Do you think that the war on drugs is a racist law? Seeing as african Americans are diproportionately represented in the prison system it makes me wonder if this isn't just another form of slavery. They don't typically look for drug dealers in white neighborhoods and especially not rich white neighborhoods. They look for them in poor ethnically diverse african american neighborhoods. In my opinion any law that is put in place that incarcerates more people of one specific ethnicity over another it is a racist law and needs to be looked at. I think that the sentences amongst blacks tend to be much harsher than those that are white. A suggestion that a friend of mine had was that it may be a form of population control. Stereotypically speaking blacks make more babies than whites (not true numbers wise - percentage wise but not number wise.) so how do we control them having so many babies take them out of society so they can't make any more. This whole thing just disgusts me and i was wondering if anyone else had an opinion on this matter. thanks :confused:

They don't typically look for drug dealers in white neighborhoods and especially not rich white neighborhoods.

The path of least resistance (fastest route back to the donut-- I mean cop--shop) is to go after the low-hanging fruit. I'm sure there are drug dealers in my neighborhood (I live on the westside near Los Angeles, with a Prius and a BMW in every driveway), but unless you had lots of good information and a search warrant, you're never going to find them. If someone's slinging on the street, that's an easy bust, no warrant required, and the odds are no private attorney challenging every aspect pre-trial -- an easier bust all the way around. Plus, it depends where you're at... White trailer park meth lab communities stock the jails full of white faces.

But anyway, there's a pretty simple way to avoid it -- don't trap, come up on your own honestly and legally, and you don't have to worry about being part of any overrepresentation down at the hoosegow. I'm just sayin'...

i tend to agree with strasse...... the government knows who is going to fight against them. think about it... the black kid from the ghetto that has no education and no family support or the white kid who lives in the suburbs with a physician as a father. if you were the cops who would you go after? who would be easier?

i am not saying that they dont get busted... but those in lower class brackets seems to get busted more often. i donot think its a race issue but more of a money/class in society issue. it just seems to be that most lower class families are colored...

I agree with all the above. African American males have to really watch their backs and stay on the straight and narrow because there is a witch hunt out there and they want our black men. It is a way to keep us from having black babies. They are looking at 20 years from now the black population will be greatly reduced . They are counting on black women having to turn to other races to reproduce therefore eventually eliminating a pure black race. I got all this off a site for white supremicists. They have members in every courthouse, congress, police station, law office etc. The KKK is runnin things on the down low.

Thanks for that, BabygirlNGary. Now, back to reality...

:haha: :haha: :haha: Sadly that is reality!!!!!!

There is some truth in the white supremacist groups still having some say...and it's STILL called the 'good ol' boys'. Just do a google on Martin Lee Anderson and tell me there's not.

You will not make me believe he died of sickle cell. It is not possible for a beating to bring on sickle cell death like it would be if the child had asthma. I just don't have it in me. And, the gloating and snide remarks these people had to say...I was ashamed FOR them. I wasn't there but I can bet MY LIFE that there's several involved in that mess that will answer sooner or later for what they done or condoned.

But, there's also truth in what Strasse says...if this boy's parents had the money and time to keep him out of trouble he wouldn't have been there to start with...

I am NOT saying it was their fault. Do not hang me up for that statement. I only meant that in this day and time, it is so hard to raise four on my own. And, I am white and all the kids are too. I just have to do the best I can and give the rest up to a higher power.

These days it's not so much who you know or who you 'do'...it's how much money you got for EVERYTHING!

Furthermore, since we're stating our opinions here...the war on drugs is the same as the war on cancer and HIV. If the government WANTED to stop it, it would have been nipped in the bud a long time ago.

i kinda believe that there is some truth to what babygirl is saying. not really saying that they are all members of the KKK but they do share some of the same views. (if not some than damn near all of the same views.)
I mean lets be honest... politics is the 'white mans' playground. they run it. Dont you think they notice the statistics of which race is incarcerated most of the time?

look at the statistics i found from infoplease.com

About 10.4% of the entire African-American male population in the United States aged 25 to 29 was incarcerated, by far the largest racial or ethnic group—by comparison, 2.4% of Hispanic men and 1.2% of white men in that same age group were incarcerated. According to a report by the Justice Policy Institute in 2002, the number of black men in prison has grown to five times the rate it was twenty years ago. Today, more African-American men are in jail than in college. In 2000 there were 791,600 black men in prison and 603,032 enrolled in college. In 1980, there were 143,000 black men in prison and 463,700 enrolled in college.

its a shame but its reality. everyone knows that things will not be changing anytime soon. if you grew up in the ghetto, low income, barely enough money to pay the light bill, waiting in line for hours to get food stamps, etc..(the list goes on forever) and you seen a way to make quick cash to take care of your family--- what would you do?
would you still try to suffer it out or take the risk of getting caught and arrested? i do not support any illegal activity but I understand the reasons for it and I understand that you have to do what you have to do to survive. i am a black person and i see all that people around me have going on with them. (thank god my mother moved me from that environment) but I still have all my old friends. i still hear about the crooked things that happens . i still see the power that 'white' people have..(do martin lee anderson ring a bell?-- what about jena 6?).. its just a real shame how things are. its a shame. it hurts. but its out of my hands........ you just gotta learn to deal with it. we are the minority not the majority. (well in the government anyway)

I mean lets be honest... politics is the 'white mans' playground. they run it.

Yes, let's be honest and specific...the rich white man...that nine times out of ten hasn't a clue to the average Joe's life.

Not saying rich is all that bad, just a totally different lifestyle and didn't the constitution say something about 'a group of our peers'? I just don't see it happening.

didn't the constitution say something about 'a group of our peers'?

I don't mean to sound as snippy as this is going to sound, but, rather than kinda-sorta guesstimate about what you remember the Constitution saying, why not look it up? I realize civics class was a long time ago for all (well, most ;)) of us, and that most of y'all didn't have Chemerinsky shoveling Constitutional Law down your throat in law school, but the Constitution is available online, for free, from myriad sources and isn't all that long to read. (For criminal law, pretty much everything you need is in the 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, and 14th amendments.)

