View Full Version : Zero Tolerance Policy for Parolees and Probationers Involved with Guns


studentofamelia
07-28-2006, 06:57 AM
Hi. My nephew has come up against the Michigan zero tolerance weapons policy for parolees.

He was with a friend who had a bb gun. He took the gun away from his friend to keep him from threating someone with it. He has now been charged with a parole violation and is facing the 5 year minimum sentence defined by this policy, which was initiated in 2004.

Has anyone had experience with this violation? Is there a good approach to take at his parole hearing? Can it be appealed? Will he have the opportunity for parole in less than 5 years?

Thanks!

mrsdragoness
07-28-2006, 10:15 AM
Its my understanding that it is indeed a zero tolerance law and I don't believe he will be able to be paroled before the 5 years are up. I'm sure he can appeal it, but I'm not positive. An attorney will have to answer that one.

I would say that at the hearing he should be straight up and describe the situation... however with the zero tolerance, they might say he should not have been there in the first place!

good luck!

LeeS269
07-29-2006, 04:59 PM
It is extremely important to get him a good lawyer and fight hard. Zero tolerance isn't justice.

mrsdragoness
07-29-2006, 07:03 PM
It is extremely important to get him a good lawyer and fight hard. Zero tolerance isn't justice.

boy do I agree with that Lee!!

MicheleCJr
07-29-2006, 07:09 PM
Ok one question..........if there is a bb gun in the house that the parolee lives at can they get in trouble? Just wondering cause we are having someone hold the for us until we know all the rules.

mrsdragoness
07-29-2006, 07:27 PM
I believe that a BB gun is considered a weapon so you probably can't have it in the house... BUT... I'd like to know how a PO feels about that question!

MicheleCJr
07-29-2006, 07:30 PM
I would acutally like a cut and dry list of things that are considered to be a weapon. I have read where a parolee lived in a home that had a baseball bat....he ended up with a pv. This is scary since I have 4 kids ranging in ages 8-18, one of which plays softball, one that used to play with his paintball gun...I am sure you get the idea. I have heard that water guns aren't allowed.

LeeS269
07-29-2006, 07:46 PM
They usually won't give you a "complete" cut and dry list.. because they don't like being pinned down and therefore having to follow rules.

The way most of these "weapons" clauses are worded it could be virtually anything! A spatula can be a weapon if you're pissed off enough!

MicheleCJr
07-29-2006, 07:49 PM
The way most of these "weapons" clauses are worded it could be virtually anything! A spatula can be a weapon if you're pissed off enough!

LOL isn't that the truth....a shoe also :eek:

starting over
07-29-2006, 08:39 PM
True. In reality there is nothing that could NOT be a weapon. Shoes, spatula's, pens, spoons, brooms, mops, plates, cups, socks...think about it, they can get you coming and going.

deb
07-29-2006, 10:55 PM
I had Zach throw out all water guns and his paint ball guns before we went for the first parole hearing... It's better to err on the side of caution in my opinion....

Deb

studentofamelia
08-01-2006, 07:30 AM
His PO told me that it is not allowed if it looks in any way like a gun or if it launches a projectile (bullet, pellet, bb, etc.) of any kind. He told me of someone who had carved a gun shape out of a bar of soap and it was considered a PV.

Also, it is considered a PV:
even if it was loaded or empty
even if he didn't even touch it
even if he didn't cock it or aim it

He had a baseball bat and some escrima sticks for karate in his house and his PO had no problem with them.

mombert
08-02-2006, 01:43 PM
My son is looking at parole from a military confinment facility. What exactly is the zero tolarance for weapons. My husband and other son's are big hunters and we would need to make arangments on where to store the bow's, shotguns, etc.

studentofamelia
08-03-2006, 04:36 AM
I am not allowed to post urls yet, but here is the address. Paste it into your browser and replace "xxx" with "www".

xxx.michigan.gov/gov/0,1607,7-168-23442 21974-97314--M 2004 7,00.html

Here is an excerpt:
The state is creating a new, five-year “gun continuance” that will apply to the 17,000 prisoners on parole in Michigan. Under that policy, if a parolee is found in possession of a gun or associating with someone possessing a firearm, they will be returned to prison to continue their sentence for five years or for the remainder of their maximum sentence.

Also, every parolee found in possession of a gun or found associating with individuals who possess guns will be referred to the county prosecutor or U.S. Attorney for swift and appropriate prosecution.

The 57,000 felons on probation in Michigan will also be subject to the new zero tolerance policy on guns. Under the policy, if a probationer is found possessing a firearm, probation agents will recommend to the courts the maximum penalty allowable by law.

MrJustice
08-29-2006, 02:25 PM
I hate to sound mean but offenders know when they are released that there are certain rules which are not to be played with. The rule concerning guns is one of them and for a perfectly good reason. If the Board accepts you nephew's motivation for violating the rule, they may well reduce the amount of penalty. Nevertheless, the rule was clearly violated and, sorry again, but your nephew knew it. Let me put this in another way. Late at night a parolee sees a close friend breaking and entering a home/business whatever. Out of concern for his friend, he enters the premises himself obstensibly to convince him to leave. The police arrive. Are they going to believe that parolee's story. Highly unlikely. Will the Board? Again, highly unlikely. Unfortunately, when one is on parole, one cannot afford, to put it bluntly, to be his brother's keeper. That's sad? Yes but reality.

On another related note, I would have serious concern in relation to your nephew's commitment to the rules in the first place. What is he doing hanging afound someone with a BB gun? Either he's committed to obeying the rules and getting his life in order or he is not. I would suggest, in view of his association, that he is not and I base that opinion on 26 years working within the criminal justice system as correctional officer, case management officer, parole officer and now criminal lawyer. Time he grew up and start taking responsiblity for his actions. Next time, hopefully he'll think before he leaps. Hate to sound so negative but it is reality.

studentofamelia
08-29-2006, 05:25 PM
Thanks for your post, MrJustice.

I agree that he needs to take responsibility for his actions. But there are Judges who get paid to assess whether a rule was violated and to what degree it should be punished regardless of what the police believe.

