Seenitall
That guy that testified on behalf of Corby and the information that he gave over to the courts, will he be able to be in some kind of protective custody, where he wont get harmed. Its like a catch 22, from what I have read, that she is facing the Death penalty in Bali, but his life is now at risk from testifying. It just left me curious. What he did was a good thing, but its scary that his life may now be at risk in Australia.

Thankyou for the question Kyla

Funny you raised this point because we have just received a copy of the updated Correction Act . The updated Act now reflects legislation to allow a prisoner to leave Australia to give evidence. This is probably why it took so long to get him there because there was no legislation to cover it at the time.

As far as you original question, On the face of it, he is not on the most serious of charges although it can incur a heavy penalty just the same. The fact that he named the person responsible for the drugs would be of concern given that prisoners within their own code don't like "Giveups" and I would suspect that he will be put in some form of protective regime upon his return to prison.

I would also expect that given the evidence he gave , and the fact that this has been so political , that the DOJ would not oppose a suspended sentence of one sought or another, whereby if something were to happen to him after that on the outside they would not be involved and could not be held responsible

In my opinion , Miss Corby will not get the death sentence,but I don't believe that she will be found innocent either. That country has to ensure that the nations pride in relation to drug smuggling and the hard line approach taken by its Government is not deminished by their decision and I would expect that she will be sentenced to a lengthy prison term regardless.

Down the track, again in my opinion , once things calm down , their president , Governor whatever , will I suspect allow her to return to Australia to serve the unexpired portion of her sentence , one would hope so anyway.

I am only speculating though Kyla, this is unfolding in a different country and anything could happen.

Thanks again for your question , keep them coming

He's going to need protective custody when he gets back to Australia. For dobbing in other inmate/s he wouldn't be too welcome back at his old jail.

As far as you original question, On the face of it, he is not on the most serious of charges although it can incur a heavy penalty just the same. The fact that he named the person responsible for the drugs would be of concern given that prisoners within their own code don't like "Giveups" and I would suspect that he will be put in some form of protective regime upon his return to prison.

I would also expect that given the evidence he gave , and the fact that this has been so political , that the DOJ would not oppose a suspended sentence of one sought or another, whereby if something were to happen to him after that on the outside they would not be involved and could not be held responsible

Well just an update , I was right on the money with this one, read in the paper this morning that he is in protective custody and it appears that that the Department of Public Prosecutions is not opposing an application from him for his sentence to be significantly reduced. Having said that his original charges were worse than I thought but he looks like getting off with almost no penalty.

Seenitall
His in protective custody now, but what happens when he gets out. Is it possible for a prisoner to go on like a "witness protection program" where his identity can be kept quiet after he leaves corrections?

Hi Kyla!!!Great to hear from you


In answer to your question , I don't believe he will enter into a protection program, I think at this point we will see a best selling book worth millions and television exclusives worth mega bucks, he won't need our protection he will be able to afford his own.

The DOJ will undoubtable want rid of him as soon as possible especially if she is sentenced to death his safety will only be assured if he cuts other prisoners in on the proceeds he will make from the interviews etc:,and I would also suspect that the person he named will also have his hand out , given that he passed the lie detector test and can now sue for damaged under defamation laws.

The really distastful part of this all, is that an Aussie girl is sitting in some filthy prison awaiting her fate whilst others are riding on her back for the almighty dollar , the whole thing disgusts me, and I for one hope she is cleared and gets to come home, I think that even if she had a part in the whole thing she has been punished enough. You know my feelings on the death penalty already, hasn't there been enough killing a blood shed over the years, why can't we learn from our mistakes and stop this insanity.

Seenitall
I TOTALLY AGREE!! I pray she doesnt get the death penalty there, do you remember a show AGES ago, with Nicole Kidman in it called Bangkok Hilton? I remember that so well, it had me in tears from start to finish. Even though it was a Thailand prison the conditions I would say would be similar. I hope that her name is cleared, and she is allowed to come home to Australia. What a nightmare for her family and friends and loved ones to.

They are now saying that the prosectution is not seeking the death penalty if she is convicted.
Hopefully she will be cleared of all charges.
Ford did not give out any other inmates name, for fear of his life.

