. That's just how it is...it's SUPPOSED to be the attorney's JOB, but...

Yes, there is SUPPOSED to be a history of all that done up, but in most every case all you'll see is the negative come out in a court room. THEN it's only second hand OPINION.

Without making this one post a book, just one instance:

Judge Fulmer (now serves on the 2nd DCA) told Marty he could take the plea bargain of 27 - 40 years or he could choose to take it to jury and she'd sentence him to life. He just KNEW the jury would see through all the bullshit and find him not guilty and back then he knew nothing about the system and he could not plea to something he did not do. Yes, he was there and he done wrong, but not what he was convicted of...

But, alot was left out. Nothing was objected to by his PD. At the very last minute, right before trial was to start, his PD was switched on him. The evidence that would have put a flat tire on the court's joy ride was never allowed and it was all perfectly legal and just...the PD never offered it up. And, countless other mistakes we didn't even know were mistakes until after the time frame for appeals. Until you know how the legal system works, you are just blind and it will eat you up, sometimes you can't figure out exactly why, either, but it happens EVERY DAY court is in session.

Book learning, and I don't care if you had 24 years of it, isn't the same as living it. I do not believe a judge has any idea about anyone's life that he actually gets to try, much, much less things that went on to get the convicted to court. There's no understanding any circumstances that aren't even introduced to start with, whether it's book learning or joe off the same street you live on.

Nah, I don't believe all judge's are racist. Law depends on the interpretation of who's dealing with it. It also depends on the user's ability to manipulate and twist it to their own advantage.

A judge is no different than you and me. No more intelligent, no more experience. He has experience in what ever circles he grew up in and lives in now...and the ability to recite law does not shake it with me. He sees hundreds of cases OF WHAT THEY WANT HIM TO SEE, nothing more, nothing less. I can recite the FDOC 33's (rules and regs), you think they'd hire me or that I would be able to keep my oath to the state as an employee?

It bothers me that you think a judge would know ANYTHING about a person he's never met. But, hey...I guess that's my problem, huh? It's just that folks blindly trusting like that is the very reason the government as a whole, not just DOC, is as messed as it is right now. And, that effects everyone.

My personal opinion? Anyone that feels any part of the system is just, doesn't have a clue.

Johnson, the convicts in this battle aren't JUST the ones incarcerated or in jail. There is a whole lot of ignorance, looking the other way and just plain corruption.

Doctors...I won't even touch that one.

And, it's a little off topic, but...does anyone here know WHERE crack and/or crank came from and what it's made out of?

PTO-92958
01-11-2009, 02:20 PM
And as for the crack and cocaine thing, I am sure that you are wrong.

I beg to differ.
Crack and cocaine are one and the same.
You can go score yourself an 8 ball, go home, cook it down, bring it back, and voila...you got yourself some crack.
Both are highly addictive, both have the same effects, both destroy families and cost billions of dollars to our economy...both should carry the same penalty.
The difference is that crack weighs more...for the same buzz, is smaller and easier to peddle, and more common in inner cities for these convieniences...therefore, minorities are unjustly targeted for the same drug that nets a softer sentance in the suburbs in it's powder form.
For those who do coke once and never feel the need to go re-up on the buzz...they are just as fortunate as those who tried crack one time only and didn't lose themselves to the monster.
They are both equally ugly and destructive.

MizJohnson
01-11-2009, 02:23 PM
Johnson...how many times have you had experience in the court process? The criminal court process, real, live court?

I have only witnessed three in my time, that I had personal knowledge of the events resulting in said court processes, myself. But, I have also read countless transcripts, affidavits and other such history. All kinds of reports and studies (taking into account the author of said reports and studies) and been at this prison life for the last 20 years.

But, out of the three court processes, I can tell you the judge, nor jury knew ANYTHING about ANYONE OR ANYTHING the investigators and attorneys didn't tell them (unless it's a small town where everyone knows everyone and we all know how that goes...).

The courts have been backed up for years, these people don't take the time to truly investigate anything. That's just how it is...it's SUPPOSED to be the attorney's JOB, but...

Yes, there is SUPPOSED to be a history of all that done up, but in most every case all you'll see is the negative come out in a court room. THEN it's only second hand OPINION.

Without making this one post a book, just one instance:

Judge Fulmer (now serves on the 2nd DCA) told Marty he could take the plea bargain of 27 - 40 years or he could choose to take it to jury and she'd sentence him to life. He just KNEW the jury would see through all the bullshit and find him not guilty and back then he knew nothing about the system and he could not plea to something he did not do. Yes, he was there and he done wrong, but not what he was convicted of...

But, alot was left out. Nothing was objected to by his PD. At the very last minute, right before trial was to start, his PD was switched on him. The evidence that would have put a flat tire on the court's joy ride was never allowed and it was all perfectly legal and just...the PD never offered it up. And, countless other mistakes we didn't even know were mistakes until after the time frame for appeals. Until you know how the legal system works, you are just blind and it will eat you up, sometimes you can't figure out exactly why, either, but it happens EVERY DAY court is in session.

Book learning, and I don't care if you had 24 years of it, isn't the same as living it. I do not believe a judge has any idea about anyone's life that he actually gets to try, much, much less things that went on to get the convicted to court. There's no understanding any circumstances that aren't even introduced to start with, whether it's book learning or joe off the same street you live on.

Nah, I don't believe all judge's are racist. Law depends on the interpretation of who's dealing with it. It also depends on the user's ability to manipulate and twist it to their own advantage.

A judge is no different than you and me. No more intelligent, no more experience. He has experience in what ever circles he grew up in and lives in now...and the ability to recite law does not shake it with me. He sees hundreds of cases OF WHAT THEY WANT HIM TO SEE, nothing more, nothing less. I can recite the FDOC 33's (rules and regs), you think they'd hire me or that I would be able to keep my oath to the state as an employee?

It bothers me that you think a judge would know ANYTHING about a person he's never met. But, hey...I guess that's my problem, huh? It's just that folks blindly trusting like that is the very reason the government as a whole, not just DOC, is as messed as it is right now. And, that effects everyone.

My personal opinion? Anyone that feels any part of the system is just, doesn't have a clue.

Johnson, the convicts in this battle aren't JUST the ones incarcerated or in jail. There is a whole lot of ignorance, looking the other way and just plain corruption.

Doctors...I won't even touch that one.

And, it's a little of topic, but...does anyone here know WHERE crack and/or crank came from and what it's made out of?

Britches, First of all, yes, I know what crack is made of and where it comes from, seen it made and made it myself, and I know what you are getting at .... but I also know the effects of BOTH, and I know that they are different, and I know MANY people who can vouch for me on that one....

Other than that, thank you for your informative post. I have been involved indirectly in many court cases and I'm not speaking blindly. I've seen judges give softer sentences like probation to my husband, then community control, and then I saw the look on his face when he couldn't do anything more and had to sentence my husband's BLACK butt to prison because enough is enough.

I have seen stuff like that happen a lot. I have seen it with white people and with black people. What I'm saying is that they have experience in SENTENCING people, and experience in seeing those people come back through or not come back through.... You and I do not have any experience in that as far as I know.

I do not blindly trust the justice system - no way. I know that myself as a white woman I could walk in on the wrong day with the wrong attitude and get dealt with very harshly, so I kiss butt when I walk through those doors. I also know that the only thing I MYSELF have ever gone to court for is a traffic ticket, but nobody ever took it easy on me...

My brother is white and he's gotten into a ton of trouble. My father has CRIED and BEGGED for them to take it easy on my brother before, but they didn't want to listen until my dad came up with MONEY and a LAWYER. - It was the money, not his race, that helped my brother, but even then he still did get into trouble, and it was all drugs - he's not a violent offender.

And as for doctors, lol, I guess there are just some who trust education and some who don't, and that's really fine. And I mean that in all sincerety. I can see how one might not want to trust a doctor, but I have a long line of doctors in my family, so...

MizJohnson
01-11-2009, 02:28 PM
I beg to differ.
Crack and cocaine are one and the same.
You can go score yourself an 8 ball, go home, cook it down, bring it back, and voila...you got yourself some crack.
Both are highly addictive, both have the same effects, both destroy families and cost billions of dollars to our economy...both should carry the same penalty.
The difference is that crack weighs more...for the same buzz, is smaller and easier to peddle, and more common in inner cities for these convieniences...therefore, minorities are unjustly targeted for the same drug that nets a softer sentance in the suburbs in it's powder form.
For those who do coke once and never feel the need to go re-up on the buzz...they are just a fortunate as those who tried crack one time only and didn't lose themselves to the monster.
They are both equally ugly and destructive.

As a former user and seller, I still beg to differ. And even if your argument is accurate, if a smaller amount gets a bigger buzz, then it will be easier to push crack and will therefore spread to a larger group of people.
I have seen many use cocaine once or twice and not have a problem, but I have never seen a person use crack without it making them want more within a short period of time - not talking casual weekend usage on that one.

Anjewel
01-11-2009, 02:29 PM
Crack cocaine, a form of cocaine base, is derived from powder cocaine. Unlike the processing of freebase cocaine, converting powder cocaine into crack cocaine does not involve any flammable solvents.

I found this here: http://www.streetdrugs.org/crack.htm

Methamphetamine is also known as "speed" or "crystal" when it is swallowed or sniffed; as "crank" when it is injected; and as "ice" or "glass" when it is smoked.

Ice is clear chunky crystal form of meth that resembles "ice."

Methamphetamine is clandestinely manufactured using the ephedrine or pseudoephedrine reduction method. In this process...
I found this here: http://www.streetdrugs.org/methamphetamine2.htm


Lord have mercy, we better get back on topic....I only posted because I used to get crack and crank mixed up...

irshnrse
01-11-2009, 02:35 PM
A little off subject but, you have to have powdered cocaine to make crack cocaine. Am I wrong here? Why should crack be worse and why should there be a 100:1 disparity between crack and powdered cocaine except for the fact that African Americans were the ones typically selling the crack and powdered cocaine is typically a white man's drug.
http://www.law.stanford.edu/calendar/details/828/Mandatory%20Minimums%20and%20the%20Crack%2FPowder% 20Sentencing%20Disparity/

http://www.sentencingproject.org/pdfs/1003.pdf.

PTO-92958
01-11-2009, 02:37 PM
I have seen many use cocaine once or twice and not have a problem, but I have never seen a person use crack without it making them want more withing a short period of time - not talking casual weekend usage on that one.

Once upon a time, I was a young, fairly well off white suburbanite with easy access to all kinds of illicit "pharmaceuticals"...Back in the 80's we thought that "bringing back the rock" was merely a different way to use cocaine...Who knew we were creating crack at the time?
I was "lucky" that I didn't sense any difference between the two, and didn't sell my life away trying to stay high.
Neither is "casual weekend" material. Period.
I'm not blind to the irony that this has become a drug as criminally racially divided as it is chemically identical.

Chellie
01-11-2009, 02:46 PM
From what I understand, crack and cocaine are the same drug in a different form. I could be wrong but that's the way I understood it.

Yes you are right same drug...except crack is "cooked" coke and sometimes it's cut with diff stuff....but it's still the same drug in a diff form...100%

MizJohnson
01-11-2009, 03:05 PM
Ok, does anybody know how much crack costs? Even if you SAY that the effects are the same, you still can't argue that it's MUCH easier to push crack than it is cocaine, thereby making it more detrimental.

And cocaine is a "casual weekend" drug for MANY here in my vacation town... Back in the 80s I guess things were different!

I'm not blind to the fact that people will say anything to get what they want - and trying to say that cocaine and crack are the same thing only proves it for me. A more harmful drug that is cheaper and will spread farther is much worse for the streets.

You ladies have a wonderful day, and I hope you find yourselves a better argument :D

joshdudley
01-11-2009, 03:08 PM
Lets make no mistakes about it, Race does play a BIG part in sentencing.
There have been countless of studies to prove it.
The latest changes in the crack sentencing guidelines is just a tip of the ice berg!
FAMM is an organization that has worked so hard on issues like this but due to the latest Madoff Ponzi Scheme,,they too face financial troubles keeping up the fight for Equality.:blah:

My knowledge of Federal mandatory minimum guidelines is somewhat limited but through reading and watching the documentary American Drug War I got the gist of it. The main quarrel people seem to have is that possessing/using/selling crack cocaine was punished 100 times more harshly than powder cocaine? And people claim that is racist because statistically Black people are more likely to be crack addicts and White people powder cocaine users?

Well. Firstly. When Reagan passed the Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1986 it was bang in the middle of the crack epidemic, the prices were at rock bottom, Atlanta, NY, LA and Chicago were saturated with it, it was an unprecedented level of drug addiction in such a short space of time. And the reason punishment was 100 times harsher was nothing to do with race but because 1 gram of crack causes 100 times as many problems for the user and society in general than 1 gram of powder cocaine does.

The vast majority of powder cocaine users, especially in 1986 (it may have become more of a blue collar drug now but then it was for the elite), were middle class, in professional jobs, only 7% of users became addicts, and accordingly very little crime came with it. At worst it caused a few car accidents when people using it were not in control.

Unlike crack, which caused the number of, often violent, property crimes to spiral out of control. Robberies, burglaries, car theft etc

The majority of regular cocaine users didn't commit crimes to pay for their addictions, they were upstanding citizens (Doctors, lawyers, Judges even!) whereas 80% of people who tried crack became addicts and addicts tended to create a great deal of social problems.