What the Constitution actually says is: "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed . . ." (6th Amendment)

That's been interpreted by the Court as requiring a jury that's "impartial and
drawn from a fair cross section of the community," WAINWRIGHT v. WITT, 469 U.S. 412 n1 (1985), and expounding on that is left as an exercise for the reader (I was at work until 4am last night, I'm fried).

Regardless, I live in a pretty well-off area (I think the median home price in my zip code is over a million, though I didn't pay anything close to that for my condo) and when I was called for jury duty (but not empaneled), the folks in the assembly room with me weren't uniformly my immediate neighbors -- it was a pretty comprehensive cross-section.

I don't mean to sound as snippy as this is going to sound,

That's been interpreted by the Court as requiring a jury that's "impartial and
drawn from a fair cross section of the community," WAINWRIGHT v. WITT, 469 U.S. 412 n1 (1985), and expounding on that is left as an exercise for the reader (I was at work until 4am last night, I'm fried).



First, don't worry about sounding snippy...Lord knows I could use some tact myself sometimes. If my mother didn't agree with something I said but knew she wouldn't get any where with me, she'd have done the same thing...found something to chastise me about.

I appreciate you correcting me, that way I don't go off some where and look that ignorant, again.

Second, no matter what the actual wording of the constitution is, I still don't see it happening.

I guess I was just wrong, wrong, wrong all around. I was thinking that the LAWS should be made by a group of our peers, but then...I guess we'd have to vote the right ones in...and that would mean having a real vote, not a government, covered-up-in-red-tape catastrophe, that's happened the last couple of times I was actually trying to pay attention.

I could care less about that jury because they have to go by the law as it's explained to them by the judge.

I apologize for bringing up the constitution instead of just stating my opinion as is.

I don't think it's about race it's about money. Those that have money can afford good attorneys and get them off. Those that don't have money can't afford a good attorney so they get stuck with a public defender and usually get the max sentencing. This can go for either white or black cause we all know not all white people are rich and not all black people are poor. Those are sterotypes that are being assumed.

Hmm, in our town it goes in cycles - for years it was every white, trash, redneck crank whore junkie they could get their hands on. Racking sentences comparable to murder. then nothing for 5 or 6 years, now it's black men and white women and crack - they issued 74 warrants last week early in the morning and got them all. I am wondering what type of sentencing they will get as well. But we are a pretty small town, around 40,000 or so and we are part of what was known as "little dixie" so they will probaby rack up even worse time.

i agree that those are stereotypes but there is some truth to it. there are more white people that are rich and more black people are poor. i am not saying ALL of them are but truth is what it is. (or at least thats how it is in my part of town,)

This can go for either white or black cause we all know not all white people are rich and not all black people are poor. Those are sterotypes that are being assumed.

Black,white hispanic,it dont make a shit ya did wrong ya going down PERIOD!!!!!!

But narcotics is americas number 1 form of income IMO!

I think it's more of a class struggle than racist...if you are poor or working-class, you can't afford the best lawyers, etc., no matter what your race

Drugs has a very long history in this country,,I saw one doc where Cocaine,,the main drug putting african american males in jail was once given to them as dock workers to get the work done fast,,,they were not counting on the addiction,,nor this rumor that it makes them horny and therefore will run out raping white women(now this is what the doc said),,so all of a sudden its illegal for blacks to have cocaine meanwhile the rest of the country was putting it in soda water,,,,it went down hill from there.

EDUCATION is what it boils down to...typically blacks/hispanics are lower income, less educated in many areas not all of course...so they turn to drugs for fast $$...HOW MANY DRUG DEALERS DO YOU KNOW THAT RETIRE TO A GOOD LIFE? White or Black? Personally I think all drug dealers should get the death penalty since they pedal drugs that kill and ruin lives by the dozens....just my opinion because I spent the last few years in hell because of crack dealers who deliver! Black Hisp white no difference, do you think drugs discriminate? Anyone too lazy to get a real job could be a drug dealer, color not a matter..just laziness...All breeds can choose to sell dope it is only the dumb ones who choose that lifestle though.....

Personally I think all drug dealers should get the death penalty since they pedal drugs that kill and ruin lives by the dozens....just my opinion because I spent the last few years in hell because of crack dealers who deliver! Black Hisp white no difference, do you think drugs discriminate? Anyone too lazy to get a real job could be a drug dealer, color not a matter..just laziness...All breeds can choose to sell dope it is only the dumb ones who choose that lifestyle though.....

These are some mighty strong words here, cruise. I can certainly understand your pain, however...this would be the same as suing the gun manufacturers for the people that shoot the guns, no?

How about suing the Producers of movie's with gruesome violence and drug use, making it okay?

Let's not worry about those people that got caught up and addicted to this stuff, or the ignorant people that bought or stole the guns or the parents that allow the kids to watch this stuff.

It's all supply and demand. The supply wouldn't be worth a penny if the demand wasn't there.

Marty wouldn't be serving a life sentence if his parents hadn't moved to Florida or if his parents were more strict or more lenient or if he'd had different friends or if the guy woudn't have been there to sell them to him or...
Marty wouldn't be serving a life sentence if he hadn't used drugs?

We can blame it on all kinds of things, but the fact remains, Marty used the drugs...I have never known or even known OF a drug dealer that would deliver without a call requesting such delivery.

As long as there is demand, there will be supply.

And, let's not forget the millions my kids will be due from the tobacco company upon my death because I smoked my self too death. ;)

Instead of worrying about how lazy Marty's drug dealer is I am more interested in his ability and will power to control his addiction. He owns it, it's his own damn fault that he's addicted.

shoogabritches..........

I COULDNT AGREE WITH YOU MORE!!!! when will people stop placing blame on other people and look into themselves? Isn't one of the steps in the treatment for drug addiction is to take responsibility for YOUR actions. Supply and demand is what all businesses are based on. and drug dealing is just that.. a business. (an illegal and bad business, nonetheless, a business)
McDonalds food can my clog arteries and i can die if the clot goes to my heart. If i die from a clot -------is it my fault for buying the bad food or is it Mcdonalds fault for giving me what i asked and paid for?

