I was just wondering, thinking about things and I was wondering if any of you ever had any fears, or doubts about the one you love that have murdered someone in the past, if they could do it again? Have you once had a simple moment of doubt about your future with him? I mean, I know you have seen the good side of the person you love, you know the possibilities of this person, but does it ever scare you to know that there is this underlying ability to kill somone?

I'm not trying to be mean asking this, I am really searching my soul for some answers and would like to pick your minds on this.

Thanks
Joy

joy: i think it's natural to have doubts. in the cases of my "boys", i have really had to spend a lot of time just focusing on who they are NOW, not what they were in a moment of time in the past. one of them is, i think innocent, the other freely admits to his violent offense. i just go by my gut instinct when it comes to both of them ~ i have never felt threatened by either of them, while in their physical presence or otherwise. both are warm, tender, loving people. i can't say i have NEVER doubted their sincerity. but when those doubts creep in, i remind myself of MY personal experiences and the lack of any fear or anything resembling while being in their physical or metaphysical space, and that generally sets me straight!

Since I'm not involved in such a situation, I can only reason what might be.

I would think, if a person DOESN'T have these thoughs, wonderments, there really not that involved with the person. In my thinking, they would be filling personal need(s) at arms lenght (as the saying goes).

Now, with one that is looking at being released at some point in time is another thing. Loving them and being with them 24/7 should be a concern, I would think. It's not much different then having a young teenage girl in the house and bring home a SO, there should be a concern! Also, one that's had a big drug problem and the things assocated with that, should be a concern too.

One needs to look at the odds, (percentages) and they are "odds" (not 100%). Inspite of the media, there are two crimes that are rarely repeated, by those that have done a large block of time and /or recieved rehab, Murder and Rape.

The question too ask self is: Do I love the whole person, or the part "I" see or "think" I see? A lot of that lay's behind the motive for the crime, what is known about the person, before the crime and what is displayed now.

Another question is: is the term "criminal" in the past tense, or one temporarily
out of commission? And that question hold true for "any" inmate! And I see, from reading for some months now, there are some that are operating on blind faith and hope!! Actions and reactions speak LOUDLY of a person's make-up, under adverse conditions!!

I will add here, what I see in reguards to the type of "person's" I see here at PTO:

There's not one, victims included, that do not share the same personality treat's....................... as "HELPER'S"!

This "people group" has a strong desire and gain's much satisfaction, (purpose), by reaching out too the UNDER-DOG'S of Society in which they live. This world would be a better place if "WE" (yes I'm one of ya'll's) were in the majority.

OOOPPpssss, sorry Joy, I gotta way from you reason for your post. :-(

JOY

NO, I HAVE NO DOUBTS NOR AM I AFRAID THAT BUTCH WILL KILL A HUMAN BEING AGAIN... I MIGHT IN THE CIRCUMSTANCE HE WAS IN, BUT I WILL ASSURE YOU HE WILL DIE HIMSELF BEFORE HE WOULD EVER KILL AGAIN...

THIS IS SO VERY TRUE OF MANY OF THE INMATES AND FAMILIES I HAVE MET HERE IN NC ON DEATH ROW.... MANY THINGS LED UP TO THEIR COMMITTING MURDER. THEY JUST DID NOT PICK UP A GUN OR KNIFE AND GO OUT TO KILL SOMEONE. THINGS HAPPENED. THEY DID NOT HAVE THEIR FULL ABILITY TO THINK DUE TO DRUGS OR ALCOHOL. YES, THEY ARE VERY REMORSEFUL AND IF THEY WERE AT ALL ABLE TO COME HOME, THEN IT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN... YOU DO NOT FORGET KILLING SOMEONE. IT NEVER LEAVES YOU DAY OR NIGHT....

I AGREE THAT THERE ARE SOME REAL BAD PEOPLE OUT THERE THAT DO VERY HORRID THINGS, BUT MOST OF THE PEOPLE ON DEATH ROW RIGHT NOW HAVE HAD A VERY BAD CIRCUMSTANCE IN THEIR LIVES THAT CREATED THE PERSON THAT KILLED SOMEONE.... OUR SOCIETY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT...

MY LOVE
DONNA

I've learned through years about being around and working with all sorts of people, that it is really difficult to predict just WHAT a person is capable of when the circumstances are right.... Which is why I look so much for how aware people are about their part in setting up their circumstances..... How aware are people of the influence of those they choose to spend time with and call friends, how aware are people of their support and resources.... I don't know if that makes any sense.....
I know that if JD faced that SAME situation in 5 years that he did back in '93... he would make different choices....
But I also now have a much deeper understanding of the saying "but for the grace of God, there go I".....

