View Full Version : Bush Supporters: Are there any?

11-18-2003, 09:12 PM
I'm not posting this to spark a debate, but I've been wondering if there are any Bush Supporters here? I know I'm guilty of bashing the man myself, but I really would like to know if there are people who do support him and why?

I'm not here to question anyone's reasons, but I would just like to see why some people support his agenda.

Thanks for all responses, feel free to post if you don't support him and why! I know this can be a touchy subject, but I'm interested in hearing different viewpoints.

Thanks Everyone!

Much Love,
Mrs. Joe

11-18-2003, 09:15 PM
All I can say is imagine what the country would be like if Al Gore won the election...


11-18-2003, 11:35 PM
i vote for whoever my mom tells me to vote for. i dont keep up on politics and all that stuff ;)

Phil in Paris
11-18-2003, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by lovinbilly4ever
i vote for whoever my mom tells me to vote for. i dont keep up on politics and all that stuff ;)

Maybe you should reconsider your position. Many people around the world live in countries where they can't vote or even express an opinion. You and I are lucky to live in countries where the citizens can voice and debate their thoughts and ideas. Everyday people are killed because they say what they think.

To answer Mrs Joe question, I don't support Mr Bush.


11-19-2003, 12:08 AM
Well my concept isn't recieved by a lot of folks. I believe we are on a time table and whomever is in power is there to speed things up or slow things down.

The way Bush got in power leads me to think it was by design and beyound my logic and had nothing to do with our politics.

11-19-2003, 12:18 AM
well, basically. i am not too smart on politics. i dont understand it...i dont get has been explained to me every which way..but the one thing i do that...since the 2nd bush has been in power..i think it was not necessary for us to go to war...(too many of our guys have died)...and the economy...gawd..its crappy.

dont we vote again one of these days?? i am a republican...dont know who is in the there anyone better then bush..(im assuming bush will run again)....?

just hope that the whole FLORIDA ordeal does not happen again...that was just very VERY sad. :hmm:

11-19-2003, 12:25 AM
I'm with Michael Moore. Dude, where's my country?

11-19-2003, 12:27 AM
Well here goes, I am a republican! Pro - LIFE all the way!

11-19-2003, 06:06 AM
Can't say as I think too much of Mr. Bush, "The Texecutioner."
My opinion on his "treatment" of prisoners. He is America's biggest serial killer... 155 homicides. Executing the innocent, the mentally disabled, battered women, juveniles, and violating international law by denying foreign citizens the right to contact their government before they're sentenced to death.

11-19-2003, 07:27 AM
I have to admit I appose a lot of the policies he stands for and I read a book on him, his brother and his family etc and as far as I am aware itís a factual book and not just the authors opinion and unfortunately it certainly didnít favour Mr Bush at all.

Most governments seem to be fairly corrupt, but on a positive note these people run huge countries its not just about putting a few policies into place its trying to sort out billions of problems.

I would have to say if I was American and allowed a say I probably wouldnít favour him but I donít have much knowledge on the other contenders that ran at the time.

11-19-2003, 08:27 AM
I'm NOT for Bush AT ALL! And if his brother Jeb wasn't Governor of Florida, he wouldn't have been elected. I think he'll get elected again, thanks to his family's influence being able to "help" (ahem!) him along.

11-19-2003, 08:43 AM
I do not support him but I also think if this next election is a REAL ELECTION Bush will not win but if it is all show & tell he will be here another 4 years and if that happens at least he wont be able to run again! Wait then we have another brother huh? Dang well I think this was a good topic!

11-19-2003, 09:20 AM
I support our president.....I'd hate to THINK where we would be if Gore had won.....I'm with B-Ray...I think Bush winning was by design, not by default. I think, with the Clinton mess he's been left with, he's done the best job possible, all things considered......

my 38 cents,

11-19-2003, 09:31 AM
I support and voted for Bush. When I choose a candidate to support, I don't believe there is a "better person" to vote for. I look for the "lesser of two evils." My beliefs on issues lean toward the Republican side, although I have been known to vote for Democrats.

11-19-2003, 10:33 AM
I voted for and support Bush as well. I think people tend to forget the mess that had been created when Bush came into office. I truly believe his hands were tied as far as the war issue. Go to war-people die.....Don't go to war-"we just let them bombus, kill innocent people, and we didn't do anything to retaliate"

All I can say is I am glad I am not in his shoes!!!!

11-19-2003, 11:42 AM
I am definately a democrat. I have to add a little something here too. hslittle you say you support him and are totally pro-life. Jeb and w both are TOTALLY against abortion however both have signed more death warrants than anyother govenors. To me that is far from pro life. And by the way I am NOT against the death penalty.
just my 2 cents.

11-19-2003, 11:52 AM
I surly am not a bush fan either

11-19-2003, 11:53 AM
I see that a few of you speak of the "mess" when Bush came into office. I was wondering what you were referencing????
I am a Floridian and with Bush as Governer and Bush as president our state is a BIG MESS!!!!!
Just wonderin?????

11-19-2003, 11:53 AM
And by the way I am NOT against the death penalty

I did not know that bella. I thought you were against it

11-19-2003, 12:46 PM
oh well here goes...i am not politically inclined...i listen to my girlfriend talk instead of the news..she is a veryyyy conservative republican...i can swing more ways than two...i voted for bush like jessup...he was the lesser of 2 evils...but he is an idiot...i would love to know who "he" listens to ...and jeb also..but i think jeb is smarter....only he has his own all political figures do....i do support the president of the united states though...i just don't agree with everything he is doing....i support our troops but i don't want them there..but then the conservative g/f says well if we weren't there what if "they" were here..and i have to back track just alittle...but still ..all the death...IT IS NOT like vietnam though...we had to do something i is the way he puts it though...mass weapons of destruction????why not...just plain ol terrorism..but then i am told sadam wasn't maybe behind the terrorist..and bush had another agenda..soooo...i hate politics and trying to figure out this stuff....i just try to make an informed decision...

11-19-2003, 01:11 PM
well for one, bush goes and bombs a country, ok, it needed to be done, so he did what he had to do, ( how ever, i believe that it was none sense, but what do i know) then once he does that, he seems to think we can re bulid it. oh yeah, he is the president, he CAN, and in the meantime he cuts back on us, medicade, children that are on disabilites. Now that makes me mad. Take care of US first,

11-19-2003, 01:13 PM
i vote for whoever my mom tells me to vote for. i dont keep up on politics and all that stuff

LOl girl, I do the same thing, most times anyway.

11-19-2003, 01:17 PM
Well, for what it's worth and as an outsider, I am not a fan of the 'Texecutioner' and those of you who read the Europe section will know I'll be on the streets of London tomorrow with a sign that says just that 'TEXECUTIONER'. By the way, the Mayor of London is hosting a function at the moment where EVERYONE present is against the Bush visit here. The Mayor, Ken Livingstone, says Bush is the greatest threat the world has ever faced!!!!

haswtch, I've read 'DUDE Where's My Country' and what an eye opener that was. I left it at the gatehouse for Tony when I was visiting him recently in Menard and some low life has stolen it because, 3 weeks later he still hasn't received it. I say stolen it, but I suppose they could have thought it subversive and not allowed him to have it. I've sent an email to Michael Moore telling him IDOC are refusing to pass on his book. Wonder what he'll make of that!!!!!!!


11-19-2003, 05:04 PM
Well lets hope wherever that copy ended up,somebody's reading it!

11-19-2003, 08:53 PM
I am TOTALLY against our current president. He is very arrogant. And yes Clinton did make a "mess" at the White House in a sense but he did take care of his POLITICAL business. He could only deal with what he was given. So the part about him (Bush) having to take over the "mess" is actually irrelevant because he knew what he was getting into before he decided to run for President. He could have easily said NO!!! Since our country is in such bad shape (economically) why doesn't he take a pay cut and put that money into the pot?
*But this is just MY opinion!*

11-19-2003, 09:44 PM
Against Bush 100%. Pro choice. Anti-death penalty. Liberal and independant.


11-19-2003, 10:12 PM
All of Texecutioner talk is bullshit. Most of the people that were executed under his watch were already on death row when he became Govenor. Also, his powers as govenor are limited to granting a one time 90 day stay (which he did on every single case) or a complete pardon. Believe me, people.
99% of these people were not in any way deserving of a pardon. So get your facts straight.

His arrogance is not conciet, it is conviction. He does what he believes in his heart is right and even if it is unpopular he will stick to it. All it would take "Three Dollar" Bill Clinton to change his stance was a dip in te polls.

All you Bush Bashers get ready, Dean, Kerry, Clark, Sharpton (Ha!), Gepheart, any or all of them are going to get trampled
come next November. I really wish Hillary would run. Her landslide defeat would be just devestating to the Dems since all of their hopes and dreams are tied up in her. Kinda sad how a big democratic affair last week that was supposed to spotlight the candidates was upstaged by the appearance of a woman who is not even running. Kinda confirms that things are not looking good in the Democratic camp.

