I am curious to know how you are treated on your visits. I feel that most...probable 90% of the CO are ignorant and obnoxiuos. In most states you are alllowed one kiss/embrace at the beginning and at the end of your visit. So, do your show physical affection....kissing, holdong hands, etc. and if so how are you treated by the CO's and other inmates? At the last place my guy was in there was a gay couple. They visited every week and every week I saw their love through their expressions. They never kissed hello or held hands...just hugged. I asked him why? I mean that IS his man and shit he needs to kiss him! My guy said that he's not sure and maybe it's something they decided or something that they did that was not accepted and they were told to stop or maybe they just felt uncomfortable. So I wonder...what are your visits like?

bella,

I just posted some of what I experience but I will share it here too because this will deal with just visits.

We (Teddy and I) are very lucky. He is very stubborn and his attitude is that the time we spend in the visiting room is OUR time and if you can kiss M then he (Teddy) can kiss me! I just about fell over the first time out of fear! I am not afraid to be openly gay, but kissing in public outside of a gay area of town is just a little dangerous - and then you look around the visiting room and you really wonder if you are doing the right thing?

But in any case, Teddy pushed the limit and to this point we are ok.

We hug and kiss on entry and exit from the visit. During the visit we always (unless playing cards) sit side by side. We do touch and do whatever is acceptable within the rules of the room while we are sitting. We don't however hold hands. The occasional rub on the back of the hand or arm... We do sit with our arm around the back of the chair when we are side by side. We used to be able to sort of rub the back a bit but that is not allowed anymore. You can have your arm around your Partner but you cannot move it! OMG! Like something is going to happen if you rub your palm on his back??? Anyway, we are always careful to follow the rules. The other couples walk around and around in circles all day long arm in arm. This we don't do. Once we are in and sitting we try to just keep to ourselves and not bother anyone. Also - and this is my decision - there are usually a lot of little kids there. I don't want to openly hold hands and walk holding hands or with an arm around him for that reason. I am more concerned that someone will take offence with this behavior in front of a child than anything else. I am always sensitive to the children and what they see. You don't have to agree with my lifestyle and I can respect you for your opinion as long as you don't trip on me for being what I am. In the same sense, I try to be respectful of others and thier children so it does not become an issue.

The Guards seem to be cool with it. We do know that there are a couple that we would call homophobic, and Teddy loves it when they are in the back when the visit is over 'cause he never has to bend and cough when they are there! They make all the others do it but just wave him on by! LOL They do not however bother us! The Gurads in the room are always by the door when everyone is leaving and we will stand right beside one of them and hug and kiss. Never anything said. One of the visiting room Guards is a Lesbian and apparently she is open in the prison with this information. She comes over occasionally and talks to us. She even knows the city that I live in because she used to drive truck to Canada and her company's Canadian division is only 10 minutes south of where I live.

Other Prisoners don't even look! They are so into their own visits that at least they don't appear to look.

We have become 'the talk of the prison' to a certain extent! Teddy used to work in the chow hall and he would have Prisoners from other housing units approach him that he had never talked to before and they would ask him about me and tell him that they respected him for 'doing his thing' and making a stand. Several have told him that if he ever is hassled because of this to come to them and they will support him!

All in all, we have had a very good experience! Very good. I do wonder however how long this will last? I am a positive person by nature but cannot help but think that the s**t will hit the fan one day? Hope not! Teddy actually has said that he is very very surprised that the administration has never brought the subject up to him! I am listed as his Significant Other and introduce myself as such. I even find that the case workers talk to me and answer my questions on the phone when I call.

That is my story! Keep your fingers crossed that it will continue to be so good!

Unfortunately we are the exception to the rule! Others that I know of do not have the same good experiences.

I agree with Teddy 1000% If I can kiss my man he can kiss you....I'm glad he does and I'm sure you are too ;)
I guess I can understand your concern for the children, that it may create problems for you guys...but my feelings about that are if their parents/caretakers are offended by it...they are the ones with the problem...NOT YOU! I hope to have children one day and teach them that love comes in many varieties...all of them wonderful! IMO Those who do not teach their children about the rest of the world are setting them up for a rude awakening in the future. Offended by your behavior...of holding hands...Teb I understand where you are comming from...don't get me wrong but these types of people really aggrivate me!!! there is NO excuse for ignorance!
I am soooo glad to hear that the CO's respect your lifestyle just as they would any other ...as well as the caseworkers...I believe this will continue!!!!
Thanks for your explaination.
HUGS

I am glad - I am very glad. I take home with me that kiss and hug that I am sure you do too! If I did not have that or had to give it up it would be even more painful than it is now. Without at least that I am not sure if the bond we have would be as strong - it is like a promise.