Also. For anyone who moans about sentencing being racist, bear this in mind. If you just keep away from crack and coke you won't have to worry about sentencing, will you? Don't do the crime and you don't have to do the time, and therefore don't need to worry about how long the time is.:)

joshdudley
01-11-2009, 03:13 PM
A little off subject but, you have to have powdered cocaine to make crack cocaine. Am I wrong here? Why should crack be worse and why should there be a 100:1 disparity between crack and powdered cocaine except for the fact that African Americans were the ones typically selling the crack and powdered cocaine is typically a white man's drug.
http://www.law.stanford.edu/calendar/details/828/Mandatory%20Minimums%20and%20the%20Crack%2FPowder% 20Sentencing%20Disparity/

http://www.sentencingproject.org/pdfs/1003.pdf.

Hold on a minute. I concede your point that traditionally it has been Black people have used crack cocaine and White people who have used powder cocaine. BUT...you seem to be missing the point, the point is that the person chose to try crack and they got themselves caught, they could have just not used crack and then the sentencing, racist or not, would be irrelevant.

Dwelling on what motivates legislators to make crack possession more serious than cocaine possession is futile, what people should be doing is concentrating on encouraging people not to dabble in either.

Also. Meth, basically the "White man's crack cocaine", has been punished very harshly too. But its harder to make the distinction between user and dealer with meth since it can be produced with limited specialist knowledge and in one's own home with regular household goods. Whereas a crack dealer needs to be pretty professional because they need a source who can supply powder cocaine en masse.

irshnrse
01-11-2009, 03:23 PM
No disrespect Mr. Dudley,
Have you lived in the US and experienced this before? Are you familiar with the US Sentencing Commission and their findings, as well as the decision to change the crack sentencing guidelines and make them retroactive because of the 100:1 disparity between crack and powdered cocaine and the fact that Congress agreed?! They are not typically targeting the USERS, they are targeting the sellers. Finding out why people use drugs is utterly irrelevant to the subject of this thread. Also, the fact that there is a racial disparity is VERY, VERY RELEVANT. I am not missing the point sir... you are.

Chellie
01-11-2009, 03:33 PM
Unlike crack, which caused the number of, often violent, property crimes to spiral out of control. Robberies, burglaries, car theft etc

The majority of regular cocaine users didn't commit crimes to pay for their addictions, they were upstanding citizens (Doctors, lawyers, Judges even!) whereas 80% of people who tried crack became addicts and addicts tended to create a great deal of social problems.

Mabye the reason for this is crack is/was the only thing affordable in the ghetto...If these "upstanding citizens" could not afford their addictions like ppl in the ghetto...let's see how upstanding they would be then. Yes the coke users were addictis...if you do drugs you are an addict. Just because the coke is not cooked does not mean the user is not an addict.

And how upstanding are they really if their coke heads? Just because they can afford their drug of choice and most crack heads can't (because most live in the ghetto) does not make them any more upstanding then the crack heads. An addict is an addict no matter what the drug of choice is...their sick and in need of help.

PTO-92958
01-11-2009, 03:37 PM
Ever since the inner city was flooded with crack (hmmmmmm :hmm:), the ease of peddling it, and the "profit" realized, was exponentially increased, virtually overnight.
It is not more, but equally detrimental, it is more easily accessible. And it is targeting a specific demographic as obviouly as McDonald's commercials are.
Low prices, low income, deadly product, high penalty...only crack puts Black youth in prison...fast food just makes one fat.
Racial profiling no matter how you cut the statistical pie.

Anjewel
01-11-2009, 03:39 PM
If these "upstanding citizens" could not afford their addictions like ppl in the ghetto...let's see how upstanding they would be then.

I asked anyone to define 'upstanding' earlier in this very same thread...

upstanding citizens use drugs...


just taking notes...on with the discussion...


You GOT to laugh...you just GOT to laugh...

Chellie
01-11-2009, 03:45 PM
I asked anyone to define 'upstanding' earlier in this very same thread...

upstanding citizens use drugs...


just taking notes...on with the discussion...


You GOT to laugh...you just GOT to laugh...

Very true...Upstanding citizens do take drugs....Next time I will choose my words a little more wisely. It just upsets me when ppl try to act like ppl who do coke are better then the ones who do crack...just because they can afford to do so.

Anjewel
01-11-2009, 03:57 PM
Very true...Upstanding citizens do take drugs....Next time I will choose my words a little more wisely. It just upsets me when ppl try to act like ppl who do coke are better then the ones who do crack...just because they can afford to do so.

no problem here...I see your point, but the ELITE being upstanding is no different than ministers daughters being angelic...as well as all prisoners being evil monsters.

I gotcha, I was just trying to lighten the mood is all....yall some serious creatures.

Just another example of money vs. race is all, yall just hammering my POV right on in to home base. But, like I said before, as long as the convicted keep hollering race, it'll stay right there. If all races come together and fight for one thing, imagine the troubles the lawmakers would have THEN.

irshnrse
01-11-2009, 04:10 PM
One had better die fighting against injustice than to die like a dog or a rat caught in a trap.
Ida B. Wells (http://www.myfamousquotes.com/?aid=11489)

Chellie
01-11-2009, 04:23 PM
one had better die fighting against injustice than to die like a dog or a rat caught in a trap.
ida b. Wells (http://www.myfamousquotes.com/?aid=11489)

love it

tweedybird
01-11-2009, 04:39 PM
When I saw that Joe Biden was going to run with Obama, I looked him up. I was really pleased that he had worked on bills to make sentencing more equal, for example between crack and cocaine sentences.

Can you imagine what it would do to the gangs if they suddenly had good jobs available that had on the job training and only required high school education? I think if there were positive things to do, positive attention given and hope for getting a job over minimum wage, gangs would soon go out of business.

IloveMike
01-11-2009, 05:36 PM
Yes, race is a factor , which shows in studies of crack sentencing guidelines . there was a dude in our local town was busted at his place of business with pills , cocaine, weed etc...he recieved NO jail time...White....and my man which is black , ridin in a car and recieved conspiracy charges intent to sell and got 60 mths, never has been in trouble before other than a speeding ticket and dui charge back in his 20's which he is 41 now. All of this has been a BIG mess

cinderella2004
01-11-2009, 06:31 PM
Good thread. I think the laws are unfair but I dont think that was their original intention. They're more of a knee jerk reaction to the news of this new drug - dirt cheap and highly addictive, one puff and you're addicted. They threw laws at the problem! The law should be fair though and I like the idea of giving same sentences to both buyers and sellers!!!

But I was thinking ... maybe today the buyer has it worse then the seller. Seller goes to jail, buyer keeps buying but just from someone else. Without a miracle he's bound to lose everything and end up dead. It may take a bit but eventually he's in the gutter and then the grave.

Anjewel
01-11-2009, 06:39 PM
Yes, race is a factor , which shows in studies of crack sentencing guidelines . there was a dude in our local town was busted at his place of business with pills , cocaine, weed etc...he received NO jail time...White....and my man which is black , ridin in a car and received conspiracy charges intent to sell and got 60 mths, never has been in trouble before other than a speeding ticket and dui charge back in his 20's which he is 41 now. All of this has been a BIG mess


Yes, but what kind of legal representation did each have?

That's not a challenge for you to answer, as you probably don't know the white dude's circumstances unless you were there...I just throwed it out there to be thought provoking. If he owned his own business, he may have simply had 'connections' in his county...

My daughter was up for DV (he throwed her up against the wall, he went at her again and she choked the piss out of him before he could get his hands on her, again, I watched it), she used to work for an attorney and had us call him but, he'd already seen her on the docket's, so he just showed up for her first appearance and the charges were 'nollo processed'. They threw the charges out, no record, no nothing. Even for first offense, I've seen people get at least six months county jail for that. His argument was that AT THE TIME she was in college to become a teacher and it would do more harm to end her ability to proceed with her life long plans (you can't be a teacher with a record) than to send her to jail. AND HE VOUCHED FOR HER CHARACTER. She did realize the mistake and it's not happened again, but she did change her course of studies to nuclear medicine. With her temper, she needs more money, anyway.

But, the attorney plays cards with the judges son.

That instance may have been a whole different 'animal' of prejudice you are talking about. Do I think it's right...no, but like everyone else, I sure did appreciate it when it was my family it happened to...

Beachluver
01-11-2009, 06:58 PM
Exactly and why are blacks 85% of the FEderal prison population but they are less than 8% of the whole population?
Conviction rates based on race my dear.
but I bet if they would start giving the Drug Users the SAME amount of time as the drug sellers... you would see Black men become the minority in prison.I wish the day would come when users go to jail with the same amount of time as sellers.
I think you need to do more research on the topic of Race and convictions,,its hard to have someone understand if they are only willing to look from their own perspective.
You dont want to ACCEPT race plays a part but at the same time you dont want to really investigate to see what is the truth.

Why would users get the same amount of time? Sellers are the problem, not the users. Look in your backyard drug dealers ruining neighborhoods & killing people.

If the "black man" wasn't selling drugs he wouldn't be in prison.

Don't blame everything on race when it's not the problem. Everyone has a chance to get an education and live a life without committing crimes. Remember NO ONE makes anyone do anything, a person lives the drug dealing life because it's the easy way out & then screams race when arrested because they are a drug dealer who happens to be black.:rolleyes:

Beachluver
01-11-2009, 07:06 PM
It is far too easy for some people to take the easy way out. Who ever said life was easy, it isn't. But that doesn't mean you have to go sell drugs to get by. I certainly don't. I have had at one time or another ALL my utilities shut off, from electric, to gas, to water, to phone, to cable, you name it, at one time of another I have had it shut off because I couldn't afford to pay. I have had times where I have not had any food in my house, but I managed, LEGALLY to get by and take care of my business. I never sold drugs, sold my body, none of that.
I grew up poorer than poor, lived in the projects at one time, my mother was on welfare, we had been evicted a few times from places we lived. But one thing my mother taught me was this, life isn't easy and there are easy ways out, but have some morals and decency to get yourself by. I may have to swallow my pride at times to ask for help, BUT I NEVER break the law to get by.
I HATE the excuse of being poor. That is NOT an excuse, that is only a reason to want better and to do better. Stand up and take responsibility for your life and actions. THAT is what the problem is in society today. Using being poor as an excuse makes ALL of us poor people look bad. I am in no way by any stretch of the imagination remotely even close to being comfortable as far as money is concerned, but I have never been tempted to sell drugs. If a person gets arrested for dealing drugs, it is their own fault. If the person gets a higher sentence than the next guy, that is their own fault, they shouldn't do the crime. And knowing that there is rasicm, that shoudl be an even bigger reason to not want to break the law. I agree with one other poster who said something alone the lines of, If you know it is out there, why mess with it. If I know I don't have a fair shot at something, I don't mess with it. It is rather simple. And if an 11 year old is trying to put food on the table, it isn't the systems fault, it is the parents fault. The amount of help out there for poor people is tremendous, all you have to do is swallow your pride and ask for it. I live in possibly one of the $hittiest most corrupt cities, and there is help here ....

I wasn't going to resond to this thread because I do not ever want to offend anyone. I may be white, but I can certainly speak about being poor. I also can certainly speak about how the justice system isn't fair to people of all colors, white included. Being poor is NEVER an excuse. I don't rob people, I don't sell drugs, I don't rob banks, people need to stop taking the easy way out and stop blaming everything on the system or the government. You are the only one who controls you and how you do life. No one ever held a gun to my head and made me do anything I didn't want to do. One look in my kids eyes, that is all it takes, I want better for them, so I set a better example, not a bad or easy one. If you can't afford one kid, what makes you think you can afford 2 or 3 or 6 ........ It is not a secret that having children is expensive and takes a lot of work, DON'T GET PREGNANT. There is a very simple way not to, ABSTINANCE. And if you are like me and had 3 children at a time in yur life when you could afford it and then suddenly found yourself a single parent, there is help out there. Damn welfare will even help pay for tuition and job training and daycare and buy you a car.
The poor me card is far too easy for people to play, taking responcibilty for your actions requires some work.

I respect all people and thier situations, I hope I didn't offend anyone, that is not my intention. I am just one more opinion in a world of them.

Who cares if you offened anyone - they'll be offended anyway. You were speaking of your own situation. It goes to show anyone can dig themselves out of a rut without comitting a crime.:thumbsup:

irshnrse
01-11-2009, 07:15 PM
Why would users get the same amount of time? Sellers are the problem, not the users. Look in your backyard drug dealers ruining neighborhoods & killing people.

If the "black man" wasn't selling drugs he wouldn't be in prison.

Don't blame everything on race when it's not the problem. Everyone has a chance to get an education and live a life without committing crimes. Remember NO ONE makes anyone do anything, a person lives the drug dealing life because it's the easy way out & then screams race when arrested because they are a drug dealer who happens to be black.:rolleyes:


The point is that there is racial disparity in sentencing.

TedEBare
01-11-2009, 07:22 PM
Well, it doesn't surprise me that it's fine to talk about him being black but it's not ok to talk about him being white....

And as for the crack and cocaine thing, I am sure that you are wrong. If a person smokes crack ONE TIME, it's a guarantee that they will be back. If there is a rare case that this is not true, that person should consider himself/herself blessed and move on. With cocaine, it's not the same. If they were the same thing and had the same effect, one would never be chosen over the other... I have seen rich men choose crack over coc for the effects of it - not the price.

My point wasn't that it wasn't ok to talk about him being white. It was the condescending "sho nuf" speak.