Thank you all, I really needed to hear what you said. B-Ray, you didn't get off of the subject, you made perfect sense.

Love you all
Joy

Thanks Joy for bringing this up and I have chosen to walk down this path. Working in the Criminal Justice System, I've met, heard the stories, seen the pain of victims and the accused...never would I have thought I, Pam, would get to know or chose to give my love to a man convicted of murder. Being engaged to a cop at one time, I would have thought I would have felt 'safe' with him, no not him, but the label was a form of security, I guess. I've never been or at least stayed in a relationship with a man before that I would question my own safety.
As for who I love now, I've explore several of my thoughts and feelings about him and his conviction. For myself, I had to read the transcript and research his case, to decide for myself.
B-Ray brings up excellent points...as to who I 'really' see or as to who I 'think' I see. I have to go on my instinct, what he says, and how consistent he is. Am I afraid of him? Absoulutely not!
We've had several conversations about the victim and the sorrow and remorse I see from him is for the life that was lost.
I wonder about the future, I wonder if our total different backgrounds will mesh, I wonder what we'll be like when he gets out. I don't pretend to have blinders on that this is going to be easy and sometimes I wonder if I have what it takes...(This is doubting myself and the judgement I will face from friends, family, etc.) Yep I wonder about a lot of things, but the one thing I don't wonder or doubt, is that I have met an amazing man, whom I built a friendship with, that in turn, became a love that is so very special to me...
I guess I'll just stop now, or I'll start writing my own story, which I'd rather save for another thread...and not take the room or attention away from this so very important topic and point!

Pamela, thank you. My friend has been so honest with me, he even sent me all of his legal materials for me to read, has answered all of my questions and has totally been honest. In fact, in some ways, evidence points to the other guy having pulled the trigger, but he actually said that he wasn't going to ever lie to me and that no, he was the one who pulled the trigger. There were three other people involved, one was released with no charges, one copied a plea to testify against the other two and the other guy also got convicted and sentenced to death. They all three pointed their fingers at him since he confessed from the very first time he was in police custody.

Still, there is this little voice in the back of my mind........Maybe it is also because I spent 13 years with a violent alcoholic that this doubt would be for anyone.

Thanks for the input.

Joy

Joy-
I understand what you mean by doubts. One day this week I started having my doubts too. Then thought it was just because of the heat because he gets irritable with the heat. Something inside me, an I don't know why, just got scared. He started putting the blame on me because his dad won't answer the phone or write him back, because his brother hasn't wrote him back either. I asked him if he'd heard anything from his papers that he'd sent in in late June, he replied with a NO! I suggested to him and told him that he didn't have to if he didn't want to that it was up to him to write these people that he sent his papers out to so he'd get an idea of what was going on and this was his reply. "FINE IF IT WILL MAKE YOU HAPPY AND IT WILL SHUT YOU UP I'LL WRITE TO THEM BUT THEY AREN'T GOING TO JUST THROW EVERYONE ELSE'S ASIDE AND PUT MINE FIRST!" I asked him how he paid the $50 dollars to the guy that did his papers and he got angry about that and told me that he'd get in trouble telling me over the phone so I told him to just put it on paper and I get this response-"YA KNOW YOU ARE BEING TOO D--- NOSY TODAY BUT I PAID HIM THROUGH THE STORE I BOUGHT HIM THINGS THERE NOW WHEN THEY LISTEN TO THIS I WILL BE IN TROUBLE THANK YOU!" I was very,very hurt and for a brief moment have thought about giving him his engagement ring back, but I can't I love him too much and just thought it was the heat doing it because he doesn't like heat and humidity. Joy please tell me what you think or anyone for that matter.

Michelle, I don't really know what to tell you. You may be right and it's just the heat and frustration. From what I read from EVERYONE this seems to be a trait that the inmates seem to inherit. Get mad at wife because they can't yell at anyone else because they will get in trouble.

Then, I understand your concern. If he gets mad like that on the phone... then what would he do in person.............?

I guess the best thing is to just sit, wait, watch the pattern of his outbursts and see if it is the heat and frustration, or if it's something else. Also, in a few days, after he calms down and you calm down, write him and tell him of your fears.

I wish I could be of more help. I guess we all have to really sit down, look, listen and watch. Not always feel with our heart, but listen to our mind too.

Take Care
Joy

guys

There is a great deal of flustration within the cells due to many things. The Guards, The Heat, The agravation etc. you can go on and on. Yes, They do that their flustrations on the people they love because they are the only ones that they trust. They cannot explode in the Cell Blocki if they did, it would be lock down.

Don't worry about the little things. They are human and living in a very degrading society. But, Do notice the Big Things.... How they handle real problesm... Do they deal with Anger? Etc ETC.