In this case, due to "zero tolerance" that expertise is being ignored and 5 years or more can be taken from my nephew's life - at taxpayer expense.

Although I believe he needs to face some consequences, I don't believe that he is a threat to public safety and I don't agree that these consequences fit this violation.

If anyone can give me some advice on how to make it come out more favorable, I'd be grateful.

StacysWar030
09-02-2006, 06:36 PM
I would get a lawyer. I have to agree, 5 yrs does not fit this violation whatsoever :(

Stacy

k&dchoice
09-02-2006, 09:19 PM
My husband was caught with a gun two weeks after he was paroled and he was charged with Felony Firearms and a weapons/firearm possesion and he was sentanced to 2 yrs on the Felony firearm conviction and 1-10 on the weapons charge. He only has to do 3 yrs until his ERD so not always do they charge you with the mandatory 5 yrs sentance. The real question now is if he will even have a chance when it comes to a parole hearing around his ERD :(

StacysWar030
09-04-2006, 08:13 AM
I can tell you that a guy at Cooper Street also was charged only 2 yrs for his conviction after parole, come his parole hearing they flopped him the other 3 yrs AND added 6 months to that. So they may not sentence them right away, but it will get them in the end :(

I'm not puting this out htere to discourage anyone near as much as I would just like you all prepared for the possibilities. Nothing is worse then totally setting our hopes high, just to be dashed in an instance. HOPE is ALWAYS a good thing, it's all we have. But reality can kick us if we're not at least aware of it.

KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!

Stacy

nikschram
11-12-2010, 08:56 PM
Hi. My nephew has come up against the Michigan zero tolerance weapons policy for parolees.

He was with a friend who had a bb gun. He took the gun away from his friend to keep him from threating someone with it. He has now been charged with a parole violation and is facing the 5 year minimum sentence defined by this policy, which was initiated in 2004.

Has anyone had experience with this violation? Is there a good approach to take at his parole hearing? Can it be appealed? Will he have the opportunity for parole in less than 5 years?

Thanks!


I am dealing with a similar situation. My fiance' is out on parole after spending 10 years in prison for robbing a gas station at the age of 17. I don't think 10 years was a nessacary for a dumb decision he made as a 17 year old kid. But he did it, and came out of prison an amazing man. He definatly paid for his mistakes, he learned his lesson and is ready to live his life. It hasn't been easy for him making the transition sence this is his first time in the real world as an adult. He hasn't received any guidence from his P.O. as far as counciling, job skills programs, or any re-entry programs, I know these programs are available but have never been offered to my fiance'. He took it upon himself to seek out counsiling on his own and enrolled himself in school. He clearly wants to make something of himself and recover from the 10 years he lost. His P.O. came to our home on a random nighthawk sweep, during the sweep he found an old broken toy cap gun in a "junk drawer". We are living in his mother's home right now who has several grand kids and come to visit often. I was cleaning up after the kids stayed for the weekend, I found the broken toy and was going to throw it away sence it was broken but wanted to ask my fiance's mother before I did, so I threw it in the "junk drawer" because she wasn't home at the time. I can honestly say that at no point did it cross my mind that my fiance' could be sent back to prison for a broken kids toy. I never mentioned it to him so he had no idea it was even in the house or in the drawer. Now he's facing losing another 5 years of his life for this toy gun that he knew nothing about. He has never violated his parole the 15 months he was on it prior to the sweep. We hired him a lawyer, explained the circumstances, and he was told by his lawyer that the parole board probably wouldn't believe me and if he doesn't get 5 years he'd be lucky. I can't believe that this is how our justice system really works. It's so sad and frustrating to watch a loved one going through this. Now the next 5 years of his life is in the hands of 10 people who know nothing about him except for his criminal record. It's just not right and it's not justice. Any advice would be greatly appriciated.
Thank you,
Frustrated & confused:angry::confused:

nikschram
11-12-2010, 09:17 PM
There are some serious flaws in our justice system when a nonviolent man who poses no threat to society can be sentenced to 5 years in prison for having a toy cap gun in his home. This is mearly a technicality, there are dangerous criminals who belong behind bars. This seems like a huge waste of our tax dollars and much needed space in an overcrowded prison. Not to mention 5 years of an amazing human beings life.
Lord please touch those 10 souls who hold 5 years of Jacob's life in their hands. Let them see the truth, show mercy and let justice be served!
Amen

studentofamelia
11-13-2010, 05:59 AM
I'm so sorry this happened! And I'm sorry to say, the lawyer is probably correct. We were flopped even though his PO advised against it.

I've learned the hard way that no one in the correctional system is inclined to investigate anything. They go by the words on the piece of paper and do not use their brains. But this is not because they are stupid - its because of two factors, in my opinion... they are often given too many cases to handle which does not allow time to fully assess and understand the situations, and they are so worried about privacy laws that they do not post case-specific information where families can see it, resulting in many time-consuming phone calls from worried family members, further shrinking the time available to address each situation.

In some ways, living with a parolee is more difficult (although still preferable!) than when they were incarcerated. When a parolee lives with you, you all have to be conscious of dumb gun-shaped toys, rush home from a movie or visit with friends to make it in time for curfew and no more cooking with wine.
Since I'm not the one who chose to commit the crime, I'm sometimes resentful of the emotional and financial hardships and the restrictions on my freedom!

Best wishes to you and your loved one in this trying time.

sisnik
11-13-2010, 11:02 AM
Honey if that was me and my man and I found that toy gun, it would have been rid of right then and there. There is no way a toy would have trumped what I know about being on parole or we would have had to go on parole else where. I think that ppl need to discuss these parole rules with whom ever they are going to parole to so it is cut and clear that their life is being watched, for real. I hope things work out for you guys and try to keep your head up!!!


sisnik

RAJustice
11-13-2010, 06:34 PM
Honey if that was me and my man and I found that toy gun, it would have been rid of right then and there. There is no way a toy would have trumped what I know about being on parole or we would have had to go on parole else where. I think that ppl need to discuss these parole rules with whom ever they are going to parole to so it is cut and clear that their life is being watched, for real. I hope things work out for you guys and try to keep your head up!!!


sisnik

I agree that throwing it away would have been the right thing to do but can also understand how hard she was trying to be a gracious guest in another woman's home.