Chellie
01-11-2009, 07:24 PM
Why would users get the same amount of time? Sellers are the problem, not the users.
While I do agree that both users and sellers are breaking the law...(by their own choice). I disagree with this statement. Think about it...a crack user's dealer goes to jail for 5 years...does that stop the user? NO! They move on to another dealer. My point being that no matter how many dealers you lock up...the user will find a place to buy their drug of choice. If you cut off the users...(maybe get them help, maybe give them the same amount of time as the dealers)...who will the dealers have to sell to? No users no dealers. But as long as there are addicts there will be dealers.

Anjewel
01-11-2009, 07:46 PM
Why would users get the same amount of time? Sellers are the problem, not the users. Look in your backyard drug dealers ruining neighborhoods & killing people.

If the "black man" wasn't selling drugs he wouldn't be in prison.

Don't blame everything on race when it's not the problem. Everyone has a chance to get an education and live a life without committing crimes. Remember NO ONE makes anyone do anything, a person lives the drug dealing life because it's the easy way out & then screams race when arrested because they are a drug dealer who happens to be black.:rolleyes:

I don't know about this...it's called supply and demand. If there's no demand there's no supply. Period. So, looking at if from that POV, dealers shouldn't get as much time as users. But, I don't care for addicts being thrown in a prison cell, either.

If the 'black man' is doing all the selling, he's just making a dollar. In this day and time, you gotta get it where it's at. The truth is hard even for me, but I didn't go to college to be a state worker, I went for accounting. There just happens to be less of a market for accountants than state workers at this point in time where I live. I was out of work almost a year, and I have that college education everyone is hammering on right now. If I would have been dealing all that time I wouldn't need to file bankruptcy now...and, I have a college education. Why didn't I? Because I didn't want to have to kill someone.

What's the best way to keep a group from coming at you? Keep them divided and fighting amongst themselves.

Rave on!

canthelpbutwait
01-11-2009, 08:18 PM
Why would users get the same amount of time? Sellers are the problem, not the users. Look in your backyard drug dealers ruining neighborhoods & killing people.

If the "black man" wasn't selling drugs he wouldn't be in prison.

Don't blame everything on race when it's not the problem. Everyone has a chance to get an education and live a life without committing crimes. Remember NO ONE makes anyone do anything, a person lives the drug dealing life because it's the easy way out & then screams race when arrested because they are a drug dealer who happens to be black.:rolleyes:

Did you ever stop to think a user can become addicted to a drug which then turns to continuous drug use and that habit as long with all the habits that come with it (for an example, stealing, pawning, lying, manipulating) becomes a lifestyle for them.. it winds up being ALL they really know as long as they are addicted.

A man who has only known the street life- never had much chance at education because either making money to support his family or himself became necc & he was unable to obtain even a minimum wage job for whatever reason.. or simply the street life was all he knew, perhaps he was an addict of the streets- that fast cash- whether it is hustling drugs, watches, clothes, whatever.. robbing someone... whatever.. it too becomes habitual...

so as you say dealers or street runners are killing people/hurting people..ruining neighborhoods because of their lifestyle.. can a user not do the same thing? Stealing to get high.. prostituing to make money(passing lord knows what to their johns)..

so by any means... one is no better than the other.. they both are doing things that may not be considered moral or legal by some.. but to compare the two is like comparing cashews and almonds.. they may be two different things but there are many similarities...

BlueEyedEllie
01-11-2009, 09:15 PM
Did you ever stop to think a user can become addicted to a drug which then turns to continuous drug use and that habit as long with all the habits that come with it (for an example, stealing, pawning, lying, manipulating) becomes a lifestyle for them.. it winds up being ALL they really know as long as they are addicted.

A man who has only known the street life- never had much chance at education because either making money to support his family or himself became necc & he was unable to obtain even a minimum wage job for whatever reason.. or simply the street life was all he knew, perhaps he was an addict of the streets- that fast cash- whether it is hustling drugs, watches, clothes, whatever.. robbing someone... whatever.. it too becomes habitual...

so as you say dealers or street runners are killing people/hurting people..ruining neighborhoods because of their lifestyle.. can a user not do the same thing? Stealing to get high.. prostituing to make money(passing lord knows what to their johns)..

so by any means... one is no better than the other.. they both are doing things that may not be considered moral or legal by some.. but to compare the two is like comparing cashews and almonds.. they may be two different things but there are many similarities...
slightly off-topic, but to concur with what you said,marc was never a drug addict per se, but he told me he was very much addicted to the fast money. he told me that can be as strong of an addiction as any drug.

BlueEyedEllie
01-11-2009, 09:17 PM
no problem here...I see your point, but the ELITE being upstanding is no different than ministers daughters being angelic...as well as all prisoners being evil monsters.

I gotcha, I was just trying to lighten the mood is all....yall some serious creatures.

Just another example of money vs. race is all, yall just hammering my POV right on in to home base. But, like I said before, as long as the convicted keep hollering race, it'll stay right there. If all races come together and fight for one thing, imagine the troubles the lawmakers would have THEN.
i'm a minister's daughter and i certainly cannot (although i wish i could) call myself angelic!!!!

Chellie
01-11-2009, 09:29 PM
A man who has only known the street life- never had much chance at education because either making money to support his family or himself became necc & he was unable to obtain even a minimum wage job for whatever reason.. or simply the street life was all he knew, perhaps he was an addict of the streets- that fast cash- whether it is hustling drugs, watches, clothes, whatever.. robbing someone... whatever.. it too becomes habitual...

so as you say dealers or street runners are killing people/hurting people..ruining neighborhoods because of their lifestyle.. can a user not do the same thing? Stealing to get high.. prostituing to make money(passing lord knows what to their johns)..

...

:clap::clap::clap:

templart
01-11-2009, 10:40 PM
I agree babi! And race certainly had everything to do with that poor young man in Oakland being shot by the policeman while he was restrained. Insanity!

Boo I can relate entirely because my man was shot last year by a police office twice while on his lunch break before even being read his rights. There are numerous cases like this that we as people dont hear about because they are swept under the table, I did a research project about this subject and my eyes were open to alot of unjustices happening in the us today!!

Mark2008
01-12-2009, 12:19 AM
i'm a minister's daughter and i certainly cannot (although i wish i could) call myself angelic!!!!

I disagree. Beth is actually quite angelic!!!

canthelpbutwait
01-12-2009, 12:22 AM
I disagree. Beth is actually quite angelic!!!

im with you on this one mark:thumbsup:

Resah
01-12-2009, 01:17 AM
Mark ONCE AGAIN,,you hit the nail on the head!
It just floors me that we are on a prison web site where YES the majority of men in Prison are Minorities BUT YET when ever we try to discuss WHO WHAT WHY of them being there,,,Everyone wants to sweep it under the rug as if it should be shame on them for getting locked up OR we are just barking up a race tree.
There should be tons of threads discussing this issue!!
We can support Black men when they are in relationships in Prison but dealing/discussing the issues of the unfair practices of the Legal System and the Racist sentencing guidelines against them are Taboo.:rolleyes:
I am not going to stop talking about these issues so I am glad to know there are some I can have dialogue with about this.
Thanks to You again!:thumbsup:

I have noticed this too, Wobabi. And I am very glad to see this discussion happening here on PTO, for all the reasons you have just described. And yes, many people get uncomfortable in this country when we try to honestly address the deep wounds and reprecussions related to centuries of racism (and very present manifestations as well). But that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it. What I have appreciated about PTO in the months that I have been a part of this community is the extraordinary compassion and comraderie that we feel for each other because we all share the experience of having someone we care about in this awful prison system. That's very good. And I think it gives us a basis to start from in order to have discussions about aspects of race and class and gender that profoundly affect our loved ones (and US!) because of the way these elements drive the injustices of the "justice" system.

It's a conversation we really need to have. And there are, unfortunately, very few places in the public life of this country where regular people are talking about these things. It will not always be an easy conversation. But I think we are capable of having it -- even if we have to make some mistakes or step on a few toes in the process. We can and do apologize when feelings get hurt and those of us who have ideas about how to continue the conversation from a spirit of respect and compassion should always offer those. But I think we do ourselves (and our blessed and suffering country) a terrible disservice if we try to "calm it down" or "sweep it under the rug."

There are lots of intelligent and creative people who participate in this site. Who knows, if we let ourselves struggle through these issues, we might be able to come up with some ideas for transformation that will catch on and bring some needed change.

Peace.


Resah

Anjewel
01-12-2009, 02:39 AM
There are several things I posted in another thread, but it's relevant so...here goes...

Again, I will be the first to say that research and education are very important when making judgement calls ABOUT ANYTHING in life.

However, I was in a discussion about race versus legal counsel a while back. My stance was and still is...it doesn't matter what color you are, if you don't have the ability to get yourself good legal counsel, you are gonna serve more time than someone that has it.

There ARE an awful, sinful, immoral amount of black men in prison, but...BUT, there are even more poor, ignorant people in prison than black men. Please don't anyone take that as an offense or insult. I say ignorant as in, the things they were accused of was so trumped up they just KNEW the court or jury would see through the charges, to the truth, and he wouldn't even need a paid, street lawyer.

How many folks do ANY of you know in prison who were young when they got caught up in the legal system with parents that thought 'I couldn't get you to act right, now the state will. Maybe some time in prison will settle you down and teach you a lesson.' Or, 'No way I'm putting my house up for you to just come back and get in more trouble.' And, sadly, even the older ones that had a family, grown and gone from mama's house for a while when they get slung up and they are just making it paycheck(s) to paycheck(s) now, they just can not hire an attorney. They had been helping mom here and there when they could so mom sure doesn't have the means to help now. There's no color on those and many other situations.

All this jabber, what the hell am I getting at?

Well, it bothers me that anyone puts very much stock in any report or survey. Second hand information is too easily corrupted or at the least, gathered and compiled, the way the person or organization WANTS it to look. There's not a person on this list that puts very much trust in the criminal justice system, and rightly so. The criminal justice system is governed by the State or Feds (because we have allowed them to for so long), why are we going to believe and put alot of stock into anything they say, positive or negative? Even some organizations, it's still THEIR outlook, gathered and compiled the way they wanted it and they can spin the findings to their POV just as anyone else.

I am not denying there's too many black men in prison. But, as long as the government keeps us thinking it's a racial thing, it stays racial. And, that fact alone will keep us divided. And, what do they say about being divided?

There are too many PEOPLE in prison right now, period.

The criminal justice system has went for so many years unsupervised by the people, the government has just buried it in so much red tape, no one can dig themselves out once caught up in it.

But, it's not JUST prior records that kill a person these days. It's not JUST sentencing score sheets or even the idiocracy of the laws these days...you got to get caught up in it before that part of it affects you.

It's the corruption in the investigations and the court PROCESS, also. And, my evidence of that statement is all the men being accused and convicted of wicked, evil criminal acts AND MOST HAVE SERVED DECADES IN PRISON only to find NOW DAYS with DNA...they were innocent.

Now, let me think out loud (or type, whichever) for a minute. Most of the laws and sentencing structure was THOUGHT of and went into effect on someones opinion of the problems with the crime rate as it LOOKED at the time.

Think about those last two paragraphs for a minute.

People were outraged that drugs seemed to be taking over this country. No one, not one single person that had that problem knew ANYTHING about WHY so many were dealing drugs, not to mention the likelihood and troubles with addiction once you get caught up in it.

Just in my time on this earth, I've seen it go from America to ME. And, there is power and satisfaction in 'speaking your mind' and 'standing up for yourself', but when it gets to the point of damage, it's not healthy. Not for you, not for anyone.

It seems to me the government has sat back and watched as WE allowed racism to spite our own lives. I am not taking anything away from the real, true issues of racism. To this day, I wonder if America will ever truly grow up...but, I also believe the government has used our sensitivity to that same issue to their advantage, ESPECIALLY in the criminal justice system.

As long as we are divided over racism (or any other issue), we will never get together and fight THEM over the injustice system.

It is sad and frustrating to see so much intelligence and strength and so many can't see the storm for the rain...or won't. And, the condescending stabs...that's tacky and shows your upbringing. But, that's America...the greatest protected right still standing is ignorance. It's much easier for them that way.

What kind of reports and statistical data do you think they manipulated and twisted to get the powder to solid disparities IN THE FIRST PLACE?

cinderella2004
01-12-2009, 05:32 AM
Why would users get the same amount of time? Sellers are the problem, not the users. Look in your backyard drug dealers ruining neighborhoods & killing people.

If the "black man" wasn't selling drugs he wouldn't be in prison.

Don't blame everything on race when it's not the problem. Everyone has a chance to get an education and live a life without committing crimes. Remember NO ONE makes anyone do anything, a person lives the drug dealing life because it's the easy way out & then screams race when arrested because they are a drug dealer who happens to be black.:rolleyes:

Respectfully disagree! The users are just as much a part of the problem. What about supply and demand, if the demand wasn't there ...??

My stepson would go to the city to buy his heroin. Do I blame the dealer or him? I blame him!!! He's the idiot, he's the moron, he's the seeker, he made the effort to go after it and did so daily.

Frankly, its sickening to me that all the blame goes to dealer. Buyer is equally guilty in my mind every time. He'll eventually be punished though, unless something major happens in his life these addictive drugs will end up killing him.

We need equal justice!

Oh and I also respectfully disagree with what you said about race too. There hasn't always been equal education and equal opportunities, they still aren't equal. All it takes is one look at a dialysis unit in a white neighborhood versus one in a black neighborhood. I see it all the time.

P.S. Just wanted to say my stepson was a buyer but now in prison for armed robbery and just in case it matters I'm a white woman who dates white men.

