I must admit, since this forum has opened, I have found myself contemplating upon different things that I had never before really faced. At least to the degree that I am facing now. I mean, I think all gay men and women know of the problems we face. Though, I suspect for some it is by their generalities, rather than from direct interactive participation in trying to understand the full scope and find postive change. My contemplations however are not solely confined to the "politics" of what gay men and women face. But also of my own struggles and journey's in being a gay man. And having to set aside my denials that have long since kept so many things at bay.

I remember the day I sat in Court listening to the arguments over Amendment 2 [Colorado, anti-gay amendment] and how we as a gay community, were being accused of wanting "special rights". Because we dared to want to love another humanbeing of the samesex. I think sometimes I resent straight people because of the freedoms they have and treat with such indifference... The freedom to openly show their love... To walk down the street holding their partners hand... To be at the bedside of their loved one when they die. The freedom to be secure in their property, jobs and relationships. The freedom just to be free...

What "specialness" is there in having freedom that it is reserved only for those who are straight? It is the ability to never live in fear for loving and to be loved without the association of imposed criminality. It is simply the ability to be you.

I was seventeen when I came out to my family and I regret having ever done so because of the consequences lived. It took my mom three days to allow me to just put ice-cubes in her ice-tea.. thinking I had some disease simply because I am gay and then going through the endless guilt trips put upon me. To this day my Mom still thinks I will see the error of my ways and give her a grandchild.... Never really seeing or even understanding how much this hurts me... That she refuses to accept me for who and what I am in my totality. As for my dad, well, dad comes from the "old military school", so it was not surpising that he decided to disown me; it was bound to happen anyway..if not over my being gay, then over something else..

Not too long ago, I tried writing to a pen-pal in prison, someone who professed not to be "judgemental" and so on and so on... So, in wanting to have respect for him, I was up front about my being gay, but also noted that my being gay was not why I was writing to him; nor did I have any desire to stir up a "relationship" with him... Just thought I would reply to his pleas for a pen pal. The response I received was an interesting one... on one hand, he began the typical bible thumping preaches on how gay people are an abomination to God and so forth. While on the other hand, telling me how he believes gay people are an oppressed group of people because of society's beliefs and whatnot. When I wrote back, I told him that I do not consider myself to be "oppressed" because I am gay. If anything, I consider myself to be honest in looking at who and what I am... Something most folks never accomplish their entire life. So if it is anyone who is oppressed, it is those who believe that such things as hate, indifference to pain and ignorance is ok to have.

I am not sure what this forum will truly hold for others; if they will learn from anything here or if positive change will truly come. I'd like to think this forum will never become confined so as to never reach its full potential. I'd like people to openly share their thoughts, their questions and whatnot. I'd like for straight people to feel free to explore who we are, both as individuals and as a group of people and our history. And I'd like to see threads posted from a wide range of people, rather than only a few common ones... Moreover, I'd like to see other GLBT people on board... what harm can come from being open in a format that so easily hides your idenity? These are my goals for this forum and maybe over time such will come to be in the light of great success. But for now, I want to thank those who do come by, to read, to ponder and to share... Thank you very much!

Chris

Chris,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts...

I do also hope that many members will ask questions and participate in this forum. Raising awareness is important and we will continue to post stories to do that, but please don't be afraid to come here and ask a question...

you guys think of ever thing. :)

Thank you for this Chris !!! :)

I'm sorry you had so many problems with your parents !!! Reading you make me realize how lucky I am to be fully accepted as I am by both my dad and mom.


Phil

Chris, I am as well sorry that you had a hard time with your parents. That saddens me. Your a wonderful man. Dont let any one tell you any diffrent

I think the point that Teb, Phil and I are trying to make here is not that any of us want pitty from anyone... pitty only desensitizes the problems by redirecting the positive probelm solving opportunities. Rather, we want people to understand our [the GLBT community] plights for justice, quests for freedom and need for equality in being able to love another.

It is not so simple of a problem that one can merely solve it by saying... If I can kiss my man, why can't you kiss yours". Because the problems are so deeply rooted by those who believe they are somehow superior because they are straight or have power over another...that it requires to be educated about the biases, hate factors, prejudices and intentional and even the unintentional discriminations imposed. Yet, it also requires straight people changing their belief systems and the way they communicate to their children, friends, family and yes, even to GLBT people. It can only come about when straight people are willing to expose their lack of understanding and their disapprovals on the foundation of wanting to learn about a different point of view, rather than only wanting to condem.