I hope everything works out for the young man involved.
RA

ilovecharles
11-15-2010, 10:12 AM
I am dealing with a similar situation. My fiance' is out on parole after spending 10 years in prison for robbing a gas station at the age of 17. I don't think 10 years was a nessacary for a dumb decision he made as a 17 year old kid. But he did it, and came out of prison an amazing man. He definatly paid for his mistakes, he learned his lesson and is ready to live his life. It hasn't been easy for him making the transition sence this is his first time in the real world as an adult. He hasn't received any guidence from his P.O. as far as counciling, job skills programs, or any re-entry programs, I know these programs are available but have never been offered to my fiance'. He took it upon himself to seek out counsiling on his own and enrolled himself in school. He clearly wants to make something of himself and recover from the 10 years he lost. His P.O. came to our home on a random nighthawk sweep, during the sweep he found an old broken toy cap gun in a "junk drawer". We are living in his mother's home right now who has several grand kids and come to visit often. I was cleaning up after the kids stayed for the weekend, I found the broken toy and was going to throw it away sence it was broken but wanted to ask my fiance's mother before I did, so I threw it in the "junk drawer" because she wasn't home at the time. I can honestly say that at no point did it cross my mind that my fiance' could be sent back to prison for a broken kids toy. I never mentioned it to him so he had no idea it was even in the house or in the drawer. Now he's facing losing another 5 years of his life for this toy gun that he knew nothing about. He has never violated his parole the 15 months he was on it prior to the sweep. We hired him a lawyer, explained the circumstances, and he was told by his lawyer that the parole board probably wouldn't believe me and if he doesn't get 5 years he'd be lucky. I can't believe that this is how our justice system really works. It's so sad and frustrating to watch a loved one going through this. Now the next 5 years of his life is in the hands of 10 people who know nothing about him except for his criminal record. It's just not right and it's not justice. Any advice would be greatly appriciated.
Thank you,
Frustrated & confused:angry::confused:


PM Me. Im very familiar with this type of story

Never Forget
11-17-2010, 03:14 PM
Okay I am going to raise alot of ire here with this. But I am going to chime in with my .02

I would get a lawyer. I have to agree, 5 yrs does not fit this violation whatsoever

What does a parolee NOT understand about Michigan Felony Firearm laws? When I was paroled, my PO made it UBER, SUPER painfully clear what the results of ANY posession, having in the same car, in my home, etc... would be.

Further before you even get out. Your ARUS or RUM does the same thing. They sit you down and go over the yellow papers VERY CAREFULLY, reading to you everything, having you sign, initial....

Parolees KNOW they cannot TOUCH, have in their very presence a gun, BB gun, water pistol. Silly laws yes, zero tolerence sucks.. yes... But you know the law, the rules. Yes 5 years is a VERY long time for any offense where the gun isnt real, or the gun was not "used" however we all know the rules. Yet Paolees violate it all the time. Families need to be angry at the parolee for violating the law.

Now I will save this one caveat on what I just typed. There are silly situations where a broken cap gun is in a junk drawer, or a squirt gun in a kids closet. Yes those are stupid, and the law makers I do not believe meant for men to go to prison for 5 years for that.

Saving these situations, the family needs to not be angry at the system, they need to be angry at the parolee for doing something, or placing themselves in a position where they could put their families through hell again.

There will always be situations where a parolee is screwed over. There will always be situations where the parolee will be treated with hateful injustice. Laws need to be changed, and laws need to be updated. However I dont see that happening for a very long time.

jlzkmm
11-17-2010, 04:17 PM
Never Forget...I agree with you totally. I do have a question, which may be totally stupid on my part, but what about visiting. Let's say for instance...my guy will not be paroling to me. But let's say he comes to my home for the night or the weekend. Would I have to take all of my son's toy guns and lock them up in a shed outside? Would that be enough? Would I have to take them off my premises to another person's home while he was there? I'm just curious as to how far this rule goes. If I did, I would. But I'm just curious on this one... Thanks!

JJSTDS
11-17-2010, 06:40 PM
JLZ. They all need to go. Off the property. I'm not sure about hunting bows but I think they have to go too. Not worth the risk..

jlzkmm
11-17-2010, 08:37 PM
I wasn't sure if visiting someone's home counted too. Good to know. If he ever gets out and comes for a visit I will send the weapons with the kid to his aunt's...the catholic nun's home! LMFAO!! :p

walkermom
11-18-2010, 07:02 AM
jlz, a parolee cannot be "around" any type of weapon, including toy guns/pistols, toy swords, etc..
The only exception is kitchen knives.
We have been preparing for my son to get his parole, hopefully soon, by talking to his younger brother about what can be in the house and not be in the house.
So we have packed everything up and removed it all from the house.
In fact my incarcerated son, who is not yet paroled, told me about the toy swords.
I'm not taking ANY chances and neither will he. He will not visit anyones house if they have any type of real or fake weapon, or any type of alcohol. He told me that after 11 years, he doesn't want to risk going back because of something so STUPID as that.

misshim138
11-18-2010, 08:13 AM
My understanding is that they can't go to a home that has guns, etc. Even if we don't know the person/people have them. Apparently we have to ask everyone before going to a house if they have any weapons, guns, etc.

We have gone through our house several times, just to make sure we don't have anything that can be considered a weapon. My problem is, so many things can be a weapon, so what do I do - assume it is a weapon and get rid of it? I know kitchen knives are okay. But what isn't? No one seems to have a nice list for us to go by. Guess that would be too easy.

walkermom
11-18-2010, 08:13 AM
PS, I believe this includes hunting bows as well.
Here is an excerpt from the Policy Directive for Parole Case Management...
All parolees are prohibited as a condition of parole from being in the unauthorized company of a person the parolee knows to possess a firearm. The Regional Administrator or designee may authorize a parolee to be in the company of a person the parolee knows to possess a firearm only if the person is a verified employee of a criminal justice or law enforcement agency and is required as part of that employment to carry a firearm, provided the firearm is either in the physical possession of the person or stored in a locked location whenever the parolee is in the person’s company; however, a parolee may be authorized to reside with that person only if the person is a verified employee of a law enforcement agency and meets all of the remaining criteria, unless otherwise approved by the FOA Deputy Director.
Authorization shall be granted for no longer than six month renewable periods. The authorization shall be withdrawn whenever there has been a change in the circumstances which led to the authorization.
Authorization and any withdrawal of that authorization shall be documented on the Parole Condition Authorization form (CFJ-429) and in OMNI case notes.