This is typical for a drug user to blame a dealer for their own problems. Drug users are to blame for their use of drugs and noone else. If there were no dealers the user would find some way to use some kind of drug to get the high they so badly want. Laziness causes drug users to keep using to fight the pain inside them instead of getting off the drug and deal with their pain in a more constructive way. Many people cant get a real job for various reasons color being one of them so they make money however they can to support their families. I would not call that dumb.EDUCATION is what it boils down to...typically blacks/hispanics are lower income, less educated in many areas not all of course...so they turn to drugs for fast $$...HOW MANY DRUG DEALERS DO YOU KNOW THAT RETIRE TO A GOOD LIFE? White or Black? Personally I think all drug dealers should get the death penalty since they pedal drugs that kill and ruin lives by the dozens....just my opinion because I spent the last few years in hell because of crack dealers who deliver! Black Hisp white no difference, do you think drugs discriminate? Anyone too lazy to get a real job could be a drug dealer, color not a matter..just laziness...All breeds can choose to sell dope it is only the dumb ones who choose that lifestle though.....

so... how bout them patriots?! lololol... anyway, this is an issue that wont be resolved for the simple fact that... we simply need REFORM. I'm in Florida and let me tell ya'll something... every color and creed family is being burned alive with this drug war... white kids gettin big time as the black kids... maybe once upon a time it was only one sided, but I work for the Clerk of Courts, and man... these "time machine" judges are trying to make examples of ANY color kid that comes in front of them. And ya'll? That's real... oh and that goes for the men, too... we're being burned alive with this thing... heaven help us soon... :o

I guess it all depends on how you look at things. I'm not sure all the disproportion is due to race, seems to me the difference is between the haves and the have nots. I think money still plays a huge part in the outcomes. Those with the money get better advice, better lawyers, better deals and whatever else.

Population control? Oh ok, right - a large group of white men sat down and said gee we gotta control the black population, they're makin too many babies so we gotta lock up as many as we can. What a shame you think such things. :eek:

Maybe the difference lies in education. Education is hope and without it you are hopeless. Education levels the playing field. I just read Philadelphia has a 40% high school drop out rate. No wonder its drug infested and known as the murder capital that it is! These kids are dropping out of school and they are screwed by doing so.

Peace, just MHO.

so... how bout them patriots?! lololol... anyway, this is an issue that wont be resolved for the simple fact that... we simply need REFORM. ... heaven help us soon... :o



LOL !!!! :D :) :thumbsup: ......YEA. I SEEN THEM! im not even gonna start on them sorry dolphins. this is not the thread for that.



i guess on the drug war we will all have to just agree to disagree. because i still maintain my belief that its money and nothing more.

No doubt... and thank God Ima Raiders Fan!!!
-but we must pray... complaining wont help unless we're united on that front...


LOL !!!! :D :) :thumbsup: ......YEA. I SEEN THEM! im not even gonna start on them sorry dolphins. this is not the thread for that.



i guess on the drug war we will all have to just agree to disagree. because i still maintain my belief that its money and nothing more.

people, this is the u.s. We're talking about. you CANNOT talk about class without talking about race. period. the two are inextricably linked in this country. ask any sociology professor. to think that the disparities in drug sentencing boil down to differences in class is really naive.

i could go on and on disputing some of the things i've read here, but i won't. most people, white people in particular, do not (and may not ever) understand racism and white privilege and how it permeates EVERY institution in this country, from the courthouse to the schoolhouse. it's like the fish in the fishbowl who doesn't know what it means to be without water because its all around him every day, all day. RACISM is real, y'all. You can live in the dark if you want to, and laugh at what might seem like "conspiracy" theories, but white privilege is real.

And for the record, education doesn't level the playing field. Access to POWER levels the playing field. Education makes it possible for a few to get out of the ghetto and make a decent living, but it doesn't change the reality for the masses. If every Black and Latino child graduated from Harvard, you better believe the "rules" would change because those in power would feel their position threatened and need to up to anty.

my rant for the day :D

Drugs has a very long history in this country,,I saw one doc where Cocaine,,the main drug putting african american males in jail was once given to them as dock workers to get the work done fast,,,they were not counting on the addiction,,nor this rumor that it makes them horny and therefore will run out raping white women(now this is what the doc said),,so all of a sudden its illegal for blacks to have cocaine meanwhile the rest of the country was putting it in soda water,,,,it went down hill from there.


same thing for asians and opium.... horny+ attack white women during the Railroad construction.

This is typical for a drug user to blame a dealer for their own problems. Drug users are to blame for their use of drugs and noone else. If there were no dealers the user would find some way to use some kind of drug to get the high they so badly want. Laziness causes drug users to keep using to fight the pain inside them instead of getting off the drug and deal with their pain in a more constructive way. Many people cant get a real job for various reasons color being one of them so they make money however they can to support their families. I would not call that dumb.

no, but the dumb ones don' look for any other option... other than to sell narcotics. Some people live for that and like that image... educate yourself. okay, so education for black/hispanics primarily suck.... learn a trade, get involved.... it's not as difficult as it seems. too many people pull that race card before they think about bettering themselves.

before any of you say... wait wait, you're not...whatever the race is. I'm not. but I understand nonetheless that it is a WHITE world still (i'm irish and mexican and my husband is straight born in mexico) and as much as i would hate to admit it, my attorney advised us to have as MANY WHITE people as possible appear in court on his sentencing date... not his family or hispanic community. It sucks, but this is how this country still is.... and I believe that every individual must accept that and push past that and educate himself before accepting the cards that have been dealt for him and taking whatever 'opportunity' arises.

just my .02

it's not as difficult as it seems. too many people pull that race card before they think about bettering themselves.

.... and I believe that every individual must accept that and push past that and educate himself before accepting the cards that have been dealt for him and taking whatever 'opportunity' arises.

this is typical. the average American (whatever their race) doesn't understand RACISM and how it works so there's this prevailing notion that "it's easy" and the oppressed should just "deal with it." the old "boot strap" theory. here's the deal... there are STRUCTURAL inequalities based on race in EVERY institution in this country. when you have STRUCTURAL issues, a band-aid won't do. Education is a band-aid. Jobs are band-aids. This country breeds an individualistic mentality so it's difficult to see one's destiny linked to the group's destiny. the thinking is "i got mine (or so and so got there's), now you gotta get yours." as long as people to continue to think this way, the problems We see will never go away; they'll probably get worse.

sorry, it's not that easy. nor is it that simple.

so then what is your solution???? KNOW that we have racism, and justify that fact to be drug dealers? Justify your reasons for living in poverty? My husband, liike i said, straight born in mexico with 7 bros and sisters... lived in a one bedroom apartment with his parents, who busted their ass working. He did the stereotypical thing.... he was in a gang etc.... did his prison time etc.... but finally decided when he was a bit older.... that it was enough. and busted his ass to get out of it and he found a way to succeed.

there IS possibility. It might be a little bit harder in some places rather than others. If you're in a bad area.... move. it's like trailer parks in tornado land. um.... if the same thing keeps happening... let go and move. and again... if u think, she doesn't know what she's talking about... my husband is being deported soon and i'm gonna have to move to a country in poverty. There is rich and there is poor. I;ve decided that we are no gonna be poor and we'll figure something out, even if i don't speak the language and culture. there is racism there too.... and i'll have to deal with that.

