Hi everyone. I'm A.Z., I was a marine and was general court-martialed. Sentenced to 15 years. I served my pre-trial time at Camp Pendleton Base Brig (California) until I was transfered to USDB at Fort Leavenworth, KS. I received clemency from SECNAV without comment, reducing my sentence to 8 years. I served 4 years and then was paroled and completed parole after another 4 years. I was released from the DB almost 13 years ago and have been off paper since 1999.

I am currently working on a book with an author in an effort to expose the abuses that occur at the USDB in Leavenworth. The public knows very little about this place and the military likes it that way. I think it will interest many Americans to know how the military treats it's own and that the abuse is not limited to enemy combatants at Guantanamo Bay or Abu Ghraib.

My ultimate goal is to have the USDB closed down for good. I would like you all to take a minute and ask yourselves something that probably has never crossed your mind before. Why does the military have a maximum security prison (USDB) that houses long term prisoners sentenced to punitive discharges that will never wear the uniform again? Why does the military hang on to these prisoners? Why are they not all transferred to the Federal Bureau of Prisons (FBOP) to serve their sentences? How can the militarty afford to spend $68 million dollars on a brand new facility to confine people who are never going back to active duty again? The answer of course is money.

Don't misunderstand me now. I believe the military has every right to have a UCMJ to maintain good order and discipline within the ranks. I support their right to court-martial servicemembers who violate the UCMJ and to sentence them to confinement if merited. I support their right to have brigs to house servicemembers sentenced to confinement but who will be returning to duty afterwards. HOWEVER, for those servicemembers who are sentenced to a punitive discharge and long term confinement....they should be shipped to the FBOP to serve their sentences. The FBOP is in the business of housing long term confinement prisoners. They are very good at what they do. The mission of the military is to support and defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. We don't send the FBOP to places like Afghanistan or Iraq to wage war. They are not in the business of waging war. The military is no more qualified to run a long term confinement facility than the FBOP is to wage war.

raises a great big "hmmmm" with me.....i'll get back to you

Another book written by another disgruntled former inmate who was confined for some reason that obviously wasn't legal to begin with.

I won't say that conditions at the old DB were stellar. As a matter of fact, I can only comment to what I have been told. What I can say is this... the new facility is as humane as any in the world.

The inmates are now able to get education, job skills, decent food, climate controlled living quarters, access to medical and dental treatment, access to psychological treatment, and a number of other services.

As for why the military keeps its own... well that's easy. In the event that an inmate's sentence is set aside or otherwise overturned, they actuall CAN be returned to duty. That isn't such an easy task if they've been farmed out to the feds. There have been a few that this has happened to.

But in the event that their appeals are complete and the discharge is executed, then they are eligible to be sent to the feds. And believe me... there are several that DON'T want to go. In the DB, Child Sex Offenders are unproportionately high. They are "safe" as it were. The same cannot be said for the fed system. When we send them there, the horror stories can become a reality.

So before you go trying to conjur some conspiracy, actually do the research and facts about the new face of military corrections. You may be suprised at what you find.

If you want to tell a story abouot the old DB, just remember to keep your emotions out of it. Emoptions can, and oftentimes do, distort the truth.

Another book written by another disgruntled former inmate who was confined for some reason that obviously wasn't legal to begin with.

To my knowledge no former DB inmates have written books about the DB. Furthermore, I have no intention of writing about my case specifically. The book is about the USDB past, present, and future.

I won't say that conditions at the old DB were stellar. As a matter of fact, I can only comment to what I have been told. What I can say is this... the new facility is as humane as any in the world.

If you have no first hand knowledge of the old DB then you are not qualified to comment at all.

The inmates are now able to get education, job skills, decent food, climate controlled living quarters, access to medical and dental treatment, access to psychological treatment, and a number of other services.

The inmates will be able to to receive the same at the Federal Bureau of Prisons.

As for why the military keeps its own... well that's easy. In the event that an inmate's sentence is set aside or otherwise overturned, they actuall CAN be returned to duty. That isn't such an easy task if they've been farmed out to the feds. There have been a few that this has happened to.

