I got screwed on my case, I got two felonies for two stupid incidents of petty vandalism, because I had a state paid lawyer, I didn't even get a plea bargain.

I'm thinking about skipping on my probation and moving to Europe, anyone ever done this? Will they actively pursue people for violating probation, if they are in another Country?

Well, if you skip out to Europe, I hope you'll mend your ways and not do stuff to get in trouble over there. They probably wouldn't pursue you, but that's a mighty radical move just to avoid doing your probation here for something you did do wrong. I remember your first post--------that's not just stupid petty vandalism like breaking somebody's window or toilet papering their house. What you did was very disrespectful of people's loved ones in harming their graves. How would you feel if it had been your loved ones-------your mom, sister, brother, your homie, your grandparents? But at any rate, stick it out and do your probation. Probation is a slap on the wrist.

Have you done your time already? Leaving this country to just get out of probation you could be losing more than you plan to. Have you checked out the work laws where you are going? They are not real big on Americans coming into their counties to work. Do you have a Passport? You might not be able to get one and if you have one they may stop you anyway. You might think about just hanging tough and putting all this behind you. Love Barb

Stick around and do your probation. If you leave and get caught, the penatly will be much worse.

I understand your disillusionment. But, stick around and help us fight. There are many things that need fixing in our criminal justice system. Seems to me you need to redirect some of your abilities into making a change. Hope you reconsider.

Do your probation!

Originally posted by BSS
Have you checked out the work laws where you are going? They are not real big on Americans coming into their counties to work.

This is going to be a little bit off topic, but I have to answer !! I wonder where you found this Barb ??? I will speak for France, as I can't speak for all european countries !!

In France, like in most countries in the world, you must be a citizen, a resident or a political refugee to get a regular job. It has NOTHING to do with your citizenship !!! Unless that American can't apply for a political refugee status. Citizens from all over the world are regularly working in France regardless of their original citizenship.

As for the work laws, I'm sorry to tell you they are far better in France than in the US. Once you got a job, you keep it, it's very hard to fire an employee, unless the company goes to bankruptcy of course. Being sick, even long disease, is in NO WAY a case to fire someone. When you have a job in France, you automatically have the Social Security, FREE unlimited medical care covering everything from a flu to a heart surgery, unlimited FREE medication, you work 35 hours a week full time, you get a MINIMUM of 5 weeks paid holidays a year, and when you retire, you get a pension which is 75% of your last salary.

Now Fragem, I would honestly encourage you to do your probation. If you come to Europe, you must think that once your passport is expired, you couldn't get another one, since you'll have to apply for a new one in a US embassy, and moreover, coming to Europe, means you won't get the possibility to go back to the US ever. I think it's not worth it.

Phil

Fragem, France and or Germany is the last places I would be looking at! The relationship with the USA is at a all time low these days! In general, only the Americans that spend money or are self supporting are tolerated.

Unless you have some key marketable skills, you could very well end up "homeless" and an unwanted American!

I have been searching the web for the possiblity of becoming an "expat" (living in another country) but I will be self supporting and that's the key and France isn't on my present list of possibles!

All of us that has dealt with the DOC system has wanted to "RUN", it's a natural desire to excape! But, unless you have everything in order, it's best to hang on for the ride.

Wow, Phil!
I found what you had to say really interesting.
I didn't know all that about France and its immigration system. I am off the original topic here, but wanted you to know that I think your social programs and employment standards are way higher than in in other countries.
Thanks for the info :)
Shan *brushing up on her parlez vous francais*;)

i want to move to france now! :-)

Ditto. France sounds way better than here. 75% of your salary for retirement! Wow!

Deb

Lol, all the people who want to run to France- can you say TAXES? Europeans pay a ton for those socialist programs.

Anyway,maybe Fragem is just going through a normal readjustment in his view of America. We are sold such a bill of goods about democracy and reasonable government that it's like a slap the first time you actually get a look at the real 'justice' system outside of civics class. I amnot quite the flag waver I used to be either but I'm still am not sure there is anyplace else to go that is much better.

I guess moving to Europe won't help very much. When you have a resident permit for any European country, which is not too difficult to get for an American, you can live and work here without problem. At least German employers never ask for a criminal background check, so even a felony conviction has no negative effect on getting a job. The problem is that the US police will find you no matter where you are and make a request to the government to send you back to the US. All European countries will just put you on an airplane and send you back to the USA. So all you win with that move is an additional charge, or you're send to prison because of probation violation.

Sascha

Being as I live in a country that many consider Socialist, I must say that it is very much worth it to pay slightly higher taxes and enjoy those socialist benefits further down the road when you truly need them. Affordable medical care, retirement income, humane prisons and affordable housing programs should not be luxuries.
Every human being deserves these basic rights, regardless of where they reside.
Leaving your country, though, to avoid prosecution, is something not even worth considering. Deal with the problem and then if still wanting to immigrate, make plans then.

Fragem,

I am not sure I would do this and I have been debating for awhile as to post this.