It is available on the corrections website in the policy directives area. http://www.michigan.gov/documents/corrections/06_04_130_324587_7.pdf

walkermom
11-18-2010, 08:21 AM
My understanding is that they can't go to a home that has guns, etc. Even if we don't know the person/people have them. Apparently we have to ask everyone before going to a house if they have any weapons, guns, etc.

We have gone through our house several times, just to make sure we don't have anything that can be considered a weapon. My problem is, so many things can be a weapon, so what do I do - assume it is a weapon and get rid of it? I know kitchen knives are okay. But what isn't? No one seems to have a nice list for us to go by. Guess that would be too easy.

Your best bet is to do 2 things.
1. Discuss with current PA about what they would consider a weapon and try and get it in writing if possible. Meaning how are they going to enforce that portion of the parole restriction.
2. Just do what you are doing. The restrictions for parole are for the parole period only. After that the main state law is the only applicable thing you have to worry about. If you have questions regarding that, you may want to discuss with an attorney.

ilovecharles
11-19-2010, 01:31 PM
Your best bet is to do 2 things.
1. Discuss with current PA about what they would consider a weapon and try and get it in writing if possible. Meaning how are they going to enforce that portion of the parole restriction. When a parolee comes home things that are weapons are but are not limited to: ANYTHING WITH A TRIGGER OR SIMILIAR TO A GUN INCLUDING FACISIMLIE FIREARMS ***THIS INCLUDES SQUIRT GUNS, BB GUNS, PAINTBALL GUNS***they ALL MUST GO(there is now a pamphlet available for parolees and their families to have it in print upon release)
2. Just do what you are doing. The restrictions for parole are for the parole period only. After that the main state law is the only applicable thing you have to worry about. If you have questions regarding that, you may want to discuss with an attorney.
Our PO told me that we are BOTH on parole right now. I can not possess anything he cant possess. There is no liquor, no guns, no swords, no bows, no arrows (even indian heads NOTHING)

I will type up the pamphlet specifically.

JLZ-as far as visiting...I asked his PO specifically (all my extended family hunt) she said "If you think visiting your uncle (who owns multiple firearms) is worth the RISK OF ANOTHER 60 MONTH FLOP then risk it, i however do not suggest it"

Of course, due to our circumstance, I am very sensitive and cautious about this specific guideline. I'd get rid of everything and i dont mean put it in a safe. get rid of it.

sucker4mylove
11-19-2010, 09:07 PM
i find this not only discouraging, but disgusting. basically, if my man ever gets parole i will have to go through the massive amount of junk on the four floors of my house - basement to attic - and search for anything that could be CONSTRUED by some paranoid person as a weapon?

i take it this includes the corroded toy guns i dug up in the yard? how about all the old shotgun shells & casings i have found? indian arrowheads? spearpoints? my property has been inhabited by humans for hundreds of years. if you stick a shovel in the ground, you will find an artifact.

i do not physically punish my cats (or any animal). cats are independant creatures & sometimes "forget" what NO means - so i remind them, with my voice backed up by a water pistol or a plant mister/sprayer. the plant mister fires a projectile. WTH. you want to take away my humane version of kitty control.

someone needs to draw a line SOMEWHERE. our guys in prison are learning many inventive ways to make a weapon of just about anything. did i hear correctly that inmates in the hole are only allowed the inside (ink-filled) part of a pen, not the barrel of the pen, which could be used as a weapon? ok, quick, everyone, remove all pens from your house - they might be a PV!

jlzkmm
11-19-2010, 11:30 PM
ilovecharles...Thanks. I totally agree with you. I am like sucker4mylove it is retarded...especially for a visit to someone else's home. I could see an issue with an actual weapon (real firearms), but toy guns, swords, etc. are crazy. And I thought it was crazy even before I knew anyone in prison... But I'll do what I have to do when the time comes...or we'll just go to a hotel. (wink, wink) Sorry..I'm slap-happy tonight...

ilovecharles
11-20-2010, 10:00 AM
i take it this includes the corroded toy guns i dug up in the yard? how about all the old shotgun shells & casings i have found? indian arrowheads? spearpoints? my property has been inhabited by humans for hundreds of years. if you stick a shovel in the ground, you will find an artifact.


Yes get rid of it all.

Unless rules change before he comes home, even the squirt gun you get your cat with has to go. I do have a spray bottle in my home (neon red) for my cats and that can stay but it can not be in the shape/form of a gun AT ALL.

All four stories..you want him to stay home when he does finally get parole, don't F it up like We DID and loose 5 years of your lives together!!!

MomTo5
11-20-2010, 12:40 PM
The parole officer made it very clear to us that you can not even visit a home where there are firearms of any kind. They can not just lock it in a shed out back, it has to be completely removed from the property. That means no holidays with relatives who may have a firearm either. Yes, an orange and purple squirt gun counts! I threw away ever toy gun my kids had including all of their squirt guns and we tried to never be in anyone's house that had a weapon of any kind. Not worth the risk. Is it a hassle? Yes. Is it stupid my kids couldn't have a stupid squirt gun to play with in the summer? Yes. I sure did it anyway and was as careful as possible. I wasn't going to try to fight the law when we were too busy wanting him to be off parole.

I must also say that I agree with NeverForget that it was explained very well before and after release. Pamphlets were given out as well so you could refresh your memory if there were questions. I asked questions like "can we go to a picnic in someone's yard that might have weapons if we don't go in the house?" No. It may be restrictive but it isn't forever.

sucker4mylove
11-20-2010, 06:47 PM
[QUOTE=ilovecharles;5791346Yes get rid of it all.[/QUOTE]

unfortunately, for my guy, it IS for the rest of his life. some free country. i get to live in a virtual prison because i had the bad luck to fall in love with someone who was convicted?

i guess i'll have to tell my man to not set foot on any neighbor's property here - they all have shotguns. rural. my 84-year-old next-door neighbor has herself quite a little arsenal.