Laughable. That's the best you could come up with? If an inmate is serving his 50 years in the FBOP and the military finally gets around to overturning his conviction during the appeals process several years later, they can release him from the FBOP just as easily as they can if he were at the DB. People serving sentences in state and federal prisons have their cases overturned all the time and they are released. This is nothing unique to the military.

But in the event that their appeals are complete and the discharge is executed, then they are eligible to be sent to the feds. And believe me... there are several that DON'T want to go. In the DB, Child Sex Offenders are unproportionately high. They are "safe" as it were. The same cannot be said for the fed system. When we send them there, the horror stories can become a reality.

There may be those inmates at the DB who DON'T want to go to the feds but since when has the military ever cared about where you WANT to go? The fed system has no shortage of Child Sex Offenders and are capable of housing them in a safe environment. Most CSO doing time at the DB would probably be sent to a minimum security facility in the feds anyway. The DB does not exist to provide comfort and safety to it's convicted CSO's.

So before you go trying to conjur some conspiracy, actually do the research and facts about the new face of military corrections. You may be suprised at what you find.

No need to "conjure" anything, it is what it is. The "new face of military corrections" is the same face with better make-up and masquera. I have contacts within the new DB and nothing has changed.

If you want to tell a story abouot the old DB, just remember to keep your emotions out of it. Emoptions can, and oftentimes do, distort the truth.

The story of the DB will be told and emotions will be left out of it. There is no need to distort the truth, I will leave that to you MisInfoSec.

Getting transferred to the Feds is actully in a sense better.
The Army has "extra good time" which the USDB never gives out. After I learned that the DB would accept all extra good time requests from the Feds I suckered a lot of the FBOP personnel to fill out the correct forms to get the extra good time and managed to cut off 2 months off my time and got out 2 days before Christmas.

Now, now... no need to be disparaging and sarcastic in the forum. We are all opinionated and entitled to be just that. It's easy to understand different perspectives based on prior or current experiences with the military justice system. If you are "inside" because you are convicted and if you are "inside" because you were assigned duty at the DB, it's a whole different ballgame, I'm sure. Just keep in mind that this forum is, primarily, for information gathering and dissemination. Disagreement and difference of opinion is fine, but not attacks on a person's integrity (unless there is just a blatant lack of credibility). And we certainly do not want to dissuade ANYONE from posting. Everyone is welcome here; every post is as valuable as the one before and the one after. From each person who posts here we glean some bit of information or insight that helps us understand the process we are going through. No one should feel that maybe they shouldn't post because they might be wrong or that someone might not appreciate their words. We're all experiencing this together, but we all have different perspectives and individual frustrations. Please keep this in mind when replying to correct or disagree. Keep the faith, folks!

~Lisa.