Being black isn't the only racism in this country. Nor are we the only country that is racist. It's crazy to think that after all the progress we've made with women's right and civil rights.... it's only been about 45-50 years. most of the people that lived through that racist time and believed that crap are sitting in Congress. You can't expect a whirlwind turnaround in one lifetime. It's gonna take us generations to weed this out.... and we've got to figure this whole immigration/hispanic thing out, arab thing, asian explosion, black poverty, white dominance.... and it will start with education and the next presidential election.

so then what is your solution???? KNOW that we have racism, and justify that fact to be drug dealers? Justify your reasons for living in poverty?

you don't want to know my solution... :rolleyes:

but to address your question, i'm not trying to justify or excuse drug dealers or anybody else who preys on our communities, but i UNDERSTAND it. listen, We live in a capitalist society, so there will ALWAYS be an "acceptable" level of poverty. that's how capitalism works. and when you have poverty, there will be crime. bottom line. so if We can't end poverty, and therefore can't put an end to crime, then the SYSTEM must be changed to one that meets the needs of the people so that crime isn't necessary (most crimes are economic in nature). one solution is SOCIALISM.

this whole idea that if you live in a poor neighborhood, just move, is again individualistic. what about every body else in that community? i guess they have to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. this "i got mine, you get yours" mentality is what's got this society f*cked up now.

*you don't want to know my solution... :rolleyes:

but to address your question, i'm not trying to justify or excuse drug dealers or anybody else who preys on our communities, but i UNDERSTAND it. listen, We live in a capitalist society, so there will ALWAYS be an "acceptable" level of poverty. that's how capitalism works. and when you have poverty, there will be crime. bottom line. so if We can't end poverty, and therefore can't put an end to crime, then the SYSTEM must be changed to one that meets the needs of the people so that crime isn't necessary (most crimes are economic in nature). one solution is SOCIALISM.

this whole idea that if you live in a poor neighborhood, just move, is again individualistic. what about every body else in that community? i guess they have to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. this "i got mine, you get yours" mentality is what's got this society f*cked up now.

WAIT... i'm not arguing with u there. we are in a capitalist society... (shit, next we'll be communist) and with this whole immigration crap going on... our society NEEDS that 'level' of poverty to thrive. I'm not arguing at ALL. and just the same, there is no guarantee that the SYSTEM will change that dramatically in our lifetime. So... We know that we need a this separation to make our society funcion and thrive... and we also know that the these changes in women's rights and civil rights are fairly new to our communities. you cant change a country's racist beliefs and core in 40 years. It is NOT possible as much as both u and i wish it would happen. So, if the result is "this is the way it is, thus this is how we live".. and society can't change (at least not in the near future), why isn't taking personal responsibility and individual choice the best option?

Also, as much as we should be a socialist society, we won't be... for that reason. we are way too selfish. We want all these things for our society, but we don't want to pay for the betterment of our society. We just need to wait until all the babyboomers die out and we can fill their congressional seats. In the meantime, I'm done with this country and I'm moving to Mexico.

people, this is the u.s. We're talking about. you CANNOT talk about class without talking about race. period. the two are inextricably linked in this country. ask any sociology professor. to think that the disparities in drug sentencing boil down to differences in class is really naive.

i could go on and on disputing some of the things i've read here, but i won't. most people, white people in particular, do not (and may not ever) understand racism and white privilege and how it permeates EVERY institution in this country, from the courthouse to the schoolhouse. it's like the fish in the fishbowl who doesn't know what it means to be without water because its all around him every day, all day. RACISM is real, y'all. You can live in the dark if you want to, and laugh at what might seem like "conspiracy" theories, but white privilege is real.

And for the record, education doesn't level the playing field. Access to POWER levels the playing field. Education makes it possible for a few to get out of the ghetto and make a decent living, but it doesn't change the reality for the masses. If every Black and Latino child graduated from Harvard, you better believe the "rules" would change because those in power would feel their position threatened and need to up to anty.

my rant for the day :D
I forgot all about this thread,,,but when I saw the last installment of American Gangster with Rayful Edmonds,,man that hit home so hard!
Here it is Bush wont even let DC residents VOTE inthe Union but yet he takes their tax dollars and 10% of them are black male felons.Now u tell me ,,,so many people dont know government history or how this whole system is set up so its easy to turn a blind eye and say we always crying foul because we black,,,how about if its true:rolleyes:

O and I suggest getting to know FAMM,,,read about the laws and how they go against race on their web page,,if you really want to be educated!

Famm????

I forgot all about this thread,,,but when I saw the last installment of American Gangster with Rayful Edmonds,,man that hit home so hard!
Here it is Bush wont even let DC residents VOTE inthe Union but yet he takes their tax dollars and 10% of them are black male felons.Now u tell me ,,,so many people dont know government history or how this whole system is set up so its easy to turn a blind eye and say we always crying foul because we black,,,how about if its true:rolleyes:

1) Why do you put so many commas in your post? They're very hard to read. It looks like you mean to hit the space bar (spaces, albeit perhaps in fewer quantity, would be appropriate in the stead of most of your repeated commas), but missed?

2) GWB doesn't have anything to say about D.C. voting. The Constitution was amended (23rd) in 1961 to allow D.C. residents to vote for the President. D.C. has never had a vote in the House or the Senate; that state of affairs predates GWB by a couple hundred years, and predates Washington, D.C. being a black enclave by decades.

Famm????