But, here goes, several years ago I read an article about a man who renounced his U.S. citizenship legally, and retained his - what we call state residency as his citizenship. He did it in Federal court I believe, and it was one heck of a fight. But, he won.

It was based in part or in whole, I don't remember on the pre-civil war theory that each state was in part a separate nation that banded together only for the common defence and trade matters. The Federal Govt (as it should be) was very, very weak and had almost no authority.

I can't tell you any more about the article or where I found it, or if there has been any action like this since.

If you happen to be Native American, I don't know, but several of the (my Innuit friend says clans) tribes, specifically the Iroquis (Spelling) do not recognize the U.S. Government as a lawful Government. They have their own capital, issue their own passports and last I heard their soverignty (again spelling) was recognized by Great Britain.

Deb, please, correct me if I am wrong, but fragem if you are native, that may be the way to go.

But, keep in mind, that there are severe consequences, if you do either one of these things or leave the country.

On what I spoke of I would do some research, then approach an Attorney, do it right.

But, really, the best route is to buck up - do your probation - and get on with life.

Patti

I have a friend whose dad fled to Sweden in the 70's. He's been there ever since, married a Swede, had a couple of kids, and leds a very good life as a surgeon and even volunteers for Doctors Without Borders. My friend travels to Sweden to see him every year. She also loves it there and tells me they have the world's best maternity leave. You get 96 weeks leave and a year of that is at 80% of salary. UNBELIEVABLE. We get 6 weeks here.

Well since this post I did 5 months in jail for a probation violation, I did not try to run, some other thing got me convicted. I'm still thinking about moving out of country

Fragem,

Welcome back, I don't blame you for thinking about leaving.

My son, the only one of my three children left in this country is preparing to move back to Germany and renounce his U.S. Citizenship. Though for much different reasons than you. With all this talk of a new military draft being floated to prepare the public for it, he has stated he will not be a part of defending a nation that put his mother in prison.

I say this, I am fully prepared to help him, and I am fully aware of the possible consequenses to me.

I may face prison again. I may lose my freedom again, but I WILL NOT allow the government of this nation to place my children in harms way or imprison them, if they defy them and refuse to serve in the military in this time of our history.

This illegal war is not worth my son's or my daughter's lives or the lives of anyone!

Yes, we have very different reasons for feeling the way we do, but he have much in common for feeling that way too.

Again, Welcome back to PTO and God Bless you and yours.

Patti

Personally, I see nothing wrong with socialist programs. I do know my brother-in-law
pays alot of taxes, but the health care in Germany, is way better than here in the
U.S. Same goes for vacation time! ;-)
However, I agree with everyone else: do your probation! You'll feel better about
yourself, in the long run, and then later, if you still wish, go overseas!
Then, you won't have to worry about 'looking over your shoulder', because
you did the right thing, even if you didn't agree with the initial decision against you!

I was born in Stuggart Germany to Military parents. My dad is half german and My Grandma is full. Would that make me eligible to at least move there? I'm no coward but I will not fight in a illegal iraq war.

From what I understand yes, however, and it is a big however, so let me explain. Also please know we are in the process of checking this information out with the German Embassy, so if I find out different I will tell you.

I was born in Germany and lived there till I was ten. From the information I have, my son is entitled to German citizenship through me, because of my citizenship. Now from what I have been told my son can apply now, so long as he does not have a felony conviction, if he does then he has to wait five years from the date of conviction or the date of release, I am not sure which yet to apply.

If your Dad held or holds German Citizenship then I would think you would be entitled, however, your conviction may be a problem, I would check with the German Embassy or the Attache nearest you.

My son is no coward either, he plans on volunteering for the Luftwaffe as soon as he can. My God-Father flew ME-109s in WW II and my son loved to hear the stories and had hoped to fly, now because of his eyes, he hopes to get the training for ground crew.

However, my son will not fight in this illegal war either.

Good Luck, and if I can help more, I'm here most of the time.

Patti

PS; Just a thought where in Stuttgart were you born? Were you born in hospital on base, or a German hospital?

My Birth Certificate say Stuggart Bad CannStatt, it is in German, I think it was German Territory because I was told I would never be able to run for president in a America big deal.

My Grandma was A German who Immigarated to America. That makes me at least 25 percent. I'm more German in ethinicty than anything else. If I have to wait 5 yrs from my conviction date then that is what I will do. Meanwhile saving up for the trip to Germany

Have you called the German Embassy or gotten in contact with an Attache? You may want to fax them you birth certificate. Sounds to me like that might be the key.

Patti

I haven't contacted a German Embassy yet but will once I find the original. Or otherwise I may have to make a trip to Stuggart to get my Birth Certificate

Hi Fragem

Maybe you could PM Barbara (username: mayday) one of our European members who's German. She sure would be able to give you the address and fax number in Stuttgart where to get your birth certificate without having to fly over there.