BlueEyedEllie
01-12-2009, 06:06 AM
I disagree. Beth is actually quite angelic!!!

dear dear mark!!!!!! ask the other marc, i'm sure he'd disagree,lol!!!!! just kidding!!

Tay28
01-12-2009, 08:11 AM
I've sat here and read all seven pages...and the kids are gone, so I could actually concentrate this time.

And, I can say without a doubt, the only thing in these whole seven pages that really worries me doesn't even have to do with race...

However....

'The judges also see a lot more than we see. They know statistics better than all the sistas throwin them out in here. They know how a typical educated black man will act, and they know how a typical educated white man will act, and they know what will typically be the best way to deal with those men - whether it be to make an example out of them, punish them to scare them out of whatever they're doing, or whatever.'

This worries me the most out of all the other replies in this thread.

And, yall all are some forces to be reckoned with...

Johnson, am I reading this wrong? SOMEBODY help me out here!Along with you this, too, bothers me. What bothers me is the appalling lack of some of these women recognizing their own benign racist nature. How damaging is that? You can love, date, and or marry a Black man and yet when it comes down to the overall discussion of how race impacts sentencing, suddenly, it becomes I am "so sick of hearing about race", "it's not really about race", and other smarting comments that make me cringe. You don't even see how callous and ignorant some of you all are being. You only see one layer of your men, and not the rest that comes with his Blackness. Or do you strategically ignore it and let it become a subconscious thought? Your subconscious is now voicing the way you really view race and society in the most damning ways.

God help those of you who have children with these men. God especially help you if they are boys, because there is a strong possibility they will be harassed for the sake of their heritage. Racially profiled. Harassed by police for petty reasons. Perhaps caught in the wrong place, at the wrong time, with the wrong people. You never know. If these things happen will you be sick of hearing about race then? Will race not be a consideration for the cause. Will it?

If you cannot see and admit the whole truth how can you tell your future children, your boys and protect them, and arm them with the knowledge they will need. What will you tell them about the legacy of their Black heritage alongside your own? Will you even tell them, bother to find out, or leave this part of their education to capable fathers? Or are your men acquainted with their culture and society enough to tell them? Will your love be colorblind then? Acknowledging only what you wish to and ignoring the rest?

Ignorance abides when people will not recognize their own fallacies and are too prideful to admit the entire truth. When you only see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear, you cut yourself off from the greater understanding, the greater good. There is more than yourself to consider in this equation. You think it does not effect you but by God it does! And it will effect your relationships and your future/present children outside of your hazed vision of the world.

You don't have that knowledge to give, and it is evident. And it's not simply because some of you all are White, it is because some of you are so riddled with the poisonous product of prejudice and latent racist conditioning that it will prevent you from seeing the truth and being able to understand it and explain it to your sons who will need it.

Racism and classism are twin evils, that walk hand in hand and affect every tier of our thinking and lives. If you cannot recognize that, then you have failed to conceive a realistic view and understanding of the world. Your minds are ill and prey to every type of ignorance then, and you have no hope of being able to help someone else as long as you are mentally encumbered.

Once again you are mixing my words to what you want them to be. There is a big difference in calling someone "SISTA" and someone "sister" and you know it. I done with this.........but done forget....President-Elect Obama's Mom was white...And dont they say that "The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world?"And what does it matter to you what a Black woman calls herself and her kindred and friends? Why is the term so offensive to you? What have you done to earn said title when you pervade in your own limited understanding? I personally do not refer to anyone as sista or sisters, unless they have earned that place in my life---and I have friends of every ethnic group: Black, Asian, Latino and White. I would not refer to you as sista or sister, because you are not. And I would not expect that you would refer to me as such either.

And as for your insolent comment about "the hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world", what is this? A competition between who has superiority and rulership among all women? Is your inferiority complex showing when you make such a statement? Do you feel the need to have a position of power over Black women or Black people? Are you infuriated at the thought or threatened by Black women with intelligence and knowledge? Or is it intimidation and anguish at Black leadership period? You don't realize how telling that comment is. Your racism is showing dear, and it's not a good look.

And if all the texts and research available have not taught you that Africa is the descendant land of all life and civilization, the very cradle of mankind, then you must know what that means. It is a Black hand then that has spawned and ruled the world, if I am following the interpretation of your comment correctly. Puts things in a different light, doesn't it?

Our discussion began with race and sentencing. There is a huge disparity, but even more than that these are human lives in the balance. There is massive injustice across the board. Correctional facilities fail to correct, they brutalize, and reproduce true criminals. Our fight should not be locked to the strata of racism, but understanding how human kind becomes the victim and the violator in the capitalist holds of prison interests. This battle begins with how our society operates and giving men choices and options to other than crime and violence. Alternatives to prison so that they can be redeemed and restored to citizenship in their communities.

Someone speak to me about how we can do that. Because the horse we are beating has been rotting in the road for years. We change things, by changing our minds, transforming and expanding our viewpoints, and understanding the real issues that need addressing so that we are not enabling criminals and addicts, but forging and restoring MEN, OUR MEN. I think that is something, at least, we can all agree upon.

im his tia
01-12-2009, 11:09 AM
Along with you this, too, bothers me. What bothers me is the appalling lack of some of these women recognizing their own benign racist nature. How damaging is that? You can love, date, and or marry a Black man and yet when it comes down to the overall discussion of how race impacts sentencing, suddenly, it becomes I am "so sick of hearing about race", "it's not really about race", and other smarting comments that make me cringe. You don't even see how callous and ignorant some of you all are being. You only see one layer of your men, and not the rest that comes with his Blackness. Or do you strategically ignore it and let it become a subconscious thought? Your subconscious is now voicing the way you really view race and society in the most damning ways.

God help those of you who have children with these men. God especially help you if they are boys, because there is a strong possibility they will be harassed for the sake of their heritage. Racially profiled. Harassed by police for petty reasons. Perhaps caught in the wrong place, at the wrong time, with the wrong people. You never know. If these things happen will you be sick of hearing about race then? Will race not be a consideration for the cause. Will it?

If you cannot see and admit the whole truth how can you tell your future children, your boys and protect them, and arm them with the knowledge they will need. What will you tell them about the legacy of their Black heritage alongside your own? Will you even tell them, bother to find out, or leave this part of their education to capable fathers? Or are your men acquainted with their culture and society enough to tell them? Will your love be colorblind then? Acknowledging only what you wish to and ignoring the rest?

Ignorance abides when people will not recognize their own fallacies and are too prideful to admit the entire truth. When you only see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear, you cut yourself off from the greater understanding, the greater good. There is more than yourself to consider in this equation. You think it does not effect you but by God it does! And it will effect your relationships and your future/present children outside of your hazed vision of the world.

You don't have that knowledge to give, and it is evident. And it's not simply because some of you all are White, it is because some of you are so riddled with the poisonous product of prejudice and latent racist conditioning that it will prevent you from seeing the truth and being able to understand it and explain it to your sons who will need it.

Racism and classism are twin evils, that walk hand in hand and affect every tier of our thinking and lives. If you cannot recognize that, then you have failed to conceive a realistic view and understanding of the world. Your minds are ill and prey to every type of ignorance then, and you have no hope of being able to help someone else as long as you are mentally encumbered.

And what does it matter to you what a Black woman calls herself and her kindred and friends? Why is the term so offensive to you? What have you done to earn said title when you pervade in your own limited understanding? I personally do not refer to anyone as sista or sisters, unless they have earned that place in my life---and I have friends of every ethnic group: Black, Asian, Latino and White. I would not refer to you as sista or sister, because you are not. And I would not expect that you would refer to me as such either.

And as for your insolent comment about "the hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world", what is this? A competition between who has superiority and rulership among all women? Is your inferiority complex showing when you make such a statement? Do you feel the need to have a position of power over Black women or Black people? Are you infuriated at the thought or threatened by Black women with intelligence and knowledge? Or is it intimidation and anguish at Black leadership period? You don't realize how telling that comment is. Your racism is showing dear, and it's not a good look.

And if all the texts and research available have not taught you that Africa is the descendant land of all life and civilization, the very cradle of mankind, then you must know what that means. It is a Black hand then that has spawned and ruled the world, if I am following the interpretation of your comment correctly. Puts things in a different light, doesn't it?

Our discussion began with race and sentencing. There is a huge disparity, but even more than that these are human lives in the balance. There is massive injustice across the board. Correctional facilities fail to correct, they brutalize, and reproduce true criminals. Our fight should not be locked to the strata of racism, but understanding how human kind becomes the victim and the violator in the capitalist holds of prison interests. This battle begins with how our society operates and giving men choices and options to other than crime and violence. Alternatives to prison so that they can be redeemed and restored to citizenship in their communities.

Someone speak to me about how we can do that. Because the horse we are beating has been rotting in the road for years. We change things, by changing our minds, transforming and expanding our viewpoints, and understanding the real issues that need addressing so that we are not enabling criminals and addicts, but forging and restoring MEN, OUR MEN. I think that is something, at least, we can all agree upon.


For real....i was done. You all want to diss me, because i want to defend myself.....But , its ok for you to be proud of your race?

And while i admit that my "cradle" comment may have been a little un-called for ,that came out of my being pis*ed off at your dear friend B for saying that "A BLACK man may just be the one to save Palestine" if you guys can refer to him as black,why cant me and others refer to him as white? On one hand, you want us to understand where you are coming from, but on the other hand you dog us for our "white" coments.

Tay, I have read a lot of post from you and I agree with most of what you have to say(not saying that you care). I dont care what color anyone is. It just makes me mad when people call me out saying i am a racist,when i am just saying what most of you are,but from the prospective of a white woman. And why should i feel bad or ashamed for being white?

No one ever asked me what my opinion was on the sentencing....I am a former prison guard and let me tell you i could give you an ear full.

I voted for Barack Obama and it had NOTHING to do with his race. Ok in a way it did. He actually gives me hope that MY BIRACIAL children can reach a higher level too. I see racism everywhere. No,i dont live in a state that has a high population of black people. But, we do have a lot of latinos. My husband is one. So, please dont insult my intelligence (not you, people in general) and say that i live in my white serene world and dont see it or feel it. My kids get called spics,wetbacks and beaners.My oldest son has been called camel jockey,sand ni**er and towel head. I have been called "Mrs. Wetback" myself. I get sh*t from latino women for taking one of "theirs". And believe it or not, i llook up to ALL of you guys for holding your men down,honestly, i probably couldnt do it for more than a year or two.....But, i will always stay with what i believe. No one can take that from me or.........YOU! :thumbsup:

codasgirl04
01-12-2009, 02:01 PM
I have to watch what i say b/c i think Wobabi was the one who told me that I " might stoop to my man's level of thinking"
I personally think it's funny that we are and will always fight over what our men did and how much time he got b/c of there race. IF my man gets pulled over for speeding he has every cop in both cities at his car with guns pointed at him just b/c of his record ( don't question it, i've been there) now is that fair? Doesn't anyone have more things to worry about than if my man is white and your man is black or whatever race he is and wondering how long they got? I think thugwife's case is messed up just to point one person out.
I won't get into the "race" comments, look everywhere in prison there is race EVERYWHERE in there. Crap the same guy that my man would say hi to in visiting he would not talk to back in the pod, and don't act like your man doesn't do the same thing - ok maybe there are a few on here that don't and i firsthand know them.
I know what I watch on TV and know that if white person said that the crap would hit the fan. I should end it here b/c i don't want to start anything, i've done my time and now our new journey has begun

Tay28
01-12-2009, 02:10 PM
Veering off topic just slightly to address this:

My pride in my ethnic heritage does not depend on dissing you or any other White person. It is a pride that goes deeper than pettiness and prejudice. Your issue is not relevant to it at all. That you view it as a cause or source of agitation is your problem and not mine.

You are not paying attention to what your statements are betraying.

I seek to take nothing from you. Only to impart some insight into what is so obvious. We will not see the same, and that is not my goal. But speaking the truth, for me, will always be the point, whether it is accepted or not.

As for Obama being White. Ironically, according to the ethnic codes regarding bloodlines of this country, being of African/African American ancestry does make a person Black. So based on that it would definitely make Obama a Black man, and he identifies himself as such. He has never identified him self himself as being White. I could get into that complicated commentary, and stir in genetics for accuracy and flavor, but I won't because that is not relevant to this topic.

The topic IS Race and it's impact on sentencing.

For real....i was done. You all want to diss me, because i want to defend myself.....But , its ok for you to be proud of your race?

And while i admit that my "cradle" comment may have been a little un-called for ,that came out of my being pis*ed off at your dear friend B for saying that "A BLACK man may just be the one to save Palestine" if you guys can refer to him as black,why cant me and others refer to him as white? On one hand, you want us to understand where you are coming from, but on the other hand you dog us for our "white" coments.

Tay, I have read a lot of post from you and I agree with most of what you have to say(not saying that you care). I dont care what color anyone is. It just makes me mad when people call me out saying i am a racist,when i am just saying what most of you are,but from the prospective of a white woman. And why should i feel bad or ashamed for being white?

No one ever asked me what my opinion was on the sentencing....I am a former prison guard and let me tell you i could give you an ear full.