Families Against Mandatory Minimums.

one solution is SOCIALISM.

Yeah, great idea, has worked so well every other time it's been tried (all those Miami residents hopping into boats bound for the worker's paradise in Cuba, or the West Berliners trying desperately to get through the Berlin Wall to the promise of a socialist utopia in East Germany... Or, no, wait, that's not quite how it was, was it?) Even Chavez can't keep food in stores or his people from waiting in line 3+ hours for staples.

Socialism is removing the incentive for those who can, because the fruit of their labors is ripped from their hands and handed out to those who won't do for themselves. Sounds like a pretty good deal if you're lazy or incompetent, but a pretty raw one if you're able and industrious. So, for the latter, what, then, is the point? And thus you have the collapse of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, France moving desperately away from its socialism platforms, even China maintaining uber-capitalist Hong Kong as-is, while moving its own structures to be more and more capitalist...

Socialism might be an answer, but choosing it means you fail the test.

Yeah, great idea, has worked so well every other time it's been tried (all those Miami residents hopping into boats bound for the worker's paradise in Cuba, or the West Berliners trying desperately to get through the Berlin Wall to the promise of a socialist utopia in East Germany... Or, no, wait, that's not quite how it was, was it?) Even Chavez can't keep food in stores or his people from waiting in line 3+ hours for staples.

Socialism is removing the incentive for those who can, because the fruit of their labors is ripped from their hands and handed out to those who won't do for themselves. Sounds like a pretty good deal if you're lazy or incompetent, but a pretty raw one if you're able and industrious. So, for the latter, what, then, is the point? And thus you have the collapse of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, France moving desperately away from its socialism platforms, even China maintaining uber-capitalist Hong Kong as-is, while moving its own structures to be more and more capitalist...

Socialism might be an answer, but choosing it means you fail the test.

to be fair, why not list all the ills of CAPITALISM? No system is perfect. Nothing man-made ever is, but if you put socialism and capitalism side by side (objectively), you'll find the people better served in a socialist economy, and isn't that what a society should be about... not corporate greed and government corruption at the expense of the people.

as far as Cuba goes, or the U.S. for that matter, there will be dissenters. it is rare to have 100% of the people stand behind their government 100% of the time. so what's your point?

Here is one of the easiest comparisons between Socialism and Capitalism by Alex Deanne of the UK.

"Capitalism is the world’s dominant economic system. Within it, the means of production and distribution are owned by individuals: private ownership and free enterprise are believed to lead to more efficiency, lower prices, better products and rising prosperity. Socialism advocates the ownership and control of the means of production and industry by the community as a whole: the community is believed to be both more just and more efficient through central planning. In Marxist theory Socialism represents the stage following capitalism in a state transforming to communism; for many, however, it is a goal in itself."

How funny is that though? Karl Marx and his creation of socialism was the basis for Hilter's ideas of communism and racial extermination. Even further than that, countries that actually put socialism in action resulted in the failure of theie government/regime. (i.e. Lenin/Stalin) As much as we "like" the idea of socialism, it was best said by Ludwig von Mises, the advocate of socialism"All rational action is in the first place individual action. Only the individual thinks. Only the individual reasons. Only the individual acts."

Individual choice, while it has created the widening gap between rich and poor, is essentially less evil than the Socialist idea of the "greater good." If we were in a society governed for the greater good , punishments of individual choice/crime would be far harsher than what they are today.

How funny is that though? Karl Marx and his creation of socialism was the basis for Hilter's ideas of communism and racial extermination.

huh? you must be trying to get some capitalist sympathizers by bringing up Hitler. Hitler had some very warped ideas about society, but to suggest socialism is the root of all evil as a result is faulty logic.

Even further than that, countries that actually put socialism in action resulted in the failure of theie government/regime. (i.e. Lenin/Stalin).

just because the U.S. government hasn't fallen YET, doesn't mean it won't. No government or regime or dynasty (past, present or future) has "ruled" or will "rule" indefinitely. they all fall eventually. history shows us this, and i'm talking thousands of years BEFORE the Berlin Wall fell or the collapse of the USSR.

If we were in a society governed for the greater good , punishments of individual choice/crime would be far harsher than what they are today.

but it's okay to profit from the imprisonment of other people? :rolleyes:

:) Just keep it friendly so this thread can stay open.

to be fair, why not list all the ills of CAPITALISM?

That it requires people to do for themselves? I don't consider that an "ill."


if you put socialism and capitalism side by side (objectively), you'll find the people better served in a socialist economy

Really?! Then why has there never been a socialist system that worked? There are no pure socialist states in the world, and the ones that attempt to come close (Cuba, Venezuela, China) have standards of living we in the U.S. would find appalling, serious structural issues, and/or are moving towards capitalism. Famous quote, don't have the source handy: "capitalism is the worst economic system imaginable, except for all of the others."

Take a look at France's socialist democracy; ridiculously high unemployment (10% overall, 25% among the youth, almost 50% in some racial demographics), a government frantically trying to rescind generous benefits packages it can't afford (due in part to a low-and-shrinking GDP -- lack of incentive to produce), huge racism problems, huge poverty problems, a welfare state system everyone (read The Economist) expects to either not exist, or collapse, within 50 years, strikes paralyzing the city, and a labor system that lets everyone take off on holiday for the same /month/, never mind that as a result, 17,000 people died in a heat wave with no one around to care for them. Yeah, sign me up for that! (Why do you think France just overwhelmingly elected a conservative running on a reform platform, after years of socialist/leftist rule? It isn't working and needs to be changed!

When you take from those who produce, you eliminate the incentives to produce. When you give to those who don't produce, you eliminate the incentives to produce.

Have you ever read Wealth of Nations? Das Kapital? What's the baseline for discussion here?

huh? you must be trying to get some capitalist sympathizers by bringing up Hitler. Hitler had some very warped ideas about society, but to suggest socialism is the root of all evil as a result is faulty logic.

Be nice please..... was it or was it not historically accurate that Karl Marx ideas for socialism and control of individual action for the greater good led to communism and complete control of the government???? personally, i'd rather take my chances with free will and capitalism.

just because the U.S. government hasn't fallen YET, doesn't mean it won't. No government or regime or dynasty (past, present or future) has "ruled" or will "rule" indefinitely. they all fall eventually. history shows us this, and i'm talking thousands of years BEFORE the Berlin Wall fell or the collapse of the USSR.

but it's okay to profit from the imprisonment of other people? :rolleyes:

as to what? allowing a government to decide your will for you? at least in a capitalist society, we are still given trial among our peers, rather persecuted in a no win situation with our government.