11-19-2003, 10:34 PM
My opinion? I wish Clinton could have stayed another term. I wish Paul Wellstone hadn't died and would have run for president.
I'm an unashamed cross-party voter, but in the next election I can guarantee Bush won't get my vote.

11-19-2003, 10:39 PM
I voted for Bush and I'm proud to say so ... no one is perfect but I feel he is doing as good a job as is possible at this time, hopefully if he is elected again I think then he will have had the time to make a difference ... only time will tell.
I might add as well, that although I am against the DP, I could never vote for someone who would murder an unborn child no matter what else he or she stood for.

11-20-2003, 12:48 AM
I voted for President Bush would do it again. I have had the honor to meet him a few times. Yes, to me it was an Honor and always will be.

Republican 110%
the 10% is for all the Texas....*cough* BS :)

Texan till I die and proud of it!

11-20-2003, 02:36 AM
I do not support Bush what-so-ever!

Here are (SOME) of my reasons. (Acrobat Reader Required)

11-20-2003, 05:25 AM



11-20-2003, 05:01 PM
Jeez, You ALL are doing a great job with what could be a very heated topic!

It's nice to see so many Republicans here. LOL, when I joined PTO I think I was 1 of (3) who openly declared they were Republican!:D

I think President Bush has an incredibly hard job and the decisions he makes, I would never want to be in his shoes. BUT he has my full support and I truly think that he will always protect our interests, our freedoms and our LIVES to the best of his ability!

Here's looking at 4 more years!!!:)

11-20-2003, 06:01 PM
that is cause we dont want to get into trouble with the big man :)

11-20-2003, 08:45 PM
"All of Texecutioner talk is bullshit."

Respectfully, IMO its not. I have been a prisoner rights activist for 16 years and I believe that I'm pretty up to date on what I believe to be the facts. I agree that most of these people were already on death row but I disagree with some of your other statements.

"Also, his powers as govenor are limited to granting a one time 90 day stay (which he did on every single case) or a complete pardon."

"The governor can only grant clemency upon a favorable recommendation from the Board of Pardons and Paroles. Without such a recommendation, the governor cannot do anything except grant a one-time, 30-day stay of execution."

Until the stay of execution for Ricky McGinn:

"Bush has never before granted a 30-day stay of execution Since Bush has been governor, 131 people have been executed - - 129 men and two women. Bush has been questioned repeatedly on the campaign trail about the Texas execution record and has responded that he believes no innocent person has been put to death."

Source: Jun 2, 2000


11-20-2003, 08:49 PM
It is to bad that he wont give more DNA for those that have it.

11-20-2003, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by beans_mom
"All of Texecutioner talk is bullshit."

Respectfully, IMO its not. I have been a prisoner rights activist for 16 years

I have been both an inmate and a victim, so my insights are based more on personal experience and principle. I was force to dig my own grave at gun point, felt the cold ring of a pistol barrel pressed against the back of my head. Clemency was not an option for me, neither was any sympathy or pity in the heart of the man who had his finger on the trigger. I view capital punishment from a victim's point of view. A view most "advocates" give little thought to.

11-20-2003, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by lulu
well for one, bush goes and bombs a country, ok, it needed to be done, so he did what he had to do, ( how ever, i believe that it was none sense, but what do i know) then once he does that, he seems to think we can re bulid it. oh yeah, he is the president, he CAN, and in the meantime he cuts back on us, medicade, children that are on disabilites. Now that makes me mad. Take care of US first,

Well, he's no different than any other president with respect to rebuilding countries we have devastated. Yes, I do agree that we need to pay more attention Americans first; however, we need to rebuild these other countries... it helps the economy, ours and worldwide, if we do. If we had not helped rebuild Germany after WWII, I honestly don't believe America would have had such prosperous years afterwards, and Germany would have taken a lot longer to recover... of course, it took a very long time for them to recover as it was.

11-21-2003, 01:42 AM
Originally posted by speed_addiction
A view most "advocates" give little thought to.

I have to respectfully disagree here. It is not that prisoner advocates do not see the victims side, it is just that they realize that two evils do not make the first evil any less.

I really do not like any of the Bushes. I know what my industry was like prior to Bush, I also know how the decisions he has made since he came into office have personally effected my life. I do not like it. I am looking to vote him out. Anyone short of Satan who runs opposed to him will get my vote.

I was at one time a Republican. One of the things that has tipped me full yellow dog Democrate has been what has happened since 9-11. These sweeping decreases to our civil liberties are scarry as hell to me. We all look the other way and say, well, I am not a terrorist, so it does not effect me. Bush at one time called union workers national security threats, that is a whoooole lotta working class citizens who would now be effected by patriot act.

One of my most favorite Bushisms.....

"I think it's fine, as long as it's Christian prayers. Anything else is un-American." [his thoughts on praying at school football games]

11-21-2003, 02:36 AM
fly... don't even get me started on Dubya speak.. LoL... Here are some of his finer moments...


10. At this Thursday, ticket counters and airplanes will fly outta Ronald Reagan Airport.
9. Laura and I will thank them from the bottom of my heart.
8. When you have your own money, it means you've got more money to spend.
7. The benefits of helping somebody is beneficial.
6. We're in for a long struggle, and I think Texans understand that. And so do Americans.
5. Sometimes when I sleep at night I think of "Hop on Pop".
4. I promise you I will listen to what has been said here, even though I wasn't here.
3. And one of the things we've got to make sure that we do is anything.
2. We're making the right decisions to bring the solution to an end.
1. Border relations between Canada and Mexico have never been better.

TOP 10 AS SELECTED BY THE EDITOR (from the remainder of the collection)

10. I've been to war. I've raised twins. If I had a choice, I'd rather go to war.
9. I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself, but for predecessors as well.
8. You teach a child to read and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test.
7. No, I know all the war rhetoric, but it's all aimed at achieving peace.
6. My mom often used to say, "The trouble with W" -- although she didn't put that to words.
5. In 1994, there were 67 schools in Texas that were rated "exemplorary" according to our own tests.
4. I know what I believe. I will continue to articulate what I believe and what I believe -- I believe what I believe is right.
3. Africa is a nation that suffers from incredible disease.
2. I understand small business growth. I was one.
1. Families is where our nation finds hope, where wings take dream.

11-21-2003, 03:06 AM
My opinion may not be the most popular, and I answered this before I read the responses.

I support President Bush. to expand on this, I vote who I believe should be voted for, BUT I support whoever is elected.

11-21-2003, 03:21 AM
oh I forgot to mention I am 100% Republican if you didn't already know:D

11-21-2003, 05:46 AM
view capital punishment from a victim's point of view. A view most "advocates" give little

I disagree. I am as well an advocate, and I surly care for ALL people,
wether they are a victim, or an inmate.

11-21-2003, 07:00 AM

You go girl, I am there with you in spirit.

Though I am pro-choice, but prefer adoption to abortion, anti-death penalty, (I regard any nation or government that uses the death penalty for any reason as no better than Germany under Hitler) anti-extreme right wing, my main concern has been the war.

Yes, the United States was attacked on 9/11, by Al Quida (sp), I have seen absolutely no evidence linking Saddam's Government to those attacks. In reality, every arguement that Bush used to justify this war has proven a lie, in my eyes.

If I could still vote, I would not vote for him, but, I can and do speak out against Bush and his warmongering regime.

If the US was not so powerful and dangerous to world peace, Mr. Bush would be laughable on the same level as some pompous, egotistical, third world leader.

In fact, I'm surprised he has not taken up wearing a military uniform, what a disgrace to our brave men and women in uniform that would be.

Please, understand that even though I have strong feelings concerning Bush, as retired military, I support our military 100%. It was not the military that started this war, I support them not Bush.

This also, leaves me in a quandry, if I was still active duty, would I refuse orders to Iraq, and risk Courts-Martial, I'm not sure, I am totally torn on that and very Thankful that God has not put me in that situation.

But, if more military officers and men in the German Armed Forces had opposed Hitler in the 1930s and 40s would we have had the Third Reich?


11-21-2003, 08:27 AM
Originally posted by FriscoLady

Yes, the United States was attacked on 9/11, by Al Quida (sp), I have seen absolutely no evidence linking Saddam's Government to those attacks.

Perhaps Saddam had no direct involvement in the attacks, but I think this articles makes some good points regarding the relationship between Iraq and Al Quaeda. By supporting Al Qaeda, I believe Iraq should be held responsible for the acts of terrorism. Just my opinion...

The Iraq -- Al Qaeda Connections
By Richard Miniter

Every day it seems another American soldier is killed in Iraq. These grim statistics have become a favorite of network news anchors and political chat show hosts. Nevermind that they mix deaths from accidents with actual battlefield casualties; or that the average is actually closer to one American death for every two days; or that enemy deaths far outnumber ours. What matters is the overall impression of mounting, pointless deaths.