After looking at some of the new bids for DoD contracts, it appears that not only is the DB going to be there a long, long time, but it is going to get bigger. It appears ideas are being thrown around to build a confinement facility on the same plat. Maybe in the future we be looking at the closing of regional confinement facilities and consolidating them into one right next door to the DB. Why do we keep the DB? Its a million dollar industry. Inmates making nil income to produce simple products the DoD used to contract millions for. Name tapes with velcro sewn for the ACU can cost $3.50 each to be produced on the civilian market. However, contracted with the DB who can charge the same, can produce the same quality and amount for the cost of materials only and a meger approximate $.30 in labor and hour with a slight increase for those inmates earning a few cents more for a shift deferential for working nights. There is no risk of losing the labor force, as DB inmates receive punishment for not attending regularly scheduled work hours. The income earned by inmates is generally turned around and spent on the ration sheets, in the contracted phone system, or else throughout the system (photocopier cards, ect). The monies virtually never leave except for the occassional outside order of new shoes or radios. Locally in my area, millions are spent each year through DB contracts. In etched glasses alone, for the MP, Chem, Engr Regimental Balls, the DB makes a killing. Local Army Community Services and installation Army Family Team Building (the old Army wives clubs, or family support groups) spend their share on silk screened tote bags, t-shirts and other misc itms from the graphic arts dept at the DB. The monies are there for the spending and the DB is not going to let that go. FBOP is not unaware of the monies to be made also. FBOP can recieve DoD subsidies for "housing" the transfered DoD prisoners. Just like the local school districts receive monies for educating DoD dependents off installations. The FBOP would LOVE to see the DB at over flowing capacity. Just like everything else in the military today, if the area isnt producing the numbers ($) it goes away, whether it benefits the military or not. The DB makes its numbers and isnt going to go away any time soon. The local Lansing/Leavenworth communities arent going to let it happen also. "Tourism" monies spent by visiting families are an important artery for these communities also. When not visiting loved ones for the 6 hours, they must house and feed themselves, re-fill their gas tanks and rent their cars to get back and forth. They support Aafes thru the Burger King drive thru and spend their monies at the food court at the PX. The consolidation of regional facilities will boost them too. And local commisions and governments are very well aware of this. Financially the DB is not going to go anywhere. They will continue to minimize "luxuries" for those housed there and continue to maximize their profits. You know its true. If the commandant ordered to replace the mattresses or requisition more employees to increase counseling services and remotely over spends his budget in those areas, we would see a new commandant in the next fiscal year. If the DB was to go away, we would be releasing 500 income earning bodies into FBOP and the military does not like to lose monies. Anyway, just my take on the remote idea of the DB ever being "closed down."

Excellent post Buglerswife. You hit the nail on the head! The military keeps the DB because it is self sufficient and a tremendous source of revenue. That doesn't negate the fact that the military shouldn't be in the business of warehousing long term inmates sentenced to punitive discharges.

At first I almost found humor in the fact that mailing addy for the DB was "Warehouse Road"... however, many things truely sadden me regarding the treatment or actually the LACK of treatment provided there. One case troubles me often and Im positive many other inmates are in need also. In a gen pop pod, we have people who TRUELY need counseling for mental health issues - not anger mngt, - no SO rehab, not NA or AA. In the FBOP system these inmates would be receiving care at the Federal Hospital. But at the DB, "we" the military dropped the ball and perhaps could have avoided a crime of occurring, and the DB refuses to perform psych evals , and when they do, they definately arent in a timely manner. And in one case, in a psych eval when psychotropic medications are recommended, they are not dispensed because of lack of staff available to oversee adverse effects. UGH! Okay, so maybe there is just a handful of people in need like Ive jsut described, but still its one too many. As mentioned in this thread, the MAJORITY of those confined are FIRST time criminals. Okay, Okay, so maybe they need ANGER MNGT, wouldnt you if you were there! But recently, the DB is cutting alot of their prided vocational programs. If you search around, you will see how the facility boasted themselves on being one of the first to offer such. Recently there was a 10 day lockdown of a pod...I wont even go there on any possible violation of amendment rights....Staffing is inadequate in numbers and training. Thank goodness there are currently a few good senior NCOs there to attempt to lead by example. But they too shall PCS. Has anyone there actually been successful in obtaining a college degree? (If so, please IM me and give me some advice.) Although Ive heard good things re: sick call and dentac sick call, Im positive it is understaffed. OH WAIT! I forgot, these are criminals...they dont need adequate bedding or health care or counseling...WTF was I thinking....SORRY....But still, if my loved one had to be anywhere, Im glad he is there. Im thankful that his peers have the intestinal fortitude to suck it up through the degrading day to day activities of life there. Im glad they can police themselves. I find comfort in knowing my loved one will not be transfered to another facility in the middle of the night, Im glad I know where he is. Im glad his odds of being raped or shanked are extremely lower in the DB than other places. Im glad there is still the structure present that he understands and has lived for many mnay years of his life. Im glad we are able to have visitation in a safe, clean environment where I am not harrassed or belittled. Of course Ive never been on the other side of door, and Im sure I am not told the REAL truth of how horrible it might be. But, somehow, I find comfort knowing he is there and not else where. **Idea, with all the hoopla going on a Walter Reed and big looksie into the military health care systems and treatment of patients and dependents, I bet it wouldnt take much for the DB and the RCFs to get the once over also.