Even if our country is run by corporations, which i agree, sucks.....

but it's alot better than giving our government more control that what it already has.

HOWEVER.... going back to our original discussion on racism and drugs..... I think by creating a socialist society, you put everyone on the same playing field instead of allowing those who want to succeed. Strasse did say it best, you put a doctor on the same level as a drug dealer.... hehe.. with slight income difference. I wouldn't think that would be fair, nor would i want those options for my children. I'm assuming neither would you. I would want them to excel and succeed and attain whatever goal they wish.... not have that choice premade for them by our government.

ridiculously high unemployment... huge racism problems, huge poverty problems, a welfare state system (and social security system) everyone expects to either not exist, or collapse, within 50 years, strikes paralyzing the city...

hmmm... sounds like you're talking about the U.S. here :rolleyes:

this thread has gotten way off topic... We'll have to agree to disagree :thumbsup:

at least in a capitalist society, we are still given trial among our peers, rather persecuted in a no win situation with our government.

you're joking right? the disproportionate number of Black men in U.S. prisons and the sentences THEY receive compared to their white peers is evidence enough that We are not given a trial by a jury of our peers. Ask anybody in any inner city in America, and they'll tell there is a no win situation when it comes to the so-called justice system in this country!

I can only loosely respond to this. It's all part of the machine. The machine is to produce a rich and powerful nation. How was this nation built? And who built it? And why? The sad thing is, the water has been tainted for hundreds of years. I hate some of things that are being posted. The people that are calling drug dealers dumb, it's much deeper than that. . And if giving the chance to drop the realness of the whole set up, all these political terms will be flushed down the toilet. The ones that don't see it as a race issue, they never will. It's too much for them to understand. It's not that cut and dry. The smart ones do see the set up. And they choose to stay clear of it. But being of color, you are bound to get caught up in some unjustice. Because, "The best" isn't for us. The sad thing is the set up was geared towards blacks. For them to fail. I know it and everyone else does too. So to save everyone the heartache, Yes, the war on drugs is a racial one. The real BIG drug dealers and abusers are called politicans. No one is "blaming", just stating faces. It doesn't start on the streets, but that's were it will end. If education is the key, why is it, the best education is offered in non-black neighborhoods. Why is it, I have to fight tooth and nail for my son to have equal education? So he won't fail through the cracks of society. He is American. I work. And I make over the state's family annual income. It's all a system. I'm not a drug addict. My father and mother weren't either. But to others that's all they see when they see a black face. If you hear some FAQ I get, it would make your head spin. To have someone assume something about you because of your race. If you ever heard having the complexion for the protection, you best to believe it!! The assignment for the new year is for everyone to watch The Wire, Season 1-4. Then come back and tell me what you think:cool:

hmmm... sounds like you're talking about the U.S. here :rolleyes:

this thread has gotten way off topic... We'll have to agree to disagree :thumbsup:

American unemployment is around 4%, and last I checked we weren't rioting nor had the entire country's public transportation shut down. And the collapse of social security is deplorable, but it's one program; France is looking at all of it's social largess going away. The French turn violent when the government tries to do something as "simple" as make it easier to fire a young employee within the first two years ("at will"), in the event that person doesn't work out. Imagine what's going to happen there when the government can't guarantee a roof or food or what passes for health care...

1) Why do you put so many commas in your post? They're very hard to read. It looks like you mean to hit the space bar (spaces, albeit perhaps in fewer quantity, would be appropriate in the stead of most of your repeated commas), but missed?

2) GWB doesn't have anything to say about D.C. voting. The Constitution was amended (23rd) in 1961 to allow D.C. residents to vote for the President. D.C. has never had a vote in the House or the Senate; that state of affairs predates GWB by a couple hundred years, and predates Washington, D.C. being a black enclave by decades.

1)I use commas to break up my thoughts,,,thats my style! Sorry!

2) I will go back to the tapes because I could have sworn they said that Bush vetoed some thing to do with them getting a vote because it would mean one more Democratic vote,,,( house/senate?),, I did not hear which one ,,,I am not a expert but I do want to know exactly what they meant in that episode,,thanks!

My question is,,if there is no race attached to the drug war,,then why are they spending all these tax payers dollars amending the crack laws because it was found racially biased???

to appease..... and take the focus off our failure of a war.

you're joking right? the disproportionate number of Black men in U.S. prisons and the sentences THEY receive compared to their white peers is evidence enough that We are not given a trial by a jury of our peers. Ask anybody in any inner city in America, and they'll tell there is a no win situation when it comes to the so-called justice system in this country!

so we've come full circle to our original discussion. black prejuidice in our system. which also returns us to solutions to the problem.

apparently, we will have to agree to disagree.

1)I use commas to break up my thoughts,,,thats my style! Sorry!

You're supposed to. But only one comma. Your way is distracting from your message, because it's so clearly not English grammar. Up to you, of course. Me, I'd want my message heard and readily understood.

You're supposed to. But only one comma. Your way is distracting from your message, because it's so clearly not English grammar. Up to you, of course. Me, I'd want my message heard and readily understood.I know I understand her;) It's the way she speaks. Instead of using periods like so....She uses comas:rolleyes: Either way, anyone who wants to understand Babi will....,,,,

I know I understand her;) It's the way she speaks. Instead of using periods like so....She uses comas

The ellipsis is valid punctuation. Repeating commas is not. The former doesn't take away from the message. The latter makes the message appear semi-literate at best. Your mileage may, of course, vary.

The ellipsis is valid punctuation. Repeating commas is not. The former doesn't take away from the message. The latter makes the message appear semi-literate at best. Your mileage may, of course, vary.

you apparently have nothing else to do... i've ready countless posts with misspellings, bad grammar, incorrect punctuation... the list goes on. but who really cares? this is a support site, a place where people should be able to let their guard down and just be themselves. this isn't English 101! get over it and move on :cool:

you apparently have nothing else to do...