That is why is important to remember why we fight in Iraq -- and who we fight. Indeed, many of those sniping at U.S. troops are al Qaeda terrorists operating inside Iraq. And many of bin Laden's men were in Iraq prior to the liberation. A wealth of evidence on the public record -- from government reports and congressional testimony to news accounts from major newspapers -- attests to longstanding ties between bin Laden and Saddam going back to 1994.

Those who try to whitewash Saddam's record don't dispute this evidence; they just ignore it. So let's review the evidence, all of it on the public record for months or years:

* Abdul Rahman Yasin was the only member of the al Qaeda cell that detonated the 1993 World Trade Center bomb to remain at large in the Clinton years. He fled to Iraq. U.S. forces recently discovered a cache of documents in Tikrit, Saddam's hometown, that show that Iraq gave Mr. Yasin both a house and monthly salary.

* Bin Laden met at least eight times with officers of Iraq's Special Security Organization, a secret police agency run by Saddam's son Qusay, and met with officials from Saddam's mukhabarat, its external intelligence service, according to intelligence made public by Secretary of State Colin Powell, who was speaking before the United Nations Security Council on February 6, 2003.

* Sudanese intelligence officials told me that their agents had observed meetings between Iraqi intelligence agents and bin Laden starting in 1994, when bin Laden lived in Khartoum.

* Bin Laden met the director of the Iraqi mukhabarat in 1996 in Khartoum, according to Mr. Powell.

* An al Qaeda operative now held by the U.S. confessed that in the mid-1990s, bin Laden had forged an agreement with Saddam's men to cease all terrorist activities against the Iraqi dictator, Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

* In 1999 the Guardian, a British newspaper, reported that Farouk Hijazi, a senior officer in Iraq's mukhabarat, had journeyed deep into the icy mountains near Kandahar, Afghanistan, in December 1998 to meet with al Qaeda men. Mr. Hijazi is "thought to have offered bin Laden asylum in Iraq," the Guardian reported.

* In October 2000, another Iraqi intelligence operative, Salah Suleiman, was arrested near the Afghan border by Pakistani authorities, according to Jane's Foreign Report, a respected international newsletter. Jane's reported that Suleiman was shuttling between Iraqi intelligence and Ayman al Zawahiri, now al Qaeda's No. 2 man.

(Why are all of those meetings significant? The London Observer reports that FBI investigators cite a captured al Qaeda field manual in Afghanistan, which "emphasizes the value of conducting discussions about pending terrorist attacks face to face, rather than by electronic means.")

* As recently as 2001, Iraq's embassy in Pakistan was used as a "liaison" between the Iraqi dictator and al Qaeda, Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

* Spanish investigators have uncovered documents seized from Yusuf Galan -- who is charged by a Spanish court with being "directly involved with the preparation and planning" of the Sept. 11 attacks -- that show the terrorist was invited to a party at the Iraqi embassy in Madrid. The invitation used his "al Qaeda nom de guerre," London's Independent reports.

* An Iraqi defector to Turkey, known by his cover name as "Abu Mohammed," told Gwynne Roberts of the Sunday Times of London that he saw bin Laden's fighters in camps in Iraq in 1997. At the time, Mohammed was a colonel in Saddam's Fedayeen. He described an encounter at Salman Pak, the training facility southeast of Baghdad. At that vast compound run by Iraqi intelligence, Muslim militants trained to hijack planes with knives -- on a full-size Boeing 707. Col. Mohammed recalls his first visit to Salman Pak this way: "We were met by Colonel Jamil Kamil, the camp manager, and Major Ali Hawas. I noticed that a lot of people were queuing for food. (The major) said to me: 'You'll have nothing to do with these people. They are Osama bin Laden's group and the PKK and Mojahedin-e Khalq.'"

* In 1998, Abbas al-Janabi, a longtime aide to Saddam's son Uday, defected to the West. At the time, he repeatedly told reporters that there was a direct connection between Iraq and al Qaeda.

*The Sunday Times found a Saddam loyalist in a Kurdish prison who claims to have been Dr. Zawahiri's bodyguard during his 1992 visit with Saddam in Baghdad. Dr. Zawahiri was a close associate of bin Laden at the time and was present at the founding of al Qaeda in 1989.

* Following the defeat of the Taliban, almost two dozen bin Laden associates "converged on Baghdad and established a base of operations there," Mr. Powell told the United Nations in February 2003. From their Baghdad base, the secretary said, they supervised the movement of men, materiel and money for al Qaeda's global network.

* In 2001, an al Qaeda member "bragged that the situation in Iraq was 'good,'" according to intelligence made public by Mr. Powell.

* That same year, Saudi Arabian border guards arrested two al Qaeda members entering the kingdom from Iraq.

* Abu Musaab al-Zarqawi oversaw an al Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan, Mr. Powell told the United Nations. His specialty was poisons. Wounded in fighting with U.S. forces, he sought medical treatment in Baghdad in May 2002. When Zarqawi recovered, he restarted a training camp in northern Iraq. Zarqawi's Iraq cell was later tied to the October 2002 murder of Lawrence Foley, an official of the U.S. Agency for International Development, in Amman, Jordan. The captured assassin confessed that he received orders and funds from Zarqawi's cell in Iraq, Mr. Powell said. His accomplice escaped to Iraq.

*Zarqawi met with military chief of al Qaeda, Mohammed Ibrahim Makwai (aka Saif al-Adel) in Iran in February 2003, according to intelligence sources cited by the Washington Post.

* Mohammad Atef, the head of al Qaeda's military wing until the U.S. killed him in Afghanistan in November 2001, told a senior al Qaeda member now in U.S. custody that the terror network needed labs outside of Afghanistan to manufacture chemical weapons, Mr. Powell said. "Where did they go, where did they look?" said the secretary. "They went to Iraq."

* Abu Abdullah al-Iraqi was sent to Iraq by bin Laden to purchase poison gases several times between 1997 and 2000. He called his relationship with Saddam's regime "successful," Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

* Mohamed Mansour Shahab, a smuggler hired by Iraq to transport weapons to bin Laden in Afghanistan, was arrested by anti-Hussein Kurdish forces in May, 2000. He later told his story to American intelligence and a reporter for the New Yorker magazine.

* Documents found among the debris of the Iraqi Intelligence Center show that Baghdad funded the Allied Democratic Forces, a Ugandan terror group led by an Islamist cleric linked to bin Laden. According to a London's Daily Telegraph, the organization offered to recruit "youth to train for the jihad" at a "headquarters for international holy warrior network" to be established in Baghdad.

* Mullah Melan Krekar, ran a terror group (the Ansar al-Islam) linked to both bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. Mr. Krekar admitted to a Kurdish newspaper that he met bin Laden in Afghanistan and other senior al Qaeda officials. His acknowledged meetings with bin Laden go back to 1988. When he organized Ansar al Islam in 2001 to conduct suicide attacks on Americans, "three bin Laden operatives showed up with a gift of $300,000 'to undertake jihad,'" Newsday reported. Mr. Krekar is now in custody in the Netherlands. His group operated in portion of northern Iraq loyal to Saddam Hussein -- and attacked independent Kurdish groups hostile to Saddam. A spokesman for the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan told a United Press International correspondent that Mr. Krekar's group was funded by "Saddam Hussein's regime in Baghdad."

* After October 2001, hundreds of al Qaeda fighters are believed to have holed up in the Ansar al-Islam's strongholds inside northern Iraq.

Some skeptics dismiss the emerging evidence of a longstanding link between Iraq and al Qaeda by contending that Saddam ran a secular dictatorship hated by Islamists like bin Laden.
In fact, there are plenty of "Stalin-Roosevelt" partnerships between international terrorists and Muslim dictators. Saddam and bin Laden had common enemies, common purposes and interlocking needs. They shared a powerful hate for America and the Saudi royal family. They both saw the Gulf War as a turning point. Saddam suffered a crushing defeat which he had repeatedly vowed to avenge. Bin Laden regards the U.S. as guilty of war crimes against Iraqis and believes that non-Muslims shouldn't have military bases on the holy sands of Arabia. Al Qaeda's avowed goal for the past ten years has been the removal of American forces from Saudi Arabia, where they stood in harm's way solely to contain Saddam.

The most compelling reason for bin Laden to work with Saddam is money. Al Qaeda operatives have testified in federal courts that the terror network was always desperate for cash. Senior employees fought bitterly about the $100 difference in pay between Egyptian and Saudis (the Egyptians made more). One al Qaeda member, who was connected to the 1998 embassy bombings, told a U.S. federal court how bitter he was that bin Laden could not pay for his pregnant wife to see a doctor.

Bin Laden's personal wealth alone simply is not enough to support a profligate global organization. Besides, bin Laden's fortune is probably not as large as some imagine. Informed estimates put bin Laden's pre-Sept. 11, 2001 wealth at perhaps $30 million. $30 million is the budget of a small school district, not a global terror conglomerate. Meanwhile, Forbes estimated Saddam's personal fortune at $2 billion.