You will know... Listen to that little voice inside of you, not to anyone human being... That little voice will tell you the truth always.

My love
Donna

These questions and doubts are perfectly normal. My husband is a non-violent offender, but has a long criminal history of property crimes related to supporting a drug habit. I am also a recovering drug addict and my husband and I have used many, many drugs together. We were a modern day Bonnie and Clyde to some degree and together we've done most everything to get dope. We bring out the best in each other, but at times we bring out the worst in each other. I don't worry about him physically harming me, but I do worry about returning to the drugs (either one of us) when we are reunited. Because in active addiction we simply kill ourselves in more ways than one. Our entire relationship revolved around dope and we've never lived together clean - we were using buddies more than husband and wife. I got clean the day after he went to jail - too little too late. I know I love him, but I don't know what kind of relationship we'll have once he comes home, when the drugs will again be available.

What I've done, that helps me more than anything is I've told him everything I've just written in this post. We openly talk about OUR doubts and fears and communicate to one another our plans and goals for the future and how we are going to handle life's obstacles.

Keep the communication open and listen to your heart.

OK, how many have run this situation throught the thinking mill?

How does Societies reactions. present and furture figure into these fit's of doubts? Some have already been involved, others only hear as a perlude of what's to come. How much weight does this carry, when things are going smoothly and how much, when things are in an uproar?

It could be an underlying factor? It's said, "doing time together" which means, doing rejection together also! Everytime a partner/mate is PUTDOWN by Society in general, your going to have to deal with it also! Depending how well prepaired he/she is, well determine how tore up you'll be over the situation!

I think you have to consider a lot of things. One of my best friends in the world is a counselor, and before I married my husband, I talked with him about the situation. I think his advice is the best I've ever heard. He said, "You have to think with both your heart and your head." So, I found out everything I could about my fiance - everything about his crime AND his background. In short, I did a thorough investigation. This is my life and my future, and I'm not about to throw it away on somebody who isn't who I thought he is.

I also put him to the test about little things. I'd ask him questions during the course of our visits about things that he could easily lie about, and then I'd check it out to see if he had lied to me. He never did.

I know this sounds extreme, BUT I have a peace of mind that I might not have otherwise. In the beginning, I did wonder if the side he showed me was the real thing or if he was allowing me to see only what he wanted me to see. My research results allowed me to relax and ENJOY falling in love with him.

Through the years, I have found that there are some wives and girlfriends who truly do need to be afraid of the person they have become involved with. I do not believe that a man will treat a woman better once he comes home than he does on the inside. I believe that this business of "I'm only acting this way because prison is stressing me out" is a cop-out. My husband is stressed to the limit right now - "on the edge," as he puts it. But, he doesn't take it out on me. For the past two weeks, he's needed to vent a lot, but he hasn't jumped down my throat once.

One thing I'd recommend, Joy: If you didn't know your husband/boyfriend personally before he went to prison, I'd go to the courthouse and get a criminal background check done on him to see if he has been involved in other violent crimes. Or, you can do it online. Either way, it will cost you a few dollars - probably less than $20 - but I'd consider it money well-spent.

I'd also find out about his behavior while in prison. If your state doesn't have an online database of prisoner information, I think you could probably find out how to get this information by calling the state offices or by calling the DA's office to see if they can help you.

You might also want to see a counselor and share some of his letters and stories about your relationship to get an unbiased, objective analysis of the situation. I would have done this if it weren't for having a counselor friend who could help.

I think you're a very brave and very smart woman to ask the questions you've asked. Be pro-active about your doubts and fears. Don't rely on your heart. Give yourself the concrete evidence that you DESERVE in order to have peace of mind.

Wishing good things for you!


p.s. I didn't tell him I was checking him out until after he passed all the tests. He wasn't upset about it, either!

Wow, thank you Bookgirl....... What you said makes a whole lot of sense. I've know this guy for 5 months and he has never taken any anger out on me. He has answered every question I have asked, he has sent me all of his legal papers, he even wrote a letter to his lawyer telling him that anything he had to tell him, he would also like for me to know also. He has been on DR for 4 years and has not gotten into any trouble.... so I feel that speaks a lot. (Especially since he is at Polunsky)

However, I am going to give things a lot time. I have always been told that someone cannot keep up a false front for very long... it will eventually come out. I wish I had a counselor to talk to, but I don't. The ones I have been to would totally freek out and probably think I have lost my mind and admit me to the Psych ward!! :D