Not at the moment, no, we're in court waiting on a judge to return from chambers with a ruling on a motion.

but who really cares?

Ah, exactly the kind of mentality we've been talking about! I can see why you're for socialism! :)

The ellipsis is valid punctuation. Repeating commas is not. The former doesn't take away from the message. The latter makes the message appear semi-literate at best. Your mileage may, of course, vary.
Lemme splain sumthin about Babi,,,Babi got an MBA from UCLA and she kno how to write and speak very good pigeon english because no American speaks English,,, they only try.
I also speak and write very good Ebonics, prison lingo, slang, swhalili, Yoruba , Spanglish and some Amharic.
I admit I am not a typists nor do I spell check on a message board:rolleyes:
I have YET to have any person of intelligence not understand what I am saying based on words nor commas on PTO,,you are the first! And I talk on here all day every day.
Having said that,,,How come they spent so much money repealing the Crack Laws if the Drug War was not found racially biased?
Yeah thats where I left off.:D

to appease..... and take the focus off our failure of a war.
Noooo baby girl ,,FAMM has been on this for the last 20 plus years ,,when crack first hit the streets during the Reagan Oliver North Years (the biggest un prosecuted drug dealer around) in the 80's. When Baby Bush was running around tooting cocaine up his nose!

Lemme splain sumthin about Babi,,,Babi got an MBA from UCLA and she kno how to write and speak very good pigeon english because no American speaks English,,, they only try.

An MBA is impressive -- who'd you have for the Leadership Foundations intro? I mean, it's no LL.M., but I suppose everyone has to start somewhere! :) As for English -- it's an evolving language. Always has been. Half the words in the Queen's English are French or Norse or Germanic in origin, depending on who had conquered the isle(s) at the time.

I admit I am not a typists nor do I spell check on a message board

I don't spell check, nor am I a typist (though I suppose through my various degree programs, the Bar and other licensing exams, and a law practice, I've become pretty proficient just by way of sheer exposure).

I have YET to have any person of intelligence not understand what I am saying based on words nor commas on PTO,,you are the first!

I didn't say I didn't understand what you were saying, only that it was more difficult, and that it appears semi-literate.


Having said that,,,How come they spent so much money repealing the Crack Laws if the Drug War was not found racially biased?

No one's repealing "the Crack Laws." Dealing, possessing, using the stuff is still illegal. They're modifying the sentences imposed for those crimes to eliminate the disparity.

Regardless, I stand by my original position -- the drug war, racially biased or not, is a non-issue if you simply don't deal or use drugs, crack or otherwise.

I can only loosely respond to this. It's all part of the machine. The machine is to produce a rich and powerful nation. How was this nation built? And who built it? And why? The sad thing is, the water has been tainted for hundreds of years. I hate some of things that are being posted. The people that are calling drug dealers dumb, it's much deeper than that. . And if giving the chance to drop the realness of the whole set up, all these political terms will be flushed down the toilet. The ones that don't see it as a race issue, they never will. It's too much for them to understand. It's not that cut and dry. The smart ones do see the set up. And they choose to stay clear of it. But being of color, you are bound to get caught up in some unjustice. Because, "The best" isn't for us. The sad thing is the set up was geared towards blacks. For them to fail. I know it and everyone else does too. So to save everyone the heartache, Yes, the war on drugs is a racial one. The real BIG drug dealers and abusers are called politicans. No one is "blaming", just stating faces. It doesn't start on the streets, but that's were it will end. If education is the key, why is it, the best education is offered in non-black neighborhoods. Why is it, I have to fight tooth and nail for my son to have equal education? So he won't fail through the cracks of society. He is American. I work. And I make over the state's family annual income. It's all a system. I'm not a drug addict. My father and mother weren't either. But to others that's all they see when they see a black face. If you hear some FAQ I get, it would make your head spin. To have someone assume something about you because of your race. If you ever heard having the complexion for the protection, you best to believe it!! The assignment for the new year is for everyone to watch The Wire, Season 1-4. Then come back and tell me what you think:cool:


Why also then is everything quoted against blacks alone? why not any other race?? There is discrimination, and we all see that and understand it. the point that i was getting to, is are we just going to accept that this is the way it is, and live it and justify it? or should we take individual responsibility, KNOWING that we live in a F*cked up system, and change ourselves?

I don't think we will agree without crossing bounds, and that is not a conversation that i would like to get into further. I'm glad I did get the opportunity to hear your viewpoints though! :D

hmmm...very interesting...aren't the drug dealers who are in jail there because they got caught dealing drugs....white or black? My bf is in jail for a car accident resulting in a death...hmmm so he is white was on drugs bought them from a poor neighborhood....this all seems too clear to me.

Why also then is everything quoted against blacks alone? why not any other race?? There is discrimination, and we all see that and understand it. the point that i was getting to, is are we just going to accept that this is the way it is, and live it and justify it? or should we take individual responsibility, KNOWING that we live in a F*cked up system, and change ourselves?

I don't think we will agree without crossing bounds, and that is not a conversation that i would like to get into further. I'm glad I did get the opportunity to hear your viewpoints though! :DOk, I'm gonna give you my point of view. I'm not making this racial, but it is what it is :shrug: Your love and my love both are released the same day. They both have on a white dress shirt and and dress slacks. They go to a job interview. 9 out of 10, my love will be asked if has been arrested, where as yours, they will handle that when they get to it:D Even if they do ask your love one the same question, he is most likely to get the job before my love. Why is that?? If you think I'm talking just to be talking, type these key words in a search engine, Black,ex-felon,employment. And you will have hundreds of pages pop up that say the same thing. From none-black professors. I thought the solution would be to just stay out of trouble until I read this
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007/12/05/2007-12-05_man_who_picks_up_wallet_to_help_feels_di-3.html << Just what we needed another reason to profile:shrug:
Then I thought about how the police appoarched my mom in the train station. She is 57 year old hard working woman, on her way to work everyday. She was asked to open her pocketbook. I'm like ok this is another terrorist operation. But each and ever time I see this search and proceedure, it of a black woman. And it's happen more than once. I'm not trying to "make" this racial. It is what it is. You damned if you do and your damned if you don't. Like i've said, you have to have the complexion for the protection. And to answer your first question, the best way I can. The reason is, the majority of the other races can go back to their home land, since the USA is made up of so many different races. Everything is Black and White in the US. As much as others don't think so, it is. This is my last post on this thread. PTO isn't ready to hear the truth. And I don't like pussy footing around things. Especially when it comes down to my race. And since the power that be will most likely lean more to your side, I'm bowing out gracefully:D

An MBA is impressive -- who'd you have for the Leadership Foundations intro? I mean, it's no LL.M., but I suppose everyone has to start somewhere! :) As for English -- it's an evolving language. Always has been. Half the words in the Queen's English are French or Norse or Germanic in origin, depending on who had conquered the isle(s) at the time.