A-Z stop dancing around the issue, you went to Leavenworth for a reason, as all the people who go there do, why don't you tell us what you did. I am very curious myself, considering that you were an enlisted man who got 15 years for your crime. You also have yet to state any real reasons or facts to why the USDB should be shutdown. I was just searching for information on Leavenworth for my MS class when I came across this thread, and all though I do respect your opinion, I do agree with a previous post that you seem like a disgruntle former prisoner who wants some type of retribution. The fact of the matter is all who are sent to the USDB have been convicted of a crime, a serious one at that, and deserve to be there. I am sorry if you do not agree with this and I respect your service to this country, even though it ended with a prison sentence, but I do not believe that this prison should be shut down because it was tough on you or anyone else. Prison is suppose to be tough not a daycare. Lastly, as a member of the US military you represent this great nation and should be held to a higher standard than that of the inmates in federal prison; if this means that you go to a prison that is more strict and one the may seem abusive compared to our country’s current country club prisons-so be it.

By the way I am not speaking as a civilian, I am speaking as a future officer, who will up hold the values of this great nation with honor and integrity, and by doing so I can guarantee that I will not end up at Leavenworth.

Norwood,
First, welcome to PTO and the Military Justice Forum. Second, thank you for your input and opinion. Third, thank you in advance for your future service to the nation and its citizens. Now...please edit the last sentence of your post to say that you "...will uphold the values of this great nation with honor and integrity, and by doing so can ALMOST guarantee that will not end up at Leavenworth." None of the inmates at USDB began their military career with the idea that they would not serve honorably and thereby insure their later incarceration. No one can guarantee that they will not end up an inmate, anywhere, much less at the USDB. Even officers make mistakes (please don't forget that), and all must bear the consequences of their actions. I don't believe that anyone on this forum thinks that prison should be more day-care like than prison-like; I believe the concerns are that the needs of inmates (both physical and mental) are met and that inmates should not be the only ones required to follow regulations, both prescriptive and proscriptive. I, personally, have no problem with the fact that my son is incarcerated (and, for the record, neither does he), I only want to insure that he emerges from incarceration mentally and physically healthy, as well as prepared to resume the remainder of his life as a productive member of society. The concerns expressed in the forum regarding disregard of basic needs and lack of professionalism in the administration of corrections policies are valid concerns. Good luck in your studies and your future career in the military. Please continue to contribute.

Ok Norwood,
So you think this guy is looking for restitution? I think the only thing this guy is looking for is to make sure others come out of confinment with all there marbles. Unless you have been a inmate @ one of these places or have a loved one that is/has you don't really have a clue. Most of these guards are young and on a powere trip they walk around like bullys on a grade school
playground. As for the female guards in a male brig, that's another problem.

As far as your statment " By the way I am not speaking as a civilian, I am speaking as a future officer, who will up hold the values of this great nation with honor and integrity, and by doing so I can guarantee that I will not end up at Leavenworth." my son is doing time with several oficers and I'm sure they didn't plan on a lengthly stay at "LA BRIG"!
I would strongly sugest you watch your "badder than thou" attitude as that will get you no where unless of course you are on base. The marine corp gave my son the same attitude and look where he is now. I am not being sarcastic, I just don't want to see another guy go through this crap or another Family have to stand by and watch. I am a civilian but I grew up with a Air force Dad and married a marine (26 yrs now) plus our son did the corp. so I think I speak with a little experience.
I will pray for you.
Mombert

Personally i have no one in my direct family who is currently in prison, but I do have friends from High school who are now in prison and everyone of them has done something to be where they are now. Also I never said that there were no officers in Leavenworth, considering that Leavenworth is one of the only places where officers can be jailed. I am not trying to make any disparaging remarks towards anyone or their family. I am trying to say that the military should have their own military prison system because there is a difference between a civilian committing a crime and a men or women serving in the US armed forces comitting one. In my opinion, prison is about rehabilitation, but it should be no cake-walk to go through.