I voted for Barack Obama and it had NOTHING to do with his race. Ok in a way it did. He actually gives me hope that MY BIRACIAL children can reach a higher level too. I see racism everywhere. No,i dont live in a state that has a high population of black people. But, we do have a lot of latinos. My husband is one. So, please dont insult my intelligence (not you, people in general) and say that i live in my white serene world and dont see it or feel it. My kids get called spics,wetbacks and beaners.My oldest son has been called camel jockey,sand ni**er and towel head. I have been called "Mrs. Wetback" myself. I get sh*t from latino women for taking one of "theirs". And believe it or not, i llook up to ALL of you guys for holding your men down,honestly, i probably couldnt do it for more than a year or two.....But, i will always stay with what i believe. No one can take that from me or.........YOU! :thumbsup:

Wobabi
01-12-2009, 02:10 PM
Along with you this, too, bothers me. What bothers me is the appalling lack of some of these women recognizing their own benign racist nature. How damaging is that? You can love, date, and or marry a Black man and yet when it comes down to the overall discussion of how race impacts sentencing, suddenly, it becomes I am "so sick of hearing about race", "it's not really about race", and other smarting comments that make me cringe. You don't even see how callous and ignorant some of you all are being. You only see one layer of your men, and not the rest that comes with his Blackness. Or do you strategically ignore it and let it become a subconscious thought? Your subconscious is now voicing the way you really view race and society in the most damning ways.

And as for your insolent comment about "the hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world", what is this? A competition between who has superiority and rulership among all women? Is your inferiority complex showing when you make such a statement? Do you feel the need to have a position of power over Black women or Black people? Are you infuriated at the thought or threatened by Black women with intelligence and knowledge? Or is it intimidation and anguish at Black leadership period? You don't realize how telling that comment is. Your racism is showing dear, and it's not a good look.


Our discussion began with race and sentencing. There is a huge disparity, but even more than that these are human lives in the balance.

.
Tay another great one!!! I just had to highlights points that were very well taken by me.
There is no Escaping the FACTS as HisBigBabidoll posted ,,,Taxpayers probably paid a good penny for the Sentencing Commission to come up the facts what Black people knew all along.
We get HARSHER STIFFER SENTENCES than any other race.
I am not understanding why people are refusing to accept what has already been studied paid for and submitted as well as Stamped by the Highest Law of the Land-The Supereme Court!
I dont care what they are tired of hearing or talking about.Because I dont see any posts on PTO that would tire them out about it!!!
Where are the thousands of posts about how unjust the system is towards Black men?? Show me!
But now there are thousands of posts about loving them, breaking up with them, calling them collect and writing them love letters.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
If people dont want to hear about it then skip MY threads because I will SURELY talk MORE about it!:HNY:

BlueEyedEllie
01-12-2009, 02:21 PM
Tay another great one!!! I just had to highlights points that were very well taken by me.
There is no Escaping the FACTS as HisBigBabidoll posted ,,,Taxpayers probably paid a good penny for the Sentencing Commission to come up the facts what Black people knew all along.
We get HARSHER STIFFER SENTENCES than any other race.
I am not understanding why people are refusing to accept what has already been studied paid for and submitted as well as Stamped by the Highest Law of the Land-The Supereme Court!
I dont care what they are tired of hearing or talking about.Because I dont see any posts on PTO that would tire them out about it!!!
Where are the thousands of posts about how unjust the system is towards Black men?? Show me!
But now there are thousands of posts about loving them, breaking up with them, calling them collect and writing them love letters.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
If people dont want to hear about it then skip MY threads because I will SURELY talk MORE about it!:HNY:
i'm more than willing to hear you,dear babi. i honestly DON'T KNOW so i don't like to speak about things i really don't know much about. i'll tell you this though, experiencing the very racist behavior by the cops in my town towards marc when i turned him in and the total lack of response when i complained has me believing most likely it's true. i just haven't read up on all the statistics. keep these type threads coming. i may not comment but i most certainly read them!!

thugwife
01-12-2009, 02:50 PM
Ya'll lost me when the 4 or 5 pages talked about drug dealing instead of the impact race has in sentencing. Continue on with your battles, thats all this has become.

Wobabi
01-12-2009, 02:55 PM
Ya'll lost me when the 4 or 5 pages talked about drug dealing instead of the impact race has in sentencing. Continue on with your battles, thats all this has become.
Its not a battle so you need to read more.
I am not going to let anyone take the thread that way.
But there is a voice that needs to be heard about injustice and racial inequality inthe justice system.
PTO is the PERFECT place for it to be heard, just like all the OTHER ISSUES that we discuss!

PTO-92958
01-12-2009, 03:45 PM
And, for the record, the posts on drug sales and usage were directly pertaining to the original topic of this thread, as they demonstrate the sharp disparities in sentancing due to that racial divide; the flooding of inner cities with a drug that gets a far harsher sentance than it's "White" demographic's counterpart, and the 100:1 time imposed upon "offenders".
Those posts practically spelled out the role race plays in sentancing...at least as far as drug related crimes go.

ant's wife
01-12-2009, 04:23 PM
i knew there was a difference in sentencing with race but i honestly didn't know how much of a difference it was until i read up on the crack law for my man, my mouth hit the floor when i saw the statistics

tweedybird
01-12-2009, 08:12 PM
One thing I know, is we won't get very far in improving anything if we fight among ourselves. We need to work together. In general I think we spend way too much time discussing high school type aspects of relationships and too little time looking at the overall issues.

I understand the issues that lead a person to try to get quick money. I've had many black men with long sentences tell me that they knew what they were doing was wrong. They say everyone around them was in gangs, it seemed exciting, they felt accepted and a part of it. But none said they didn't know what they were doing was wrong.

Would you accept your man wanting to rob a store to get some money if he was having a hard time getting a job? Mine absolutely promised me to never do anything that would get him put back in prison.

Sentencing is racist. No doubt about it. Pray for Obama and Biden! They have hard hard work before them.

tweedybird
01-12-2009, 08:52 PM
I recently saw a statistic on Prison Talk that they figure the number of whites wrongfully convicted is 1% or less too. However, blacks is 3%. Now, why didn't that surprise me?

That surprises me. If the percentage of men on death row who are exonnerated is higher than 3% how could it possibly be ONLY 1 to 3 % for cases with less scrutiny than the death penalty. We'll never really know the real number of those wrongfully convicted. Some crimes are able to be overturned because there is DNA evidence. But if someone wrongly identified them, or many other factors, it's very difficult. Read some stories on exoneration! Even times that the guilty party confesses to the crime, the innocent can still sit in prison for years. I listed a book in the book section on exonneration stories some months ago.

In Illinois there has been a lot of press about blacks arrested in Chicago being tortured until they confessed. ( Burge) I don't have any numbers handy but I think most of those inmates are still in prison.

It would be interesting to see what percentage of innocents convicted the Innocense Project would estimate.

Anjewel
01-12-2009, 09:12 PM
Well, I don't have anything to back me up either, it's been so long can't remember who said it, but I do remember it was an attorney...:rolleyes:

Anyhow, about eight or nine years ago, it was estimated that upwards of 80%, check it out...80% of cases are riddled with mistakes.

Now, some of those mistakes could go in the courts favor, but it's doubtful. A SA knows his stuff and isn't about to let one slide, however...PD's and even some attorney's just don't 'catch' everything.

I'll ask Marty and see if he remembers. It was him telling me about it.

We found some in his...his score sheet has mistakes in it. Correct, he'd only had 27 - 40 years. As it stands now, he's got four PBLs. (only because his mom hired a lawyer AFTER THE FACT, and he got it dropped from nine PBLs to four. Woopie. I know. However, also in that appeal he got the sentences changed from consecutive to concurrent. At least, if parole ever does come back....well, we ain't kidding ourselves, but he'll have as good a chance as the rest with serving them all together.

Yall have a good night.

Mark2008
01-12-2009, 10:16 PM
Yes, blacks and other minorities are treated differently. It's not just in the prison system, it's ALL of society, whether education, employment or whatever. Frankly, it just blew me away that white America would actually support a black candidate for an office such as president.

I will, however, say again that minorities in the US and Canada get a better deal than minorities in most other places. Will it ever be truly equal? I doubt it. Should it even be equal? Not my place to say.

It appears that most people on this forum see the reality and that's what matters.

Beachluver
01-12-2009, 10:50 PM
Did you ever stop to think a user can become addicted to a drug which then turns to continuous drug use and that habit as long with all the habits that come with it (for an example, stealing, pawning, lying, manipulating) becomes a lifestyle for them.. it winds up being ALL they really know as long as they are addicted.

A man who has only known the street life- never had much chance at education because either making money to support his family or himself became necc & he was unable to obtain even a minimum wage job for whatever reason.. or simply the street life was all he knew, perhaps he was an addict of the streets- that fast cash- whether it is hustling drugs, watches, clothes, whatever.. robbing someone... whatever.. it too becomes habitual...

so as you say dealers or street runners are killing people/hurting people..ruining neighborhoods because of their lifestyle.. can a user not do the same thing? Stealing to get high.. prostituing to make money(passing lord knows what to their johns)..

so by any means... one is no better than the other.. they both are doing things that may not be considered moral or legal by some.. but to compare the two is like comparing cashews and almonds.. they may be two different things but there are many similarities...


I wasn't the one who was comparing the two. Go back and read what I quoted. I never said it was moral or legal. I never said users weren't a problem.. I said USERS should NOT get the same amount of time as dealers. Users are killing themselves, which is their right to kill themselves with drugs. Dealers on the other hand are a different ball game.

Every one in the United states is required by law to attend school until the age of 16.

As for this "race" sh$t.... How many prisons aren't seprerated by race? You have hispanics from mexico, you have hispanics from the usa, whites, dark blacks, lighter skinned blacks, then you have the odd few of other races. Most call them selves some goofy gang name - wanna-be-ganag bangers.. The prisons aren't seperated by race because the prison wants it to be that way, it's all about race because prison is nothing more than which race is better than the next..a bunch of racists from EVERT race hating on one another.

ant's wife
01-13-2009, 10:59 AM
Journal of Research in Crime and Delinquency, Vol. 31, No. 2, 202-209 (1994)
DOI: 10.1177/0022427894031002007


Racial Prejudice and Support for the Death Penalty by Whites

STEVEN E. BARKAN

STEVEN F. COHN Although many studies have found that Whites are more likely than Blacks to support the death penalty, little research has investigated the reasons for this difference. Using data from the 1990 General Social Survey, this study finds that White support for capital punishment is associated with prejudice against Blacks. Final remarks discuss the implications of the results for legislative and judicial decisions regarding capital punishment.


found this article thought id share it

ant's wife
01-13-2009, 11:10 AM
okay i found what i was looking for

When communities get tough on crime, she said, more police patrols are activated, which can result in more officers in black neighborhoods and lead to more arrests for drugs there.

"Police are more likely to spot someone on a street corner than at a college or university or in a suburban home," Ms. Petteruti said. "And people that retain private counsel, and whites are more likely to do that, are less likely to go to prison."

OsosWifey
01-13-2009, 11:18 AM
This is very true, my fiance is a good example, now while albeit he was not being a great person at time of conviction, he was not the man who committed the crime. The man initially ID'ed as the suspect was described as white male with short hair and strong features. But my man is a shaved bald head (freshly shaved at the time because he had fresh new tattoo on the back of his head) he is baby faced still at almost 42 and is obviously Chicano!!! A case of a small white town wanting my man out of it. Right now his case is in federal writ and were trying desperately to find an attorney either cheap or pro bono, as were are poor people, to argue his case because he was given a 35 to life sentence for a crime we can prove he didn't commit not only by the evidence, faulty counsel, and even the man who did commit the crime has since came forward and given a legal written notarized confession of the crime.......Pathetic! I never belived things like this happened until I fell in love with a man it has happened to.:angry::confused::confused::confused::angry:

Maya2007
01-13-2009, 11:41 AM
Journal of Research in Crime and Delinquency, Vol. 31, No. 2, 202-209 (1994)
DOI: 10.1177/0022427894031002007


Racial Prejudice and Support for the Death Penalty by Whites

STEVEN E. BARKAN

STEVEN F. COHN Although many studies have found that Whites are more likely than Blacks to support the death penalty, little research has investigated the reasons for this difference. Using data from the 1990 General Social Survey, this study finds that White support for capital punishment is associated with prejudice against Blacks. Final remarks discuss the implications of the results for legislative and judicial decisions regarding capital punishment.


found this article thought id share it





I am white and I am against death penalty. Not all whites are for it. Now what does that make me?

Wobabi
01-13-2009, 11:43 AM
I wasn't the one who was comparing the two. Go back and read what I quoted. I never said it was moral or legal. I never said users weren't a problem.. I said USERS should NOT get the same amount of time as dealers. Users are killing themselves, which is their right to kill themselves with drugs. Dealers on the other hand are a different ball game.
Same game different players! USERS keep dealers on the streets so YES they should be under the JAIL reagrdless.A person who is on a suicide mission deserves jail time if their killingof themselves keeps the criminal element alive.
Same with Prostitution. Johns get arrested right along with Hoes!
Every one in the United states is required by law to attend school until the age of 16.

As for this "race" sh$t.... How many prisons aren't seprerated by race?
What race shit???

You have hispanics from mexico, you have hispanics from the usa, whites, dark blacks, lighter skinned blacks, then you have the odd few of other races. Most call them selves some goofy gang name - wanna-be-ganag bangers.. The prisons aren't seperated by race because the prison wants it to be that way, it's all about race because prison is nothing more than which race is better than the next..a bunch of racists from EVERT race hating on one another.
Prisons are racially divided because the System is racially biased plain and simple.

TedEBare
01-13-2009, 12:08 PM
Prisons are racially divided because the System is racially biased plain and simple.

Is that the whole reason? Really?