So a common enemy, a shared goal and powerful need for cash seem to have forged an alliance between Saddam and bin Laden. CIA Director George Tenet recently told the Senate Intelligence Committee: "Iraq has in the past provided training in document forgery and bomb making to al Qaeda. It also provided training in poisons and gasses to two al Qaeda associates; one of these [al Qaeda] associates characterized the relationship as successful. Mr. Chairman, this information is based on a solid foundation of intelligence. It comes to us from credible and reliable sources. Much of it is corroborated by multiple sources."

The Iraqis, who had the Third World's largest poison-gas operations prior to the Gulf War I, have perfected the technique of making hydrogen-cyanide gas, which the Nazis called Zyklon-B. In the hands of al Qaeda, this would be a fearsome weapon in an enclosed space -- like a suburban mall or subway station.

Mr. Miniter is a senior fellow at the Center for the New Europe and author of "Losing bin Laden: How Bill Clinton's Failures Unleashed Global Terror" (Regnery) which is now on the New York Times' bestseller list

11-21-2003, 10:13 AM

I'm sure all your facts and figures are right but let me just say we, the United Kingdom, didn't attack the U.S.A. when, for nearly 40 years we suffered bomb attacks and shootings and the whole gamut of terrorism from the IRA. Nearly every bomb and bullet was paid for with American money!!


11-21-2003, 10:25 AM
Rose -

Really?! I was not aware of that... thanks for telling me... I guess ALL countries are guilty of supporting terrorism in one fashion or another. It's too bad we can't live in a more peaceful world...


11-21-2003, 01:00 PM
i do not support bush at all but that is my opinion. I did not vote for him.

11-21-2003, 01:48 PM
I just vote for whoever Michael Moore tells me to.


11-21-2003, 09:05 PM
The thought of 4 more years with Bush is too much for this voter. Yes, I agree he did what he had to do in the beginning with 9/11 but since I'm not so sure. Seems to me as though so much is going into it that NOT ENOUGH is being done that affects all of us. 1. health care ( now that's a crisis in my opinion) 2. education, there's so much we AREN"T giving our kids, the leaders of tomorrow, 3. housing, that's AFFORDABLE 4 the judical system, it really needs an overhaul. How much longer can we AFFORD to keep doing what we are doing? I could go on but won't. BUT my MOST important reason for not voting for him again is it scares the heck out of me to think of him appointing any more Supreme Court justices. These appointments will not only affect me, my children, future grandkids but generations to come. This really scares me. As he's shown how he thinks and leans, it's scary to me. I don't believe I have to give up ANY rights in order for the government to do their JOB properly!!!!!! WAY TOO MANY have DIED giving us those RIGHTS to give them up!! Enough said, I'll now leave my soapbox! No offense to anyone, just my 2 cents.

11-21-2003, 09:08 PM
PS. thanks too all who have given me the right to speak my mind, I'll ALWAYS be grateful and will fight to keep those rights.

11-21-2003, 10:29 PM
I am definately a Bush supporter. I haven't seen a single democratic candidate that doesn't scare me far more than Bush. I do not agree with everything he does, but then again, I am not privy to the information that he has available to him when making his decisions.

I expect he will be in office for another term, and I will breathe a sigh of relief. I have a son that just joined the military, so I have given this alot of thought.

11-21-2003, 11:28 PM
Bush Supporters: Can you tell me how you separate the judicial policies (eg. mandatory minimums, no parole etc). that Bush and Ashcroft support, from the negative effect it has on your loved one? Do you feel that these policies do not matter one way or another when it comes to your incarcerated loved one?

I'm just not able to see how one can support an administration that has this lock and throw away the key mentality when it comes to the prison system and inmates. Granted, he did not create the entire situation as it stands now, but he's perpetuating it in a negative direction.

11-22-2003, 05:04 AM
Or how about him mocking that lady who was executed, forgot her name. He openly mocked her in public, pleading for her life, prior to her death! And that is how a "christian" acts???

11-22-2003, 07:23 AM
are you seroius fly?

11-22-2003, 12:04 PM
I'll support the efforts to remove him from office...but I don't guess that was the intent of the original question ;)

Part of the problem is that it isn't always the idiot at the top, but everyone that rides into office on their coat tails.

The real concern I have from the last election is the damage done to a potentially viable third-party system. usually we see a decent third-party/independent candidates take votes away from both major parties, but after what we saw in the last election, how many informed voters really want to take a chance on their vote being one of a few thousand that could swing the election the wrong way? And yes, I have worked on campaigns with third-party candidates in the past, but not in several years- I got involved in the John Anderson campaign back when Ronnie Ray-gun was running for office...(I also did a precinct analysis in a North Houston precinct nearly 20 years ago that concluded Mickey Mouse could run as a Republican and win with at least 52% of the vote- the prof who later got elected in another precinct agreed with my conclusions despite his Democratic affilliations).

The party in charge has a lot of sway over court appointments, and some of those judges are appointed for life. That is another reason why the lesser positions on a ballot need and deserve close attention...we need good judges...not some idiot who happened to belong to the winning party at the right time. 'course judges being elected based on their party is stupid to begin with, but that is another soapbox.

I have always been an enigma when it comes to questions about political beliefs because I actually look at issues. The key for everyone is to get informed and vote the person, not the party!

11-22-2003, 06:47 PM
I do not have a child in prison but I do have one flying helicopters serving our country. I smiled at the post that apologized to any of us who are 'rich or fortunate'. I am not rich but I am fortunate that I am American. Also my loved one who is incarcerated is exactly where he should be. The Bush administration makes not one bit of difference. I certainly do not agree with everything President Bush says or does. But I feel like he has access to more information than the rest of us when he makes decisions that may not be politically popular. I trust him more than
our former proven liar president. Also I do not care how rich your family is you cannot graduate from Yale as he did and be dumb as some like to say he is.
I think it is great that no one has gotten rude on this thread. Politics usually bring out the ugly in people! And those of you who listen to what your mama says to vote...I wish I could get my kids to do that! LOL..One of mine is so liberally open minded I tell him his brains have fallen out!
And to be perfectly honest it hurt my feelings terribly to see the English and French displaying such hard feelings toward America. My daddy helped liberate France from the Germans at great personal sacrifice. And the English were delighted to see Americans when their own freedom was at stake. Perhaps if steps had been taken to end the Nazi's reign earlier, 6 million Jewish souls could have been saved. Perhaps this is the goal of what our troops are doing now. It is easy to listen to the masses and form a popular opinion. If you read and find out more about history you may find yourself being able to form and hold on to your own opinions even when they are not popular. I respect any one who remains true to their beliefs and does not change with witchever way the wind blows to be more likable. President Bush falls into this category.
Blessings on your sweet hearts....

11-22-2003, 07:28 PM
excellent post Angelmuffin-
I may not agree with everything that President Bush does, but I do not feel as some do that he is an idiot who doesn't have a clue. That thinking in itself is idiotic.
I can disagree with him as much as I want, however, until I receive all the information that HE and his administration receive, I think that I will step back and let him do his job.
I support Bush, and I will continue to support Bush. War is horrible, but it is a fact of life.

11-23-2003, 04:13 AM
Angelmuffin, you brought up another good point. How exactly is it that a C average student gets into Yale? He got into Yale only BECAUSE his family is very, very rich and politically influential. Then, he turns around and fights college afirmative action. His administrations policy is no preferential treament on college admissions. Well, none for minoritys. I guess that does not include preferential treatment for rich white men. ;)

11-23-2003, 04:15 AM
Yes Lulu. I wish I was lying about it. He openly mocked Carla Faye Tucker for begging for her life right before her execution. I guess I do not share his sense of "humor" or his particular brand of "christianity".

11-23-2003, 06:34 AM
I have to agree with flygirl, I actually saw the newsfootage of Bush mocking Carla over here. It was very well publicized in this death penalty free country.


11-23-2003, 06:43 AM
Fly, hunny...Beverely Lowery is an author in Texas who was a close friend of Carla Fay's and has written extensively about her siuation. You can go to her website and discuss with her what you've heard about Carla Faye being mocked by the President. She usually has facts that can be backed up. I know she is not a fan of the President and if she knew of this allegation she would be all over it.

And as far as the Yale situation...of course rich people have an easier time of it than the rest of us. That said, I am so focused on the President's decisions concerning the safety of my loved one and all the troops that at this point I do not care if he went to Water Buffalo Junior College...just please pray for him to make wise choices.

I understand how it feels to be so sickened by a President that it is hard to see any redeaming feature whatsoever....believe me, President Clinton could have saved a house full of burning puppies carried out by nuns and I would have not been impressed, LOL!

The elections are coming up next year, 2004...get out and vote everyone!

11-23-2003, 07:15 AM
You can also go to the Canadian Coalition Against the Death Penalty site. There is info there.

11-23-2003, 07:36 AM
Yeah, the Austin Statesman reporter who saw it and reported it was fired.

11-23-2003, 05:50 PM
I wonder if the man who sold George Bush his cocaine when he was using, did any time in prison? Or why is it that his niece gets so many "Get out of Jail free" cards?