QUESTION: what about businesses? would he have to ask before entering a place of business if they have weapons on the property? for example, the other day i went to pick up horse blankets from a saddle-maker, Amish or Mennonite. i know some Mennonites hunt. can i not take him to the k-mart, which sells shotguns? that would probably rule out ALL the big-box stores in my area.

MomTo5
11-20-2010, 09:54 PM
I'm sorry I had no idea some people were on lifetime parole. I thought two or three years was as long as parole ever was. That would be difficult although still better than prison.

We were not told stores were an issue although I wouldn't go to a store that is specifically a guns and ammo type store. We did go to the big box stores just didn't hang out in aisles with weapons. I'll admit I didn't think to ask about that.

It ruled out most of our friends, family and neighbors as well. My opinion, and I'm not a parole officer, is if you are going into a business you don't need to worry. If you are going into their house, worry.

My though is you never know what kind of crazy thing could happen and you could be caught someplace. You never know who you made angry twenty years ago who is still mad even though they don't remember why and know he's on parole and call the police just because they can. It is horrible!

LisaW
11-22-2010, 09:08 AM
yep my son had two super soakers. they are HUGE and brightly colored...they had to go.

tballa
11-23-2010, 01:44 PM
As a person who had a loved one parole to our home (OUIL 3rd), I also had to make sure that there was no alcohol in the house. Someone said it right when it was said that we are also on parole when they are (if they live with us). We also have to abide by the rules. It may be for awhile but if you want them to stay out of prison, rules have to be followed by all. Make sure family members are also aware of the rules!!

ilovecharles
11-23-2010, 02:20 PM
As a person who had a loved one parole to our home (OUIL 3rd), I also had to make sure that there was no alcohol in the house. Someone said it right when it was said that we are also on parole when they are (if they live with us). We also have to abide by the rules. It may be for awhile but if you want them to stay out of prison, rules have to be followed by all. Make sure family members are also aware of the rules!!


That would be me and that would be VERY true!!!

question102
11-30-2010, 09:54 AM
My boyfriend is sitting in prison for a gun violation while on parole. He didnt know there was a weapon present in the vehicle under the backseat that he was fixing and test driving and he's been there just over 3 years now... not the best news for you but thought I'd offer the information. And were not expecting to hear anything till the 3 1/2 to 4 year mark. So about another 3-10 months till we hear anything about possible release. I think that there should be a law that owners of a gun have to sign a form that states there is a weapon present and they disclosed this information to person(s) working on their car or home. So if the mechanic or contractor is on parole they have the chance to deny the job and refer them to someone else. And if said person does not disclose the fact that a weapon is present they should be held accountable for endangerment and failure to disclose. Cause this is rediculous my boyfriend put the past behind him and was working his butt off so we could start our lives by having money for a home and start a family. And because some jerk-off hides their gun in their car instead of locked in their home while having work done to their vehicle and not releasing that information were paying the price.... our life has been on hold and tragically turned upside down. My boyfriend is sitting in hell watching people get stabbed, and eating plates of nasty potatoes and I'm working myself to death. Where is the justice???? Not in Michigan... not in this government... their just a bunch of legal crooks.... sry had to rant. But yea it's been a long horrible road for us and I hope you have better luck.

jlzkmm
11-30-2010, 09:17 PM
My boyfriend is sitting in prison for a gun violation while on parole. He didnt know there was a weapon present in the vehicle under the backseat that he was fixing and test driving and he's been there just over 3 years now... not the best news for you but thought I'd offer the information. And were not expecting to hear anything till the 3 1/2 to 4 year mark. So about another 3-10 months till we hear anything about possible release. I think that there should be a law that owners of a gun have to sign a form that states there is a weapon present and they disclosed this information to person(s) working on their car or home. So if the mechanic or contractor is on parole they have the chance to deny the job and refer them to someone else. And if said person does not disclose the fact that a weapon is present they should be held accountable for endangerment and failure to disclose. Cause this is rediculous my boyfriend put the past behind him and was working his butt off so we could start our lives by having money for a home and start a family. And because some jerk-off hides their gun in their car instead of locked in their home while having work done to their vehicle and not releasing that information were paying the price.... our life has been on hold and tragically turned upside down. My boyfriend is sitting in hell watching people get stabbed, and eating plates of nasty potatoes and I'm working myself to death. Where is the justice???? Not in Michigan... not in this government... their just a bunch of legal crooks.... sry had to rant. But yea it's been a long horrible road for us and I hope you have better luck.

I disagree. I think there needs to be an overhaul done to the laws governing parole and probation violations. The idea that every single felon shouldn't be allowed to be in someone else's home where a broken toy gun or water gun is, is a waste of my tax dollars and my time. This is some of the most retarded stuff I've heard of or dealt with yet. I'm quite sure this was never the intent behind the rule. But I also don't think being a felon should make it impossible for you to own a real hand gun in your life...JMO. Being in a home where a gun is or working on a car that has a gun in it doesn't make a person more predisposed in using the weapon and committing a crime just because they were convicted of a felony at some point in their life. While on parole or probation I think they should be required to prove that the gun is the violator's...show me some finger prints people, put the gun in the violator's hands...if you can't do that it doesn't pass the smell test and therefore you shouldn't be allowed to violate someone on it. I think it goes beyond the scope of the reasoning behind the rule. It is senseless, worthless, and just another way for the State to keep people down...

ilovecharles
12-03-2010, 10:53 AM
I disagree. I think there needs to be an overhaul done to the laws governing parole and probation violations. The idea that every single felon shouldn't be allowed to be in someone else's home where a broken toy gun or water gun is, is a waste of my tax dollars and my time. This is some of the most retarded stuff I've heard of or dealt with yet. I'm quite sure this was never the intent behind the rule. But I also don't think being a felon should make it impossible for you to own a real hand gun in your life...JMO. Being in a home where a gun is or working on a car that has a gun in it doesn't make a person more predisposed in using the weapon and committing a crime just because they were convicted of a felony at some point in their life. While on parole or probation I think they should be required to prove that the gun is the violator's...show me some finger prints people, put the gun in the violator's hands...if you can't do that it doesn't pass the smell test and therefore you shouldn't be allowed to violate someone on it. I think it goes beyond the scope of the reasoning behind the rule. It is senseless, worthless, and just another way for the State to keep people down...