No excuses here, my son knows he did wrong but there is a difference between rehabilitation and complete humiliation. Where my son is (not levenworth) is not a place where they take pride in rehabilitaion. He is taunted by Military personell that are just looking to make trouble. Seems like a game of who can break him. Excuse me sir but, the military system is a joke! I agree that the other systems need to get tough however, ruining a young man to train 18 yr olds is NOT rehabilitaion to me. These guards have even gone so far as to make fun of me to try to get my son upset. You see, I have a strange appearance due to my battle with leukemia and the stem cell transplant that has helped me to survive. I have dark patches all over my face and at the time this all happened had open areas on my face. The guard that took him back to his bay that afternoon held him @ the end of the line and when the door to the bay shut leaving just the two of them in the stairwell, he started in on him. I was not supposed to know about this but my husband went to visit the next day and our boy confided in him. Is this rehabilitation?

Norwood, what issue am I dancing around? I think my posts are pretty straight forward and to the point. I stated that the DB should be closed and all long term inmates sentenced to punitive discharges should be confined by the FBOP. I never said that anyone (including myself) at the DB didn't deserve to be in prison. I said the military has no business running a long term confinement facility for men and women who will never wear the uniform again.

If you want to hold servicemembers to a higher standard that is fine by me but after they are tried, convicted, and sentenced they should serve their time in the FBOP. If you think the FBOP is a cake walk or day care, or country club then you are sadly mistaken. USPs Leavenworth, Marion, Lewisburg, Florence, Lompoc and many more are all hard core penitentiaries. The FBOP is in the business of running prisons, it is what they do full time 24-7-365. They don't wage war on the side. The military has no business running a prison and the fact that they spent $68 million dollars to build a new USDB proves that the only reason they do so is because they make a huge profit off of it.

BTW, unless you have completed OCS or boot camp and are already wearing the uniform then you ARE talking as a civilian......a civilian that knows not what he speaks.

Thank you a-z for assuming that I am that unintelligent that I would think just being in a ROTC program means that I am not a civilian. Unfortunately, for you though I am at an Academy and I am considered an E-5 right now. So, I am not speaking as a civilian and think a little before you write your comments because my fellow cadets and I have worked very hard to be where we are now.

What I was pointing out is that you have yet to provide facts of your or anyone else’s experiences, to support your argument to why the USDB should be shut down. All you have provided are some question in your original statement, question that you have not provided answers for, and if you think that the answers to all of those questions is money you need to dig a little deeper my friend. Therefore, you have yet to convince me that the USDB should be shut down.

As for my country club/daycare comments, they were not pertaining to military prisons they were pertaining to much of the federal and state prisons of the US.

To mombert I am sorry to hear of your illness; my family has been affected by cancer as well and I pray for your speedy recovery. It is terrible that a soldier would do that to your son, in our training we are taught that one part of leadership is mutual respect, but many times, there are a few people who do not follow this protocol. My only experience with something like that is when one of the Cadet leadership said something about my girlfriend when he saw a picture of her. Not nearly as bad as what happened to your son, but I just wanted to share an experience. It is inexcusable for a person to speak of someone’s mother in that manner and if I was the officer responsible for that soldier I would have held him accountable for his actions.

What I was pointing out is that you have yet to provide facts of your or anyone else’s experiences, to support your argument to why the USDB should be shut down.

I am not asserting that the USDB should be closed down based on my experiences there or anyone elses. I assert that the DB should be closed down because the military HAS NO BUSINESS RUNNING A LONG TERM CONFINEMENT FACILITY TO HOUSE INMATES WHO WILL NEVER WEAR THE UNIFORM AGAIN! How many times do I have to say it? This isn't about me or anybody else at the DB past or present. It is based on the fact that the military is in the business of waging war not penology. The feds (FBOP)are the professionals when it comes to prisons and just as the FBOP doesn't wage a little war on the side so too should the miltary not run prisons on the side EXCEPT for brigs and stockades where the people will be returning to duty after their sentence to confinement.

This is my last response to you Cadet Norwood. Good luck with your military career.