11-24-2003, 02:58 AM
I agree with the get out of jail free cards. I have no respect for his brother either, he can sign a death warrent, but he can pay his daugther to stay out of jail, thats not really fair to all the families that loved ones are doing time in prison in FL, especially for drug related crimes, or the whole of the US for that matter, it just doesnt make sense to me.

11-25-2003, 04:53 PM
Somebne on this post alluded to Mr. Bush's "influence" as if it is a terrible thing. I submit: where would we be if he had no influence? Women, especially, may compare going out with a man who can snap his fingers and waiters hop, and going out with a man who can't get a paid parking attendant to park his car. You may recall Jimmy Carter -- folksy, honest as the day is long, hard-working and bragged that he had no Washington connections and owed nobody anything. Mr. Carter, in fact, was such a nice guy that he wouldn't compromise his principles for anything and that made him impossible to negotiate with. He had no political debts, thus he had no influence, either. This is for LovinBilly4ever: listen up, kid, Washington isn't a lawn party and what you don't know about the candidates can ruin your life someday. It's a game for people who can and will play hardball because more is at stake than a baseball championship. Bush ain't a nice guy. But he was left a government in shambles, thanks to Slick Willie. Who do you want fighting the 9/11 terrorists? Nice guy Carter? Sex nut Clinton? Spineless Gore? Or flawed but strong Bush?

11-25-2003, 05:00 PM
The problem with that, to my mind, is that the 9/11 terrorists were mostly from Saudi Arabia, not Afghanistan OR Iraq. Also violence begets violence, hatred begets hatred, and we are, IMHO, breeding more terrorists with every bomb we drop. So what would I do I know it ain't no lawn party. I believe the only thing that will solve these problems is a fundamental systemic change. And whatver the right here and now answers are, Bush and Cheney and Rummy and Wolfie do NOT make me feel safer. Quite the opposite.

11-25-2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by haswtch
violence begets violence

Haswtch, I disagree. You have to know your enemy. The middle eastern point of view is this, "WEAKNESS begets violence."

It was Three Dollar Bill Clinton's policy of turn the other cheek that allowed 9-11 to happen. These people had been acting with impunity and no threat of retaliation save a tent or two being bombed in the desert. They just kept escalating their attacks until they hit us in spectacular fashion.

I was in Somalia in 1993, offering them puppies and singing "Give Peace a Chance" at them would not have kept over a dozen of my brother Rangers from getting killed.

G. W. Bush has thrown a gauntlet down and let it be known that if terrorism is overtly supported, or training camps spring up in a country, we will bomb the government into submission and hand said country over to their enemies.

I do not see anyone else taking us up on that in the near future.

11-28-2003, 02:02 PM
Something I postdon another thread kinda sums up how I feel. Kudos to your courage. I just think the whole planet needs to grow up. And fast. Within the current paradigm, you are right, but it's the paradigm that's killig us all.
The place where the buck stops is right here in the USA. I can't get past the TRUTH that my government has for decades played hell with people's lives all over the world, propping up and arming one leader or another as it suits them according to our "strategic interests." Those interests deemed to be synonymous with the best interests of capitalism, i.e., greed. We are the only so called civilised nation that won't ban land mines, that slays its own and imprisons at such a rate. While pricing health care and higher education out of reach of so many. IS IT JUST POSSIBLE THAT GREED IS NOT IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF LIVING THINGS??? Eric says most of the people he sees are in for "acts of selfishness." Kill one person and you go to prison. Kill thousands and you retire to some exotic clime, never to want for the rest of your days. (I stole that from an editorial about Charles Taylor of Liberia.) We need MEANINGFUL world justice. Do we need to open a dialogue with people who are mad enough at us to want to kill us? You bet. Is killing some of their guys going to make them want to stop? Um... DUH.
I believe that George Bush, Osama, Saddama, Madonna (j/k) et. al., are sincerely convinced of their own righteousness. Nobody gets up in the morning and says, Today I'm going to eff up all the little people's lives as much as I possbly can. On some level those guys too are human beings with families that love them. Was thinking about this just recently because the Secret Service was investigating Eric as possible assassin material. What a huge joke and another story. But I'm sure Laura loves George just as I do Eric.

Just as the average Iraqui family undoubtedly love one another. And yes, they probably could have done better than Saddam for a government, but shouldn't that have been their call? What a neat trick. We're going to go in there and make sure you have destroyed all your weaponry, then bomb the crap out of you to be REALLY sure.
These guys that call themselves world leaders, MANY of them, need to take a time-out worse than any of our loves ever did, because (IMHO haha) they are leading the planet straight off the edge of a freakin' cliff. Somehow the regular folks have got to find a way to rise up, but here's the puzzler: They have all the guns and money and goddess knows many more lawyers!
Which leaves us with God, and love for one another, and that's not too shabby.


11-28-2003, 02:40 PM
haswtch says what so many people outside the US believe. America has, for too long, run roughshod over the rest of us and the world is realizing this has to stop. Add to this a president who has little or no respect of many world leaders, and normal people, and it's time to listen. If we don't, and I say 'we' because this IS one world even if Bush does think the 'world' is America, and there won't be a world for much longer.

I actually had a letter from a guy a couple of years ago who is serving life with no hope of release who told me that we, the rest of the world, did exactly as America told us to do. That America ruled every nation on earth and there wasn't a thing we could do about it. As I only wrote this guy as a favour to somebody I wrote back telling him just what I thought about his views. Strange that, I never heard from him again!!!

I left Michael Moore's new book 'DUDE - Where's My Country?' at the gatehouse when I visited Tony recently. 4 weeks later he still hasn't been given it. It seems it might be on the banned publications list. What Michael Moore has to say should be taken on board by everyone. As haswtch says, the terrorists that hit the US are from Saudi Arabia and there's plenty to prove that in 'DUDE'. Read it and see.

Incidentally, I emailed Michael Moore to tell him that at least one black inmate of Illinois DOC isn't being allowed to read his book in this 'free' country Bush is so good at defending.


mrs. hernandez
11-28-2003, 06:45 PM
I think Bush is an IDIOT......... I for one don't understand much of what he says. He confuses himself all the time. I think Clinton did us alot of good after that mess that Reagan and Bush did for 12 years.

12-23-2003, 04:57 PM
Bush is an idiot...pretty much says it all...a complete idiot

12-23-2003, 06:17 PM
An idiot with a blind following.

12-23-2003, 06:33 PM
What scares me is the perception that this "idiot with a blind following" is leading this country to ruin, both economically and militarily.


12-23-2003, 06:39 PM
it feels like the devil's in the driver's seat

12-23-2003, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by Rostonhall
I left Michael Moore's new book 'DUDE - Where's My Country?' at the gatehouse when I visited Tony recently. 4 weeks later he still hasn't been given it. It seems it might be on the banned publications list. What Michael Moore has to say should be taken on board by everyone. As haswtch says, the terrorists that hit the US are from Saudi Arabia and there's plenty to prove that in 'DUDE'. Read it and see.

Michael Moore is a lardass POS that is not even an American.
If you want a read a book that will open your eyes, read "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross.

I see nothing wrong with America being the most powerful country on Earth. Why should we be so ready to embrace people who hate us for no other reason because we are a prosperous and sucessful country. People who lament about how authoritarian the US is should visit the Middle East some time.

I proudly served this country. Ducked MOST of the bullets fired at me. Carried the casket bearing the body of one of my best friends onto a C-141. A friend killed by the VERY PEOPLE the Treasonous Three Dollar Bill Clinton
tried to embrace and then tied our hands when it came time to fight.

I support Bush wholeheartedly. Howard Dean is going to go down in flames next years and (thank God) is going to take the Democratic party down with him. The wailing and gnashing of the liberals will provide great fun for four more years. The funeral pyres will burn for days. It will be glorious!

12-23-2003, 08:31 PM
Bush's convictions and authority and power to stand behind them are exactly why we should all be running for cover! He has surrounded himself with ultra conservative right-wing elitists who would turn this country into a "Christian" police state in the name of "national security" who are telling him what to do. He is no more than a popular figurehead who is able to divert attention away from what's really going on (for those of you who are Douglas Adams' fans - think Zaphod Beeblebrox here). They are attempting to destroy already poverty-stricken war-torn nations by flexing political and military muscle to oust governments who do not support the US. What is the agenda here? It's not national security. It's not about our nation's freedom. It is not about the freedom of the people of Afghanistan or Iraq. It's about money, oil, political posturing. I am frankly frightened to think that the majority of this country listens to our own media and our own government's propaganda to base "sound" decisions on. I refuse to sit back and allow Orwell's vision to become a reality without a fight. Big Brother is nearing - beware.