Even if a civilian (like myself) COULD fight this charge it wouldn't happen because the definition of "area of control" is not defined accurately. In our circumstance, we had only been together a few months and his "area of control" was my entire apartment. Legally, he didn't have any "area of control" (his name wasn't on my lease, he wasn't squatting at my apartment, his address was legally where he resided which was way different than mine) it didn't matter. None of it mattered. And parolee's lost ability to challenge PB decisions in regards to revocations and denials. I also had my statements purchasing my bb gun YEARS before I even knew my husband was ALIVE. it's wierd, creepy, stupid etc. The only good that came out of this WHOLE event is that they NOW reassess parole violators with gun cases 36 months into the 60 month sentence. it started with us. We were incarcerated 47 months by the time legislation allowed breathing room for these violations.

jlzkmm
12-03-2010, 11:24 PM
Even if a civilian (like myself) COULD fight this charge it wouldn't happen because the definition of "area of control" is not defined accurately. In our circumstance, we had only been together a few months and his "area of control" was my entire apartment. Legally, he didn't have any "area of control" (his name wasn't on my lease, he wasn't squatting at my apartment, his address was legally where he resided which was way different than mine) it didn't matter. None of it mattered. And parolee's lost ability to challenge PB decisions in regards to revocations and denials. I also had my statements purchasing my bb gun YEARS before I even knew my husband was ALIVE. it's wierd, creepy, stupid etc. The only good that came out of this WHOLE event is that they NOW reassess parole violators with gun cases 36 months into the 60 month sentence. it started with us. We were incarcerated 47 months by the time legislation allowed breathing room for these violations.

ilovecharles...I'm referring to locations outside of where the parolee lives. I don't believe it should be an "area of control" standard but a possession standard. If I'm a parolee and I go to a friend's home and that friend owns a gun and regardless if I know whether that person is a gun owner that firearm is not in my possession. It's a BS technical violation and doesn't address the problem it was created to address. The fact that someone who is on parole for a drunk driving charge shouldn't be able to be violated because there is a toy gun in the home. The fact that the person could be is BS. I understand it happens and I understand that even as a non-felon it is technically un-fightable (non-felons have no standing to challenge it), but it doesn't make it any less stupid and useless. But since I don't support the idea or the possibility of charging a felon in possession either. But that is just me. There is no casual connection in my mind... I'm just saying...

Never Forget
12-11-2010, 09:20 PM
Being on parole is not being free. Being on parole is just a less strict form of incarceration. You are still under the mandate and control of the MDOC. If you are on parole you have been given a chance, a privelage...

I see men all of hte time KNOWING they cannot be around ANYTHING like a gun. Yet they do and they complain when get hammered. Families need to not defend their paroled family member, they need ot be angry with them for doing this stuff.

I agree the laws are OVER strict, I mean come on a super soaker... A water pistol.... A single shell or bullett... HOWEVER SAYING THAT!

You KNOW, you UNDERSTAND from before your release the terms. Decline parole if you dont want to follow them. I was on parole for two flipping years, and I made HUGE pains to follow it. Yes it sucks, yes it is unfair...

However we who went to prison were unfair for what we did to our family members, and it sucked fort YOU the family member to have to wait for us....

sucker4mylove
12-13-2010, 02:45 PM
never forget,

i understand your point. however, many of us feel a huge unfairness because WE are required to be on parole as well, and we did not commit a crime.

it also depends on context. i no longer have my recurve target bow, but i guess it would count as a weapon even though it takes about 15 minutes to assemble properly. i never considered it a weapon. in my life experience, a BB gun is NOT considered a weapon! (unless you are a squirrel or a chipmonk.) many people would not think of having a firearm like a BB in the house - for many others, it is standard equipment.

i think the problem here is the difference between the "intent" and the "letter" of the law. it is a matter of interpretation. many of us take our First Amendment rights as non-negotiable. will the next step be for the Parole Officer to go through my rather extensive library of books looking for anything that might be construed as porn? that is my fear; and that is why i am so adamant about things like this.

MomTo5
12-13-2010, 06:36 PM
never forget,

i understand your point. however, many of us feel a huge unfairness because WE are required to be on parole as well, and we did not commit a crime.

it also depends on context. i no longer have my recurve target bow, but i guess it would count as a weapon even though it takes about 15 minutes to assemble properly. i never considered it a weapon. in my life experience, a BB gun is NOT considered a weapon! (unless you are a squirrel or a chipmonk.) many people would not think of having a firearm like a BB in the house - for many others, it is standard equipment.

i think the problem here is the difference between the "intent" and the "letter" of the law. it is a matter of interpretation. many of us take our First Amendment rights as non-negotiable. will the next step be for the Parole Officer to go through my rather extensive library of books looking for anything that might be construed as porn? that is my fear; and that is why i am so adamant about things like this.


You may feel like we have to be on parole too but we don't. It is a choice we make. We do not have to live with the person on parole. We can have our own weapon. We can choose not invite them into our home. We can legally split up, divorce, whatever we choose. We do not HAVE to be with them. There is no law saying we must wait for them while they are in prison or stay with them when they are out. Many of us CHOOSE to. I chose to. I got rid of anything that might have been considered a weapon. I lived with the curfew too. I did what I wanted to do. Not what I had to do but what I wanted to do.

When parole was over the kids got toy guns and squirt guns as well as bow and arrows. My husband can legally bow hunt. Does it suck? Sure. Did he bring this on himself? Yes.