BTW, all of the prisons I listed in my last post are federal prisons and none of them are country clubs. I am not advocating that we should coddle military prisoners just that they should be remanded to the custody of the Federal Bureau of Prisons to serve their sentences.

Norwood,
First of all, thank you for your prayers and know that I will be saying them for you as well.
In response to your statement:
It is inexcusable for a person to speak of someone’s mother in that manner and if I was the officer responsible for that soldier I would have held him accountable for his actions.
This is absolutley correct but the problem is just this:
If you turn the guard in or if I called it just makes more trouble for the inmate. This is not just a one time thing, a mater of fact things like this happen all the time where my son is at. If he trys to put in a chit to discuss something that may cause problems for military personell @ the brig, it rairley gets where it is supposed to go. This is an awful situation and I guess you now understand why I am so down on the military prison system. I am happy for the fact that there is no fighting or gangs in the brig, I guess that's cause they would pay dearly for making that mistake. My boy has talked of times where he felt that maybe someone had managed to get some drugs inside. He says the atmosphere changes and he just keeps to himself @ times like that.
I do however take your stand on things having to be different in the fed and state pens. I speak to many people who have loved ones there and they have it better than many that live on the outside. Something is wrong with that picture.

At first I almost found humor in the fact that mailing addy for the DB was "Warehouse Road"... .

When was this? When I was there it was McPhearson Avenue.

I am not asserting that the USDB should be closed down based on my experiences there or anyone elses. I assert that the DB should be closed down because the military HAS NO BUSINESS RUNNING A LONG TERM CONFINEMENT FACILITY TO HOUSE INMATES WHO WILL NEVER WEAR THE UNIFORM AGAIN! How many times do I have to say it? This isn't about me or anybody else at the DB past or present. It is based on the fact that the military is in the business of waging war not penology. The feds (FBOP)are the professionals when it comes to prisons and just as the FBOP doesn't wage a little war on the side so too should the miltary not run prisons on the side EXCEPT for brigs and stockades where the people will be returning to duty after their sentence to confinement.

This is my last response to you Cadet Norwood. Good luck with your military career.

BTW, all of the prisons I listed in my last post are federal prisons and none of them are country clubs. I am not advocating that we should coddle military prisoners just that they should be remanded to the custody of the Federal Bureau of Prisons to serve their sentences.

The reaosn why they house long term inmates still, is because of the regulations still on the books.

There is a "return to duty" program that the military has. It is no longer used, but it is still there.

The reaosn why they house long term inmates still, is because of the regulations still on the books.

There is a "return to duty" program that the military has. It is no longer used, but it is still there.

LOL! You can't possibly believe that is the reason the DB exists.

LOL! You can't possibly believe that is the reason the DB exists.


Umm..I answered another question which it is clear you did not bother to read.

So A-Z it is in your opinion that the military has no right to run a prison. Oh, and you have no hard facts to why this is, other than "the military HAS NO BUSINESS RUNNING A LONG TERM CONFINEMENT FACILITY TO HOUSE INMATES WHO WILL NEVER WEAR THE UNIFORM AGAIN", but this still sounds like an opinion. I don't know who you expect to convince that the USDB should be shut down by using the reasoning of opinion. I am not sure if that is what an argument or debate should be based on but if it suits you go right ahead.

Thank you Mombert for your prayers and your reply to my post. Also, if you didn’t notice I am from New Jersey, and proud to be from the great state. Well by me there are many Russian immigrants compared to the rest of the country; sometimes they get involved in organized crime, and when the go to jail and come out, many times they say they would go back to jail in the US anytime. This is because they are used to the harsh conditions of the Russian prison system, I am not advocating such a harsh system, but it gives you something to think about when people come out of prison with an attitude like that.

Umm..I answered another question which it is clear you did not bother to read.

Umm...which question was that? Was it on this thread?

You posted:The reaosn why they house long term inmates still, is because of the regulations still on the books.

There is a "return to duty" program that the military has. It is no longer used, but it is still there.

Please tell me you don't really believe the reason they still house long term inmates is because of a "return to duty" program that even you admit they don't use.

As for the other question you answered that I obviously didn't bother to read.....I don't read everything you post.