I hadn't thought about why it was so. I just know that I didn't like that G said that when he was in prison, he was forced to hang with only whites or be in danger. This only reinforced the racist thoughts that his family planted when he was a child.

It wasn't until he came to be with me and my family that he knew of anything else. He's still learning but two weeks ago, he was moved to a different cell because he wanted to pound someone that refused to keep his racist thoughts to himself.

Now we just have to work on his tendency towards violence to solve disagreements. :o

EDIT: I hope this post didn't make light of what you were trying to say. That wasn't my my intent. My thoughts are that they are racially divided for much more reason than the fact that the system is screwed up. I've read (somewhere, I really need to start writing down where I read things) that the ills in the free world are multiplied behind bars.

Mrs.Official05
01-13-2009, 12:08 PM
Lets make no mistakes about it, Race does play a BIG part in sentencing.
There have been countless of studies to prove it.
The latest changes in the crack sentencing guidelines is just a tip of the ice berg!
FAMM is an organization that has worked so hard on issues like this but due to the latest Madoff Ponzi Scheme,,they too face financial troubles keeping up the fight for Equality.:blah:

I agree! Race plays a HUGE role in sentencing.
My man went through it.
My man (black) was sentenced 3-8 years for Robbery. There was another guy (white) that night and he was sentenced to 18 months.:angry:
There was witnesses whom I spoke with that said that my man DID NOT commit the crime.
The only reason my man was at the scene was because he got a call from his so-called friend (the other guy) saying he needed a ride home.
The other is the one who went inside the store, the other guy was the one holding the gun, the other guy is the one who shot at some dude and missed..
There was a camera that taped everything. There was a black guy in the back and the white guy was holding the gun. The black guy was NOT my man the witness stated it was NOT him, but refused to testify.
So.. they used that against my man. They said that the black guy WAS my man (eventhough they knew he wasn't). And the black guy forced him to do it the white guy was scared:eek:!

Sorry.. I went all crazy.

Well I agree it plays HUGE role!

ant's wife
01-13-2009, 12:10 PM
Journal of Research in Crime and Delinquency, Vol. 31, No. 2, 202-209 (1994)
DOI: 10.1177/0022427894031002007


Racial Prejudice and Support for the Death Penalty by Whites

STEVEN E. BARKAN

STEVEN F. COHN Although many studies have found that Whites are more likely than Blacks to support the death penalty, little research has investigated the reasons for this difference. Using data from the 1990 General Social Survey, this study finds that White support for capital punishment is associated with prejudice against Blacks. Final remarks discuss the implications of the results for legislative and judicial decisions regarding capital punishment.


found this article thought id share it





I am white and I am against death penalty. Not all whites are for it. Now what does that make me?

it dosen't say all whites are for the dealth penalty, when they do these researches like all researches it depends who and where the question was aked they can't get ahold of all americans and ask them the same question this simply means that the whites they did ask about the death penalty much of it had to do with race.

im against the death penalty too now if they would came and ask us there research would of turned out much different.

canthelpbutwait
01-13-2009, 12:21 PM
OFF TOPIC BUT
This thread is a prime example of why a forum for AA would be greatly appreciated

LovingSoul4u2
01-13-2009, 01:21 PM
I truly know that race plays a major part in most sentencing. It's not something everyone wants to talk about and that's evident from a lot of the replies to this post. But just because you don't want to talk about it that won't make it go away. A lot of you made valid points. Yes there are more minority in prison than any other race, why? Because race played a part in it being so. You can't "skirt" around that issue. We've come quite a long way but we still are not there. I see it every day in small town USA where I am looked upon as a second class citizen even though I am educated. When I walk in a store or through the mall, there are still those who think they have to watch me. I love going shopping with my Mother when this happens because she truly knows how to "shut them down". :D And believe me when I or my Mother goes back in those same stores, there's a difference. Race plays a part in EVERYTHING! It shouldn't, but that's just how it is.

Then again, our justice system is so broken! "Lady Justice" is supposed to be blind, but to me her eyes are wide open. There are times you can "buy" your sentence, there are times when you can't. It depends on how someone feels that particular day. I truly think we need to start all over! Trying to fix one thing will eventually trickle down to something else. And God knows the state I live in is one of the worst as far as for needing to start completely over. My state is cutting education, health, and countless other necessary programs to keep our men locked up. How does anyone justify that?

Anjewel
01-13-2009, 05:33 PM
okay i found what i was looking for

When communities get tough on crime, she said, more police patrols are activated, which can result in more officers in black neighborhoods and lead to more arrests for drugs there.

"Police are more likely to spot someone on a street corner than at a college or university or in a suburban home," Ms. Petteruti said. "And people that retain private counsel, and whites are more likely to do that, are less likely to go to prison."

Keep 'em coming...keep 'em coming....

Anjewel
01-13-2009, 06:01 PM
it doesn't say all whites are for the death penalty, when they do these researches like all researches it depends who and where the question was asked they can't get ahold of all Americans and ask them the same question this simply means that the whites they did ask about the death penalty much of it had to do with race.

I'm against the death penalty too now if they would came and ask us there research would of turned out much different.

Naw, it says 'associated', it doesn't say 'directly linked to' and that means the ones deciphering has 'assumed', directly. They were just well educated enough in persuasion to write it like they wanted you to read it...that's all.

Also, IT DOES DEPEND ON WHO AND WHERE THE SURVEY TAKES PLACE. IT DEPENDS ON THE MANIPULATION OF THE ONES DECIPHERING THE RESULTS AND THAT WILL ALWAYS HAVE AT LEAST SOME PERSONAL SLANT ON IT.

And, another thing...all these reports are written to make a point. Do any of you honestly think these people go out and research this stuff only to report the cold hard facts just for giggles and knowledge? Ha Ha, hahaha!

They are further written by folks that have years experience on deciding how to word things so they'll be taken a certain way.

So much intelligence and wisdom on this board, I am amazed. And, that's not a slight or slant or insult or being catty or snotty. I am amazed any of you would swallow just what you READ. Doesn't matter where it came from, if money was spent on it, it has an agenda. And, every single one of you able to get to PTO, know that!!!!!!!!!

TedEBare
01-14-2009, 06:19 AM
Naw, it says 'associated', it doesn't say 'directly linked to' and that means the ones deciphering has 'assumed', directly. They were just well educated enough in persuasion to write it like they wanted you to read it...that's all.

Also, IT DOES DEPEND ON WHO AND WHERE THE SURVEY TAKES PLACE. IT DEPENDS ON THE MANIPULATION OF THE ONES DECIPHERING THE RESULTS AND THAT WILL ALWAYS HAVE AT LEAST SOME PERSONAL SLANT ON IT.

And, another thing...all these reports are written to make a point. Do any of you honestly think these people go out and research this stuff only to report the cold hard facts just for giggles and knowledge? Ha Ha, hahaha!

They are further written by folks that have years experience on deciding how to word things so they'll be taken a certain way.

So much intelligence and wisdom on this board, I am amazed. And, that's not a slight or slant or insult or being catty or snotty. I am amazed any of you would swallow just what you READ. Doesn't matter where it came from, if money was spent on it, it has an agenda. And, every single one of you able to get to PTO, know that!!!!!!!!!


So, is there nothing that you believe in?

Fyre
01-14-2009, 01:52 PM
While the color of a person's skin might play a part in their sentencing, there are other issues that can help them or hurt them, depending on how they present themselves.
There are always options for people of any color-choices to be made. Many people with varied colored skins don't do or sell drugs, don't hang out with those who do or sell drugs, and don't like a livestyle that allows them to be in a place where this goes on.
It's not about skin color so much as about other issues along with it. I don't believe any person should use this as an excuse...because then it becomes the excuse for any sort of misfortune.
There is an underculture in our country that has more to do with being poor and under-served, and in some areas that might mean that there are more people of color who fit that description. However, there are areas where others might fit that criteria.
I think many poor people get caught in the nets of the prison system because they simply lack good legal counsel and a support system.
I agree about the situations regarding drug crimes. I think many are punished very harshly for non violent crimes regarding drugs. That said, as a counselor, I have seen prison save lives of those severely addicted who would not get clean until prison made them. Not saying it's right...just that it is.
So long as it's an issue of the color of a person's skin, it's going to divide people which is sad.

ant's wife
01-14-2009, 02:04 PM
When communities get tough on crime, she said, more police patrols are activated, which can result in more officers in black neighborhoods and lead to more arrests for drugs there.

"Police are more likely to spot someone on a street corner than at a college or university or in a suburban home," Ms. Petteruti said. "And people that retain private counsel, and whites are more likely to do that, are less likely to go to prison."

no i do not tend to believe everythig i read however the article above is something i see happen everyday in my neighborhood it's a the truth

Fyre
01-15-2009, 07:33 AM
In the end, it's about money...
If you can hire a good legal counsel, the chances are you'll have a better chance of being aquitted. Thats the simple truth, and has been so long as there was crime, courts and lawyers.
The OJ trial was a good example of that. He had a great and very expensive legal team. Whether or not he was guilty is a moot point. His defense team was tight, and they fought hard.
My man, who is white, had a terrible attorney. The whole case was ruined because the original attorney provided information to law enforcement. Should he have. No. Violation. But this was never really done anything about because the case was so charged, and it was in one of the most corrupt places in the country.
If you have money, a good legal defense, you stand a better chance if charged of being aquitted.
Sadly, most of us average folks don't have mega millions to lay out for a defense team who will fight that way.
I think that many people want to make these issues racial. It's more socico-economic than cut along along anything about race. It's more about culture, and being on the lower economic threshold.
I think, too, that setting aside a space for 'AA" (odd, at first I thought Alcoholic Annoymous, and I'm thinking well, there is already a forum for those with substance abuse and alcohol issues....) would be racist. It's saying, in my opinion, that you would rather not look at the prison and incarceration as an issue...but as one seperate, which futher seperates one from others.....if you walk around taking exception to everything and everyone based on sometihng like a persons skin color (which really is such a small thing, don't you think?) or a persons religious identity, or their gender identity, or what political party they belong to....then one ceases to see the similarities each of us has in having had a loved on in prison, or having been someone who has done time.
As someone who has come from a family with lots of law enforcement officers, I can say that many things effect, also the way charges are dealt when a person is changed. Prior arrests, prior charges, all of these will effect the amount of time given. Also, how the Judge is feeling that day, how the Jury is feeling, etc.
I work with lots of parolees, and probationers. I tell them that their POs care usually just about them staying clean, staying away from others with offenses, staying away from drugs and alcohol and not getting involved in any crimminal activity. I telll them that POs don't want to have to come and violate anyone....they have tremendous caseloads, and would much rather have those who get jobs, stay out of trouble, fill in their reports and who they can leave alone. When I talk to POs, most of them are harried souls, who have 5 minutes per person assigned to them. If they see someone is not a problem, they are left alone.
Don't know how I got off on that one, but anyway, just my two cents on this.

Fyre

TympanicHippo
01-22-2009, 04:13 AM
Okay, when are we going to get over the race issue? My favorite quote is from Frederick Douglas when he says in part "pick yourselves up by your bootstraps" well, community, don't expect our President to do it for us.

We need to do it ourselves. Keep our kids in school, help them with their homework, go back to school ourselves if necessary, BE THERE.

All this yada yada about sentencing, get over it and make a change in you lives and the lives of your children. As I said pages ago, the race card will no longer work. There is a black man from a broken home, who was raised by his Grandmother who turned out to be our new President.

No excuse for the race card now unless you want to be the one pointed to as not changing the system because you sit on your butts complaining and for one, I won't tolerate it any more.

President Obama can't change things for us unless we help change our situations. So, the onus is on you. If you don't know what that means, then get a dictionary, it will be a start.

Get off your butts, stop complaining and DO SOMETHING to better your situation.

Tired of being dragged down by people who don't value family, education, sacrifice, public service and an open mind.

Again, the race issue needs to stop now. DO SOMETHING productive, stop complaining, don't expect President Obama to cater to the community, it won't happen.

TedEBare
01-22-2009, 06:59 AM
Tympanic, you sound an awful lot like my brother.

"I got where I am today by lots of hard work." And, LUCK! YOU FOOL!

Tell me that the coal miners didn't work their butts off. And, where did it get them? Two lungs full of coal dust and an early death. Tell me my mother didn't work her butt off. Raising five kids while working 2 and 3 jobs at a time.

I'm sick to death of hearing that "if you work hard and get an education blah, blah, blah..."

My brother graduated high school at the age of 17. Too young to work in the shops. And, he refused a baseball scholarship for college. He moved to the city where he worked in a plumbing and heating store that ran a plumbing and heating business out of it. He learned a lot there. He then moved back home and fell into a cushy job at another plumbing and heating business. Why? It was just the right time. Eventually, he was running the business on his own. The owners took advantage of him so, he started his own business. Luckily, he knew the right people to help him with it.

Did my brother work his butt off? You betcha. But, he had a lot of luck too. There are just as many other smart, educated, hard working men out there that don't have a thing.

Now, we're just plain, simple, white people in my family. But, to say that race doesn't play a part for some people is just plain burying your head in the sand. Racism is alive and well. You and I may not stop someone from moving up in the world due to race. But there are plenty that will. You may say that the person should back up and find a new way to break thru. And, many will. But, race still would have had an effect.

canthelpbutwait
01-22-2009, 07:14 AM
Tympanic....
to say that race doesn't play a part for some people is just plain burying your head in the sand. Racism is alive and well. You and I may not stop someone from moving up in the world due to race. But there are plenty that will. You may say that the person should back up and find a new way to break thru. And, many will. But, race still would have had an effect.