I fully believe in the first amendment. We should be able to say what we want, read what we want, worship as we want. I also believe in the second amendment being the right to bear arms. I also understand that when people commit a crime they are choosing to give some of these rights up. There are cracks in the system, actually bigger than cracks, when innocent people are convicted, etc. but right now it is what we have. We can certainly work to change it but it all takes time and unfortunately we have other people working to change things in the opposite way. We have people who want to fully take away our right to bear arms. I don't think I should use a weapon to rob and murder someone but if I want to hunt for food for my family or protect myself and my family I should be able to. That's just my opinion though and many don't agree.

ilovecharles
12-14-2010, 11:13 PM
Let's not loose sight of the OP in this thread ok? Bring it back on topic at hand Zero gun tolerance police for parolees and probationers.

Thanks!


ilovecharles

RAJustice
12-15-2010, 10:40 AM
Let's not loose sight of the OP in this thread ok? Bring it back on topic at hand Zero gun tolerance police for parolees and probationers.

Thanks!


ilovecharles

OK bringing it back to the subject - the zero tolerance policy is being pushed to the extreme and wasting tax payer dollars - period - According to gov elect Snyder we need a corrections system in which decisions are made by possible and historic outcome. How does spending 30k a yr to lock someone up for having a toy gun provide any level of safety for the citizens of MI.

And beyond that I don't like the whole "It sucked buckets of olive pits when we went through it and I want everyone else to have to suck buckets of olive pits too" reasoning. Tell me how it helps anyone! anyone at all!

Five reasons ZERO Tolerance is stupid.......
1. Zero tolerance can hurt the victim

2. Zero tolerance policies can take away a parole officer's autonomy to settle minor incidents

3. Zero tolerance policies can be discriminatory to those with special needs.

4. Zero tolerance policies don't take age, maturity or life experience into account.

5. Zero tolerance policies can punish the well-intended.

sucker4mylove
12-15-2010, 07:57 PM
OK bringing it back to the subject - the zero tolerance policy is being pushed to the extreme and wasting tax payer dollars - period - According to gov elect Snyder we need a corrections system in which decisions are made by possible and historic outcome. How does spending 30k a yr to lock someone up for having a toy gun provide any level of safety for the citizens of MI.

And beyond that I don't like the whole "It sucked buckets of olive pits when we went through it and I want everyone else to have to suck buckets of olive pits too" reasoning. Tell me how it helps anyone! anyone at all!

Five reasons ZERO Tolerance is stupid.......
1. Zero tolerance can hurt the victim

2. Zero tolerance policies can take away a parole officer's autonomy to settle minor incidents

3. Zero tolerance policies can be discriminatory to those with special needs.

4. Zero tolerance policies don't take age, maturity or life experience into account.

5. Zero tolerance policies can punish the well-intended.

RA Justice,

you are RIGHT ON. i agree 100%.

kae073
12-28-2010, 08:19 PM
Thank you RA!

Zero tolerance for guns flopped my loved one back into the prison system for 24 months after being sucessfully on parole for 5 years straight without 1 missed report date, maintained employment, and not one dirty drop ever!!

Zero tolerance over looked taking "age, maturity, and life experience" into account. It over looked allowing his parole officer to say to him "Hey dummy, you have been on perfect behavior for 5 yrs.. I'm pretty sure that is not a good idea." And zero tolerance blocked and prohibited those prosecuting from seeing what his intensions were.

So yes, as everyone has concurred if you are caught with a gun or anything looking like one (even a video game controller) you are sent back to MDOC. No one ever beats the parole board in a parole violation hearing regarding a gun...ever!

Never Forget
12-30-2010, 12:17 AM
Going back to something that is being over looked here.

1. I agree the "zero tolerence" law is "too intolerent" However it IS the law.

2. Parolees KNOW the ramifications of their actions in regards to this law.

3. Bad law, good law, strict law, whatever... A parolee knows....

So in the end, it is not the fault of the Board, the PO, the judge, or the prosecutor... It is the parolee's fault. There are many laws and rules when on parole, and yes kae073 no one ever does beat the board.

Also their are reasons parolees cant even be around squirt guns, as they can be used as a weapon to threaten and committ crimes. Laws are laws, and parolees have to be even more mindful of certain ones.... Sucks yes... Law needs revisiting yes... Is this ever going to happen. No... Not in this climate in Michigan...

RAJustice
12-30-2010, 09:04 AM
So in the end, it is not the fault of the Board, the PO, the judge, or the prosecutor... It is the parolee's fault.

There is plenty of fault to go around. Expecting an inmate to be aware of everything in his area of control is very different than expecting a parolee to be aware of everything in a home and workplace. These places are going to be frequented by people who have never been incarcerated and have no reason to be aware of the conditions expected of a parolee. You already know how hard it is to effect the behavior of a cellmate and yet you expect a guy to be able to boss his wife, mom, sister, dad, brothers, employer, customers........ into compliance with the requirements of a parole officer who may be completely neurotic.

Sucks yes... Law needs revisiting yes... Is this ever going to happen. No... Not in this climate in Michigan...

No, never, not here, not now, blah Why are you giving up?

ilovecharles
12-30-2010, 04:30 PM
Going back to something that is being over looked here.

1. I agree the "zero tolerence" law is "too intolerent" However it IS the law. It is not a LAW it is a policy

2. Parolees KNOW the ramifications of their actions in regards to this law.
We discuss it because as stated before a parolee is not the only one on parole. My husband may have known about the policy but he did not know I owned a bb gun when we began dating
3. Bad law, good law, strict law, whatever... A parolee knows....again the parolee may know but the FAMILY may not really KNOW how severe it is so that is why we discuss.