It is cool to disagree with another person's point of view or the way their life is lived...but it is not cool to hate or to base that disapproval upon unrealistic expectations, self imposed ignorance or the belief that one group is a lower form than another.

Chris

I am not trying to show pity. But I would be lying if I said that my heart did not go out to any one that has been through what you have or any one esle. sorry, but I do care, sue me,lol i am teasing chris about the suing part

Hey Chris... I fully understaood everything you wrote.
I also remember when I finally came 'open' with my relationship with Sheila... I was disowned by my mother. I could not blame her for how she felt, and I couldn't hold it against her... I mean, she's in her 50's, and she was raised that homosexuality was just plain wrong.

It took about 6 months of not communicating with my ma, before we finally starting talking again.
I can remember all the stares, the snide remarks, the pointing and whispers... It was truly an eye opener. In prison, it was the norm, but once I was out in society again.... well, my relationship was no longer acceptable!

Jodygirl

lulu:

Chill out sweetie (((hugs)))).... [not to change the subject here... but] whatever happened to kenneth... don't see him around here much or posts from him... and now that everyone and their brother here knows I am gay... let me just say... yep, he's cute he he

Jody:

Thanks for the input, much needed from one who has been there personally...let me ask you this though... Why do you think that it is more accepted in female prisons that it is in male prisons...from your own point of view. I have watched documentaries and read books that really show the openness and acceptance that many female offenders find, whereas with men, it is very much the opposite... Please share everything you want on this, as I am very interested in having a gay female/ex-incarcerted person's point of view.. by the way, do you prefer lesbian or is gay female cool?

For many years I thought my mom was my supporter and in many ways she grew to be...but about a year ago, mom said something to me that actually shocked me, because for mom it was anything but the norm of how she has been in my being gay... she actually started with the bible thumping crap and said some rather mean things. I don't think it was her intent to be mean or to hurt me... but then I also think that parents do not always think about what they say to their kids or how it may be interpreted when it comes to gay matters or just in general.... attacking someone because simply because their sexuality is different can create some rather unique walls or resistence that often times places distance between the two people.

The first long term relationship I had with a guy was with Michael, an Italian Stud as I called him... yet, one of the most nicest people you would ever meet... He was always willing to lend a helping hand to others and to stand up for the underdog... His parents, espeically his mom thought I "converted" her dear sweet child... give me a break.

Michael ended up having full blown AIDS and forwhatever reason in God's wisdom, I was spared this horbile disease. Michael ended up committing suicide by overdosing on his insulin, in part, because he held this belief that he would only be that much more of a shame upon his family and a burden in the end.... I hated his family for many years... for their hate, for their ignorance, for taking Micahel away from me by their unwillingness to show him love to accept him for who and what he is... On several occasions, his mom would try to have Michael committed to a psych unit, believing that being gay was a mental disease that could be cured with shock therapy... On one occasion she actually succeed in her insantity. So much hate filled my heart, so much hate for her, for the world, for everyone... I wanted to lash out, to cry, to scream, and yet, I could not, I dared not, so in the end I burried it all inside of me...

I remember getting the call early in the morning from a friend of mine who worked at the hospital, telling me that Michale was there... I cannot begin to describe what I felt inside... When I arrived, his mom was there in all here insane glory and commanded that the "fag" [me] not be allowed to see her son. I never got to say good bye before he finely died sixteen days later and it was not until six months later that I was finely able to get past the family walls to attend the funeral... they kept Michael on ice for six months to ensure I would not find out about his funeral... but in the end, I went anyway... Standing alone among his rather large family... you know, his mom actually had the audasity to come up to me and want to give me a hug... took about all I had not to put my fist down her throat because of my own hatered for her and the pain she caused Michael... In the end, they cremated Michael and burried his ashes on his dad's ranch... to make sure I could never retun and visit him.

His dad and I never got along, since the day he accidently received flowers and a love card from me that was suppose to go to Michale... a friend of mine hand dilvered them to where Michale worked, which was were his dad also worked and because they have the same names, my friend gave his dad the flowers and love card... I busted out laughing when I found out... his dad didn't, but Michale sure as hell did LOL. It was, I think, the only time [though by complete accident] that a little revenge was paid upon his dad and what a gloryous day that was... lol

Chris

Patch, Teb and Phil.... May God Bless you for your stories.... I would never pity you because I have found that gay and lesbian people are the most sensitive and loving folks in the world....

My 1st Cousin's son is Gay...He is the love of my life... He plays piano and sings like an angel... He is Choir director of his Church..

My husbands sister is lesbian. She too is a wonderful personality even tho she takes on a male trait...

I love all of you and would never, never degrade you... You are very special people

My Love
Donna

Donna

Thanks for your kind words and your friendly care and support.

And welcome to the GLBT forum :)

Love
Phil

Anybody can feel free to post here in the GLBT forum. I like when others post who aren't gay, because this forum isn't only for the gays only. Shoot we can talk about anything here dealing with gay issues in prison/out of prison from every angle. I can't say anything about my parents because they had a hard time at first, but time has seasoned them to acceptance of me. They love me and that's all that matters. I don't talk about my lifestyle to them out of respect to how they feel as my parents. I will respect them because for the most part, they accept and respect me. Sure my father don't like that I am gay, but he has dealt with it better than I thought he would, especially with his old school stereotypes. The road wasn't easy always, but what in life is? I am just plain ol me....simple as that. I really don't think about the fact that I am gay until I start talking about it. Going through grade school, military (USMC), etc.....you just go with the flow. I guess I got used to keeping it to myself. I am proud of who I am as a person.....gay or straight, crooked or upside down! :)

Chris.. I wish I had an easy answer for what you asked.


"...let me ask you this though... Why do you think that it is more accepted in female prisons that it is in male prisons...from your own point of view. "

I don't know! How's that for an answer? lol :)
I suppose, in general, being a gay woman is more socially acceptable... Maybe it's because many straight men 'love' this idea, or maybe it's because of all the pornography... I have no idea!

What I do know, is from the first day I got to prison, I seen all these couples together... and it was 'ok'. No, not by the CO's or anything, but by the other inmates. I was blown away! In one of the prisons I was at, we had several female guards that were gay.... Not openly of course, but you just 'knew'... and that made for a lighter environment too!

I think one of the biggest problems that faces the gay men and women today, is that people are scared of things that they know nothing about! All the hatred, the jealousy, the disgust... I think every bit of it stems from fear and lack of knowledge! (IMO).

Got side tracked there....
While it is alot more acceptable in women's prisons, that doesn't mean that's it's 'right' in the eyes of many. Amongst ourselves, everything was good... but many of the guards shunned us for being gay. I seen many people get made fun of, take the sharp remarks, get punished, and the list goes on... in reality, just for being with another woman.
Unfortunately... there are similar crimes that happen in women's prison... like the rape. I seen, on more than one occassion, a woman get dragged in the shower... or behind a building. So, it is more acceptable... but many of the same things are endured!

Jodygirl

hey Chris, he is a cutie huh? lol now wtahc it, he is all mine,,lol i am teasing,.

He has been so busy, you know ow being on parole is. na this, gang glasses this,,,lol sheesh. he is around though.

i am chilled out. :):)

am i naive and stupid and seemingly simpleminded if i say that i really don't particularly care if a person is gay or straight? honestly, the only time in my life that it has ever "mattered" to me was when i started "liking" a guy and he told me "sorry, i'm gay..." and then i said "okay" and was bummed out a little and got over it. he didn't even have to tell me why he wasn't interested, but he did. i hear people "complaining" about glbt folks and all i can ask is "well, why do you care so much?" i just have more important things to worry about than who someone is in love with...lol, hope i don't sound "callous."

xo
em

Let me see if I can address emme's comments/questions first and try to correlate them to Jody's... so as not to be perceived as speaking about unrelated prison issues in this forum and be penalized as a result.

I think emme that you are among the exceptions that do exist in our culture. I do not beleive you are stupid or even niave.. only accepting, which makes you apart of a beauty in its totality. For the vast majority of straight men, in my opinion, I think it reverts back to the fears associated that seem to attack at their manlihood by their own perceptions. As well as an over-extended ego that every gay man wants them... if only they knew lol.

Jody, (and I'm not sure I'll say this right). I think one possibility for this is that because women are far more intune with their emotions and emotional needs. They do not consume themselves with the boundaries that men frequently impose upon themselves and other men. Thus the "need to love and be loved" is far more recognized and accepted openly by women than it is by men.

I think in male prison, the emphasis in having sex is on the physical act...for the momentary self-gratification and not on any emotional aspect. Thus, the emphasis is not about having a "relationship", but about fulfilling a human need at that moment. And to discuss such things afterwards, gives the preception that it was enjoyed and liked...thereby equating them with the notion that they are gay, which in turn may be perceived as being a target.

Historically, men have long since lived a double standard when it comes to homosexual issues.... on the one hand, they condem the gay man. Claiming it is discusting and so forth, while on the other hand, finding arrousal by gay women. It holds no logic by definitions, but achieves its perception because men are driven by the physical, rather than the intellectual/emotional in many ways.

When it comes to having sex with a "gay man" in prison, as opposed to a "straight man". I personally think there is the perception that it is more acceptable because of the gay factor involved that somehow rationalizes things so as to carry out an illusion of ones prejudice and for some, their illusion that they are actually straight, rather than bi or gay themselves.

Now, I have no clue if any of this makes sense, as it is not an easy subject to discuss, especially when I have been restricted from giving certain examples and degrees therein in this forum, of "hate crimes" against the GLBT population and the amount and type of "discrimination" existing. But hopefully you get the general idea of what I am talking about.

Chris

chris,

i think your analysis is quite apt. thank you.

emme

Chris... I do believe that the emotional part of a relationship plays a huge role in the female relationships.
There is an emotional tie between women that is sometimes overwhelming, and the 'sex' isn't even a major part of the relationship.

I seen more times than I can count, that a woman came into the prison straight. After spending weeks, months, years in the system... they would tend to 'experiment'. By no means am I saying, "they turned gay"... But it was the emotional support I think they were longing for. And once they found that, (for there are really some strong bonds formed in the womens prison... or atleast the ones I was as), then they would take things to the next level. While the emotional aspect was the initial reason to have an 'interest' in another woman... the physical would soon follow. For many, I believe it was simply 'needing' someone to be there for them physically.... and since there were no men readily available, they went with their only option... another woman.

Am I making any sense here? :)

And yea, this is where it turns complicated for men. It is much easier for a woman to address her emotional needs... while the 'macho man' will stand firm in saying, "I don't think so." And so...you are correct. The emotional part of womens relationships is what makes it so much more acceptable, easy to do, and easy to understand.

Jodygirl

Jody,,, by far, you said it much better than I did... thank you for making sense out of what I was trying to say...

Chris

I'm meddling now.

In KY,... (unlike the happy documentaries about florida and the southwest...) women do not skip the yard hand in hand.
Inappropriate touching...--denoted as any touching-- will get you a write up.

I've said before that there were (at the time I was in) exactly 9 truly straight women in all of the prison. By the same token there were probably exactly 9 truly gay women in the place too. It matters not to me who anyone cares to diddle with, but I must say that it really ticked off the truly gay women that so many people were impersonating them.
I used to kid one that she was posted up on the yard loop bench that would give her the best view of the newbie unit, I told her that the A/C Talent Search was underway.
She'd say, if they don't come here gay, I've got no use for 'em. I'd rather spend my money on someone who KNOWS 'what time it is'...

Lifelong gay people there are all about the emotion and the being that is inherent to their orientation, if they are well adjusted at all. That is a good, decent, rational thing that benefits the person they engage in a relationship with.

The other folks,.... (Jody...tell me if you've heard this before)
in Fl.. before extradition, a vet told me about the "necessary Commissary'... She mentioned it to explain why person x was working person y.
Upstate KY I referred to some of these people as lesbians of convenience. Though I find it hard to fathom how your sexual orientation changes with your zip code... it seems to happen.

What really, basically happens is that where some very few may just discover themselves...-- more are fairly emotionally retarded and what passes for 'gay love' up there with them was just as abusive (emotionally/physically) as perhaps any other relationship that they'd had with a man in their life.

I've seen women be scolded, badmouthed or slapped by their 'lover' for offering a match to someone. The level of percieved obsessive, possessiveness is just irrational and abusive. Some women who show up in prison have 5 kids (in 5 different locations) and are just 21. Prison is the first time in their adult lives when they don't have to be a mommy to anyone, when they've got all the time to concentrate on themselves, or on whatever pleases them. Jody is right in that there is something to be said for the community in a women's prison, but a little attention and a little flattery doesn't necessarily add up to love. When it's seasoned with irrationality it's abusive.

It was an experience being the token straight. Turns out that I served a purpose after all. If someone's 'husband' got called to visiting, or someone's 'wife' got an earlier canteen time, both would rather be able to say that they waited in line with me, or sat down to lunch with me, than to have to report something different when they'd be questioned... And they WOULD be questioned,... and if they hadn't chosen me or 'my kind'..... someone who'd like to be in the mix would have run off and 'told' it.

Can I get an amen, Jody?

Amen Life!!!