Well said Ted E Bare

BlueEyedEllie
01-22-2009, 07:25 AM
Well said Ted E Bare

i agree. racism exists even on this site. some comments made are just shocking to me and i'm NOT talking about this thread. money def. does talk though. i knew oj was guilty as sin but i also knew he'd get acquitted because of his legal team!!

jenntrav
01-22-2009, 07:39 AM
This thread is talking about alot of stuff, and I agree with some of it, but there is one thing that I disagree with......my b/f is white, and he got sentenced to 19 yrs for a crime that should have carried a sentence of 2 to 5 years, so PLEASE dont tell me that our judicial system is prejudice. I am sure that you probally feel that I am wrong, but let me just say that it happens to all races because it happened to us.

TedEBare
01-22-2009, 07:54 AM
No one said that the ONLY thing wrong with our system is racism. This just happened to be Wobabi's concern at the time she started the thread. There is plenty wrong with it.

lebanonhonkey
01-22-2009, 08:08 AM
yes race does play a big role in sentencing, if your white your screwed..i was convicted of stealing speakers at 17 yrs old and was given 20 yrs. for 2 counts stealing and 2 counts 2nd degree burglary 4;5yr sentences running consecutively...i seen hundreds of African Americans during my 13 yrs incarceration and they'd get only 15 years for a 2nd degree murder. a buddy of mine just received 7 yrs for possessing a empty meth pipe, in the no African American even gets 5 yrs for possessing a crack rock unless its labled as distribution. Fact is i seen from the inside for over a decade and can verify that race is a major factor and the white are the ones getting screwed

Fyre
01-22-2009, 08:13 AM
that said, racism cuts both ways. I'm 'white' (color of my skin). I was turned down for a college placement because of it-because they were actively seeking people of color to balance out, I guess. I found this out later. Bear in mind, I had an excellent grade point average.
Same thing later on with a job. I was told, yep, told that they were seeking someone who could better 'relate' to the population they had. It did me little good to explain that I had worked with many populations, and had run two groups that fit their demographic.
There are many opportuntities for special populations with college, learning, etc. that I certainly didn't have as a working class white person.
I beleive that the criminal justice system looks at things based on general principles. I still hold if you have a great legal team, and the money that goes with that, you are going to have a better chance than those who get Legal Aid attorneys with huge caseloads and little time for each client.
The criminal justice system is an equal opportunity one in many ways. If you have the money and legal representation, you're probably going to stand a better chance.

Just my two cents on this topic.

Fyre


{{Tympanic....
to say that race doesn't play a part for some people is just plain burying your head in the sand. Racism is alive and well. You and I may not stop someone from moving up in the world due to race. But there are plenty that will. You may say that the person should back up and find a new way to break thru. And, many will. But, race still would have had an effect.}}

TedEBare
01-22-2009, 08:24 AM
Reverse descrimination is wrong in my book, as well. I would think that ALL would agree that race shouldn't play a factor PERIOD.

I believe that my fiance got a raw deal, as well. No money for a good lawyer. Though, I DO believe that his public defender was the best there was. Having a heavy load was his only weakness.

canthelpbutwait
01-22-2009, 08:27 AM
I agree nobody said white people dont get harsh deals sometimes
but the op was posting about african americans & The judicial system..

Chellie
01-22-2009, 08:34 AM
I agree nobody said white people dont get harsh deals sometimes
but the op was posting about african americans & The judicial system..
Couldn't have said it better myself.

im his tia
01-22-2009, 09:20 AM
I was watching Larry King Live the night before the election and i almost changed the channel because REV. Al Sharpton was one of the guests. Because i have never really agreed with any thing he had to say...But, i chose to listen and he said something that caught my ear and i actually agreed with him:D when asked how he felt since it was the night before the inaugration and the first African American was to become president he said " I am so happy, but now all colors need to stand up and stop using it as an excuse" all i could say to that is AMEN!

TedEBare
01-22-2009, 09:28 AM
I'm very surprised to hear that came out of Al Sharpton's mouth. He's usually one of the first to start yelling racism.

im his tia
01-22-2009, 09:42 AM
I'm very surprised to hear that came out of Al Sharpton's mouth. He's usually one of the first to start yelling racism.

Believe it.......i almost fell off my couch. I am sure you can google it or ask for the transcripts:thumbsup:

TedEBare
01-22-2009, 09:45 AM
Oh, I'm not doubting you, Tia. Just surprised. But then, changing his views to be more in line with Obama's might just be a smart move on his part.

Waitin_4_J
01-22-2009, 10:22 AM
What really gets me is when people start sceaming "get an education, get a job, the choice is yours, etc." While I normally agree with this how can anyone obtain this when the system is set up for them to fail? Come on we all know the truth- minorites are not given the same opportunities that the majority are! This society we live in is ruled by the rich white man! It is set up for the rich white man to succeed! Plain and simple.

Statistics show that a good legal defense team will make a difference in convictions and sentencing... well who are the ones able to afford said team? Sure there are a few minorities lucky enough to be in this category, but it's pretty obvious that the system is designed in such a way that it will forever remain dominated by the majority.

This is America and we are all equal right? Hell no! Look around you and you will see that we are not treated that way. You have an entire population of people that have been discriminated against from the get go... there is NO denying this. While racism may not be so overtly obvious today it is still very much alive, but I don't think the rich white man wants to be labeled as such; it's not politically correct these days. And, in my opinion, letting racism, classism, sexism, etc continue to flourish under the radar is very dangerous and harmful. The majority still rules and they are managing to distort our views so much that a lot of us can't see what they are really doing. Until you walk a mile in the shoes of a minority I do not see how you can offer up such simple solutions as get an education, get a job, etc. Those things are easy for some to get- specifically those the system are designed for! Not those that the system is designed to opress!

Prison is a great way to continue the opression of those society doesn't want to see succeed! The more we deny this issue and refuse to discuss it the more it grows...

Fyre
01-22-2009, 10:48 AM
This really isn't a valid argument.
I work with kids who have come from some of the most war torn countries in the world. Many of them have no real 'formal' education, because if you want an education on these countires, you must pay for them. However, when I met each of these children, they can all read, write, and speak a language that is not their native tongue!
They just inspire me every day.
In this country, education is a right, not a privlidge. I worked in the Public Schools, and I met kids who wanted to learn and kids who didn't. There are more resources than ever to assist children in getting an education. This isn't decided on a childs race, creed, or economic status.

There are private schools that accept vouchers, as well. And there are always scholarships. Children in this country have many more options than in other places, so this argument sort of bothers me, because in many ways, these children have many more options that children from other countries without our resources.

Also, I come from a family of working class white folks. I think that my family and to a great extent my neighbors certainly didn't have the opportunties that many others have, simply based on the color of their skin.

You should know as well, that this has little to do with color, so much as culture.




((What really gets me is when people start sceaming "get an education, get a job, the choice is yours, etc." While I normally agree with this how can anyone obtain this when the system is set up for them to fail? Come on we all know the truth- minorites are not given the same opportunities that the majority are! This society we live in is ruled by the rich white man! It is set up for the rich white man to succeed! Plain and simple.))

BlueEyedEllie
01-22-2009, 11:14 AM
I was watching Larry King Live the night before the election and i almost changed the channel because REV. Al Sharpton was one of the guests. Because i have never really agreed with any thing he had to say...But, i chose to listen and he said something that caught my ear and i actually agreed with him:D when asked how he felt since it was the night before the inaugration and the first African American was to become president he said " I am so happy, but now all colors need to stand up and stop using it as an excuse" all i could say to that is AMEN!
al sharpton is such a turn off for me. but what he said on larry is excellent. i'm against racism involving ANY color.

TedEBare
01-22-2009, 11:25 AM
al sharpton is such a turn off for me. but what he said on larry is excellent. i'm against racism involving ANY color.


And, there is racism towards every color. I've had people assume that I was going to be a racist due to my color and where I live.

My daughter's girlfriend is from Indianapolis. She called my home last year and I couldn't understand a word she was saying. She was using her street (?) language and mumbling like you wouldn't believe! I told her to speak up and to stop using the street slang so I could understand her. She automatically assumed that I didn't like her. NO! I just wanted to understand her! It didn't have anything to do with the color of her skin, her education, or lack thereof, her sexual preferences or any of the other stereotypes she could come up with. She and I are fairly tight now. lol

im his tia
01-22-2009, 11:34 AM
What really gets me is when people start sceaming "get an education, get a job, the choice is yours, etc." While I normally agree with this how can anyone obtain this when the system is set up for them to fail? Come on we all know the truth- minorites are not given the same opportunities that the majority are! This society we live in is ruled by the rich white man! It is set up for the rich white man to succeed! Plain and simple.

Statistics show that a good legal defense team will make a difference in convictions and sentencing... well who are the ones able to afford said team? Sure there are a few minorities lucky enough to be in this category, but it's pretty obvious that the system is designed in such a way that it will forever remain dominated by the majority.

This is America and we are all equal right? Hell no! Look around you and you will see that we are not treated that way. You have an entire population of people that have been discriminated against from the get go... there is NO denying this. While racism may not be so overtly obvious today it is still very much alive, but I don't think the rich white man wants to be labeled as such; it's not politically correct these days. And, in my opinion, letting racism, classism, sexism, etc continue to flourish under the radar is very dangerous and harmful. The majority still rules and they are managing to distort our views so much that a lot of us can't see what they are really doing. Until you walk a mile in the shoes of a minority I do not see how you can offer up such simple solutions as get an education, get a job, etc. Those things are easy for some to get- specifically those the system are designed for! Not those that the system is designed to opress!

Prison is a great way to continue the opression of those society doesn't want to see succeed! The more we deny this issue and refuse to discuss it the more it grows...

While i agree with some of what you said....i beg to differ also. My husband is from about as third world as it gets (Honduras) only second to Africa in the rising AIDS population. No government subsidies, no financial aid NOTHING! From the time he could walk he was working on his parents farm. At 6 he was herding cows to and from pasture. And this was in the morning B4 school. Only got one new pair of shoes a year. If his feet grew before the year was up or the shoes wore out...TOUGH...he went barefoot. He had to leave school at 11 because his older brother got married and he had to take his place fulltime on the farm. At 24 he decided to come to the United States. From the stories he had always heard, everyone here was rich and life was easy. When i met him two years later he was working 16 hour days at 6 or 7 dollars an hour, NO OVERTIME! He didnt speak english, and he NEVER complained. Now, (like i said before), we are business owners, have a new house, two (Almost new 2005,2008) vehicles and can afford the good life. But, let me assure you this had NOTHING to do with MY race. This was all to his hard work and determination. He has since gotten his GED and is taking classes online. He has never commited a crime to get ahead. Blood, sweat and tears. True Grit. Thats all it took. Not bad for a minority:thumbsup: No luck nvolved. He worked his aZZ of to get where we are. No, not everyone has it in them, but i bet if you looked there are a lot out there just like him.....look at our new president.......not bad for a man from a poor man from Kenya and a poor mother from.......Kansas:thumbsup:

BlueEyedEllie
01-22-2009, 11:37 AM
While i agree with some of what you said....i beg to differ also. My husband is from about as third world as it gets (Honduras) only second to Africa in the rising AIDS population. No government subsidies, no financial aid NOTHING! From the time he could walk he was working on his parents farm. At 6 he was herding cows to and from pasture. And this was in the morning B4 school. Only got one new pair of shoes a year. If his feet grew before the year was up or the shoes wore out...TOUGH...he went barefoot. He had to leave school at 11 because his older brother got married and he had to take his place fulltime on the farm. At 24 he decided to come to the United States. From the stories he had always heard, everyone here was rich and life was easy. When i met him two years later he was working 16 hour days at 6 or 7 dollars an hour, NO OVERTIME! He didnt speak english, and he NEVER complained. Now, (like i said before), we are business owners, have a new house, two (Almost new 2005,2008) vehicles and can afford the good life. But, let me assure you this had NOTHING to do with MY race. This was all to his hard work and determination. He has since gotten his GED and is taking classes online. He has never commited a crime to get ahead. Blood, sweat and tears. True Grit. Thats all it took. Not bad for a minority:thumbsup: No luck nvolved. He worked his aZZ of to get where we are. No, not everyone has it in them, but i bet if you looked there are a lot out there just like him.....look at our new president.......not bad for a man from a poor man from Kenya and a poor mother from.......Kansas:thumbsup:
wow, he sounds like a very special man!!!!! there are alot of men black, white or whatever who should learn his work ethic!!!

TedEBare
01-22-2009, 11:41 AM
Work ethic and education alone, is not the only factor in getting ahead. As I stated before, there are PLENTY of men ( and women) with good work ethic and an education that got nowhere. I really get tired of hearing people say this all the time. Like those of us that don't "make it to the big time" are somehow lazy and ignorant.

im his tia
01-22-2009, 12:07 PM
Work ethic and education alone, is not the only factor in getting ahead. As I stated before, there are PLENTY of men ( and women) with good work ethic and an education that got nowhere. I really get tired of hearing people say this all the time. Like those of us that don't "make it to the big time" are somehow lazy and ignorant.

I didnt mean to offend anyone. Im tire too. Most people (whites included) are so busy with the poor me BS that they dont try to rise above it. A lot of those complaining about the hand life dealt them, dealt and are continuing to deal the cards themselves. I was just saying, if my husband can do it, others can too.

im his tia
01-22-2009, 12:11 PM
wow, he sounds like a very special man!!!!! there are alot of men black, white or whatever who should learn his work ethic!!!