So A-Z it is in your opinion that the military has no right to run a prison. Oh, and you have no hard facts to why this is, other than "the military HAS NO BUSINESS RUNNING A LONG TERM CONFINEMENT FACILITY TO HOUSE INMATES WHO WILL NEVER WEAR THE UNIFORM AGAIN", but this still sounds like an opinion. I don't know who you expect to convince that the USDB should be shut down by using the reasoning of opinion. I am not sure if that is what an argument or debate should be based on but if it suits you go right ahead.

Cadet Norwood, you have managed to squeeze one last response from me. Of course it my OPINION that the DB should be closed. My opinion is not even based on my experience as an inmate there though it could be. Many arguments and debates are based on opinion and many opinions based on fact.

I dare anyone to tell me ONE GOOD REASON WHY the US Military should have a long term confinement facility to house ex-service members who are sentenced to not only long term confinement but punitive discharges and will NEVER wear the uniform again. WHY? The DB routinely transfers inmates to the FBOP as it is. Why not transfer all of them? Why is it SOOOO IMPORTANT to keep them in the custody of the military? What useful purpose does it serve OTHER than the FACT (not my opinion) that the military makes ALOT of money from the USDB!! They make so much money off the DB that they can afford to spend $68 million to build a BRAND NEW one that will hold LESS inmates!!

So the reason I say it should be closed is because there is no reason for it to exist in the first place. The Federal Bureau of Prisons is more than capable of confining all inmates sentenced by the military.

A-Z stop dancing around the issue, you went to Leavenworth for a reason, as all the people who go there do, why don't you tell us what you did. I am very curious myself, considering that you were an enlisted man who got 15 years for your crime. You also have yet to state any real reasons or facts to why the USDB should be shutdown. I was just searching for information on Leavenworth for my MS class when I came across this thread, and all though I do respect your opinion, I do agree with a previous post that you seem like a disgruntle former prisoner who wants some type of retribution. The fact of the matter is all who are sent to the USDB have been convicted of a crime, a serious one at that, and deserve to be there. I am sorry if you do not agree with this and I respect your service to this country, even though it ended with a prison sentence, but I do not believe that this prison should be shut down because it was tough on you or anyone else. Prison is suppose to be tough not a daycare. Lastly, as a member of the US military you represent this great nation and should be held to a higher standard than that of the inmates in federal prison; if this means that you go to a prison that is more strict and one the may seem abusive compared to our country’s current country club prisons-so be it.

By the way I am not speaking as a civilian, I am speaking as a future officer, who will up hold the values of this great nation with honor and integrity, and by doing so I can guarantee that I will not end up at Leavenworth.

its pretty funny how you first tell AZ you respect his right to his own opinion and then go on to say he is completely wrong about the USDB as if stating fact. i think he has a pretty good perspective on what is wrong there.

just b/c he or anyone else has been sentenced for a crime does not mean they cant see something wrong with the system they are put into. They arent automatically people with a grudge. that is the line most people will give right off the bat to try and stifle a legitimate concern. and being a "future officer" means you probably know dick about the USDB and its faults.

and if you believe that everyone there deserves to be there, then you have already been brainwashed and the military doesnt even need to train you. open your eyes kiddo

my problem with the military justice system is that the system is broke and needs to be taken out of the hands of ind. commanders. the jury should not be picked by the same officer who approves the action. anything with such a high conviction rate bears much scrutiny.

and as for your thouhts about how if it was wrong and you were in charge, you would....
nothing in the military is black or white, right or wrong, good or bad. and you will realize if you do serve that the military is run on the good ol boy system and the right thing is often set aside for a career or a friend's wishes or any number of reasons

Well Discoball thanks for telling me that I know nothing of the USDB because as it clearly state in the post that you quoted, “I was just searching for information on Leavenworth for my MS [Military Science] class when I came across this thread”, it seems that while I may not know much from the prospective of an inmate, I do know a little about the history of the USDB.