12-24-2003, 11:10 AM
Speed, you say you have no problem with America being the most powerful country in the world...could you consider for just a moment that that might be because you happen to have been born here. You didn't plan that. my own view would be that God or karma if you will did.
And people who live in countries now littered with land mines or toxic uranium or ravaged by hunger didn't pick either. They have the same inherent right to try to organize their lives as they see fit that you do or I do.
My biggest dissapointment with Bill Clinton was that he was basically just more of the same s*** in a different suit, nevermind all the saxophones and Rhodes scholarship and feeling everybody's pain. He shoulda inhaled.
I would not mind the United States being the most powerful country in the world if we were actually leading the world in a positive direction. What we lead the world in is conspicuous consumption.
I'm sorry you had to go through war and prison. You may say you're not sorry but to me that sounds like a hellacious rough ride. and you seem like a downright fun and bright person, who coulda found better things to do in a world at peace both within and without national borders. But you have been through two wars. For what? I'm sorry but from where I sit it looks like greed. Not on your part so much- but greed is the underlying force behind much of US foreign and domestic policy. Greed is "American as apple pie."
Sorry if I don't sound like a capitalist. I'm not a Marxist either. All I am is one more person trying to point out that the collaterall damage of allowing greed to run the world is just too great. You tried to pull a fast one and got caught and did your time (hope I am not being offensive here I so do not want to be!) and you deal with it like a mensch as far as I can see:) but from my point of view, knowing somebody who's been TOTALLY railroaded into ten years while his parents quite possibly die, this Great System of ours has a LOT of work to do living up to its ideals. Which are indeed wonderful and beautiful!
you see, I believe in the Devil because I've seen him working through men (and women), and I believe convincing people that mad greed was OK was his SECOND greatest trick. That is SO not what Christ said...and the people running this show convince everyone they are on the side of Life because they oppose abortion and don't deal well with gay folks. I don't remember Christ even referencing those issues much. He had a bit to say about greed though...Speed Addiction I hope you're doing something very good and happy this Christmas. I may disagree with what you say, but I would defend to the death your right to say it. If America were truly to lead the world, people in every country would by now have the right to say what they want, because that is the very powerful IDEA that makes us (we say) a beacon for the free world. Unfortunately, what we HAVE done is 1) sell a whole lotta guns and such to a whole lotta crazy people and 2) make drugs the most profitable crop in a lot of really poor places. If that's a beacon I'd hate to see a flashlight with dying batteries.
I'm sorry to rant, man. I just never can resist ranting at cute longhair Republicans, ask my ex:) Merry Christmas, man!

12-24-2003, 12:03 PM
ROFLMAO!!! Haswtch that's too funny - long haired Republicans! Who knew there was such a thing :D

12-24-2003, 01:05 PM
Rumor has it men are always in favor of bush and more bush.

12-24-2003, 01:44 PM
MiamiChica - WAAHAAHAA!!!! I'm going to have to remember that! :haha:

12-24-2003, 09:48 PM
People that don't know sh*t about politics should not um u know discuss politics.....nuff said


12-25-2003, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by MiamiChica22
Rumor has it men are always in favor of bush and more bush.

I don't know. Slick and smooth has it's merits.


12-25-2003, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by HotLatinaMILF4U
People that don't know sh*t about politics should not um u know discuss politics.....nuff said


I know this much. As it stands right now, it appears that an insane person is going to get the Democratic nomination.

The Democrats, with their seniors, unions, government employees, food stamp recipiants and all the other hogs at the trough are virtually Garaunteed 40% of the vote. 40% is going to vote Democratic even if Osama Bin Laden, Ming the Merciless or Scooby Doo were the nominee. A baloney (this the DEMOCRATIC nominee, remember?) sandwich would have 40% of the vote.

Just watch, even with that advantage right out of the gate, the election is going crash around Insane Asylum Dean's ears
in a complete repudiation of his "Hate Bush! Hate Bush!" strategy. This is going to cost the Dems a lot of money also because a lot of contributors are going to be scared away by the bloodbath next November is going to be.

This much I do know. Hell anybody with a halfway decent pair of eyes and ears can see this. Oh wait, the whole head stuck in the sand blocks all of this out.

12-25-2003, 08:49 AM
I cannot help but wonder why honest and objective criticism of some very questionable White House policies has to be framed as "hate Bush," or the person who raises the issue is branded as insane.

Someone has to point out that our President has:

1. Demonstrated very poor fiscal judgement by blowing the first surplus in decades, dramatically increasing spending while at the same time cutting taxes.

2. Lied to the American People in order to justify a war. Sort of makes lying about having oral sex with an intern pale in comparison, doesn't it?

3. Went to great lengths to destroy civil liberties including holding American citizens without charges or access to an attorney. I'm not sure that I understand how Jose Padilla is more dangerous than was Ted Bundy or Timothy McVeigh. We didn't suspend the constitution in those cases, and I see no reason to start now.

4. Demonstrated a curious indifference to corporate organized crime. If someone is caught holding up a 7-Eleven their butt is in jail the same day. When you are Kenny Boy Lay and you rob tens of thousands of their life savings, they don't seem to be able to lay a glove on you.

Ditto for the Koslowski, ditto for Ebers, etc. etc.

I might also point out that when the Governor of California called for a federal investigation of the way Enron and El Paso Electric were robbing his state blind, his pleas fell on dead ears.

Did someone mention hogs at the trough?

5. After the 9/11 attacks their was massive support for the United States around the world. The French newspaper, Le Monde, printed the headline, "We are all Americans." Yet in only a couple of short years, the President has managed to alienate some of our strongest allies.

Let's face it, right up until the Iraqi war, guess which country ranked number 5 in loaning money to Saddam Hussein's Iraq? It was the U.S. Number 1 was Japan, by the way.

The list goes on and on.

The second greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he was everywhere!

12-25-2003, 09:54 AM
Alienating the French is a problem? Not worry, once some forgien power is marching their armies past the Awful Tower, they'll be begging to be our friend. It's happened before.

12-25-2003, 10:20 AM

I would normally not say anything, especially on Christmas but I would like to remind you that we do have members here in PTO who are French.

In case you seem to have forgotten, we were repaying the French for their help in the Revolutionary War. When it seems to me a fledling country (who shall remain nameless) but we happen to live in was begging for help.

This is coming from a German whose family fought the French in three different wars. The Franco-Prussian War of the early 1870s, WW I, and WW II.

I have read the diaries of my ancestors, even into WW II they had the deepest respect for the French Armed Forces, just that at times, like so many other armed forces, including the U.S. their strategy and tactics of the time were flawed.

Oh and incidently, if it had not been for the French and the British holding our (German) troops from 1914 to 1917, when your American politicians thought they were going to ride in with their troops and save the day, you would have not won the war.

Just remember the Statue of Liberty representing ALL that we stand for in America was given to us by the French, does that mean that we have to give that statue back also?

Oh by the way - Froehliche Weihnachten!


12-25-2003, 11:53 AM
I'm sorry for my gruffness, but I think all of this GLOBALISM is a crock. Where do people get off feeling that America should be apologetic for being more posperous and more powerful than other countries. That make me proud to be American not some whiney "World Citizen."

There is no reason for us to feel apologetic. If other countries go down the tubes it is because of their own silly policies not ours. Zimbabwe is a good example. Most of the Islamic Countries are another. Rampant fundamentalism is a sure stopper of progress and prosperity. Not our fault they are stuck in the 13th century with all of their "Jihad! Jihad!" crap.

I proudly fought under our flag, not a flag of "Globalization." I fought to make things better for us as Americans or for the interests of my country.

12-25-2003, 01:41 PM
There really is a difference between being apologetic and being arrogant.

The fact is that the world is a small place that is becoming smaller all the time. What happens in emerging nations can very much affect what happens here.

It is interesting to note that most of the Islamic countries were not particularly fundamentalist or radical prior to the 1950's. The rise of radicalism can be very much traced to the policies of the west towards those countries, particularly U.S. policy.

You make it sound as if these things happen in a vacuum, but that is not the case. For example, it was the CIA that kept the Shah of Iran in power. When fundamentalism started to rule Iran there was little that could be done to stop it. Yet, I strongly doubt that Iran would have been radical or anti-American at all if we had not proped up the Shah.

When the Shah fell, it was once again CIA intervention that proped up one of Iran's rivals, Iraq. We may have not created Saddam Hussein, but we certainly gave him strong support in the war against Iran, and looked the other way when he gassed the Kurds using technology that we helped supply.

Come to think of it, perhaps some apologies are in order.

12-25-2003, 02:40 PM
Whew! This is amazing dialogue here, thanks for all the viewpoints..keep them coming. I'm learning quite a bit.

Merry Christmas Everyone!


12-25-2003, 07:26 PM
Techie, it goes back further than the 1950's. Goes back to Napoleon's conquest of Egypt. No Islamic power has faced a European or Caucasian heavy Army and not suffered defeat. Every time that they have face an enemy based on a western model (I'll include Isreal in this) they have been defeated and embarassingly so. Kinda makes you wonder if all these jihads are really what God wants doesn't it?

Let's see an Army of God's Chosen people and An Army of Allah faced each other in the Sinai (sp?) years ago. Who won? I honestly do not believe God had a hand in this either way. But if I was Islamic I would wonder why Allah was looking on me with such disfavor.