I don't spell check, nor am I a typist (though I suppose through my various degree programs, the Bar and other licensing exams, and a law practice, I've become pretty proficient just by way of sheer exposure).



I didn't say I didn't understand what you were saying, only that it was more difficult, and that it appears semi-literate.




No one's repealing "the Crack Laws." Dealing, possessing, using the stuff is still illegal. They're modifying the sentences imposed for those crimes to eliminate the disparity.

Regardless, I stand by my original position -- the drug war, racially biased or not, is a non-issue if you simply don't deal or use drugs, crack or otherwise.
Semi literate?? Are you black calling me a kettle?
Because how come you don't comprehend that the sentencing laws were REPEALED ( look up the meaning,,a change by legislative act-Umm it was up for legislative Vote first and it passed) because of a disparity of RACE??
Or do you think they are just doing it to take our minds off of Saddam too?
Don't deal drugs buhahaha,,did you ever take an Economics Class?
And while you are at it can you tell your government that?
Oh, I forgot you are the one who did not think Lindsey Lohan blamed her crimes on a Black kid either. So maybe those who bring drugs in on ships should go free and have TV shows like Oliver North while the street level dealers drain our tax dollars in prison.
BTW ( that means by the way) Dr Osborne was my Mentor and he thought my English was GREAT!:)
You must be a mighty fine lawyer to find time to TRY and spar with me on a non-ISSUE like ,,,How I type and speak on a prison web site,,mighty fine!:rolleyes:

PS I got more money in my bank account without my degree do you want to compare?

Semi literate??

That's what I said, and what I meant, yes. If I look at a writing and it's covered in non-standard and grammatically incorrect punctuation, I'm automatically going to think less of the person who penned it.

Because how come you don't comprehend that the sentencing laws were REPEALED ( look up the meaning,,a change by legislative act-Umm it was up for legislative Vote first and it passed) because of a disparity of RACE??

Thanks, I know the definition of 'repealed.' (Though my dictionary has it as "abrogation of an existing law by legislative act," Black's Law Dictionary 2e Pocket Edition, p602. (All I have with me at the moment, I'm at a CLE conference today.) Abrogate is defined, somewhat circularly, as "to abolish by formal or authoritative action; to annul or repeal." Id., 2.

Again, no crack laws have been totally abolished. There are still laws on the books against selling and possessing crack. You'll still go to prison for a felony conviction. The penalties were reduced, not eliminated. A repeal would have eliminated them.

Or do you think they are just doing it to take our minds off of Saddam too?

Um, what?! Saddam's dead. Been dead for a while. No one's talking about Saddam anymore.

Don't deal drugs buhahaha,,did you ever take an Economics Class?

Several. (I also have an MBA; I'm a Trojan, though.)

And while you are at it can you tell your government that?

Ah, you're one of those.


Dr Osborne was my Mentor and he thought my English was GREAT!:)

Ah, interesting. I'm assuming you're black? Did you seek out Osborne (I'm assuming you mean Al Osborne), or was it random selection? If the former, why? Just feel more comfortable with those of your own race?


You must be a mighty fine lawyer to find time

I think I'm a pretty decent lawyer, but that's not why I'm here idly chatting. I'm bored. Burned too much of yesterday at court, and today through Friday I'm listening to CLE presentations while on my laptop. Same way I got through law school. I have to multitask, lest I get bored. PTO, at this level of conversation, doesn't take full concentration, and neither does the presentation. (Neither did torts. :)

PS I got more money in my bank account without my degree do you want to compare?

Bank account? Singular? A comparison might be fun, but it'll take me a while to pull together all the accounts, calculate the equity in my home, etc., and the exact figure will fluctuate based on the market (loose stocks and several mutual and hedge funds), so best to crunch the numbers after 4:00 EST if we're going to do it. (Even still, it won't be wholly accurate; two of my cars would need to be re-appraised, as they're appreciating in value, according to Cars of Particular Interest. But I can guesstimate.)

Several. (I also have an MBA; I'm a Trojan, though.)

Ah, interesting. I'm assuming you're black? Did you seek out Osborne (I'm assuming you mean Al Osborne), or was it random selection? If the former, why? Just feel more comfortable with those of your own race?
I love Al ,,He gave me ALL A's:D



I think I'm a pretty decent lawyer, but that's not why I'm here idly
Pleeze you dont have clients
Just PM me your DNB # and stop PIPE dreaming!:D

Your love and my love both are released the same day. They both have on a white dress shirt and and dress slacks. They go to a job interview. 9 out of 10, my love will be asked if has been arrested, where as yours, they will handle that when they get to it:D
please.... before u assume that i am married to a white man... my husband is straight cholo... been there, done that. he is tatttooed on his face, head, chest,neck, back, arms, hands, legs, EVERYWHERE. He is mexican. and with an aggravated felony, is being deported. If you seriously want to talk discrimination.... at least yours is acknowledged an AMERICAN. mine wouldn't be... even if he was legal.

with all respect...if u want to talk "assumptions"... please do not assume. We're both in the same boat whether u acknowledge it or not.

Gemini...yeehaw, mama! See, now we all know right where your button is...

Babi...why you play with such?

I know BOTH of you are above all this, either of you have more class in your little pinky....

Enough of the back and forth about grammar. It's ridiculous and childish. The original poster had a question and it wasn't about how smart each member thought the others were or how well they typed, spelled or speak.
KEEP IT CIVIL...you've already had a warning and you chose to ignore it. The next step will be administrative action

I am so happy today!
Every article I read ,,,Justicies and lawyers alike admitted the war on drugs (sentencing) was Racist!
This is only a small step but opening those gates will give many BLACK men a second chance.
Its only the beginning.