So in the end, it is not the fault of the Board, the PO, the judge, or the prosecutor... It is the parolee's fault. There are many laws and rules when on parole, and yes kae073 no one ever does beat the board.
Correction-no one has ever beat the board, we did successfully. Which is why he is home right now and not still incarcerated.
Also their are reasons parolees cant even be around squirt guns, as they can be used as a weapon to threaten and committ crimes. Laws are laws, and parolees have to be even more mindful of certain ones.... Sucks yes... Law needs revisiting yes... Is this ever going to happen. No... Not in this climate in Michigan...

and NOW for the families to know here is the DIRECT verbage from the policy

X. Whenever parole is denied, the Parole Board Notice of Decision shall set forth the reasons for that decision and, if appropriate, what corrective action the prisoner may take to improve the probability of being granted a parole in the future. A denial of parole shall not be based on reasons other than those identified in the appropriate Notice of Intent to Conduct an Interview, except for good cause stated to the prisoner at or before the interview and accompanied by a written explanation. Prisoners who are denied parole shall be reconsidered at 12, 18 or 24 months, as determined by majority vote of the Parole Board or a panel of the Board; however, the Parole Board may reconsider a prisoner at 60 months under the following circumstances:

1. The prisoner was convicted of an offense while on parole which was committed after July 13, 2004 and involved the prisoner owning or possessing a firearm or, without authorization, being in the company of a person who the prisoner knew possessed a firearm. In such cases, the prisoner may be reconsidered when s/he has served 60 months of that sentence.

2. The prisoner had a prior parole revoked for violating a condition of parole prohibiting ownership or possession of a firearm, including having a firearm under his/her control, or being in the unauthorized company of a person who the parolee knew to possess a firearm. In such cases, the prisoner may be reconsidered 60 months after the prisoner was available to be returned to the Department for the violation if the violation occurred after July 13, 2004.

For the purposes identified in number 1 and 2 above, a firearm is considered to be ANY weapon capable of firing a missile of any type, including BB shot, and includes an imitation firearm and a simulation of a firearm.

Never Forget
01-01-2011, 11:22 PM
As far as living arrangements, the household that the parolee is paroling to is visited and the rules known. Saying this, even IF the family lets say is ignorant to rules and the law, the parolee should talk to their family and tell them the ramifications of these things.

The LAW does dictate the ramifications of being a felon and being caught with a firearm, MCL 750.224(f) is the law that concerns felons being caught with a firearm.

Being ON Parole you are subject to that law, however also subject to the policies of the Department of Corrections.

And RAJ, I am not saying the rules are fair, or even fairly carried out. However, yes it is hard as a parolee to ensure "everyone" is being mindful of the rules you the parolee have to follow. But I think in a majority of the cases, the problem is not a squirt gun sitting on the kitchen floor... There are many injustices on parolees. However in the end the parolee needs to be mindful.

Sucks yes. Unfair yes.
Never going to change though.

MomTo5
01-02-2011, 01:51 PM
I'm lost. Ilovec, you said you beat the parole board over the zero tolerence. I thought when NeverForget said no one beats it if they get caught with a weapon is because we've never heard of anyone who didn't get sent back to prison. When your loved one was caught with a bb gun in the house he was in, he did go back to prison. That's not beating them in my mind. To me if you beat them you don't get locked up.

ilovecharles
01-02-2011, 03:13 PM
I'm lost. Ilovec, you said you beat the parole board over the zero tolerence. I thought when NeverForget said no one beats it if they get caught with a weapon is because we've never heard of anyone who didn't get sent back to prison. When your loved one was caught with a bb gun in the house he was in, he did go back to prison. That's not beating them in my mind. To me if you beat them you don't get locked up.

We beat them because he didnt serve five years. Now unless that's not considered "winning" to you, fighting the system proactively and having my husband come home over a year early b/c of a bullshit law, then I'm sorry you dont feel like thats a reason to celebrate or a "win". I think that you would though because you were there for my struggle and my fight-so Im a little confused and take that very personally.
Also, because of our fight, HUNDREDS of others are able to come home-again a win-and A CHANGE. The system can and will change if people are proactive and challenge it. I am not one to "sit down and take anything" and I hope others do not. Just because things are stacked against you doesnt mean you should become complacent in your circumstance.
On the opposite side, this is about zero tolerance. The posting was listed for the family members to know the verbage of the policy. Yes the parolee knows the rules and yes they should share that information but the family and loved ones can be proactive and learn what they are accepting to live by after the homecoming.

MomTo5
01-02-2011, 07:42 PM
We beat them because he didnt serve five years. Now unless that's not considered "winning" to you, fighting the system proactively and having my husband come home over a year early b/c of a bullshit law, then I'm sorry you dont feel like thats a reason to celebrate or a "win". I think that you would though because you were there for my struggle and my fight-so Im a little confused and take that very personally.
Also, because of our fight, HUNDREDS of others are able to come home-again a win-and A CHANGE. The system can and will change if people are proactive and challenge it. I am not one to "sit down and take anything" and I hope others do not. Just because things are stacked against you doesnt mean you should become complacent in your circumstance.
On the opposite side, this is about zero tolerance. The posting was listed for the family members to know the verbage of the policy. Yes the parolee knows the rules and yes they should share that information but the family and loved ones can be proactive and learn what they are accepting to live by after the homecoming.

This isn't personal. I'm happy for anyone who has a loved one come home. Michigan's system is insane and we incarcerate far too many for far too long.

All I was trying to say is that no matter how dumb some of this is, I've never seen or heard of anyone who gets caught with any pseudo firearm and didn't get thrown back in. Even if it wasn't the full five years, due to the zero tolerance, you lost YEARS of your life.

I never suggested someone shouldn't fight, try to change it, nothing like that. All I'm saying is that while on parole people have to be very careful because the reality is they can get thrown back in prison.

Never Forget
01-02-2011, 09:31 PM
I think we all agree that 'Zero Tolerance' laws are bad.

Innately flawed, as they offer no room for circumstance. They look good for politicians, but are frankly unrealistic. This felony firearm law on the face is a good thing... However if you look at the root CORE of the law...

To put someone away for 5 years, or 2 years because of a toy, or a bullet, or a gun in a home that they know NOTHING about is asinine, backwards and draconian at best.

The law WHEN used in the sense of a Felon HAVING a REAL gun, or using a toy in a threatening manner etc does mandate the harsh penalty. However this is akin to the drug laws where men and women got life or huge numbers for small amounts of drugs..

These laws clog the penal system, jam the justice system with unnecessary cases, and frankly cause more heartache and cost to the tax payer than need be. We have a new Governor, new House so we shall see if some changes will not be made.