Thanks for your input

Joy

There have been some excellent points made in this thread... I have just a few more thoughts to add... one of the things that has increased my confidence in JD is his desire for me to get to know his family.... And even though I didn't know him before he was incarcerated, they have known him throughout!! :) I can kind of "compare" notes with them and we have all become very close.... They are more than willing to talk to me about not only his assets and strengths but also his "issues" and weaknesses.... I guess that just makes me more confident that he isn't somehow "fronting" with me.... and the very fact that he was so eager for me to get close to them....

jds: how lucky you are to have that relationship with jd's family! that's awesome!

guys and gals-
As I stated in the beginning of the thread about Ron and his yelling at me over the phone, I gave him some cool off time and myself as well. When he called on Sunday, I then asked if he was in a better mood or if I was going to get it again? He apologized to me and told him that he had me so hurt and upset that I almost came down after taking my son to school and punched him and threw the ring I am wearing on my finger at him and told him "good-bye" forever. I think, you guys, that he actually started to cry!! He didn't realized that he'd hurt me so bad and promised that it would never happen again.
I also agree with what bookgirl did, because I did it as well. I don't want to be lied to and things that's told to me by him, I do check out I don't want him to think:"I can lie and get away with anything with her and she believes me!" He's been truthful, honest, loving and kind to me ever since we've been together for which it's as of today: 9 months and 8 days an counting. I think it's the best thing that his buddy Keith could've done was introduce me and him. Of course there will be times where I'd like to throttle him, but of course he probably has his days where he'd like to do the same to me. I can be a pain and I'll admit it, but we love each other and that's all that counts. :D:cuffs::D

Now that PTO has that situation under control ~smile~

Let's see what we can do about this "PAIN IN THE ASS" you two seem to cherish so much.

NAH, the closer you two get, that will take care of it's self. When two react as a couple, instead as a single person living together, things start to move as a unit where one reconizes what bothers the other or can handle a reminder without blowing up.

There's a whole lot of truth in "United we stand, Divided we fall" in relationship's too!

I guess I'm on a philosophy kick this morning LOL I'm outta here, gotta clean that DANG kitchen :-(

I know I'm a bit late on this one ... :D

My fiancé is on DR in Illinois for the killing of 5 family members (parents and siblings). What he has done is not of importance to me when it comes to the question if I do love him or not. We do hope that he'll get a second chance for his life one day and though it's more likely that he won't be ever released again we do think very often about how it would be if that day ever comes. We talked a lot about his ability to kill someone so close to him and both of us do think that he will never do it again. But still .. Of course we both have doubts if he would be able to get his agressions and actions under control once released. How would he act in the outside world? He is on the row for more than 17 years now - would he be able to deal with the pressure and stress of every day life? What about if people are not willing to give him a second chance when it comes to job and friends for example? Would he be able to deal with that kind of frustration without getting back to drugs and "wrong friends"? He told me that he's afraid of all those millions of noises and people, the changes in the world since he has been imprisoned and so on. Both of us do think that he would be in strong need of psychological help but still there will never be a warranty that he won't do it again. Like I said, I don't take all these self questioning too serious today, but I'm sure they will get more importance if a possible release comes "in sight"...

Brena

brena: i totally understand where you are coming from. my biggest fear for my boyfriend (who will get out, thank god), is that he will not be able to resist the old friends, the partying, the fast money, etc. that put him where he is in the first place. my hope is that, as he continues to age, mature, and contemplate in prison, that life will continue to seem less attractive to him...it's tough.

aprilcat, what you said about old friends and old routines sounds sad but realistic ... Hey, I think I'm in a much better position since there are NO old friends left after all those years, lucky me :D Just kidding though - I'm trying to take it all with a kind of "black humour" ;)

Wish you both good luck and all the best!
Brena

BRENA

IT IS VERY REALISTIC AND YOU ARE PROBABLY IN A BETTER SITUATION THAN MOST COMMING HOME....


GOOD LUCK AND GOD BLESS YOU..

DONNA

Thank you, budwoman :)

Guess this is one good example for the saying "every single thing has a good and a bad side" :)

Greetz,
Brena

This is such a great question, especaially for the women. My husband is serving life for murder that he committed as a teenager while doing drugs. He is coming up for parole, after 20 years, in a few months. I have thought about this question myself. But I also must say that in all honesty, I believe given the right set of circumstances and provocation we all have the capacity to take someones life. I know in my heart, that I would not willingly hurt someone. However, if protecting my children, I might not make the same choices. It is human nature. Unfortunately, self preservation and the things that move us to do the unthinkable, are all relative .As for my trust in him, it is unwavering

i admit I have some doubts some time.Mines has not actually murderd any one but he has one assessory to murder and 2 attempts to murder.But It scares me some time to know that the man of my likfe coul actually attempt any thing like taht on any one.. Its sad but I still love him..