Thanks. I am so proud of him. He has his faults, some pretty big ones......But, for having a 6th grade education, he is one of the most intelligent people i have ever met. He has certainly made me sit back and take stock a couple of times in our years together. If anyone would hear his WHOLE story, they would get on their knees and thank GOD that they were born in this country. Very humbling.VERY!

makayla22
01-22-2009, 06:20 PM
This thread is talking about alot of stuff, and I agree with some of it, but there is one thing that I disagree with......my b/f is white, and he got sentenced to 19 yrs for a crime that should have carried a sentence of 2 to 5 years, so PLEASE dont tell me that our judicial system is prejudice. I am sure that you probally feel that I am wrong, but let me just say that it happens to all races because it happened to us.


I didnt want to get involved in all this...but I dont think anybody said just bc your white you wont get dealt a harsh sentence. White people will get tough sentences just as bad as a black mans. But at the end of the day...it happens alot more if its a black man standing there...that part you can not deny. They look at a black man...who yeah committed a craime and automatically lable him as a thug...that aint ever gonna change...so lock him up and throw away the key...they dont think of him as a man...they see him as a black man that committed a crime..and thats all he's ever gonna do...thats all he's ever gonna be good at..he's never gonna wake up one day and decide to change his life and do better...no. None of that crosses their mind. And you know it crosses their mind when they see a young white man standing there..they think "if only he could get into school....something to justify....its not true everytime..but more than the other.

misscrys
01-22-2009, 07:25 PM
I didnt want to get involved in all this...but I dont think anybody said just bc your white you wont get dealt a harsh sentence. White people will get tough sentences just as bad as a black mans. But at the end of the day...it happens alot more if its a black man standing there...that part you can not deny. They look at a black man...who yeah committed a craime and automatically lable him as a thug...that aint ever gonna change...so lock him up and throw away the key...they dont think of him as a man...they see him as a black man that committed a crime..and thats all he's ever gonna do...thats all he's ever gonna be good at..he's never gonna wake up one day and decide to change his life and do better...no. None of that crosses their mind. And you know it crosses their mind when they see a young white man standing there..they think "if only he could get into school....something to justify....its not true everytime..but more than the other.
just curious how do u kno thats what their thinkin an thats what they all think i dont kno if its true or not but how can u be so sure

canthelpbutwait
01-22-2009, 07:27 PM
I didnt want to get involved in all this...but I dont think anybody said just bc your white you wont get dealt a harsh sentence. White people will get tough sentences just as bad as a black mans. But at the end of the day...it happens alot more if its a black man standing there...that part you can not deny. They look at a black man...who yeah committed a craime and automatically lable him as a thug...that aint ever gonna change...so lock him up and throw away the key...they dont think of him as a man...they see him as a black man that committed a crime..and thats all he's ever gonna do...thats all he's ever gonna be good at..he's never gonna wake up one day and decide to change his life and do better...no. None of that crosses their mind. And you know it crosses their mind when they see a young white man standing there..they think "if only he could get into school....something to justify....its not true everytime..but more than the other.


It is the truth whether people realize it or not. My man is perfect proof- he was denied parole today- got EEC, completed EVERY program the facility has to offer, never was in trouble in there hmm not to mention all the programs he had get accepted into when he came home, letters of reference a 5 year goal plan etc etc et (minus how long his CORNROWS are- c let a white man have a ponytail though), got a trade- the whole nine- his charges non violent lowest felony possible- had he been white, I bet he woulda been approved. :blah:

misscrys
01-22-2009, 07:34 PM
but u dont kno that ive been readin here on pto today an post after post its like too much about black an white whats up with that damn we all are here because our loved one wether they are black white mexican freakin purple whatever they are they are incarcerated right now im not understandin this whole thing about race why its such an issue right now i thought this country was headin in a better direction but i dont think so so anywayz with all that in mind its pretty much not worth reading about or logging back on to this site

canthelpbutwait
01-22-2009, 07:40 PM
but u dont kno that ive been readin here on pto today an post after post its like too much about black an white whats up with that damn we all are here because our loved one wether they are black white mexican freakin purple whatever they are they are incarcerated right now im not understandin this whole thing about race why its such an issue right now i thought this country was headin in a better direction but i dont think so so anywayz with all that in mind its pretty much not worth reading about or logging back on to this site

ON pto you musty learn EVERYONE has opinions and every one will share them - you DO NOT have to agree- if you see a thread you dont like then pass it by- no need giving up on a beneficial site because you dont like some peoples opinions. :thumbsup:

BlueEyedEllie
01-22-2009, 09:11 PM
I didnt want to get involved in all this...but I dont think anybody said just bc your white you wont get dealt a harsh sentence. White people will get tough sentences just as bad as a black mans. But at the end of the day...it happens alot more if its a black man standing there...that part you can not deny. They look at a black man...who yeah committed a craime and automatically lable him as a thug...that aint ever gonna change...so lock him up and throw away the key...they dont think of him as a man...they see him as a black man that committed a crime..and thats all he's ever gonna do...thats all he's ever gonna be good at..he's never gonna wake up one day and decide to change his life and do better...no. None of that crosses their mind. And you know it crosses their mind when they see a young white man standing there..they think "if only he could get into school....something to justify....its not true everytime..but more than the other.
i don't like to say much either cause i honestly don't know alot but i will say in my area this is very very true. when i turned marc in for walking off work release not only did our small town cops arrive but state too and wanted to use a dog to search my car for drugs and everything. marc had no drugs on him nor had he done anything violent to warrant such an overreaction. he was even asked"what are you doing in our town??" if you can believe that.

Mark2008
01-23-2009, 01:45 AM
This is America and we are all equal right? Hell no! Look around you and you will see that we are not treated that way. You have an entire population of people that have been discriminated against from the get go... there is NO denying this. While racism may not be so overtly obvious today it is still very much alive, but I don't think the rich white man wants to be labeled as such; it's not politically correct these days.



No, we are not equal. Sorry that someone with high ideals tried to convince you of that. Take even a cursory look around any city or town and you will quickly see that not everyone or everything is equal.

Do we all live in the same type of houses? Do we all drive the same type of cars? Heck, or even HAVE cars? Do all jobs pay the same wages? Of course not!! There is discrimination of many types, not simply limited to race.

Can you point to one time in American or Canadian history when black persons (or other ethnic minorities) have been regarded on equal footing with the white majority? Did you know that the same persons who penned the US Declaration of Independence, claiming that "all men are created equal" were the same men who owned slaves? Those same men would later decree in the US Constitution that slaves were 3/5 of a person (a compromise with those who wanted slaves declared as NO person at all, but merely property). Yeah, those founding fathers had some high ideals, alright!!

God in heaven decided to create me as a white male and I do not question that. I believe each person should take pride in whomever God made them to be. However, I DO understand the frustration that many minorities feel. The problems are very real. If I were in their shoes, I would probably take a long look at finding a place where I would be treated fairly and equally. Do you want a fair shake or do you want to fight uphill all your life in a white man's world? That is a decision that only you can make.

I have said before and will repeat here that minorities in the US and Canada are treated better than minorities in many other countries. If I were to move to China, would I expect to be treated equaly with the natives? Not hardly!!

I understand that generations ago, many black persons were brought to America against their will as slaves. I also believe God is judging the sin of slavery that America has committed. That being said, it is up to YOU to determine the course of your life. You know the system. You may not LIKE it, but you understand the realities. The choice you make is up to you.

What I see is tons and tons and tons of minorities who want to have it both ways. They want to live in America and share in the white society's (relative) wealth. But then something goes wrong and they feel they are somehow "victimized" by the system they CHOSE to participate in.

jenntrav
01-23-2009, 07:31 AM
Thankyou Mark!!!

jenntrav
01-23-2009, 07:33 AM
no, we are not equal. Sorry that someone with high ideals tried to convince you of that. Take even a cursory look around any city or town and you will quickly see that not everyone or everything is equal.

Do we all live in the same type of houses? Do we all drive the same type of cars? Heck, or even have cars? Do all jobs pay the same wages? Of course not!! There is discrimination of many types, not simply limited to race.

Can you point to one time in american or canadian history when black persons (or other ethnic minorities) have been regarded on equal footing with the white majority? Did you know that the same persons who penned the us declaration of independence, claiming that "all men are created equal" were the same men who owned slaves? Those same men would later decree in the us constitution that slaves were 3/5 of a person (a compromise with those who wanted slaves declared as no person at all, but merely property). Yeah, those founding fathers had some high ideals, alright!!

God in heaven decided to create me as a white male and i do not question that. I believe each person should take pride in whomever god made them to be. However, i do understand the frustration that many minorities feel. The problems are very real. If i were in their shoes, i would probably take a long look at finding a place where i would be treated fairly and equally. Do you want a fair shake or do you want to fight uphill all your life in a white man's world? That is a decision that only you can make.

I have said before and will repeat here that minorities in the us and canada are treated better than minorities in many other countries. If i were to move to china, would i expect to be treated equaly with the natives? Not hardly!!

I understand that generations ago, many black persons were brought to america against their will as slaves. I also believe god is judging the sin of slavery that america has committed. That being said, it is up to you to determine the course of your life. You know the system. You may not like it, but you understand the realities. The choice you make is up to you.

What i see is tons and tons and tons of minorities who want to have it both ways. They want to live in america and share in the white society's (relative) wealth. But then something goes wrong and they feel they are somehow "victimized" by the system they chose to participate in.


very well put!!!

im his tia
01-23-2009, 09:31 AM
very well put!!!
ditto

TiredOfTexas
01-23-2009, 10:44 AM
Race plays a huge part in sentencing. Statistics prove it year after year. However, so do other things. Being poor is the greatest divider of justice with race, gender and education falling right behind it. If you happen to be a poor, black, uneducated and male you will not get justice. No doubt about it. There are people out ther trying to change this, one accused at a time. Check out this program in Georgia called the Georgia Justice Project. I am trying to start a program like it in Texas. If you are interested in helping, PM me.

http://gjp.org/

jadah
01-26-2009, 01:35 AM
Heritage does play a part in the sentencing.
In my husband's case prison time is a family tradition. His dad, uncles and older cousins all have done time.
The social class he grew up in also played a part in the sentencing.
In fact the courts never seem to forget my husband no matter how long he is gone. My husband commands attention wherever he goes. He also happens to be white.

TympanicHippo
01-31-2009, 04:44 PM
But, race still would have had an effect.[/quote]

Race is only an issue if you let it, which it seems you are and shame on you for thinking that it's also due to luck that your brother did so well.

He worked for what he wanted and MADE opportunities for himself. Did he possibly have the opportunity to be in the right place at the right time, yes but it was because he worked toward it and had a clear idea of where the "luck" was.

Race has nothing to do with our willingness to get ahead unless we choose to rely on comfortable subsidies and don't strive for excellence for ourselves or our children through education and new experiences.

If you voted for President Obama then get up off your butts and do something to help him succeed, don't expect him to give you a great job by doing nothing.

If you didn't vote for President Obama, well then sit on your butt and we'll have another 8 years of no education, no health care, no help for the prison system with a Republican president after 2012.

Your choice. Get over it. We are a homogeneous nation and poor whites, blacks, Indians, Hispanics and all immigrants will be in a much more dire situation if we don't help this country get back on its feet.

If you want to make a difference in the system then get your butt into a position that you are being taken seriously. A reasoned, informed, educated knowledge of the system, not an emotional one.

Bottom line, people who whine but aren't willing to do hold no sway with me.

DO SOMETHING, STOP WHINING.:angry:

canthelpbutwait
01-31-2009, 05:07 PM
I dont think it was whining I think the OP was just pointing out something that is factual and actually was on Law & Order today which reminded me of this thread. By bringing this to peoples attention perhaps she was trying to have people want to help in doing something about it. One persons voice can be heard but when we UNITE together a lot more can be done :thumbsup:

Chellie
01-31-2009, 05:30 PM
I agree the OP was not whining...she was simply stating a fact. You might not agree but it's kind of hard to argue with facts.

TedEBare
02-02-2009, 08:25 AM
Don't "shame on me". I have love and great respect for how hard my brother worked/works. I'm simply stating that others have worked JUST as hard and JUST as long, if not longer and harder and got no place with it.

And, I'm sorry to disagree but if someone chooses to put a road block in your way due to race, the road block IS there. Regardless of what you chose to do to get around it, race was a factor. Ignoring the fact that racism is alive and well and calling people whiners, doesn't mean it isn't there. Having to go around the road block may make the person stronger but they still have every right to complain that the thing is still there. And, if they point it out enough, maybe it will eventually be removed.

By the way, I am not letting race be an issue. I happen to be a middle-aged white woman. I don't allow race to be an issue in any part of my life. And, I have taught my children to not allow race to be an issue in their lives. In other words, we don't discriminate due to race, sexual preference, age, etc... I'm doing my part in my part of the world. I teach my loved ones, by example and by words, that discrimination is WRONG. And, every chance I get, I teach acquaintences and strangers the same. My children and grandchildren spread the teachings.

But, I won't candycoat the world for them. I teach them that hard work and living right IS reward in itself. I don't tell them that if they work hard they will one day be rich. I teach them that they can be happy with themselves if they do.

As I stated above, I have great love and respect for my brother. However, all of his hard work and perseverence have a cost. He has a spoiled wife and spoiled children that think money is the only important thing in life. My brother fights it but he, also, puts great stock in his personal belongings and status in the world. To the point of being a braggert and being too prideful, at times.

I think I'll just keep my humble little life.