Maybe we should roll over and let them win a war for the good of their self-esteem. Or let them burn 3000 Americans to death, oh wait. They already did that and according to some very galling and repugnant points of view, we deserved it. That is a crock of some very smelly stuff there.

12-25-2003, 07:57 PM
or maybe we should keep bombing the crap out of them in Jesus' name. That'll calm everything right down.
This is a planet amigo, not a Super Bowl. We are all breathing one atmosphere and warmed by one sun. if you and George Bush and company- and your opposite numbers- want to make it all about who's got bigger props (kinda like the gangs, come to think of it) then kindly start using paintball guns and let the rest of us thrive unmolested.Life, properly understood, should be about WHAT is right not WHO is right. Plenty of Iraqui families would feel me on this. Sigh.

12-25-2003, 08:26 PM
And the Crusades were better than what happened on 9/11 how?

How many people were murdered by European, caucasian-heavy armed forces who had undertaken a vow to rid the world of Mohammedan tryanny???

And the difference would be??? So the "holy" wars continue and because we are a "supreme" nation with military might and money it's OK to attack countries who may not subscribe to the belief that the middle-aged white capitalist man is all powerful, righteous and good? At least their motives aren't capitalist driven. They are fighting for the love of their religion not the love of money.

No one deserves to die for their beliefs.

But I digress. I guess. Off topic again. How does this keep happening to me?

12-25-2003, 09:25 PM
I'm sure that except for a footnote in his morning briefing, Osama Bin Laden and Afghanistan were not on the Presidents mind at all 9/11/01. We did not drag any Al Queda operatives kicking and screaming on four airliners and consequently to their to their deaths that morning.

I can't believe some people actually feel this was justifyied in some way! Group hugs are not a solution. That is just silly pie in the sky drivel. Yeah this is a planet, but a planet has borders, it has always been that way. There are different cultures. There are different religions and some of those religions are not compatible, never will be. Think it is only the US?

The Hutus and Tutsis slaughtered each other over culture and racial differences. Their hatred for each other has nothing to do with how mighty the US is. Look at Zimbabwe, hundreds of white families have been murdered and had their farms stolen from them. I'm sure that there is some silly liberal somewhere willing to lay the blame for this at Bush's feet. Who knows, Howard Dean just might. Tell those people this is a planet. Maybe we ought to ship a plane load of puppies, flower power buses, and acoustic guitars so they can sing Kumbaya to each other. Yeah, there is a solution, in some fruitcake dimension somewhere, but not on this planet.

I'm sure the Iraqi families who had members butchered by Saddam Hussien are very disappointed that we showed up.

Ever seen the bodies of American Troops dragged throught the streets by a mob? I get the feeling that there are a few respondents to the thread that would like to. About those troops dragged through the streets? I very easily could have been one of them. I knew them.

12-25-2003, 09:57 PM
Were their lives worth it? What exactly did they lose their lives for? I mean no disrespect and I am not a tree hugger by any stretch of the imagination - I understand what you are saying. But the loss of life for any political or religious reason is ridiculous! It's not about group hugs it's about humanity!
What is the point? Sending a 20 year old boy to his death no matter what his country, religion, or societal beliefs are is wrong! What good is it doing to send our children to Iraq to be killed or wounded and to kill and to wound when there will be a regime to take power that could be just as bad or worse than what they've already had? How did removing Sadaam Hussein from power rid the threat of terrorists?
And who is to say that OUR way is the best way? I question our egocentrism. We spend billions of dollars on "national security" and global political muscle flexing to supposedly protect the interests of our citizens when we allow those same citizens to starve, live on the streets, die from disease, flounder in inadequate public schools, and wither away in prisons designed to warehouse not to "reform".
The fact remains that the US bottom line is mercenary. There is no humanitarian goal other than to brainwash us into believing that is so.
Liberal or conservative plays no part in this for me. I do not claim either one. I question my government. That is my constitutional right. I will not be led blindly into believing all is good and right with what our government does. To say that our military men and women are over there fighting for my right to free speech though is not accurate (so don't come back at me with an argument on that point :D). We are no longer fighting anyone for those rights - we are trying to dominate the political arena with our arrogance. Bush, Dean, whoever - it just doesn't matter. All the major political players right now are all about one thing - dominance and submission. Bush scares the p*ss out of me because he has the group of people congregated to make a real big mess of things. In my opinion, he has opened Pandora's box and we will be paying for what he is doing for a very long time.

12-25-2003, 11:30 PM
Actually, it isn't very hard to come up with an example of an Islamic power kicking the living crap out of "a caucasion (Arabs look pretty caucasion to me, BTW) heavy army." It happened within my lifetime in Algers against, of all people, the French.

For those why are unfamiliar with this very timely piece of history, Algeria was a French colony from 1830 through 1962. You can read a very complete history of this at

To the French, Algeria was very much a part of their country. It was a very popular holiday destination. The national language of Algeria was French, and the capital city of Algeres had a very Western flavor.

When the rebellion broke out, the French viewed it in much the same way that Americans might view a rebellion in Hawaii. Imagine, if you will, that native Hawaiians mounted a terrorist movement aimed at indendence from the U.S.

To make a long story short, and to interest people in reading the history link that I just listed, it was not a pretty outcome. The Algerians waged a terroristic war against the French that sounds as if it came out of today's headlines. The French used a variety of means to try to maintain control, including torture against the leaders of the rebellion. At one point, they even thought that they were winning.

Depending on whose figures you believe, when the dust settled between 300,000 and 1.5 million people were dead (the French put the number at 350,000 the post-war Algerian government used the higher figure) as a direct result of the war for indendence. It ended in 1962 with independence from the French.

I greatly fear that the situation on the West Bank could easily take on an Algerian sized death toll, with an independent Palistinean state as the outcome. I also think that the U.S. could see similar things happen in Arab countries directly within the U.S. sphere of influence.

It was very ironic that during the early days of the Iraqi war we heard all about shock and awe. You see, shock and awe was what I felt on September 11 when two of my friends died in the attack on the World Trade Center.

I would never suggest that we roll over and ignore what happened. The liberation of Afghanistan was the proper action to take. Al Queda was headquartered in that country, and it is Al Queda that attacked us on September 11.

Iraq is a considerably different story. Attaching Iraq was not a pre-emptive action, because pre-emption implies an immediate threat where there clearly was none. Saddam has been under our thumb since the first gulf war. He was not involved in the September 11th attacks, and the Bush administration has grudgingly conceeded that point. Nor were there any weapons of mass destruction. It's pretty damned hard to hide a nuclear weapons program. Nuclear materials can often be detected by aircraft or even satellites. No bugs have been found. Saddam was bluffing all along. That should be clear to any history student who is familiar with the tactics of Saddam's role model, Joseph Stalin.

Don't get me wrong. Saddam was a murdering tyrant of the worst kind. The world is better off without him in power. But it is pretty clear that he posed a very minimal threat to the U.S., and a relatively low level threat to the middle east.

12-25-2003, 11:59 PM
Well I forgot about the Algerian Rebellion, but then since the French have only one war (and that was because it was a revolution of French against French) it really does not count.

I mean, one has to look only at the Battle of Agincourt (1415, was it? I know it was in the fall) as a microcosm of French Military might. Even with superior numbers (of cavalry, mind you vs. light infantry) they suffered 3 to 1 losses because of incompetent commanders. There really has not been much change since.

12-26-2003, 12:33 AM
"Well I forgot about the Algerian Rebellion, but then since the French have only one war (and that was because it was a revolution of French against French) it really does not count."

It seems that it was the French who saw the Algerians as French. The Algerians certainly didn't see it that way. But the Algerian war against the French happened during the present day, using modern terrorist tactics against a modern army, not in the 15th century using using swords.

Nor were the French army exactly the sort of panty waists that you suggest that they were. The overwhelming majority of the 300,000+ dead were Algerians, not French troops. But in the end, it was pretty obvious that it is impossible over the long haul for a country to hold a colony that doesn't want to be held. The price just becomes too high.

Unfortunately, I think that lesson is about to be relearned in Israel and possibly in the Iraqi situation.

BTW, if you would like another example of a "Caucasion heavy army" getting the crap kicked out of them an Islamic nation, you only have to look back to the 1980's when the Soviets had a rather difficult time of it in Afghanistan. True, the Soviets probably didn't have God on their side, but they did have the resources of a superpower. It didn't do much good though, did it? In fact, it contributed greatly to bankrupting the Soviet government and ultimately bringing it down. But perhaps the Russians were just a bunch of sissies like the French.

12-26-2003, 06:59 AM
Ok, I should be writing letters to CarolK and Tonib, but once again I am going to jump into the fire from the frying pan.

Seems when it comes to politics, I am always getting toasted!

I am going to say this, not because I took offense to your "World Citizen" comment, but because I want to make a point.

I chose to be a citizen of the United States, I was born in Germany, I have German citizenship, however, when I was 18 I was given the honor and privilege to choose United States citizenship. I served this country, in it's military, as you did, honorably and hopefully with some distinction for 20 years.