Also, respecting someone’s opinion does not mean that you have to agree with it, that’s called accepting someone opinion, and questioning it because you are not convinced that the opinion is the right is called a debate. In the course of a debate, one usually uses facts to backup their opinion, thereby proving their point.

A-Z some reasons the USDB should stay open, just off the top of my head.
-The person who committed the crime was part of the military at the time they committed the crime, not a civilian.
-The people in Leavenworth were tried in a military court not a civilian court.
-Even though you dispute it and it my not be use often, there is a “return to duty” program.
-Leavenworth provides Vocational/Trade training for its inmates.
-This training also provides products to be sold, and we are a capitalist society.
Just a few I’m sure I could find more with further research.

Just because I can, I'm going to toss my two cents in here:

USDB has a long history of housing military inmates. Why is there a separate system set up? I don't know. No one on this forum has proposed why, other than the fact that some inmates MAY return to duty after serving their time and efficiency (even military standards of efficiency) would probably be better served by having them in one location (although that is negated by having RCFs as well as the USDB). Additionally, few if any of the inmates at USDB will return to duty. The nature and seriousness of the crimes committed by those individuals fairly well negate that possibility. Just because, as Norwood, proposed, that person was convicted by courts-martial, is not a valid argument either, since military prisoners are transferred to federal facilities as a matter of course. There is nothing particularly special about a courts-martial conviction when compared to a conviction in civilian courts (other than the conviction rate!) Vocational/Trade training is a valid argument, but that same training is provided in state and federal systems so the military has no corner on that market and the training provided is not unique. As to an argument that we are a capitalist society, the military might be one of the largest participants in our economy (given the diversity and far-reaching effects of defense contracts), but it produces no goods or services that enter commerce. The DOD is an administrative branch of government, not a free market enterprise. As such, the USDB is not in the business to make money. I believe the rhetoric is that the services provided by the inmates produce money FOR the USDB, not for any other entity.

I tend to agree with A-Z that the best argument is that the military is in the business of national/international defense and security, and the FBOP is in the business of housing inmates. Why muddy the waters? The USDB and the RCF's do not provide any different "service" to inmates that a federal or state facility does. Why should our tax dollars go to support additional government services that could be consolidated at significant taxpayer savings? I imagine that "further research" would lead us to lined pockets somewhere...

there's my two cents' worth. feel free to give me back change!

excellent post De Nada.

I spent half my time at the old USDB and the other half at the FBOP.
Both of them have their advantages and disadvantges.

But part of the reason the USDB still exists is because some "crimes" under the UCMJ are not crimes under civilian law and thus military specific. For example, adultry. Under UCMJ it is up to one year of confinement. Even though a change in federal allows USDB inmates to be transfered to the FBOP, I think it would be a bit difficult for them to confine someone who had not broken a civilian law.

Someone could possibly challenge their legality of their confinement if it was only a military offense and nothing similar under civilian law.

If someone is serving a year for adultery they aren't at the DB.

If someone is serving a year for adultery they aren't at the DB.

All officers are sent to the DB, even cadets even if it is for just four months.

then they could stay in the brig or the stockade and serve their short sentence in the same place they served their pretrial confinement.

To say that the DB exists because some crimes are only crimes in the military and citing adultery as an example is weak.

Adultery is still a statutory crime in many states, it just isn't prosecuted.

then they could stay in the brig or the stockade and serve their short sentence in the same place they served their pretrial confinement.

To say that the DB exists because some crimes are only crimes in the military and citing adultery as an example is weak.

It's DOD regulation that officers stay at the USDB.

LOL, if the DB no longer existed then the officers would be shipped out to the Feds if they are long termers or remain in the brig/stockade if they're short timers.

You know, just like the ex-officer here was transferred to the Feds.

ExDBinmate, if you think the DB should remain at least come up with some better reasons why it is needed so desperately.

"Prison is suppose to be tough not a daycare."

Not true, it is supposed to be a safe environment punishing by restriction.

So does my getting to the Castle in 99' show in my number?

The castle was not a safe or healthy place to be. Crappy heat, no fans and 100+ temps. Ever sleep on a concrete floor to try and cool off?

Been there done that.:mad: