My name is Monica "danielle" and I am an addict. I am married to an addict as well, though fortunately we are both in recovery.

The number of lives touched by addictions are countless. Perhaps you are an addict, the parent or spouse or loved one of an addict, or you just have an interest in addiction and rehabilitation.

I have been affiliated with twelve step programs for many years, though I've relapsed in the past. But, just for today, I am straight, clean, sober, or whatever you want to call it. ;)

Having said that - I don't believe the 12 steps have a patent on recovery - they are, however, what's worked for me. So, other experiences, programs, and ideas are welcome.

My husband is in prison, not for drugs directly, but for stealing to support OUR habits. I believed drugs were expensive - I just never knew they would cost us so much. Hindsight is 20/20, isn't it?

As a result of OUR addictions, we both have Hepatitis C now. It's the consequences of our behavior and we'll carry this with us for the rest of our lives.

Welcome to this forum - the door is open, the coffee is on, and hugs are plenty.

Please feel free to post your introductions as well.

Hey guys...it's kath...

you all know by now, Skip is in Texas (TDCJ) on felony DWI charges. We were lucky...his last offense was 10 years ago, and we hit the DA up on a good day, shot for minimum and they took it.

Only one problem...Skip is still back and forth about "I didn't really do anything wrong..." or "they just want all DWI offenders to stay here longer to justify their jobs".....thing is....HE HAS A PROBLEM.....

He doesn't drink every morning, lunch or all day....Skip is a binge drinker. When he starts, he doesn't know when to stop...and MANY drinks later, he's invincible and THINKS he can drive. Felony DWI in Texas is after the 3rd arrest....this is Skip's 2nd Felony DWI charge.

I struggle with so many things....and my eyes are wide open...he starts AA this weekend inside...and he tells me his drinking days are over....As with any addiction, I know it will be one day at a time....there are many things I disagree with on the 12 steps, but some of the foundation principles are good. I still say alcoholism is a crutch, and I'm hard-pressed to be won over to thinking there is some gene in some people that make them NEED TO DRINK. I think most addictions are based on a deep, internal driving force, and the addict has to tap into WHY they do what they do.

I know I cannot make his decisions for him....and the only REAL person who can get Skip better IS SKIP. He has to want to do this....he's a TRULY wonderful man....you guys would love him...he's caring...genuine...an out-N-out cowboy and a gentleman in EVERY sense of the word.....I struggle with his low self-esteem or whatever it is that makes him feel like he must crawl in that bottle.

One more arrest for this offense means 25 to life, and I just cannot fathom that. I KNOW they must make their own decisions, but strong, loving support can help them see that there are options other than the paths they've chosen in the past.

It's a daily struggle....I want him home...I want him well...I think God had him arrested to save his life....but above all else....I BELIEVE IN HIM....

thanks for starting this forum...and thanks for listening!

kath

Tha is all you can do Kath, believe in him and keep the faith,
Dealing with someone with a drinking problem is not easy.

I wish you both the best. :)

Hi Kath. I've been sober for over 18 years and my sobriety is due in great part to AA. It used to be very unclear whether it was genetic, but in recent years it's been medically proven that it truly is genetic. Further, it truly is a disease with clinically clear physical symptoms to diagnose by. It's not a moral issue or a matter of not having will power--------alcoholics are people with very strong will power, as a rule. I jokingly say that it wasn't will power I didn't have, it was "won't power". Addiction is a baffling and ferocious beast. The 12 step program of AA is the only treatment for alcoholism that has a proven track record, and in fact, in Oregon and many other states, in order to get licensed as a treatment center, they HAVE to include AA meetings in their care plans. Alcoholics are a very intelligent group of people and they can hoodwink the most skillful of therapists, so counselling and therapy aren't effective like AA is. Even at best though, only about 5% of alcoholics who enter recovery make 5 years continuously sober and the percentage drops from there in terms of length of sobriety. I know many things about this disease, but I honestly don't know why I made it and others don't--------why some do and some just can't seem to. I lost my husband to addiction three years ago. Denial is a powerful thing and the only thing that will jolt someone out of it is the extreme pain of the consequences of continued addiction------many never reach that state, I guess, that's just the lowest they can go. And there are some who even admit they're alcoholic and continue anyway, like one of my sisters. Good luck. You have to do what you have to do to take care of you and only your loved one can do anything about recovery. If he doesn't think he needs it, he won't seek it, and it's an elevator going to hell. You can get off any point you want and so can he, but he's probably going to go lower than you'd want to go. I hope not for both your sakes.

Kath, this is how I understand it: alcohol is metabolized differently by different people, & I think that's where the genetic predisposition comes in. People who are likely to become alcoholics have a high tolerance for it; that is, they can drink a lot more than normal people & they like the feeling of intoxication, whereas a person with normal chemistry is more likely to dislike the feeling of being out of control or becomes physically ill. There are also changes in the receptors in the brain that comes from drinking alcohol & it's these changes that cause the addiction to it, so sometimes people who aren't really genetically susceptible to alcoholism simply drink themselves into it. Bottom line, alcohol is a drug & alcoholics are addicted to it & can never drink normally because one drink triggers the craving for it due to the changes that have happened in the brain. It's easier to grasp the concept when you understand that all of our thought processes are chemical; that's how the brain functions & different chemicals that are ingested create different brain chemistry.

I may not be saying this as clearly as it needs to be said;I hope someone who is better informed will come along & do a better job than I have because I think it will really help you to understand what is going on in his body. That's not all there is to it, by any means & that's where the 12 steps can help because they (in part) help to clear the alcoholic's conscience somewhat & lead the way to a different way of thinking & better way of life. I would be interested in which of them you find fault with & why if you feel like discussing that.

I think you are looking for some deep psychological reason for Skip's drinking, but I really doubt there is one other than guilt for all the crappy things alcoholics almost always do because they're out of their minds so much of the time, but remember, the drinking preceeded those things occurring.

And by the way, if I don't take a drink in the next 10 days, it will have been 25 years since my last one. So…it can be done.

I'm holding you & Skip in my thoughts & prayers, Kath.

Adrienne

For me, to get my act together, pain was the ONLY motivator that worked. I don't mean physical pain - I mean the pain of hitting rock bottom. I'd been through jails (yes, plural), rehabs (that one's a plural too) but it took losing the one person I loved the most in the world to prison to force me to acknowledge the problem. And the problem? Well, that would be me.

When I am strung out, I am 10 feet tall and bullet proof too. I am smarter, meaner, and a complete @$$. I also have this nasty habit of blaming anybody that's breathing and lying, conning, and manipulating. I'm a typical addict.

Why am I an addict? I don't have a clue. Maybe it's genetic - but there's nobody else in my immediate family that's addicted. My parents are those kind of people that can have major surgery and be prescribed a bottle of pain pills, and ONLY take a pill if they need one. A year after the surgery, most of the pills will still be sitting in their medicine cabinet. They amaze me! I'm being serious - it baffles me that the pills don't talk to them. But, it doesn't really matter why - what matters is the "How."

What I'd suggest? Just as PTO is wonderful for finding understanding in dealing with prisons, Al-Anon is wonderful in dealing with an alcoholic. Find a group, attend some meetings and get involved. So that when Skip does come home, YOU have taken care of yourself. Believe me when I tell you, YOU ARE NOT ALONE! You may hear things you don't want to hear - and I've left many, many meetings pi$$ed, swearing I'll never, ever go back - but I always heard what I needed to hear.

(((HUGS))) and best wishes to you and Skip.

toi_ama - 18 years sober
and
Flowerchild - almost 25 years sober!

Wow! That's 43 years of recovery!!!!! Obviously something's working!

((HUGS)) to both of you! :)

Adrienne....YEAH!!! I'm so proud of you....and sure, I would love to talk about AA....

For those who don't know...here are the 12 steps...


THE TWELVE STEPS OF AA


Step 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.

Step 2: We came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Step 3: We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God, as we understand him.

Step 4: We made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

Step 5: We admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

Step 6: We were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

Step 7: We humbly asked Him to remove these shortcomings.

Step 8: We made a list of all the persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

Step 9: We made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Step 10: We continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

Step 11: We sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understand him, praying only for knowledge of his will and the power to carry that out.

Step 12: Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.


"The only requirement for membership in AA is the desire to stop drinking."
- Alcoholics Anonymous, by Bill Wilson, et. al.


I found this reponse to the 12 steps on the internet, and while I don't fully agree with EVERYTHING he says, he makes some valid points....I DON"T DISAGREE with AA...but I've seen many go into a program...and it's one bad thing replacing another bad thing....does that make sense??? I know this post is somewhat harsh...KEEP IN MIND..I DID NOT WRITE THIS......

***********************************************
The Twelve-Step Program is not about addiction recovery; it is about Alcoholics Anonymous, a religious denomination that binds its membership together with fear of self-destruction, surrender of autonomy, unwholesome introspection, prescribed meditations, and the promise of divine intervention. When freely chosen, religious solutions may benefit individuals and society; when forced, they cannot quell the animal desire for self-intoxication. Indeed, forced participation in religion kills the human spirit as surely as addiction itself.

Only A Desire to stop....
The steps above contain no suggestion that one summarily quit drinking/using, or of how one might achieve that goal. The AA fellowship expects that members only desire to stop, and certainly not to consummate recovery through a personal commitment to abstinence. It is presumed that, due to an inherent, congenital defect, AA members, i.e., "alcoholics," are constitutionally incapable of accepting moral responsibility for lifetime abstinence. They believe that such ideas are unrealistic, doomed to failure, and are cardinal symptoms of their common affliction. No member may claim to know if or when they will drink or use drugs in the future, for such knowledge would connote responsibility, and negate the purpose of the program. Recovery is not regarded as an immediate, individual responsibility, but as a long-term, group project requiring intense support from others who only desire so stop, but not quit, drinking.

We all stop at stop signs, only to start up again. Quitting for life is much different from desiring to merely stop, one-day-at-a-time. Quitting is harder, even gut-wrenching, but sets the stage from freedom based on human competency and individual responsibility.

Mission Impossible
It is impossible for addicted people to fashion a recovery program for others before resolving that problem themselves. Alcoholics Anonymous was founded by two tentatively sober drunks, Bill Wilson and Bob Smith, who gave up on themselves after repeated failures to abstain or drink moderately. Ignorant of the nature of addiction, and unaware of their own Addictive Voices, each hoped to find in the other what they could not find in themselves, the ability to stay sober without really quitting. So, each of them placed the responsibility upon the other. Unwilling to make the painful decision to unconditionally quit drinking, they created an ersatz religion which excluded and absolved moral accountability for drunkenness, describing that behavior as involuntary. The program's preoccupation with moral and character defects also dignifies drunkenness as a disease. They predictably interpreted their past failures to honor their word as evidence that it is humanly impossible for certain people, like them, to do so. Accordingly, they came up with the 12-step program, which makes no mention of quitting, but procrastinates that painful decision daily and forever. They discovered that other substance abusers are highly attracted to any arrangement that shifts the responsibility for abstinence to other entities. While they claimed the only condition for membership is the desire to quit, it is fear of the bodily desire for intoxicated pleasure, the Beast, that bonds the fellowship together. Before the Beast, AA says, humans are powerless. Thus, AA is the embodiment of the collective Beast, defending itself against moral injunction, and the 12-steps are its human voice.

Inversion of truth
Wilson's and Smith's initial inversion of truth, their artful evasion of moral responsibility for drunkenness and abstinence, required suspension of critical judgment not only by AA members, by a society that is justifiably intolerant of preposterous drunken behavior. To accommodate AA's initial inversion of truth, other "adjacent truths" have progressively been inverted, aided by the professional community, with the result that a radical, new philosophy of dependency and victimhood is overtaking traditional American values of independence, self-restraint, self-reliance, and human resilience.

As the recovery group movement marches forward using the apparatus and force of government, social decline is apparent. Step 12, above, has launched an army of altruists upon our social institutions, 12-step believers who have convinced a desperate, trusting society that their God-given creed will deliver us from an epidemic of addictive disease. They sow the seeds of mass addiction contained in the disease-treatment concept, and present their program as the only thing that works. No longer an association of helpful volunteers, AA has become a humble program of coercion, using our social institutions to force its faith on the public at large. Its faith, however, is founded on the belief that human beings are powerless over the bodily desire for pleasure, which describes beasts of the field and not human beings. Indeed, such a philosophy is corrosive to the cornerstones of human civilization -- self-restraint and individual (read: moral) responsibility.

As a means to combat substance addiction, AA stands clearly as a colossal, astronomically expensive, failure. As a government sponsored social program (about half of the members are mandated!), AA is a danger to America. History has shown that when the animal side of human nature is at the helm, chaos is inevitable.

Let us believe in people, and not programs!
************************************************

If Skip is put into AA as a term of parole, it will be the state "forcing" him. I want Skip to enter a program, because it's his desire...does that make sense? I can only hope this IS his rock bottom. I do know...no one in his past has ever really cared, and now he has someone who does. He wants us to get married when he comes home, and he even offered to adopt my kids....He has a lot of things in his life he never had before, and I believe he is seeing....life is too short, there are things he needs to accomplish, and he needs to be sober to do so.

does that make sense?
kath

If Skip is put into AA as a term of parole, it will be the state "forcing" him. I want Skip to enter a program, because it's his desire...does that make sense?

Yes that makes sense. When I was first introduced to recovery, I was a sheet-signer. I had to get those annoying sheets of paper signed at every meeting I attended. I can say honestly, though, had it not been for that then I would have never stuck around on my own.

Those sheets were my ticket to staying out of jail and honestly that's all I cared about. I didn't want to go back and I had enough sense to "follow the rules" (go to the meetings) and EVENTUALLY it rubbed off. I saw people worse off than I had ever been and they were clean and sober, had great jobs, and most of all they were HAPPY! I wanted what they had and they suggested that I keep coming back. So, as a former sheet signer, a former one being "forced" to go there's nothing I regret about it.

Just look at it this way - for that hour he's sitting in a meeting, he's not drinking. For that hour he's surrounded by winners, other alcoholics who aren't drinking, and even if it's required that he go, just maybe he'll hear or see something that'll save his life.

Bring the body and the mind will follow...

Well, I have to admit, that essay kinda went over my head, I mean, some of the things he said just didn't make a bit of sense to me & I think I'm reasonably intelligent. Still…this is what I know about AA. It was started by two men who were considered to be hopeless drunks. If I remember correctly, they got involved in a group called the Oxford Movement, a group of people who had found healing for many diseases, including cancer & alcoholism, through spiritual awakening & these two men, by following the tenets of that movement, against all odds, became sober. The 12 steps of AA come directly from those tenets, with some modifications. And one of the most important tenets was that in order to continue one's healing, it had to be passed on to others. Now I wasn't around in the 30's, but from what I've read, alcoholism was just about 100% fatal in those days & when these two men became sober it was a big deal & others were desperate to try it. The alcoholic part of the Oxford Group in the US began to swell in numbers & in time it broke away & became an autonomous group, partly because the alcoholics felt that the Oxford Group was too religious, which usually doesn't sit well w/drunks. They named themselves Alcoholics Anonymous & they grew. In time untold thousands of people found their way to sobriety in AA, myself included.

The writer said that AA "binds its membership together with fear of self-destruction, surrender of autonomy, unwholesome introspection, prescribed meditations, and the promise of divine intervention." Well, I had a fear of self-destruction when I joined AA; in fact, that is exactly why I went to my first meeting; I knew I was destroying my life. Fear of autonomy? I'd already tried to do it myself & it was obvious that I couldn't. I promise, it wasn't because I wanted to fail. Unwholesome introspection? Well, I think it's a good thing to fear unwholesome introspection — isn't that another way of saying self-centeredness? Prescribed medications? Well, I know what the writer means there: pain pills. Yep, really bad for alkies. Promise of divine intervention? Ok, got me there. I can honestly tell you that I believe my sobriety is a gift from my higher power, many call it the grace of God. But I was a atheist at the start. I'd rather be a thriving sober individual w/a deep belief in a higher power than a dead atheist any day. And to be honest with you, I know people who've stayed sober just believing in the group as their higher power, & that's ok with me.

I'm not going to take this on point-by-point because it's getting late in the day & I don't have the energy for it. But I do want to say a couple of things. First of all, this person wants to argue with the concept of "one day at a time". Well, that's the only way we can live this life & that's really pretty elementary. If I don't drink today, then the next, & the next, well, by George, one of these days my life will end & I will have had all of these sober days, for which those who survive me will be very grateful. And "Wilson & Smith" didn't artfully evade moral responsibility — they just wanted to be sober & help other people who were suffering by offering them something, finally something, that worked.

Kath, I really thought this essay was mean-spirited & a little hysterical myself. Maybe this is a person who has had AA shoved down his/her throat & deeply resented it. I've never been crazy about the courts mandating AA to people who got in trouble with the law because of alcohol abuse. I'm sure they do it because they don't know what else to do. As for myself, I always found that people who were in meetings when they didn't want to be were hostile & disruptive & a detriment to the group, but then after I heard a couple of dozen people say that they had their first exposure to AA that way and found their way back after they finally hit their bottom, I stopped minding it so much.

I don't think AA is perfect because people aren't perfect. I honestly don't think that the Lord's Prayer should be said (recited) in meetings because not all alcoholics are Christian; it's a tradition, a hold over from the 30s & I think it's being dropped in some places. AA is not a religious denomination.

Personally I think it's Skip's best hope & that's because I don't know of anything else that's ever worked.

I'm sure that others will have more to say about this; I hope you're keeping an open mind! We do mean well.

Adrienne

I have been to AA/NA meetings and have seen what they work towards with the members.
With my man, the meetings work. I go with him or he goes alone. The fellowship is what works for him, I believe.
I have seen him so low and desperate looking, and then jump up suddenly and say" I am going to find a meeting...you coming or not?" After the meeting, he has a look of peace or strength to him that he didn't have before we went. Talking and listening to others who are the same or far worse in their addictions is what helps my guy.He now chairs the NA meetings in the jail and attends AA every week as well.
I don't believe 12 Step programs would work for every person, but then the way I look at it, chemo doesn't work for every person either, or methadone for the hard core heroin or morphine addict. Maybe he will find what he is needing in AA, Kath, and maybe he won't. But at least he is going to see what it is all about.
I wish you both the best of luck with this struggle.

Shan

AA and NA work if you truly want them to. I have seen it many times. My man goes faithfully to the meetings and he now chairs the NA meetings at the pen. The fellowship is the gold in those organisations. Think how much PTO helps, just being able to vent, listen, see how others in your same situation are dealing with issues. That is the ticket to 12 step programs as far as I am concerned. To sit with a fellow addict and hear his/her story, understand that you are not the only one struggling with that monkey.
I wish everyone who has to deal with an addicted husband/wife/mother/child strength and love on their journeys.

S

Kath,,
I know where you are coming from with the Texas laws on DWI'S. I was a guard there when it was T.D.C.in 84-89.
I also got 2 DWI'S, 1 in 89 the other in 90. that is when i learned that i had a problem with drinking and went to AA
on and off for years.i just moved back to Mi from lousiana, and after being sober for a bit then i went on a binge that lasted a month. I ended up in the hospital with Pancreantites all because i thought i could control my problem. I got nobody to blame for my drinking but me, and i accept that.
I hope your man will see that Texas dont give a damm about people who drink socialy let alone the ones that are like me and think i can.as of today i am sober 2 weeks 1 day,
i know its nothing to bragg about but when the Dr told me thaf drink again that i will die!! Not only did i have Pancreantites, but i had tumers on it also from my drinking.
so i had a choice get soberor die at 42, and thats to young for me.
I wish you and him the best of luck,,stand by him and let him know that you care about him and his well being. with your support and his will to stop i think he can do it,, as for me i got no choice but hell i had fun while it lasted(if i want to call it fun) take care,and God bless
The SkullKeeper

That article sounds to me like someone on what we call a "dry drunk". AA is a spiritual program, not a religious one, and nothing is mandated------it's a "suggested" program of recovery because alcoholics don't react very well to being told what to do. The way it works is that one alcoholic can share with another from having been there--------just like one person who has been in prison can share with another who has been in prison------in a way that nobody else can. But the AA program won't work if it's mandated----it will only work if the person becomes willing to take suggestions and willing to learn. I can honestly say that I didn't want to quit drinking. I hoped they'd tell me some pill I could take instead if I had to quit. But I had been living in hell and if I had to totally quit everything, I was willing to give it a try because the other alcoholics I met there who were sober told me what they had done and that it worked. But I wouldn't have been able to admit I was alcoholic if I hadn't listened to their stories and I couldn't have stayed sober each day without their loving moral support. And it was tough love, because you can't con a con and you can't slip anything past another alcoholic like you can a therapist or someone who hasn't been there.

Hugs for all you other recovering alcoholics here! And Skullkeeper----welcome! Newly sober people are very important to me and I'm glad you shared. I'll keep you in my prayers.

Kath, I meant to bring this up to you a while back when you had posted something about asking Skip if his drinking days were over, but that was back when I was so sick and I'd made a note at the time to get back to it and didn't, but now's a good (maybe better, now that we have this forum!) time as any...

Have you looked into Al-Anon? 'cos I really really really think you would benefit from what Al-Anon has to offer to those with an alcoholic loved one. It really helped me get a grip on things and I often wished that I had sought that out when I was living with my ex, who was an alcoholic and drug addict, but still it helped sort out a lot of my confusion and other issues later on. If you haven't already been to a meeting, I would really really like to see you go to a couple... there are even regular meetings online (I'm going to post that link in the resources thread shortly).

Of course as you all know Brian is an alcoholic/drug addict too. I would have loved for him to be able to take advantage of NA-type stuff inside - as he has not had a drink in many many years but drugs have continued to be an occasional problem over the years - but since the only thing offered in his facility is AA, he has been extremely involved in AA and it has done wonders for him. We don't have Nar-Anon here in this area or I'd have done that long ago, but Al-Anon has done some pretty good wonders for me all the same, Brian's mom is also a longtimer and active in Al-Anon. It's been a godsend for both of us. We'd have both remained crazy and miserable without it.

There are things I don't always agree with and my old Al-Anon group used to get on my nerves, but really it's a matter of finding the right group for you and where you are comfortable. Al-Anon can do a lot to help clear up the confusion and wonderings and all those things those of us with alcoholic/addict loved ones go thru, and most importantly help you learn to take care of YOU so you can be the best you can be in supporting your alcoholic/addict loved one. Of course things like this forum - those of us not only dealing with prison but with alcoholic/addict loved ones too - can help the same. But I really urge you, Kath, to check out an Al-Anon meeting or two if you haven't, just to see.

I haven't been very active in Al-Anon lately but when Brian comes home, and especially if we take that next step and wind up being together full-time, it's going to be a must for us, going to meetings regularly, whether AA/Al-Anon or NA/Nar-Anon. We'll find a group we like and we'll be one of those couples there every time the door's open, with him in AA/NA meetings while I'm in Al-Anon/Nar-Anon and going to joint meetings together... it's going to be imperative for us, or else we're liable to slide back into the same old same old... him using and/or drinking and me miserable, like I was for so many years with my ex.

My ex is another AA success story. Neither Brian nor my ex (who was his best friend) would likely be alive right now were it not for the tools they've learned to combat their addictions thru AA. And I'd still be miserable and resentful and hateful and confused were it not for all I gained thru Al-Anon.

Seriously, Kath, it's good that you are concerned about Skip and how he's going to manage in the future... but if y'all are going to be together you need to be sure and take care of YOU too, and one of the best things you can do for him is get into Al-Anon and find the tools you will need to deal with being the loved one of an alcoholic. Whether he's an active alcoholic or in recovery, it's kinda still the same kettle of fish. I'd love to see Skip in AA as well because I think it could be a huge benefit, but even if he won't, it will only help you both if you are involved in Al-Anon... much more than both of you trying to do it on your own. I really urge you to check into it if you haven't...

I am so glad this forum is here now! While I am a big proponent of AA/Al-Anon & NA/Nar-Anon, I have found sometimes in some (not all) Al-Anon groups, the mention of words like "PRISON" or "twenty year sentence for murder" sometimes causes raising of eyebrows or blank, shocked looks. I think those of us with incarcerated loved ones who are in recovery or still struggling with addictions have to deal with some issues that those who know nothing of the prison experience can really understand - so I am really pleased that PTO, being the wellspring of support it is for those of us with incarcerated loved ones, now has its own forum geared to substance abuse treatment and rehabilitation! YAY! :)

I have a long list of people with substance abuse problems in my life... including myself. In my younger years I drank a LOT and did just about every drug you can name, but, like another PTO member recently posted, I just don't have that addictive personality, I could always take it or leave it. I figured if I was going to become an addict or alcoholic, it would have happened way back then. The party days have been long over for me, ten years or more... I haven't done any drugs in that long or longer, and other than the occasional beer, or drink or two with dinner, drinking is a rare thing for me. Used to be, I never understood why so many around me couldn't just take it or leave it like I could.

And there are so many. My father was a functioning alcoholic, and a workaholic, who never missed work or did any other things you think of alcoholics doing, yet drank beer constantly when he wasn't at work. So many of my friends have fought addictions to alcohol or drugs - some have won, while some have lost, like one of my dearest friends from college days whose body just plain gave out a couple of years ago after nearly two decades of heroin addiction.

And then there's my ex, whom I shared a home and a life with for seven years, whose drug and alcohol addiction ultimately split us up for good. Years later, after hitting rock bottom for a third time, he finally wanted help. Even though we had been apart for several years at that point, it looked to me like I could leave him where he was and he was probably going to die, or I could do something about it. So I helped get him into treatment and, finally, it "took". He and I have now not been in contact since about three years ago, but last I heard he was still successful in his recovery, had made a good new life for himself, and is doing well. It's bittersweet for me - for one because I wish he had wanted that help when we were still together, and then later, at one time during his initial start on recovery, we had discussed the possibility of getting back together, which didn't happen. But I'll never regret being there to help him get clean and sober when he finally wanted that help. He deserved a better life than he had allowed himself to have up to that point, and now, and especially thanks to AA, he has that better life. His past drug use did leave him with Hepatitis C, but so far as I know he's still healthy.

But those of you who have been here long enough and know any of my story at all know that my current boyfriend Brian, my incarcerated loved one who is the reason I came to PTO in the first place, is also a drug addict and alcoholic in recovery... and just happened to be one of my ex's most frequent drug buddies and fellow drinkers, because way back when, Brian was our best friend, me & my ex. Brian being around, and living with us some of that time, is what sort of turned up the heat on my ex's own addiction problems, and the miserable time for us after Brian committed his crime and was locked up really sort of sent my ex into the point of no return with his drinking and drugging. For a long time that was one of the many things I was angry with Brian over, his "bad influence" over my ex and what I perceived to be his part in my relationship with my ex crashing & burning. It took a long time to realize that all of that, my ex's increasing substance abuse and our failed relationship, would have happened with or without Brian, I was blaming him for things he had no control over or real part of.

Yet here I am, now, with Brian and probably will be for a long time if not for life, who back in those pre-prison days was probably the biggest and worst drug addict and alcoholic I've ever known, and I've known many. He was a MESS at 21, 22 years old. He started drinking when he was 12 and doing drugs soon after - that's over 20 years of drug and alcohol abuse, and he's only 35 now. And his addictions certainly helped to land him where he is now, in prison - while not the direct cause, he wouldn't have been where he was nor likely done what he did had he been clean and/or sober. Take away the drugs and alcohol from the equation, and there would likely have never been the prison experience in his life, thirteen years of it now.

And I am not totally innocent in this story - when Brian was still out here and with us, me in my early twenties and still in my partying days, yeah, I participated now and then. Not as much as they were - Brian, his then-girlfriend who was my best friend from home, and my ex, the three of them were all so wasted and messed up all the time somebody had to be the "adult" of the house and keep a roof over our heads and food in the fridge, and that person was mostly me... all three of them were working but mostly doing menial jobs or waiting tables and I was the only one bringing in any real money. We were sort of a family together for a while, dysfunctional but family all the same. But even though I was the "adult" of the house I'd participate now and again, mostly just in drinking but sometimes other things. Brian would have been the one to introduce me to intravenous drug use had it been possible - I have an old memory of us, him 20, me 22 years old, him holding my arm and desperately trying to find a vein (they were too small) and finally giving up, apologizing. It was one of two times he sort of had my life in his hands like that... we weren't even a couple then, but twice he saved me from what might have been a similar fate as his own, all that horror of addiction. I don't know for sure if he really just couldn't do it, or if he just couldn't bring himself to do it to me BECAUSE it was me.

All those years dealing with his addiction, my ex's, others, pretty much got me to the point where drugs no longer interested me and in fact, made me mad, having watched some friends' lives just totally ruined by crack. And even just drinking at all wasn't fun anymore. I used to love to play quarters with my friends or, you know, go to a hockey game and down a few beers and catch a good buzz. I sort of both grew out of it and just got totally turned off by it after witnessing drugs and alcohol destroy so many lives around me, including my own with my ex.

As most of you know Brian and I were estranged for about ten years, so when we finally were in contact again, I was so relieved to find that he had not only grown up and gotten himself together over that time, but he'd done the Substance Abuse Program in prison and was in fact at that time living in a dorm specifically for those in the SAP program and was a leader within the program. He's done well, not perfect, but it's a far cry from the complete and utter mess he used to be. He hasn't had a drink since before he was incarcerated - I wish I could say the same about drugs, but that wouldn't be truthful. The longest clean period he's had in this thirteen years of being locked up is about three years, which is great comparative to old days. You name the drug, he's done it, but the one drug he had never done before his incarceration was heroin, and unfortunately he discovered that within the prison walls. About a year after he and I started writing each other, we went through about six months of sheer hell with him struggling, and even though he got and stayed clean again, we spent a good bit of last year trying to put the pieces back together emotionally as a result of him using again.

His recovery since hasn't been 100% perfect, we still struggle some and just take everything day by day, but things have been better. Even though things have changed since we first were in contact again - the dorm is now an honor dorm instead, though most of the same people from when it was an SAP dorm are still living there - he's still very active in AA and has also gotten an extra spiritual boost thru the prison ministry there. He's doing really good, I'm really proud of him, and I don't worry about him all the time like I used to. He knows what he has to do to keep himself well and together and, more importantly, is well aware of what he has to do when he gets out in order to stay well and clean, and have a chance at a new life that's prison-free, drug-free, and alcohol-free... the latter two of which he has never had as an adult and a free man. AA has done him a world of good, and I expect that if we have a life together, AA/NA and Al-Anon/Nar-Anon will be a continual part of our lives.

My addict friend who died a couple of years ago used to say I was the closest thing to being an addict without ever having been one, because of all I've seen and all I know. He also said I have seen too much and know too much, which is probably true too. I know there are no guarantees that my incarcerated addict loved one is going to stay clean, in or out of prison, and I do worry that if they don't let him go this time, he's going to give up the fight that he is, so far, mostly winning. But we are really hopeful that there's a bright future ahead free of all that crap we've now been dealing with for decades, at the very least he is tired of his addiction and all the crap that results from it and is ready for something better and I am too. All we can do is just take it all one day at a time, and have hope, so that's what we do.

It's hard enough being the loved one of an addict out here on the outside - I think those of us who have an incarcerated loved one who's an addict have to deal with issues that other folks just can't really comprehend. Being stuck in that environment as long as he has and under the circumstances that he has, where he should have been out nearly a decade ago - heck yeah, if it were me I'd never have lasted this long!! That environment and the depression about his situation just makes the struggling all the more worse, so I feel the fact that we have gone about a year and a half now with only a couple of short-lived minor crises, and before that he'd had a year, and before that three years... it's not the perfect track record, but still it's SUCH an improvement from the way things used to be with him being a mess 24/7. Him being inside and struggling, even if it's just with the emotional issues and not actively using - it's so frustrating to me when I know that, were he out here, there's a ton of things we could do about those struggling times, and being in the environment he'll have with so much support - me, his family, his sponsor, everything - things will be better, easier.

But in there, in prison, there's only so much support available, although he's taken good advantage of what there is - and there's also a lot of people in that prison environment that would like to see him, or anyone that's doing well, fail. That's the kind of issue people like me, and anyone else here who has an incarcerated loved one who's an addict, has to deal with that most of those folks in Al-Anon or Nar-Anon who've never had to deal with "the prison thing" have NO concept of what that's like. For every supportive AA-involved inmate in that prison that my guy knows, there's several drug dealers and users in that place that would like to see him slip up and fail in his recovery just for kicks, just for their own entertainment, and in a closed-up environment like that, all your addict loved one really has to rely on is his own strength and will, 'cos there's not a heck of a lot of places to go and get away from it within prison walls.

So I'm doubly, triply glad and grateful that we now have this forum on PTO to discuss drug and alcohol treatment and rehabilitation. I think there's a bunch of issues, just like that one, that only those of us who have experience with not only addiction but also the prison experience can comprehend. I gained a lot of insight and knowledge thru Al-Anon and thru personal experience before I had any dealing at all with "the prison thing", but dealing with this stuff AND prison is like a whole other kettle of fish and I've had to re-learn some old stuff and learn some new stuff about it all since adding prison to the equation of having an addict/alcoholic loved one. Hopefully I've got some tips & tricks to share and will be looking forward to others sharing their own stories and tips in here.

Enough of me, God knows I could talk about this stuff all day long (and have!!! LOL!)... :D

Thank you for sharing your story - and for continuing to be the remarkable woman that you are. ;)

Wonderful!!!!
I know exactly what you are saying, and it can be quite scary at times.
Robert's ONLY reason for being in prison is his drug addiction. What a waste of a perfectly wonderful guy!
I hope and pray every day that when Robert comes home, he can stay clean. I know that he has been clean since going in (a year this month folks!!! Woo! Hoo!) but living out here is a different story.
He says that he will, and that he is done with the drugs. I know in his heart he believes that, but I don't think it will be as easy as he thinks it will be. If it were, he wouldn't be back in on a parole violation for using again right?
So, it really is one day at a time. AND, really, the hardest and scariest part begins when he comes home. That's what scares the devil out of me. BUT, I have faith in him and I have faith in God. I am not an overly regligious person, but I do believe that God will help those that are willing. And I believe that Robert is willing. (If he's not, he WILL be! LOL)
Thanks for the wonderful post!!!! :)

THANKS FOR SHARING YOUR LIFE AND YOUR INSIGHT INTO YOUR LIFE AND LOVE.

Thank you for the great post Lysbeth!

Aw Monica thanks... y'know I think you're pretty peachy meself... ;)

Jeni, I've always had such hope and fondness for you and Robert 'cos I've seen so many similarities in him and Brian, and in mine & Brian's relationship to yours & Robert's, in things you've written and that Robert has written that you've shared with us. In a lot of ways I have the same hopes and fears for Robert and for y'all that I do for Brian and for us. The only difference is I don't worry as much about what happens when Brian gets out, it's him being stuck in there much longer that I worry about... whereas Robert has done SO wonderfully staying clean in there, which is a great, great thing. Of course Brian has been stuck where he is a long, long time now, years longer than anyone thought he would have, and that has contributed to the "whys" of why it's been so hard for him. Out here on the outside, there are still no guarantees, but I'm not quite as concerned. One day at a time and at least he'll be out of that environment. Robert, on the other hand, sounds like he has the opposite task at hand - doing fine in there and what's ahead after his release is more worrisome. I'm not terribly religious either, but I know God's had a hand in keeping Brian as safe and well as he's been, and Robert too. And they're around the same age, and probably Robert knows this like Brian does - Brian's said before that nothing but the grace of God has kept him alive, and God's not going to continue to spare him time and time again. I have a lot of hope for all of us and a lot of faith in both our guys, and with any luck maybe they'll be getting out around the same time. We just gotta hang in there, sister, and have faith and keep that strength up and take good care of ourselves, and let God take care of the rest and the boys will hopefully keep up what they must do to stay well and get their lives back again, you know?

That's what I'm hoping for and counting on... and PTO'll be here for those days when I wanna pinch his fool head off (and have recently, but that's a whole different message thread!!!)! ;)

Thanks for the kind words, Denim and Valerie... means a lot. :)

Lys, Bless you !
What you have said sounds right on. I think that if Robert had been in as long as Brian has, there is a good chance that he might have given up a time or two. Really, how can they not? Having your only hopes dashed is a horrible thing!
I don't know how easily available drugs are in prison, but from what i have heard, getting them is usually not a problem. It lightens my heart to know that Robert has chosen to stay away from them. However, like you said, it's when he gets out that is going to be the true story.
I think that Brian REALLY sounds like he is getting it together.
Either way, I think that both of them have learned a hard lesson a terrible way. I tend to think that if Robert didn't learn it this way, he wouldn't have learned it at all. He'd most likey be dead.
Brian and Robert both did something to land them in prison, something that they most likey wouldn't have done if it weren't for the drugs. That in itself is the saddest thing of all. But, they did what they did, and they are now dealing with it. Robert has always wondered why he has been spared. Of all the stupid things he has done in his life, how is it that he is still alive ya know? That tells me, as it does with Brian, that God has other plans for them. They are both lucky to have survived their dealings with drugs, and now it is time to live life.
I thank God everyday for Robert, and I thank God that there are people like you and everyone else here on PTO that understand.
I think that you and Brian sound like an amazing couple, and I am so glad that after ten years, you got it to where it was supposed to be. Everything happens for a reason, and it sounds like you have that reason now. :)
As for myself, nothing has ever come easy to me. So, I know that with Robert, it is the real thing. If it weren't, it wouldn't be so hard! lol
Again, bless you and bless Brian. Thank you for letting your story be known so it could affect people like me. Brian and Robert sound like two peas in a pod! Same age, similar history, does Brian play the guitar and think he's Perry Farell too? LOL
Love ya girl!

lys,

Thanks for sharing that with us, it must have been very difficult and bittersweet...going back in the past always does that for me.
Keep being the woman that you are!!

Sunnie

Aw, Jeni, thanks for the kind words... **{hug}}

I guess it's probably different at different places but I think for the most part drugs are easily available in prison, if one can afford them that is... what's five or ten dollars on the street is easily fifty behind the walls, and usually with interest accrued fast. You have good reason to be proud of Robert for staying away from them while locked up. Brian and I were talking not too long ago and I said something about when they're (drugs) around and the temptation is there, and he said, "No, you don't understand - they are ALWAYS around, the temptation is ALWAYS there if you let it tempt you." We talked about it further and he explained there is never a day in there that someone's not holding, he could get them any time he wanted. So out of 547 days (a year and a half), he's stumbled two of those days. It sure ain't perfect, but I'm proud of him for those other 545 days. I am always saying he is the stronger of the two of us, and really he is. If he can just stay strong enough to get us thru to the end of this prison time, I think we've got a good chance that everything's going to be alright.

And yep, Brian plays guitar too... although "Nothing's Shocking" was often on the stereo here back in the day, I think he probably thinks he's Kirk Hammett of Metallica, or Slash, or Billy Duffy of The Cult, or John Frusciante of the Peppers... he says he can't sing (I've heard him sing along with the radio and disagree, tho!). Shoot, we're already planning post-incarceration trips to Savannah and Charleston and all kinds of places, maybe I oughta add Detroit to the list - wouldn't that be a blast?! And some extra confirmation that a couple of recovering addict ex-felons (and their way cool girlfriends) can have a great time hanging out drug-free and alcohol-free? Hey, maybe y'all can meet us halfway in Ohio when we go visit his dad one of those days in the future! Something to look forward to! :)

Love & **{hugs}} -
Lys

Sunnie, thanks... it's a little bittersweet but really it's always kinda cathartic to me... going back in the past like that is always a good reminder of how much BETTER things are these days, and how much they have improved!!! Thanks much for the kind words. :)

The thought of posting my life on the internet where thousands of people could read it, makes me a little bit nervous. I also know me, and once I make myself vunerable that way, it's hard for me to look people in the eye...and I still have this habit of wanting to run....

I have been a member of AA for going on 18 years October 28, 1985. Today I buried a friend Jerry who was at my first meeting at age 20, who died 28 years sober, at age 88. Alot of the old timers I hung with were in their 50's already and most had been sober a number of years. They used to tell me things like "you didn't drink long enough", "go do some more research." "sit down and shut up", you have nothing to say until you have about a year sober"...back then sponsors appointed themselves to new comers and that's how I met Patt.
She was a real church going type of gal, who drove me crazy with her religious way of trying to cram God down my throat and the steps down my throat. I was young, mean and had a vocabulary of nothing but 4 letter words. At meetings, if I talked I had to pay her 10 cents a cuss words and needless to say she could have bought a couple of houses with what I paid her over the years. She fired me several times over the years and when I was ready to listen I always came crawling back.

I prided myself with the fact I could drink just about any man under the table, and could shoot pool and play liars dice like a pro. I didn't go to bars legally but I had a fake ID and noone ever checked. I went to bars to drink, and socialize. God forbid if some "guy" tried to pick up on me, because I would straight tell him, "If I was interested in "THAT" you'd know..and was very rude and hurtful when getting my point across that I was not looking for a man, I was excercising my freedom of speach and having a good time.

I was a tom boy most of my life, and I odn't think figured out I was a girl until I hit about 35. I was heavily into sports and loved motercycles, the fast life and fast people. I came from a family of very successful and church going EVERY sunday parents and my two brothers and one sister followed that plan. I did NOT. I went to church because my parents made me...and I already knew I was going to hell, because of the thoughts I had sitting of the priest and the alter boys who I though looked mighty fine in their gowns. Standing, sitting, standing, kneeling at St. Monica's Roman Catholic Church. I went to confession, took communion, and when it came time for the sip of wine, I would down the goblet. I should have known then I would most likely become alcoholic. LOL.

I am the only confessed alcoholic in my family and the only one who has been in jail, and the only one who is NOT successful at business, or finished college, or got married to the perfect guy and had the perfect life. I dated men you don't take home to meet the family, and embarrased my family on a regular basis.
Stole the car to roam the streets at 2 am pick up my friend Kathleen and maybe Karen, and we'd go to the animal house and party til around 430, because my dad got up at 5 am every morning to go to work.
I started drinking my freshman year in High School and while my friends all out grew that stage, went to college and got married, I hit my bottom at age 20 and went to AA.

I was young, and mean like I said, and very, very angry. I did everything that was not recommended and basically "screwed"my way though the first 5 years or so of my recovery. When my reputation got too bad at AA, I switched to NA. I white knuckled it for 8 years, and nothing changed really in that time. I thought it was 94 but it was 1993 that I found it necessary to pick up another drink.

I had my own place, and a good job, and finally some peace in my life..or so I thought. I met a guy at work, and he drank and used drugs..By then I was convinced I had just gone through a faze, that I was not an alcoholic, not really, I just had finally grew up and now I could drink normal..HAHA...
Soon I was drinking at least a quart of jack a day and my life started to turn to shit...I started dating a few other people other than my boyfriend, and in November of 1994, I found out I was pregnant, and my dad had a massive heart attack and almost died...I stayed sober for a year after Savannah's birth.....I started chiping and basically hit my consumption.
I was living with my mom and dad who had always been there for me, and I was extremely close to my parents. I was the only one in the family who had a child out of wedlock and while my brothers and sisters never forgave me for this, my parents were always there behind me.

I was in a very abusive relationship and ended up in a battered womans transitional housing in January of 1996..I lived there until March of 1997. I started drinking alcoholically and ended up being kicked out of where I was living the battered womans housing where I had my own 2 bedroom apartment, and a very good life. I was unable to "control" it anymore and my life was falling apart. I was up to about a half a gallon of jack a day and for 4 weeks while my mom and dad took care of Savannah, I holed up in my room and drank myself to death or tried to. I didn't want to live and I didnt want to die.
I was very abusive when drunk and one night my dad and I got into a horrible fight, and they called the police on me. I went to jail for the night and 10 days later on Easter Sunday 1997, They called the police again, becuase I was out of control and they were trying to excercise tough love. CPS got involved and I had temporarily lost my rights as a mother. My parents had Savannah and right out of jail, I went to treatment for 6 months. I then went to outpatient, went to counseling, worked fulltime, and went to court for my daughter, and in January of 1998, I moved into the apartment I am now, and Savannah came to live with me, on a trial basis. In April of 1998, I was granted full custody and case was closed. I continued to go to counseling and was very active in AA...I did what was suggested, and was willing to go to any lengths for my recovery... It took many many months for me to get over the guilt of cps being involved, but under the influence of alcohol and drugs, I am not a fit parent...and basically I owe my sobriety and my life to CPS and my parents..who loved me enough to do what was very hard for them to do.. In 1999, my dad's heart was failing and by October, we had sold their home they'd been in for 35 years, and they moved to rossmoor a retirement community.

I was able to make living amends to my parents and after work I went to their home to help them in ways they needed me to.. My dad was in and out of the hospital, and in april of 2000 he had a gall bladder operation..Because of the condition of his heart, they were very leery of doing the operation but because of the pain he was in, they went in to see if it could be removed laporoscoply, well, when they looked and saw the condition of his gall bladder, gangrene, he underwent a 20 hour operation. He was on life support for 10 days and came out of that healthier than he'd been in a year. July 16, we took my daughter for her birthday pee-wee golfing, and a little over a month later who'd have thought my dad would be dead, and nine months after him my mom.

My parents anniversary is april 22, and on april 22, 2000, was my parents 50th wedding anniversary. We had a big huge party planned but because my dad was in the hospital for his gallbladder, we postponed it to August 24, 2000.

On August 21, the nurse came over to the house and didn't like the results of the kidney test she was getting so asked my mom to take my dad to the hospital.
I go to the hospital and meet my mom there, and the doctor sat my mom and I down and told us, "Mick's kidneys have FAILED, and he's not going to make it." WHAT????? My life was never going to be the same again after that.

He died on august 23, 2000 and his funeral was on ausust 25, 2000..People thought they were coming to a 50th anniversary party and were met at the airport, to go to a funeral.
My mom was never the same again, not really. After 50 years of marriage, and 55 years of being together, she went to sleep on June 5th, and on June 6th, 2001. was found dead in her sleep.

It's been very hard for me to deal with, but because of AA and people in my life, I have managed to get through teh death of my parents, and even the death of my sponsor Patt. I have an 8 year old daughter and 2 month old son. who's father is in prison becuase he relapsed. I went through the entire pregnancy alone, except for 2 months, and the birth by myself. If i am important like he says I am, he will do what he has to do to get his life in order. I let him go because I was tired of being blamed for his relapse, and had to take care of myself....not worry about him.

I am not in the position to be able to take collect calls every day, or even more than one time a month.. I am probably the worlds worst girlfriend, but I rarely write. I do send pics sometimes, and am in the sidelines waiting and looking, and seeing what he does when he gets out. I really don't want to hear what he's got to say right now, and I sure as hell don't want to hear " i love you", and im sorry, and listen to him whine about the circumstances he's in. He put himself there and he needs to pay the consequences for his actions, it's the only thing that will work...Im not his sponsor, and I do not have to be the one to continuously reassure him of my love and fidelity. I was the perfect girlfriend, and he kept accusing me of cheating on him, so I told him to go to HELL< and backed off. Way off. We still talk occasionally but im waiting to see what happens when he gets out, and if he will put into practice all he says hes gonna do when he gets out. it's up to him. My parents saved my life for practicing tough love, and i only do what I know to do. my job is to stay sober and take care of my family. prison may be really bad I understand that, but so is living out here on your own....I do what I have to do, and my recovery comes first, becasue with out it I have NOTHING>..


Sunnie

Wow, what a story! I'm proud of you for not only getting your life together, but keeping it together regardless of the obstacles in your life. You are truly an amazing woman.

Michelle

Wow Sunnie
What a story of reality. I cried through your story... only because so much of it hit home for me. I have never gone to recovery, my recovery was getting hit and almost killed by, ironically, a drunk driver on August 23rd, 1998. I don't drink anymore. I have drank a total of 3 drinks since then and that wasn't until this year at the PTO Get Together. I have my own form of sobriety now, living with a terrible pain condition that will only get worse as my young days, I will be 33 on June 24th, go by. I am so glad that you are doing so good and that you have made the choice to distance yourself from your boyfriend for the reasons you have. I wish that my husband would even admit that he has a drinking/drug problem...
But so now here we are...
Thank you for sharing your story and I will hope and pray that your boyfriend does get his act together and you and your family can be whole.
Take care!!
diane

Sunnie, thank you for sharing, I know that was hard for you. Your story has literally moved me to tears, sitting here in the middle of the night like this... but they're tears of joy, I'm so happy for you and your kids that you have your sobriety and I'm so proud of you. You are one strong lady and your words have certainly given me something I will always hold onto for strength in dealing with my own situation with my own addict/alcoholic. I know it's been a long and hard road for you, but you are a fighter, missy, and you've got SO much to be proud of yourself for. You keep taking care of YOU and those two little ones... God bless and big ****{hugs}}} for all three of you!!!

Lys

Just stand by him and believe in him sometimes that's all it takes just your belief in the person.

My boyfriend is currently in prison for his second DUI charge. He's been on probation, house arrest, halfway houses and in patient institutions. He has a problem with alcohol..he's been to AA meetings, probation classes and DUI classes and he still struggles. He knows what he has to do but he does not take that path. I am sticking by his side because I do believe that all he needs is someone to believe in him and he will be okay. Because yeah everyone deserves a second chance. I can totally relate to your situation. I hope everything turns out okay for you and skip.

One of those things that probably never would have happened or been thought of at all were my addict loved one not in prison...

Well, as y'all know, my guy's had a long history of drug and alcohol abuse, over 20 years, starting since about age 12 and he's 35 now. Before prison he was in and out of treatment on several occasions, since his incarceration he's been thru everything offered as far as treatment is concerned. Virtually just about every avenue there is for treatment and recovery has been explored, and while his recovery has been overall pretty successful - and much like I said earlier in another post, things have been lots, lots better in the past several years than they ever have been before - it hasn't been perfect.

You guys are probably going to laugh, but I think he & I have finally come across the one thing that may actually WORK, the biggest deterrent of all for using for him when nothing much else has worked... and it's something that probably never would have done so had it not been for these last thirteen years spent in prison.

See, Brian loves food, and LOVES to eat. He's one of those skinny guys who can eat twice his weight and never gain a pound, and he could pretty much eat that way and loved to eat before prison. But NOW, having been locked up for thirteen years in a place that has horrible, barely edible food on a regular basis - food that is sometimes actually labeled on the box, 'cos he's seen them, "Not fit for human consumption" - now he REALLY loves food, is practically obsessed with it. Especially things he can't have and probably won't for a while yet, like a good steak, a plate of ribs, even things as simple as a salad. He gets some OK stuff now and again in there, but nothing that would be spectacular to him... stuff that's ordinary to us out here, that's what he dreams of. (LOL!) :)

Well, anyway, one night we're sitting here talking on the phone about things and the subject comes up of how much money was spent on drugs once, on a slip-up. I just happened to have a calculator handy and was entering some numbers while he was talking, and then I interrupted him and said, "You know, Baby, that was worth about twelve steak dinners with all the fixings at the Outback or something."

He was so stunned he was speechless for a minute or two (and that's a rare occurrence with my beloved motormouth). Sure, we had discussed, on many occasions, how much money his drug habit and all the booze over all these years had cost him, how he could have bought a nice car with all the money spent on drugs as a teenager, all those kinds of things.

But this was food, REAL food, non-prison food, decent food we were talking about now. And this is a man who loves food and loves to eat, and also has not had a steak in well over thirteen years...

I repeated the steak dinner total, and then I said something like, "Or, you know, that could have paid for one or two weekends away for us in the mountains or something."

"Well, I love you, Baby, you know I do," he said carefully. "But... a STEAK..." ;)

His reaction to the whole steak dinner theory was so extreme I knew I had something, so I pushed it a little further when I wrote him later on after we talked. Calculator in hand, I repeated the total of steak dinners (and added how many steaks could have been bought at the grocery and cooked on the grill, for good measure). How many plates of ribs from one of the fine rib joints here. How many orders of nachos and burritos and chimichangas from our fave Mexican restaurant. How many trays of oysters on the half shell. A great big long list of everything he has virtually just craved for years and years now.