:( :( :( Well I guess I've nothing to say in this thread !!!

Anyway, it's a great thread Bella, and I'll enjoy the answers of the others. One day I'll be able to post my own answer !!! :)

Love
Phil

Philippe!

YES - you will. Have faith! It will happen!

The day you arrive in Florida we will have a party!

Teb

Thank you for always being there to cheer me up !!! You're sweet !! :)

The day Phillipe gets to Florida, I'm gonna have to be there too...I gotta meet him! :)

I'm extremely happy to know that the situation isn't as ignorant as one might think given the scenery.

I have a friend back home who is openly gay. He was chastized by his coworkers for being so. His long term boyfriend would meet him at work and they would kiss and hug...one of his coworkers was so brazen as to key his car with that oh so lovely F word that when I hear makes me run to the nearest brass knuckle to assist in applying gross physical harm to that ignorant beast...

I digress...

It took YEARS for him to FINALLY be accepted and it only happenned when his new boss stepped in. She was extremely kind (we went to lunch often, the three of us) and she one day walked into work and said "I'm getting married, you're all invited" and in walked her fiance. A simply gorgeous woman of Jackie O style and grace. Floored by that, everyone instantaneously understood that hatred could not be based upon a person's lifestyle.

Odd...the book by the cover cliche...but it's true.

Phil...when you get to Florida I will be waiting at the airport to greet you with 2 big kisses...one for u and one for cousin Joey...of course I won't kiss you the way you'll kiss him....but kiss you I will ;)

TEBKRJ I do agree with Bella if we can kiss our men then why can't you. I'm glad to hear that your visits are pleasant. I must say that I have never seen a gay couple on a visit before and don't know how I would react. I probably would not pay it any mind. I must thank you though for the respect you show the visiting children that is really great. I bring my son to see his father and I don't think I would want him seeing two men kissing or two women for that matter. I just don't think it's approriate for my 2 year old.

yanigirl:

Please understand that I am not trying to be "attacking" here by any means whatsoever in regards to what you had to say and most of what I will say here is more in the general sense. And for whatever its worth, I am glad that you offered your opinions, because I think it touches a very important point in all our discussions about being gay and what we expereince, both in our personal lives, as well as with our incarcerated mates. So to this, THANK YOU for bringing this up.

I ask however that you read your post and then think about why gay men cannot have the freedom to openly show their love to their mates in the same manner that heterosexuals can and do while visiting their loved ones.

I think many people [in general] sometimes use their kids to somehow justify their own disapproval or their lack of understanding, accpetance, or beliefs. I cannot say this is always done because the adult "hates" GLBT people, though sometimes I think it is certainly a possibility. But as a gay man, I can see and have seen the many harms that rise as a result. What can be a golden opportunity to teach children not to be prejudice, to hate, to discriminate and so forth, is often times turned into an opportunity to force GLBT people to live in the closet that much more. To forcibly hide their love and their need to express that love. So I have to ask, when exactly is it ok for GLBT people to have the same rights, the same freedoms and the same expressions of love as heterosexuals have?

I think too many people in our society look upon gay men as sexual perverts; capable of only being preditors of children, merely because we are gay. Or that our hugging or kissing our mates, or even walking down the street holing the hand of our mate. Is somehow going to "recruit" or "convert" or traumatize kids and even adults for that matter. It is a stigma that has never and most likely will never be taken away. Yet, it is anything but the truth in the totality of our community and who we are as humanbeings that need to be free to express our love.

Chris

Yanigirl,

Thanks for giving your opinions and welcome to the GLBT forum.

Like Chris, I value all opinions, and don't want to attack or offend anyone with mine.

Anyway, if I may say something, I'm rather amazed by what you think is shocking for a kid. Obviously, you take him to prison to visit his dad, and as you said in one of your posts, your neighborhood is full of junkies, and the fact that he could see 2 men or 2 women kissing each other would be, according to you, inappropriate. That's surprizing.

This may or may not make sense, but it does to me... and it has to do with 'the kiss'...

First of all, I choose to down play the physical contact between my Partner and I when in the visiting room so as not to attract too much attention - that is my choice. I don't choose to rock the boat too much because I don't want to lose what I have. I will not however give up the kiss at the beginning or end of the visit no matter how many kids are there. Typically I am the one of the first to enter the visiting room and one of the last to leave. Most kids arrive later and leave long before visiting ends...

Kids are generally more accepting and are definitely open minded - their prejudices are learned from the rest of us. I am not afraid of what the kids will think but how the adult will react. This is why I choose to down play during the visit.

I will add to Phil's comment... I owned a video rental store for a number of years and I was always shocked that parents would not allow (Even when the family watched together) their kids to watch any movie with consentual sexual content but had no problem (generally speaking) with anything violent. I am not talking about sexual content that is pornagraphic, but content that is consentual and part of the story. Not explicit either... Parents routinely surprised me by saying to me that their kids could watch all the violence that they wanted but nothing with sex in it. Sex - or making love - is natural. Violence is hate. I cannot help but think that innocently we are misdirecting our kids and their outlook during their informative years. Just an opinion.

Teb:

I understand what you are saying and point out that you are making a conscious choice of your own... that is different from what I was saying insofar as parents sometimes using their kids so as to somehow justify why we 'gays' should not kiss, hug, hold hands etc. Personally, I do question the extent that a young child is even going to understand, let alone be "traumatized" by two men or two women kissing or even hugging one another. But all too frequently, they are used by adults and by their parents as the reason we should hide our love.

I wouldn't normally kiss in public anyways. I think it boils down to what we as individuals are willing to do. I wouldn't kiss in public......some gays may not like my action (or nonaction I should say) but it's just the way I am. It really just depends on the given moment and time. Love might get us to the point where we won't give a damn anymore. Now if I am visiting Tim, I will DEFINITELY not kiss him or hold his hand. Our reasons are kind of two-fold. Tim's reputation in the prison is upheld and I am too chicken for that. But we don't hug for the same reason ( because of Tim's reputation he wants to maintain) and I am trying to get Tim to at least do that. Hugging wouldn't make me feel uncomfortable. We both do wish we could kiss sometimes ....you know like a little peck or gather close up under one another, but we don't. We were even nervous to go take a picture together. I always think that women can detect love a mile away, whether it's 2 men, a man and a woman, or 2 women!! And there are too many women with their men looking real hard and communicating what they are sensing to their boyfriends or husbands. I think women just got these automatic antenna to pick it up in the chemistry that's felt. Gay people got the same capability.....maybe even moreso in some instances......so that's why we are nervous when it comes to pictures. I don't believe in being something that I am not and neither does he, and taking pictures would reveal the real us. We already got enough eyes on us anyways because of our racial difference, and we don't want to top it off with love gestures in our photos. One high ranking guard or prison personnel asked Tim where did he know me from when I left one day. Tim told him that I went to highschool with him and that he loves all people regardless of their skin color.

Pookie...

I am sorry about the pictures! I understand the other - about hugging and kissing and I would never suggest that you do that unless both of you are very comfortable with it...

But the pictures... I have seen many 'guys' - straight guys - have pics taken in the visiting room! I have even seen interracial friends have pics taken... I don't see what standing side by side would tell anyone more so than you sitting together for the visit. It would be so nice for you to get a picture taken together...

I guess that really one of the purposes of this GLBT Forum overall is to discuss and expose some of these issues...

I am going to use Pookie as an example here... (Sorry Pookie) These two are in love and they are even afraid to hug in the visiting room for fear of retaliation and loss of reputation... This is just wrong! I know that it will be a long while before we are free of this fear and it may never completely go away - especially behind the walls - but we can continue to build awareness and grow acceptance a little at a time...

I think it is a shame that anyone is treated different because of who they Love. I don't and have never liked the gay thing, headro,straight, liesbien labels. What the heck is the difference you love who you love.
I was talking to a very Dear friend the other day and she said I thought I was straight until I met......, I said what you stand at an angle now.:) I said I hate the labels, you Love who you Love.
Phil and Teb are good examples I love them both to death and would do anything in the world for them. Not because of who they love, but because of who they are.
Geez Tracy was a cop killer and I loved him with every breath. If who you chose to Love and be with makes you less human then I must be crazy, because I think it sucks.

As far as my daughter, you all know I love her to death. But as she grows she will know about same sex partnerships. I don't understand why some think that will hurt her. I do not believe that her knowing and seeing Love good love in any forum can hurt her only make her more loving. If when she grows up, she happens to fall in Love with another women, she will have her Mom behind her 100% as long as her Love is a caring and good person to her. When we have a loved one it is a partnership no matter what sex we are.

It tears my heart out when I hear stories like Pookies, when people really Love each other and out of fear they can't show it. There is so much hate in the world and to have true Love smashed makes me sick.

Ok I'll shut up now I could go on for hours on this, it ticks me off to know end.

softie

Softie,

I only wish that others felt the way that you do! Your daughter is so lucky to have you as a Mom! Your words are very special to me and I am sure to Philippe as well!

You said it all when you said - 'as long as her love is a careing and good person...' that is all that matters. Love matters...

Thanks Softie! I love you too!

You are right Teb LOVE is what is important.
Parents push our beliefs on our children without really meaning to. Children aren't born predijustice againist anything, we teach them. I remember when my son was young my Dad always talked about his brother Bill. One day when my son was 5 he met Bill and Bill shook his hand. my son said man you are tall. It didn't dawn on him my dad was white and Bill was black.

That is the way my daughter will be raised, that we are all human and maybe one day she can help change the world.

Teb thank you for saying my daughter is lucky to have me as a Mom, that means more to me then I could ever tell you.

Love and Hugs
softie

Teb, I am real glad you use me as an example!! :) And you are right about me taking pictures. I should not be nervous about that at all, but I can't help it. And I shouldn't be nervous to hug him either. I am so doggon paranoid, that the very thing I worry of probably wouldn't enter in nobody's mind. We tried so hard to get up there, and out of 4 long days of visiting, we STILL didn't get the nerve!! We were close to doing so a few times, but it never went forward. I told him that we should take pictures as soon as I arrive there to see him before a lot of people start coming in to visit. That way, we won't be as nervous with just a handful of people sitting there watching. Maybe next visit, we will have more balls. :D

Softie, I also think you are a very good mother for how you choose to raise your child. I guess everyone raises their children differently. But by your approach, prejudice will less likely be an issue, and your children will be flexible and open to anything. Nothing will come as a surprize to them.

Pookie; Thank you very much, that means a lot to me.

softie

HI Phil In Paris I would first like to say that I never said I live in a neighborhood full of junkies you seem to have misunderstood. I would like to say that I'm not homophobic as I have friends who are gay and lesbian. I do however have a problem with it being displayed infront of children. It was mentioned that I can take that time to teach my child not to dicriminate well my son is only two and does not know discriminate from his elbow. However he can see if two people are kissing or holding hands and I can't explain to him why in Gods name is it two men or two women. I don't want my child to see this type of thing taking place and thinking it's right. I have to say I as a mother would not want that for my child. The only problem is when is it ok to show your mate love as I understand you are only human. I would have to say try to save it for adult based scenes like at a night club, a movie, a adult based restaurant, behind closed doors.I know this may sound harsh but I must be honest. I once again have no problem with your lifestye but would rather children not view anything of an intimate nature.

I have to say that I am with softheart on this one. I know that I didn't raise my son with any conditions on who he should love. I raised him to treat others as he wanted to be treated whether they are gay or what.

hi,
When i go to visit my girlfriend, she is very hestitant of giving me a hug! It wouldnt matter if it was her mom or other firends. She feels as thou the COs or other inmates will give her a hard time if she hugs me. There isnt any phsyical affection. But we show what we are feeling with our eyes. She said to me yesterday that she didnt wnat to give me a kiss because she didnt "want to get beat up." then the damn straight people shouldnt be hugging and kissing as well!!

erin

erin,

You know that I feel - really feel - that if you are in love it is going to show just in the way your talk and look at each other and interact in general... It is a shame that you can not at least hug... I don't want to 'push' anything that either of you are uncomfortable with but how would it be any different if it were a friend or family member... I see lots of straight guys hug when they come to visit - some are brothers, some are fathers... they don't seem to care...

It is a tough situation and I have to say that your girlfriend is teh one that has to make this decision because she knows the mood of the prison. She knows what will fly and what will not... She has to be comfortable with it because she has to live with the aftermath... hopefully there won't be any...