Just a thought.
Good luck.
Phil

hi , i am from england and have lived in america for 14 years, with me having a british passport and my husband holding an american passport, we truly contemplated the same, if he had gotten self-surrendering we were going to be gone!!! however after a little research we found out that we wouldn't even make it out of ANY international airport, only option was to go to mexico and fly from there BUT once we made it to england, they would have him extradited back with more serious consequences, england checks everyone, visiting or whatever the circumstances are... plus... you would have to be self supported with a LOT of money and forever be looking over your shoulder, just do your probation and get it over with, be gratefull that is all you have to do.....
karen

Relax Karenin Texas my probation was revoked 10 months ago. I'm now trying to leave the country after have served time for probation violation, so i can start a new life. Away from the influences of the past

Socialist country...
Well I live in this wonderful Sweden with "the world's best maternity leave". And yes, things are very different in Europe than from the US. We pay 30% taxes, but in return it's free to study at university, college, free medical care etc.
That is good because it gives everytone the same chance.

However (back to the subject), I'd strongly recomend you to stay in the US. You are welcome to europe no matter where you are from, but finish your business instead of running!
Good luck!

" can you say TAXES? Europeans pay a ton for those socialist programs. "

I assume you vote republican.
I have lived in both Europe and North America.
I my opinion you pay a lot more here....in terms of
low public education,
lack of universal health care
no reasonable day care
people working 40 hours a week and not making a living wage
high infant mortality rate.
too many people in prison
racial problems
poverty
etc etc.

By any reasonable score the US is not considered a great country to live in when folks compare these things...if you are comparing with Canada, Europe, Australia, New Zealand etc.

In short...civilisation and a equable life needs reasonable taxation.
Taxation of the rich in the US is not reasonable.

On the other hand I do live here by choice!

Fragem:

You still in America?

Let us know.

Hang tough, this too shall pass. Please don't do something stupid.

abner

Honey, honestly I wouldn't post that on PTO. You really never know who is reading through this stuff. It's just a piece of advice, I don't want you to get in trouble or anything!

Fragem:

I too would be interested in knowing if you are still in the U.S.?

Sweetestsin:

I understand your concern and I am the first to warn members of what they post on PTO. However, in the case of Fragem he has not posted anything that I see that could get him in trouble. Now if he planned to flee the country to avoid prosecution or his punishment I could understand.

I on the other hand have said some things in this thread that could probably come back on me and I stand by every word.

I do continue to warn others not to post something, unless they are prepared for the posibility of the wrong person reading what they have said.

Yes this could effect their case or their loved ones case, so you do have to be careful what you post here, as anywhere on the internet.

As for me, I say what I mean, and I mean what I say.

Patti

I too have considered emigrating. I object most strenuously to the illegal Iraq war. I think that the government is out of control.

Right now, emigrating is not a plan for me as I have some legal issues to take care of first.:blah: They are connected with the method that I have chosen to object to the bad behavior of the U.S. government. My trial is in January. I stand by my actions. I feel that I did the right thing. The government sees it differently... and certainly, the military does.

I will have my day in court. If I don't get acquitted, I will simply live with whatever the judge plans for me. If I do get acquitted, I will celebrate.

Then I will contemplate emigration.

meowmachine

OK--I am going to speak frankly-
If you admit you committed a crime- then it is you should take RESPONSIBILTY for your actions. Probation is cake if you abide by the rules.
I have completed 2 1/2 years probation with 2 1/2 to go- because the police found an empty bag of dope under a friends mattress- mind you I was in the other room. But- I knew she had drugs in her house- I also have a 7 year suspended sentence for it. You didn't get a plea bargain BUTyou also didn't get sent to jail. Someone said it: probation is a slap on the wrist.

I got screwed on my case, I got two felonies for two stupid incidents of petty vandalism, because I had a state paid lawyer, I didn't even get a plea bargain.

I'm thinking about skipping on my probation and moving to Europe, anyone ever done this? Will they actively pursue people for violating probation, if they are in another Country?

I was born in Stuggart Germany to Military parents. My dad is half german and My Grandma is full. Would that make me eligible to at least move there? I'm no coward but I will not fight in a illegal iraq war.
By your own account Fragem your a convicted felon. That takes you out of ever being drafted or joining any USA military service.

Once your done with probation pack your bags for Germany if you wish.:thumbsup:

Britain is a lot like France. you would have a real hard time getting a job and supporting yourself, as all employers are obligated to see National Insurance (Social Security) documents before they hire you!!

Not to forget... here in Europe most of us have treaties with the US to extradite!! If you got stopped by the police here in the UK, the first thing they would do is to check your status!! You would be in even more problems. It would make probation sem like a picnic!!

I would highly suggest that you stay there in the U.S. and just do your probation!

Isn't not doing what you ought to do what started your problems to begin with?

The state paid lawyer or the system or anyone else in America didn't make you do your vandalism, and someone had to pay out of their own pocket, most likely, to undo what you did.

If America isn't disillusioned with you, and I see no posts from America saying it is, then I see no reason for you to be ticked off about it all.

But if you want to go, then by all means, please go. But if you don't like the prison system here, I recommend you stay away from spray paint in other countries.