Even now, if asked, I believe that both you and I would put our uniforms back on and go once more into "Harm's Way" to serve our country.

I find myself in a very hard place to be for I consider myself patriotic to two countries, and support each countries national interests.

That being said, it is my firm belief that the United States under the current administration is the greatest threat to world peace at this time. Please, remember the United States says it is not the world police. Now they need to stop acting like we are.

When it come to Europe, I am German first and foremost in my belief. I oppose any efforts to unify europe into a sort of "United States of Europe" except in one point. I fully support a unified command of european military forces. Only to protect europe from the expanding desires of the current United States administration who is conducting a witchhunt for terrorist.

In the case of Iraq, not only should Saddam be tried for crimes against humanity, but so should other leaders participating in this war.


12-26-2003, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by FriscoLady

In the case of Iraq, not only should Saddam be tried for crimes against humanity, but so should other leaders participating in this war.


Who is to try the leaders? The UN? For all of its posturing and grumbling, the UN is not unlike the Wizard of Oz. Once the curtain was drawn back and the light of truth shown upon it, what was back there was folly. The UN is nothing more than The League of Nations 2. You think it was fear of the UN that made Kah-Daffy open his WMD program for inspection?

12-26-2003, 11:17 AM
I just thought I would add this. While this discussion has been quite lively, I am truly impressed with this whole thread.
I am a member on some other boards where political discussions degrade into pretty venomous personal attacks. It has not happened here. In fact it is quite obvious to me that we are pretty well versed in current events and world history. Napolean's conquest of Egypt, The Algierian Rebellion, Agincourt in the 1400s, Russian Invasion of Afghanistan have all been touched upon here. Not the stuff of dummies. I'll say again, I/m very impressed.

12-26-2003, 11:34 AM
I think the man is doing the best he can.. but I couldn't help but laugh when a friends said to me "God help us.. this counrty is being ran by a Bush, a Dick & a Colin"

12-26-2003, 12:49 PM
Ya know Speed, I have to agree with you. As passionate as some of us are about this topic, it is nice to see it discussed without the usual barage of ad mominem attacks. Quite a statement about the caliber of people on this board.

01-03-2004, 12:02 AM
What do you think will happen if GWB has another 4 years in office?

01-16-2004, 08:32 AM

I have stayed away from this thread for awhile, because even though I find history and the making history fascinating, in regards to Bush I have very strong opinions of the man. None of them are good.

I do not mean to, and I pray that I don't offend anyone, but I fear that I will. This is my opinion, and I respect and honor all others opinions as well.

First, I will have to say that I believe, that yes Bush will be elected for another four years. Second, I have to say that this is a sad reflection upon the American people that he will be.

I was raised both in Germany and in the United States, because of this and the influence of both cultures I think I look at things - shall we say - outside of the box of the United States. I try to see the effects both to the States and to other nations.

Frankly, I fear the United States under this President, I think we as a nation have become the greatest threat to world peace since World War II. I pray that I am wrong, but I fear that if he does not lose the election that he could possibly be responsible for another war as terrible as WW II and the U.S. will be looked upon much the same as NAZI Germany.

The Spanish Prime Minister put it so well a couple of days ago. I am paraphrasing because I cannot find the exact quote.

"America is an empire, and everybody hates empire."

Even though we are still technically a Republic, our current administration acts much like an Emperor and spoiled little child of one at that. Though there a many, many differences our current situation reminds me very strongly of the years before Rome changed from a Republic to an Empire.

The time of going from representative government to the rule of one. Unfortunately, I believe in many respects we as a nation have already passed that line.

I believe that it has been forgotten that the people are the true government not the politicians, I don't put that on the President, I lay that squarely on the American people, we (and I include myself because I was once a citizen before my conviction, I do not consider myself such now) have decided in all of our lives that we want the easy way out. Let the leaders deal with this, we don't need to be informed on politics, both local and International. That is what we elect them for. But, do we really elect anyone anymore, or is it a matter of money and the influence in buys.

On the local political front, we don't gripe about taxes, etc, ad infinitum, because the state will provide for us. I actually heard a neighbor say something similar once.

In most cases, the average American, says I don't need to know anything about crime, etc., etc., the police, etc., will protect my family and I.

I don't include those of us at PTO in that we know what it is to be victims of that type of thinking, unfortunately, in alot of our cases we only woke up when we became ensnared in our supposed justice system. At least, that was my case.

We are looking for our savior, our politician, our leader to lead us to continued greatness as a nation, to provide safety on our streets, and to give us the illusion that we still can provide for our families and have a good standard of living.

Be careful America, you may get what you want, like we Germans thought we did in the 1930s. What we got was a Wolf in Sheep's clothes.


01-16-2004, 08:48 AM
A member here once said, " i am hippy, i sing peace" ( i dont think that was her exact words) but i am singing with her LOL

01-16-2004, 08:50 AM
Did i hear as well that he was wanting to send peopleto the moon or something to live for 3 years? Please correct me if i am wrong. But if that is the case, for crying out loud, is it not enough that we are spending enough money building back what we distroyed? and now this? So much for the USA being broke huh?

01-16-2004, 09:51 AM
Yeah, Lulu, he apparently thinks outer space should be our big priority right now. IMHO, it's election year grandstanding of the worst sort. If I was an intelligent life form in outer space right now, I'd be weeping in my Tang.

01-16-2004, 09:56 AM

well, that is all we need.

01-16-2004, 10:20 AM
Patti I totally agree with you all what you stated. I also have the feeling that he will have another 4 years in office. If this is indeed the case then I will find some comfort in the fact that our laws prohibit a third term in office....hmpf! unless he decided to change that too. Everything with this administration seems eerily orchestrated and dishonest.

I posted this thread is because I wanted to hear clear reasons (not rhetoric) as to why people support this President. I have thoroughly enjoyed to respectful exchange of opinions.

01-16-2004, 04:31 PM
If this is indeed the case then I will find some comfort in the fact that our laws prohibit a third term in office.

You know, the a lot of the same people I see expressing relief about this are the same ones who were complaining about it preventing Clinton from a third term! :rolleyes:

01-16-2004, 10:02 PM
When Clinton won the White House, the federal budget deficit was at a historic high of $290 billion, 10 million Americans were out of work and the nation's economic growth rate under the outgoing Republican administration was the lowest in more than half a century. Clinton introduced his controversial economic plan that raised the income taxes of the richest 1.4 percent of Americans. We immediately heard from the Gloom and Doom congressional Republicans, every one of whom voted against the Clinton plan. Sen. Phil Gramm, R-Texas, announced, "This tax bill is a one-way ticket to a recession." House Republican Whip Newt Gingrich predicted, "This is the Democrat machine's recession, and each one of them will be held personally accountable."

What followed is unarguable: creation of more than 22 million new jobs; the nation's lowest unemployment rate in 30 years; the lowest unemployment rate among women in 40 years; and the lowest Hispanic and African-American unemployment rate in history. The nation went from the largest budget deficits in history to the largest budget surpluses in history, while the average family's income went up more than $5,000...

Let's be blunt. Bill Clinton gave his political opponents a pistol loaded with his own reckless and unacceptable self-indulgence, and then re-loaded it on the way out the door with his pardon of the loathsome Marc Rich. But Mike Michaud was right. Bill Gates is still there. Alan Greenspan is still there. The House Republicans are still there. Ronald Reagan's tax and budget policies are still honored in the White House. The only two things missing are a good economy and Bill Clinton.

01-17-2004, 12:23 PM
We just had the best 1/4 of economic growth in 20 years. The deficit right now is nothing compared to what it would have been if the laughably silly "Hillary-Care" had been pushed through. I remember praising God when congress (a Democratic congress with enough votes to easily pass it) came to thier senses.

Clinton's panty waisted (Democrat I guess he couldn't help that) handling of the terrorist attacks against American interests were more directly responsible for 9-11 than anything else. What kind of blow was that for our economy? Bill Clinton's wishy-washy attitude toward the military was directly responsible for the death of over a dozen fellow Army Rangers (I helped load the caskets) and the scars I bear on my face and body. I was awarded a purple heart and a bronze star. When a Medal of Honor is awarded, it is placed upon the awardee by the President. If I had been awarded one, I would have spit in his face.

How appreciative was he of our efforts? By executive order, he made the Black Beret, which had always been a hard won distinction of the Rangers, standard issue for every soldier. There was no reason for him to do this other to slap us in the face. Words cannot ever describe the hate I have toward this man.

01-17-2004, 06:53 PM
hatred will damage the vessel in which it is stored, more certainly than it will damage the place where it is poured. {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{speed}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

01-17-2004, 08:02 PM
I'm very sorry to hear about the loss of your fellow rangers, just as sad as I am to hear today that we have lost 500 soldiers in this war so far.

In my humble opinion I wonder if September 11th could have been prevented if GWB had listened and took heed to warnings he was given. This was not a complete sneak attack.