It sounds silly, but the fact that he can equate the cost of using with losing that many steak dinners or that many plates of ribs has actually become another good reminder, and maybe the best one we've found so far, of why he doesn't want to use again. He loves food so much and has craved so many of those things for so long now, he can't stand the thought of losing ten or twelve potential steak dinners in his future!

Something that would never have happened had it not been for these years stuck in prison without such things. It sounds too simple almost, but so far it's kinda working for us. We have an agreement now, if he starts feeling the urge, he's supposed to call me and I'm to remind him how many future steak dinners or plates of ribs or whatever else he's going to lose. So far it hasn't come to that, thank goodness, but so far this little bit of positive reinforcement seems to be giving him at least a little extra push towards staying clean!! He's doing pretty great with all the other aspects of his recovery, but this whole steak dinner thing has really kinda given him that extra push and a little more strength... and it was practically accidental, I just said that in the first place as I did as sort of an afterthought!!! :)

But man, whatever works!!! It's not a cure-all, that's for sure, but it seems to be helping a little where other things haven't. Food's not going to do it for everyone, but finding whatever that little something that they REALLY love and have had to do without for all that time in prison, it seems to work as a little extra positive reinforcement... can't hurt, anyway, I say. ;)

mark has also told me he wants a salad when he gets out... it seemed kinda weird to me, but i guess all the fresh ingredients are what theyre craving..

hell, whatever works, right? ;-)

Haha- that is sooooo cute!!! Well, I do this... when I buy something I really like, I sometimes think to myself, how many 'hits' this would have been and am so happy I spent the money on something that lasts and is good instead of something that makes me miserable.

T

Thank you for posting your story, Sunnie. You know, it isn't how much a person accomplishes in life but how much they overcome that makes them great — you have climbed mountains & continue to do so. I completely understand how you feel about opening up & making yourself vulnerable, but your wisdom, strength & hope shine like a beacon that is sure to help others along the way; I admire your courage.

As for your son's father, there really is no place for him in your life until he wants what you want. If he's blaming you for his relapse then it's obvious that he's not taking responsibility for his decisions & until he does there's no hope for recovery. I think you're doing the right thing in staying detached from his situation. Especially right now you need to take care of you & your children.

Sending you love & white light…

Adrienne

Kath!

You know I love ya girl! Thank you for sharing your story with us!

[The thought of posting my life on the internet where thousands of people could read it, makes me a little bit nervous. I also know me, and once I make myself vunerable that way, it's hard for me to look people in the eye...and I still have this habit of wanting to run....}

I was once the same way. :) I know how you feel.

You done pretty good for yourself and you should be proud of yourself, please know that i am

Kenneth ate i think every thing in sight,,,,lol now he is back on eating lots of health food stuff as well.

Welcome, Sunnie. I can tell you're on the same path to a happy destiny that I am and I enjoyed you sharing your story. I found AA about 22 years ago, but didn't acheive continuous sobriety till '85. I'm glad you kept coming back.

My sponsor died just a couple of months after my husband died of a heroin overdose. I met my husband Roy at an AA meeting and we were together almost 15 years. I never did understand why I stayed clean and sober and he didn't-----he relapsed off and on the whole time we were together.----but I'm very thankful I didn't have to drink over his death. We were soul mates, for sure, through it all. I'm glad you're doing what you have to do for you and your children and you seem to have a good attitude about dealing with his inability to "get it" at this point. Hugs for you!

Sunnie," You've got what it takes"....Bless You!

I'll have to try that one with Wayne! He's a food junkie too! :) He can also eat and eat and eat and never gain a pound and it makes me SICK! LOL

I wonder how many steaks our habits could have bought? Probably enough to feed Texas!

Sunnie - thank you for sharing your story, for baring your soul and for keeping it real.

I have lived a lot like you and believe me when I say I understand. Whatever the past held - you are a winner now and I am honored to call you friend. Thank you so very, very much.

They don't get real salads, Cember... Brian hasn't had one like you or I could get off any salad bar anywhere the whole time he's been locked up. I heard the prison gave them some half heads of lettuce back in May but that's just not the same!

Lulu, I think he's probably going to eat everything in sight indefinitely when he's out... maybe he'll even gain a pound or two! LOL!

Thanks for clocking in on this, Tanya! Your understanding of the concept gives me more hope that this extra reinforcement is working, yay!!! I think, too, that we are going to find further good with it more along the lines of your method too... because another thing Brian loves more than just about anything is music, and that's another thing he has been without all this time - CDs. (He has a radio, but having his own music when he wants it is another craving.) So I'm thinking that one CD he really wants = however many hits of whatever is going to work there too. Or the guitar that he so desperately wants when he gets out, that I've promised we will go shopping for. You got the right idea, lady! Thanks for clocking in on this & love ya! :)

Oh, it makes me sick too, Monica... I can look at a milkshake and gain 2 lbs. and Brian can probably drink 100 of them without gaining an ounce! But yep, if Wayne's a food junkie too then this will probably work for him too!!

I made a point of making the concept even more apparent and tangible to him by putting it all down in great detail on paper. Sort of like, "OK, we have X amount of money to spend on dinners out, going on trips, and whatnot when you get out". This is money that's already set aside for those purposes, so he already knows it's there, this is not like some imaginary amount. Then I showed him what it would cost him were he to give in and slip up... i.e., two hits = twelve steak dinners at the Outback, or even about 31 steaks cooked at home on the grill.

I swear it's working... he can't BEAR the thought of losing a single future steak dinner or plate of ribs or any of those things!! Bless him, I hope he never loses his voracious appetite... we can use this indefinitely!!!! :D

I am so sorry to hear of your loss Sunnie ... losing a friend is hard at best but to lose a friend and mentor after so many years being such as intregal part of your life has to be painful leaving an emptiness not soon to be filled ... by sharing your story you shown us all that you are a very strong woman, one who has learned from her life experiences ... you are to be commended for that ... personally, I feel you have made the right decision concerning your son's father ... I wish you continued success and strength in the choices you make ... I shall keep you in my prayers and pray for the repose of Jerry's soul ... God bless you and the babies ...

Sounds like a plan!!! :)
Rock on Brian! 545 days is an amazing accomplishment!
:)

Wow Lysbeth!

Thank you so much for sharing your story with us! You are a remarkably strong and awesome woman.

Aw thanks Beck. **{hug}} Gee, is that Pamela Anderson? :)

Ummmm could be right? lol

congrats on where you are...and I'm sorry for all you've gone thru....you sound resilient and strong....and your story, though hesitant, can/will help others.....

thank you for sharing!

kath

The article I posted is actually an alternative to AA....it is from a recovery program....Rational Recovery...

here is the link:
http://www.rational.org/index.html

It's not that I think there aren't some great things in AA...I just don't think it's the solution for everyone....and YES, I have been to Al-Anon.....I did not care for the group I went to....I've been told to keep trying...that eventually, I will find a group where I'm comfortable.....I'm just not sure that kind of forum works for me either. I am a spiritual person...and I have turned this all over to my higher power...God. No matter my resolutions or intentions, this will pan out the direction HE would have it. I pray for nothing more in my life than direction...the rest is out of my hands....

Rational Recovery is a DIFFERENT solution....it's not me knocking AA, it's me saying "there may be other ways out there."

It's kinda like loving someone in prison....I didn't know about it....but now that I do, it's a no-brainer...yanno?

Thanks for all the input guys....I appreciate your concerns, responses, and prayers...I KNOW in my heart, Skip is gonna be OK....I know in my heart, we are destined for a happy life together....that's not saying I'm shoving my head in the sand to his problems....that's just confidence that TOGETHER, we WILL RISE ABOVE IT!

kath

Kath…First of all I want to say if this program works for you & Skip, I'm all for it. I would never say that AA is the only way to get sober, because I don't know that it is. But it was the only thing available to me at the time & I'll forever thank God that they were there for me. I went to the Rational Recovery website & looked around & I need to say that reading the info there never would have done it for me & there's no way I could have afforded the $1,800 for the AVRT course, the $372.00 for the Package Deal, the $49.95 for the Video, or even $14.95 for the book because I didn't have a nickel to my name. And nobody asked me for one.

I would very much like to know how this works for you, however, if you & Skip try it.

Wishing you the best of luck,

Adrienne

Kath, there used to be an alternative-to-AA-type program here, not sure if it still is, but it operated much like AA with no fees/etc., and operated sort of on the less-spiritually-centered, more-rationally/logically-centered theory. I can't for the life of me remember what it was called, but my ex (who at the time was pretty flat-out atheist) looked into it when we were still together.

You're in a pretty large metro area there, check the Yellow Pages and see if there's maybe something in the area along those lines... with those prices Adrienne pulled off the RR website, I'm afraid those folks may be more into making money off others' misery than helping them...

I'll take a spin around and go hunting on the Web too and see if I can come up with some info on other AA alternatives that maybe won't cost you an arm and a leg...

Thanks guys...I really appreciate the input/suggestions/advice etc....I KNOW we have a long road ahead, and I'm sure we'll figure it out....in the words of 12-steps...."one day at a time"......like I said....I don't fault AA as a whole....Skip has issues with some of it too. I would like to find something that he doesn't have any predestianations on......if it works, money is not an object....I want him to see he can enjoy life sober too! I know it doesn't matter what we find....he HAS TO WANT THIS....he is the only one who can get himself there, but he has lotsa love and support....

Let me know if you find it or remember it Lysbeth....

kath

Thank you all for the wonderful feedback...and the thought that maybe my life would be what it is because I chose to finally get and stay sober for a period of time, was something absolutely unheard of as far as I was concerned. I have a good life and two beautiful kids who have a whole mom one of which has never seen me drunk and a daughter who doesn't remember when mommy was "bad". That in itself ofen is what keeps me from picking up when the going gets rough which im here to say it does!! If pure will power alone kept a person sober or out of prison there would be no inpatient programs or recovery programs AA/NA/CA/ACA/ALA-NON ETC, and addicts wouldn't be populating prisons because of DUI's., drug/alcohol related offenses and more and more people would not be doing so many parole violations from testing dirty on UA's and such.

It's difficult to change..first what gets a person to prison to begin with needs to be ulliminated. Getting clean or sober is not the hard part..a person might have this happen and decide that this is IT, and go to a program, find out they have an addiction, go to meetings while inpatient, but the true test happens when they go home and don't have the 24 hour support and security of a program environment. It's not easy to get into a routine of going to meetings outside the program and find a support group of peers trying to acheive the same goals. But it's the one thing that is crucial to find and get a routine in. I am NOT a pro at what to do, because frankly what might work for me may not work for you, or your loved one. Ive chared thousands of meetings, and I have done speaker meetings speaking in front of a hundred or more persons, and the most joy I ever got in all the years I have gone to meetings was once when I was invited to go with a friend who was meeting her boyfriend who was in an all mens recovery program. The meeting started and when it came time to announce the speaker, i heard my name and I thought SHIT...because it was a room full of 100 men who had just been paroled out of prison...These tough cons with tats all the way down both arms, on the neck, gang affiliations up the ying yang and here I sat in front of people who would never be able to relate to me, becuase I had not been down that road. You could hear a pin drop and I caught a mans eyes and hung on. by the time I was done, these tough guys had tears rolling down their faces and when it came time to open up the meeting for anyone to talk, it was the most real meeting I had ever been to. 90 out of those hundred men, left that program and never found a suport system out of meetings, a lotof them are back in prison and a lot of them will die drunk or loaded.

so if you want to help your loved ones with their recovery, find a recovery program of your own, ( Ala-non Nar_anon) and start going. Enourage your loved ones to find NA or AA and attend regularly when they get out of prison. The support they find in prison NA and AA is not enough, it's got to be carried outside or it's not going to work. a hundred percent lifestyle change is necessary not only to break away from the prison system but the prison, inside the prison drugs and alcohol have them locked in as well. That's how you can best support your loved ones..

thanks again for such support and I am waiting to hear all your alls stories OK?>

Sunnie

Thanks to AA I haven't had a drink or drug in almost 2 years, and prior to that I don't think I went a day in my life without drinking in the past 15 years or so. How did working the steps work, going to meetings, meditating, talking to others in recovery? I can't tell you that because I'm still learning everyday, but I can tell you that when my life got so miserable that I just couldn't take it anymore I gave AA a shot and over the course of that first year I began to live life more fully than I had ever before. I didn't know how to life sober, how to enjoy life sober, I didn't know what it meant to feel peaceful, I learned all of this in AA so it worked for me. In my opinion if you want to learn more about AA you should read the AA Big Book; but actually you are not the one with the alcohol problem so in my opinion you should be reading Al-anon literature because you need to realize you didn't cause his alcohol problem, you can't control it, and you can't cure it. No matter what you read on the internet you won't find a solution for him, he has to find that himself. But you can find a solution for yourself to learn to accept him and be able to deal with this. I myself am also a member of Al-anon because I sometimes try to shove AA/NA down my husband's throat, I know it worked for me so I know it will work for him... I started going to al-anon to help me see that I cannot change him. I had to go to a few meetings before I found one that I liked. If you don't want to do that at least read the al-anon book, or like I said read the AA big book if you want a better understanding.

One more thing, in my AA group there are people of many different faiths, there are 2 atheists in our group, one of them has 18 years of sobriety. She does not say the lord's prayer but it doesn't bother her that we do because we are all open to everyone's belief in there. Another man I know in AA is not a Christian, I'm not sure what the exact name of his religion is but he's said that he believes in thousands of gods in nature, something like that, anyway he has 6 years of sobriety. The lord's prayer never seemed to offend him either. We don't meet to discuss religion, we all have our own religions and some of us have no religion, we do focus on a God of our own understanding, for some people that is simply the collective power of the group. If you read the book you may get a better understanding of this. Or you could go to an open AA meeting yourself if you want to see what it's all about. Friends & family members are welcome in all open meetings.

i started using almost 25 years ago i have 3 years clean.and it was the hardest thing to do ..still is i had to move away from everyone and start all over.and that was scarry mostly lonely..i miss my friends more then the dope.with me my self esteem suffered. and it's still low but its getting better. recovering from addiction is very lonely and i belive that loneless is what takes people back out. i still have good days and like now bad ones and for some people n-a isent the answer i couldent open up like they did..ive been to prision and rehabs after rehabs none of it worked ...im blessed to have the life i have now...

Thank you for this.....I think it's a valid point in the fight against addiction....I commend you on your courage to make those changes necessary to heal....

I have a very dear friend of mine that lives in Hesperia....
welcome to PTO!!!

kath

Hi Kim, thank you for sharing some of yourself with us. I am so glad you have found us, we can be your new friends and maybe you won't have the loneliness to suffer. Love Barb

hi kim,

Thanks for your honesty. and congrats on your 3 years clean!!!! They call addiction the lonely disease for numerous reasons. First because it seems we have to give up all our old friends and change the way we do things. It takes time to establish a support system of new friends, but it seems you have the right idea about getting rid of the triggers that may take us back out. Like BSS said, we are now your new friends and I look forward to getting to know you. Have you thought of going to NA or AA? you might meet some new friends there as well.

Sunnie

I started using drugs back in the 1970's and didn't get clean until 3 years ago myself. So we have something in common here. I sure can relate to your story. The road to getting clean is one of the loneliest ones I've ever been down and even today I really don't have that many friends. But now I have these forums and I sure do welcome you to PTO.

I enjoyed reading everyone's shares. One thing I have to say about the article - the man evidently had not done his homework, he was writing things about AA that are false. The Big book of Alcoholics Anonymous specifically states that they are not the only way to sobriety for all people, and that we should respect and learn from all different religions, programs, etc. AA is NOT a religion, it deals with the spiritual, which anyone can embrace - christian, hindu, jewish, atheist, etc. It talks about a Higher Power of your own understanding, which can merely be the group - there are a group of people who have been able to do something I have not been able to do. A common statement at 12-step meetings is "take what you like and leave the rest." I have no problem whatsoever with someone finding a different way accomplish sobriety, and wish God's greatest blessings on them. But there is one big difference between AA and this man - AA doesn't bash or badmouth anyone else, and this man certainly did that about AA. I have to wonder about a program he advocates that is apparently very expensive.... Well, I look back at this post and I sound very defensive and angry. I truly am not, but I have been in different 12-step programs for over 16 years - including 3 years of Al-Anon, and have not found it to be as he described in such vitriolic language, in fact, I would credit my membership in them to a greatly enhanced enjoyment of life, maybe even my sanity!. I CELEBRATE recovery in whatever way it is found, but please, let's not bash the people who don't do it our way. Okay, enough said. sorry to get on my soap box. Glad to hear of so many of you who have benefited as I have from our mutual friends, Bill and Bob.

Melanie

Like some of the others, I have not had a drink for twelve months, and like skip I used to binge drink, not drink all the time. I only came to my senses after years of ruining relationships, ending up in hospital (alcoholic poisoning and pancreatitis) and spending the night in cells. I joined AA and got some help there but I couldn't follow the steps as they teach it. In the end the only person that could help me was me. I wondered how many times I could wake up in the gutter my self respect in tatters. It hasn't been easy and when you get low the temptation is always there, but thankfully I have remained strong. I hope Skip can reach the point where he can admit he has a problem.......that is the start of recovery.

Anne

Like some of the others, I have not had a drink for twelve months, and like skip I used to binge drink, not drink all the time. I only came to my senses after years of ruining relationships, ending up in hospital (alcoholic poisoning and pancreatitis) and spending the night in cells. I joined AA and got some help there but I couldn't follow the steps as they teach it. In the end the only person that could help me was me. I wondered how many times I could wake up in the gutter my self respect in tatters. It hasn't been easy and when you get low the temptation is always there, but thankfully I have remained strong. I hope Skip can reach the point where he can admit he has a problem.......that is the start of recovery.

Anne

Melanie,

I don't think the guy is bashing AA cuz it's not his way....it was simply my attempt to say there ARE other ways....

I know AA has helped thousands....and I'm so proud of everyone who posted on this topic. I think Anne makes a valid point....Unless someone wants help and admits there is a problem, ALL PROGRAMS are useless.

Skip promised me to start attending AA in his unit, yet he's missed the last 2 meetings.....not sure what ot do with that, but I know he, from his past, has a real aversion to AA. The article and link I posted were things I found in my attempt to get him help anyway I could find it...AA or NO AA.

Kathy, I hoped after my post that you didn't feel ANY criticism at all of you, I surely didn't mean it that way. and I agree that AA is not the way for everyone, and I DEFINITELY agree that it is not for everyone who needs it, it's only for those who want it. It CAN be a method of recovery for people who are desperate. I have a friend who started in AA and then felt the meetings were too depressing and quit the meetings but has stayed sober for 7 or 8 years or so. I rejoice with him! I truly hope everything goes well with Skip. I hope the same thing about my husband, Jack. He has been a binge drinker like some of the shares I saw. He SAYS he has realized he can't do it and needs help and volunteered to go AA (2-3 month waiting list, and apparently now no more in his unit) and several alcohol treatment programs, which he is on a waiting list for (which I've heard they're also cancelling because of money). We won't know anything really till he gets out. I'm willing to believe in him and hang in there with him. I am going to Al-Anon to try to get myself strong enough that when he gets out I won't accept unacceptable behavior. As much as I ADORE him, I can't allow him to take me down with him and if he continues, that is the only place for him to go - if he has a next time, I"m sure it will be the 25 year thing and he's 49 years old. It's time to do something different. But I cannot do anything but love him and encourage him and turn him over to God, and take care of myself, in the meantime.
As I said, I wish the best for all of us in ALL the different ways we try to recover in this painful world.
God bless us all.

Melanie

One more thing I think that helped AA work for me, is that I was so desperate. Prior to walking into AA I wanted a quick fix, some magic pill that would make the desire to drink go away. I liked an instant buzz and I wanted an instant cure. But I didn't find any of those magic pills to make it go away and so life got progressivley worse for me until finally one day I just said, "I can't take this anymore, I don't care what I have to do, I'll do it, I just want this obsession to go away!" And so I walked into AA and I had to work for it, it wasn't like someone just removed the obsession from me, it took a lot of work, but for me it was worth it. At the end of every meeting in my group we say, "keep coming back cause it works if you work it." Only if you work it, and it is work so a person has to want it bad enough to work for it, and the only way I got to the point where I wanted it bad enough was when my life got so bad I couldn't take it anymore. Everyone is different and AA is not the only way, I know a couple of people who were able to quit drinking just on their own. I was not one of them, and believe me I tried. AA also pounded into my brain the first drink concept, if I don't pick up today, I wont' get drunk, and if I do pick up today, then chances are I will also pick up tomorro, it's all or nothing. I could go on and on about things I have learned from listening to other people share and what has worked for them. Just like with this forum, I can take to heart the advice I hear in this forum much better than from someone who doesn't have a loved one in prison, because you guys understand, and when I'm having a bad day, lonely, angry, depressed, over this situation with my husband, I can listen to the experience, strenght and hope of people who have been through the same thing, and it helps me. AA works on a very similar principal.

All I have is my expirience, and it is extensive when we speak of alcohol and drugs. I quit on my own for 3 years prior to getting into REAL recovery with the help of a 12 step program. The big difference between alcoholics and non alcoholics is that when alocoholics quit drinking, they go crazy. Untill you apply some sort of recovery tools to your life. Its white knuckling and it sucked for me. But hey, any o'l shitty sobriety is better than no sobriety and I am glad got those 3 years before getting a program. It raised the bar on how much emotional pain I can endure. But it still would have been better if I had gotten straight into the solution. Good luck to you and congrats.........

Yes, congratulations on the three years! I'm glad you're here with us and I hope you'll share often with us.

thanks for all your support. I'm really having a hard time it just wont pass like before. i dont know what to do. i'm getting weaker by the minute

I wish I could say something that would make it all easier for you, whichru. I will remind you that using won't solve anything & is bound to make things worse in the long run.

Most of the people I've known that ended up in a 12-step program tried to do it on their own for a while before they decided that it would be better to get help, so maybe you'll reconsider your decision that NA isn't for you one day. I don't know how long you tried it, but it usually takes a while for most people to open up & it isn't necessary to put it all out to the group anyway — that's what sponsors are for. Remember, they are the same kind of people you were friends with before, only now they're clean. You don't have to do it alone & you don't have to be lonely. There's help; there's people who care; all you have to do is ask.

I ask that you receive the strenth & guidance that you need right now.

You are not alone.

Adrienne

Three years! That is awsome! Don't stop now. Please. You are giving me so much hope for my son to be able to stay sober. Everytime I hear of an addict getting sober and staying that way, it gives me hope for him. You are helping others and probably don't even realize it.

Congrats on the three years! And as Kim said--don't stop now--it sounds like you're doing well! Love and Respects--Helen
BTW--Welcome to the group! :)

maybe i'll try a program again i used to sit in a court room and that would take care it.i'll go to a meeting after work and see what happens. people get weird when you say your drug of choice mine is the worst so i'll keep an open mind and go.thanks all

1. you would be better off going to an AA meeting, in my opinion. Dont make a big deal out of just changing the word, addict, to alcoholic. I really dont want to run N/A down. I have just seen far more success in AA . Can you imagine people who get so hung up on the term "addict" rather than just saying alcoholic, that they would let it take them back to prison or worse? also, I have never met and addict who could drink very well anyway!:rolleyes:
2. 90 meeting's in 90 days!

3. Look for the similarities and not the differences!
its so easy to sit there and say, oh not me, nope I didnt do
that.

And rememeber, when you stay in the solution, the best is yet to come!

I've seen miracles take place in both AA & NA. Some groups have more sobriety than others; just go where you think you'll find the best fit. You don't have to talk about specifics; they don't matter…in the beginning it's more important that you listen anyway. Look for someone that has what you want & ask that person if they will sponsor you. If they have too many they're sponsoring already, ask them to recommend someone; the sooner you find a star to hitch your wagon to, the better!

I'm holding a good throught for you, whichru, & sending you white light (for healing).

Adrienne

I say addict for my son because he will use alchohol or drugs of any kind, just whatever is handy...so I guess I should say drug addict alchoholic. He is not particular in his drug of choice. Sad but true.
PS Whichru, please don't give up. Try anything and everything. Just stay busy and help those that are struggling. You have so much to give with all your experiences. I know you can do it!

I have been thinking about you and I thought I would ask you what you think could be said to someone who is determined to get high. My son always says that he just needed help and someone to stop him. What could I have said or done? Just so I know if it ever happens again. After three years you surely have some answers, huh? I want to know next time I am watching my son standing in front of the train....what do I do to stop him? Help! I always know when he is going down and feel so helpless.

nothing you say will stop him the only thing that will is himself. he has to want it. for me i went to a dozen rehabs and none worked i stayed as long as 18 mon.one time. it's so hard. i had to move and start all over again. what made me feel better in the beg. was when i started working.it helped me feel better about myself it's a demon i live with every day it sits on my shoulder waiting for a day i'm the weakest then it attacks.they say to stay out of old play grounds.learn what makes you tick no what yor triggers are be aware of them my biggest one is my husband who is doing life. and my parents. pray alot

I was also a toxic waste dump. I did whatever, but usually it was alcohol that gave me the *uck it attitude that gave me the green light o do drugs. And there is somewhat of a difference between addicts and alcoholics.
It is a medical fact that if you give someone and injection of heroin every day for 90 days they will become at least physically dependent on it. If you give a non-alcoholic a drink every day for 90 days they will not become physically dependent on it. Remember alcohol and drug abuse is a symptomof a greater problem. It is the tip of the ice berg.
The great thing is that the 12 steps give precise way to overcome those problems and put you on the path of a life that is beyond your wildest imagination. I am real enthusiastic right now as I just got off the phone with a newcomer who is seeing things get better.
I once heard a speaker who was speaking at a hospital.
He said, " Right down stairs below us is a whole floor of people dying of AIDS. If you were to go down there and tell them that if they worked the 12 steps not only would they live, they would become happy, joyous and free. They would leap from there bed and rush to do them.
But the #1 charachteristic of ALL alocoholics and addictis is-

(drum roll) DEFIANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So we try some thing maybe once, twice, 3 maybe 4 times and go, "Oh that doesnt work". Just because its not working the way we think it should........Hang in there!!!!!!!!!
It gets so good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love it it. And if you knew what I was like when I drank you would be shocked to think I was capable of being happy..........I was not a nice person...
I thought I was, I thought I was thoughtful and considerate.
Man, I was sick..............

That was very good Warhead, do you work out of the LB house or the meeting place in SJC I work over that way maybe we should meet sometime for lunch. Love Barbara

herion was my thing.I did try meetings alot of them.but I'll keep going.today is much better i'll even go to work in the morning.when i'm like that i'm scared to leave my house untill it passes. the meetimg i went to sucked all the guys just want in your pants and i'm not looking for that. i'll try a different meeting.thanks

As far as guys wanting in your pants go's, this is earth, I suspect there is more than one swarthy heroin dealer out there who would wanna get in a women's pants. The point being, going back to using, changes what? Everyone has the right to be wrong, so if some joker makes a move, think about the wrong moves you have made before in life, and just tell the guy, " sorry, my life is depending on this".
Focus on the good, anyone can see the bad.......

Hang in there Kim! I know about the white knuckling you have endured with it and I can hear your pain of loneliness too. For me the program relieves the loneliness and the pain I am in at the moment. And for me it takes working with someone on a one on one that saves my butt and helps me to maintain my sobriety. And I just celebrated 9 yrs and I could only have done it with working with my sponsor and the fellowship of others that suffer like I do because noone else could relate other than those people in the rooms. If you need to talk don't hesitate to pm me okay. Hang in there and stay strong and just remember if nothing changes nothing changes and for me everything had to change from the friends I had to where I kept my toothbrush and I was willing to change because I sure didn't want what I had been living all of the years prior. Sending you lots of hugs and prayers!

cherrie from tx

So much wisdom here! I feel like I've been to a meeting just reading these posts! I'm soooo pleased that there's this much sobriety on PTO!

Kim, it sounds to me that you really want to stay clean — you're doing the right things by talking about it & going to meetings. Warhead is right, there are some sicker than others — just blow them off & look for the ones that truly have what you want. They are there & you will find your right place if you persist.

We are pulling for you. We know it works if you work it — we're living proof.

:D Cherrie — I had to change where I kept my toothbrush too — and where I laid my head, as well. It was hard, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do to save your life & sanity.

Sending white light to all of you…

Adrienne

A day at a time, a minute at a time... Whatever it takes. I cannot imagine going back to using, but it's been many years. I have a totally different lifestyle and I love it. The first few years were rougher, but I made many friends in the program and got closer to them than I had ever been to my old friends.... Today I have friends in and out of the program and am comfortable with me..... Remember.."This too shall pass..."

Deb

I found what I looked for in meetings and if I had a negative attitude that day, I mostly saw the negative things so my disease could tell me that I shouldn't be there and that it wasn't worth it. My addiction told me whatever it took to keep me addicted. I stuck with the winners and not the weiners, though, and I've made it so far. I believe it's true that if you haven't had enough----if you haven't been so beaten to your knees that you're willing to do ANYTHING to end the misery, then it's a lot harder to get the "want to" to stick with it and stay clean and sober. When you go to meetings, everyone there has their own set of problems and hangups. Nobody is there because they were able to live a non-addicted, socially acceptable, emotionally and spiritually healthy life, and addiction carries with it a whole lot of issues beyond the use of drugs so you're going to find a lot of people who are trying to seek a lot of things, not necessarily just a clean and sober state. Brush them off and look for people who have made it and who are seeking to share with you, not take from you.

I've heard it said that insanity is doing the same things over and over again, but expecting different results. That's the insanity of addiction. I just kept doing it and doing it and doing it and expecting that THIS time, I was going to be successful at truly maintaining and truly making it work so I wouldn't have to pay consequences and wouldn't have to give it up. One of the statements I've heard that rings most true for me is that "If you think what you always thought, you're gonna get what you always got." If I hang onto the old thinking that kept me addicted, then I'm going to stay addicted and die. If I'm willing to change my thinking, then I can live a happy, free life beyond my wildest dreams. But for me, I couldn't change that thinking and I needed the help of other addict alcoholics that I found in meetings and in the books. Plus, for me, the bottom line was that if I just didn't pick up NO MATTER WHAT, the urge did pass and I could go on to better times. I do have a choice whether or not to tough it out and not use or drink or whether to just give up and hop on that elevator to hell again.

In August of 2000, I lost my husband to a heroin OD. It's a tough drug to beat. But if you truly want to enough to go to any lengths to kick it while you're young enough, you CAN succeed and you won't have to die like he did. He was in his 50's and he hated what he was doing. In his wallet he carried business cards from treatment centers that he gave out to kids. He'd been to tons of treatment and I met him in a meeting. I've heard it said that there comes a time in addiction where you can want to quit with all your heart and soul but it's too late, and he's (I almost said living proof) dead proof that that really can happen. He was a fantastic person, as I'm sure you are, too, and I'll be praying for you that you can want NOT to enough to stick with meetings, find a sponsor, and stay clean.

I didn't like going to meetings and I can honestly say I didn't WANT to stop drinking and using----I just didn't want to live like that anymore. If stopping my addiction was what it took to live a different life, then I was willing to try that. If I had to sit in meetings and listen to boring stories and put up with guys hitting on me and not seeing my old cohorts, then I was willing to give that a try. If I had to consider there might be a Higher Power and that I wasn't God, then I was willing to consider that. I had to become willing to open my mind a crack and learn something different tha