Thats great news, and I hope she gets to come home , but I have a feeling that they are not going to let her, see that country will have to save face a bit on this one and I still believe that she will get a few years behind bars before they strike a deal with Australia allowing her to come home, unfortunately this is now political, but if she beats the death penalty theres room for celerbration all round.

And as to Kyla's question yes I did see that film and I agree with you , conditions over there would be horrible and I feel for her, and you know something else thats strange ,at times when I think about her plight it's as though I am part of her family and I'm stressing about it to, is that normal!!!!!!!

Seenitall
I am the same way, I stress about her getting the death penalty there as well, I really hope for a good outcome. I stress whenever I hear anyone getting the death penalty or an execution date.

The camel suit incident will strengthen her case that it was slipped into her baggage.

Camel Suit incident from the Austalian Broadcasting Corporations website.

The Qantas baggage handler who took a camel suit out of a man's bag and wore it on the tarmac at Sydney airport has been sacked.

Yesterday Qantas stood down the person believed to be responsible, pending an investigation.

Qantas says the incident was caught on closed-circuit-television and confirmed the identity and actions of the worker.

Passenger David Cox was waiting to board his Qantas flight when he saw a baggage handler wearing the costume.

He says he was shocked to realise his luggage had been interfered with.

"It's the kind of larrikin thing that an Australian would do, but given the current situation, particularly with Schapelle Corby, the issues of airport security and privacy and your luggage remaining secure, it's obviously a poor decision," Mr Cox said.

"I obviously was flabbergasted, my jaw dropped to the ground," he added.

Accused drug smuggler Schapelle Corby's legal team says it is considering how to introduce the incident as evidence in her case.

The Gold Coast businessman who is financing Corby's defence of drug trafficking charges in Bali, says the incident is further evidence of airline staff interfering with the baggage of passengers.

The camel suit incident will strengthen her case that it was slipped into her baggage.

Agreed!!!! it does prove how easy it would be to insert something into someone bag at the airport, I hope they accept it as evidence and let her go so she can come home, to Aus

THATS AWFUL!! I am travelling this month, I think I will my double paddlocks for my bags :(

I moved the posts out of questions and answers and started a discussion thread on what is happening in the Corby Case. I know all us Australians are following this and we want to discuss it :D

Kyla ,is there any archive information on PTO where this has been discussed before about different cases or does anyone on PTO have any information on how many other Australians have been detained or been given the death penalty over there, I remember the Barlo and Chamberlin case and both were sentenced to death because they allegedly had drugs found not sure if it was the same asian country though.

I dont believe there is any archives about this. I do remember Barlow and Chambers though, and followed that case as well. That is my first encounter and the first time I really did hear about the death penalty as well.

For all those who intend to travel abroad, I would strongly recommend that you purchase different coloured zip ties for your bags. Once customs have finished with your bags
(Departure) seal the bags with the zip ties. On viewing your bags at (Destination) as soon as you become aware that a zip tie has been tampered with, don't touch the bag have a witness and please call security.

In the Corby case if this safety procedure was adopted the poor girls would be having the time of her life over there instead of fighting for her life.

I have recommended this to a friend of mine to ensure that she is safe when she goes oversees , wouldn't like anything to happen to her and I would like to see anything happen to you

Take care and be careful, one more thing , if they want to open your bag in between agree , but once their finished make sure you reseal the bags yourself with the ties you have purchased.

In my opinion , Miss Corby will not get the death sentence,but I don't believe that she will be found innocent either. That country has to ensure that the nations pride in relation to drug smuggling and the hard line approach taken by its Government is not deminished by their decision and I would expect that she will be sentenced to a lengthy prison term regardless.



Australia and Indonesia have also agreed to begin talks on a prisoner transfer agreement. Ellison said there were about 11 Australians in jailin Indonesia and more than 30 Indonesians imprisoned in Australia.

(source: Reuters)


Well my prediction seems to be right, I honestly believe now that she will not get the death penalty and as per my original statement she will do a long term in confinement. The tone of the second quote by the Aus Government indicates that they are now going for the best deal , and she will have to do a few years over there before being able to complete the unexpired portion of her sentence in Australia under the transfer agreement.
But I am concerned , she appeared to be very sick and not handling it very well, the amount of time she has to serve will depend on us, yes us!!
We have to let it die down , NO publicity, then through persistance in writing letters lobbying the governments in both countries, they are more likely to let her come home earlier, the last thing she will need is more publicity after the trial is over because the Government over there will have to maintain their appearance of a hard line approach to drugs.

Hello this is all interesting to read and it great to have support behind the poor darling, personally i dont believe she is guilty but hey im just a mother of 5 :o), i feel for her she has been going through a terrible time there, yesterday really shook her about no wonder she collasped, i pray she gets off and gets to come home she has had enough!!!!!

Ok so we've seen some movies and they're all pretty scary. I think I too cried to when I watched that Nicole Kidman gig. But let's face it, this woman (Miss Corby) was caught with a substantial amount of Cannabis L in her luggage. You can bet your bottom dollar that if an Indonesian national was intercepted at an Australian airport with that amount of drugs in their luggage, they would be on trial for drug importation here. Would we be then praying that he gets found not guilty? What if she's guilty? What if she knew about the drugs in her bag? Can we, as the public, really decide this trial based on what we see in the media? Doubtful. We have not seen all (or any, for that matter) of the evidence before the Indonesian court.

Indonesia has a legal system and Miss Corby is on trial in accordance with Indonesian law. She has been given a multi-member defence team, paid for and sponsored. She has been given consular access. All possible steps have been taken to ensure she gets a fair trial. If this trial results in a conviction then so be it. After all, it is for the court to determine whether or not she's guilty. It would seem that too many people have way too quickly jumped to the conclusion that Corby did not know about the drugs in her baggage.

It is not appropriate for the Australian Government to intervene in criminal proceedings in another country, if it recognises that that country has a justice system and is a sovereign state. Hence we have had very little intervention. Our Government is proceeding very carefully, and rightly so.

In the end, let the judges decide. That's what they're there for.

Indonesia has a legal system and Miss Corby is on trial in accordance with Indonesian law. She has been given a multi-member defence team, paid for and sponsored. She has been given consular access. All possible steps have been taken to ensure she gets a fair trial. If this trial results in a conviction then so be it. After all, it is for the court to determine whether or not she's guilty. It would seem that too many people have way too quickly jumped to the conclusion that Corby did not know about the drugs in her baggage.


Lightkeeper the points you have raised is valid upto a point.
we have heard from many people on the news that have personal experiences where upon reaching their travel destination have found drugs in their bags. We have seen an Australian prisoner testify as to how the drugs got into her bag, We have recently seen how easy it was for some to access a traveller bag at the air port as could be seen in recent news reports.

Your points in relation to that countries justice system is also valid and I don't think anyone has posted that the Corby case should not have gone to court nor have I read anywhere that anyone has suggested that she won't get a fair trial.

Every one is entitled to their own opinion, and mine is that she is innocent and one other thing to consider if their justice system finds her guilty and she is sentenced to death and eventually put to death, what happens if down the track , they find out she was indeed innocent , what then , OOP's we made a mistake!!, but she will be dead won't she but if we take what you are saying as being correct thats alright because she was found guilty wasn't she.

And one more point, if one of them was detected over here with drugs correct me if I am wrong , but we don't MURDER them in the name of justice. In law at least in this country it is upto the crown to prove the case "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" and no we weren't there to hear the evidence but in my mind and from what I know doubt exists in this case, This is a very political case now and as I have stated previously in my view that country will want to save face and they will find her guilty of this offence regardless of whether she is innocent or not,, so is it really a fair trail, yes now I am asking that question.

Seenitall,

Yes, we have seen some people talk about finding drugs in their luggage (personally I can't say I've seen "many" but one or two). These people may or may not be telling the truth. They may be trying to create positive publicity for Miss Corby, as one example. If they were serious, why didnt they come forward earlier, fly to Bali and give evidence in Corby's case?

Yes, we've seen John Ford (accused rapist) give hearsay evidence about what he apparently overheard between two prisoners whom he won't name. He subsequently appeared before Judge Roy Punshon asking for bail on the grounds that his life is in danger because he gave this evidence. I have little faith in Ford's evidence. In fact, he came forward AFTER Corby's defence (the rogue baggage handler theory) was published in Australian media. He bought himself a Bali trip, publicity (maybe will do a paid interview), a bail application, and grounds to ask for a substantial discount in sentence if convicted. Keep in mind that if the trial was held in Australia, Ford's evidence would not be lead at all as it is HEARSAY and therefore not admissible in our courts.

Your point about death penalty and subsequent finding of innocence is of course valid. It's valid in any death penalty case and is the only reason why, as a matter of principle, I am opposed to the death penalty. Again, this doesn't mean that Corby isn't guilty or that we should step outside due process (this means submissions in the Indonesian Court and not shady government negotiations) in determining the matter.

Your comment about murdering people in the name of justice also relates to the death penalty generally. Most Australians (even those agreeing with death penalty generally) disagree with its imposition for drug smuggling. Arguments can be mounted either way. Keep in mind that drugs kill people, cause many disorders (physical and psychological), affect the economy, promote violent crime etc etc etc. But I'm not here to justify death as a penalty for drugs, suffice to say that it's Indonesia's prerogative to impose it as part of its law.

I can't comment if a reasonable doubt exists. The Crown must prove each element of the offence beyond reasonable doubt. The court must take the entirety of the evidence into account in this process. We are not privy to the evidence and you can't rely on media coverage for this type of information. I have yet to see any court case that the media have covered with any degree of accuracy at all.

Indonesia knows that it won't save face by convicting Corby without proper evidence. It will lose face by doing so. The case is being watched very closely by various parties and a conviction based on dubious evidence will not be of any benefit to Indonesia's reputation. They know it.

In answer to your question , I don't believe he will enter into a protection program, I think at this point we will see a best selling book worth millions and television exclusives worth mega bucks, he won't need our protection he will be able to afford his own.

The DOJ will undoubtable want rid of him as soon as possible especially if she is sentenced to death his safety will only be assured if he cuts other prisoners in on the proceeds he will make from the interviews etc:,and I would also suspect that the person he named will also have his hand out , given that he passed the lie detector test and can now sue for damaged under defamation laws.

The really distastful part of this all, is that an Aussie girl is sitting in some filthy prison awaiting her fate whilst others are riding on her back for the almighty dollar , the whole thing disgusts me, and I for one hope she is cleared and gets to come home, I think that even if she had a part in the whole thing she has been punished enough. You know my feelings on the death penalty already, hasn't there been enough killing a blood shed over the years, why can't we learn from our mistakes and stop this insanity.

LightKeeper
I apologise for the tone of my previous post, but the very mention of the death penalty gets my back up, only for the reason I outlined that is what happens if they get it wrong!!!!

The structure of your post, indicates that you know what you are talking about and I respect your points of view and they are all valid and one could not argue the point, nor would I.

The only issue in relation to your post was in respect to the court and the political pressure being applied to it. Whilst I concede that it would not be an advantage to that country to find her guilty if reasonable doubt exists, but I believe that the court will find her guilty because that country will want to ensure that their justice system does not appear to be weak and a not guilty finding will leave it open to others to ask for the same decisions. I believe that the court will take into account the views of the general public over there as well, Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't there footage of people within that country chanting outside the court for the death penalty, thats the other pressure apart for the political which in my opinion will effect the decision of the court.

Is it fair or not, thats still open to debate.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't there footage of people within that country chanting outside the court for the death penalty, thats the other pressure apart for the political which in my opinion will effect the decision of the court.

Is it fair or not, thats still open to debate.
I understand your concern and it's very hard to measure whether and to what extent public opinion affects Indonesian courts. Strong voicing of public opinion in itself is not enough to conclude that a trial is not conducted fairly. All the signs appear to show that the Indonesian judges have been fair so far (eg allowing Ford's evidence, as unreliable as it may be).

Public outcry is no news to any legal system. I rememeber late last year the trial of Johnson (is that his name? The union guy) in Melbourne. There were some 10,000 of his supporters rallying outside the County Court. It didnt affect the Judge's impartiality nor the finding of guilt or a subsequent jail sentence. There are many examples in all legal systems of people being aquitted despite great public pressures.

One would hope that you don't rise to the position of an Indonesian Distict Court Judge without having a proven ability to decide a case on its merits and not on the basis of what result the public wants. In fact, to allow those Judges and prosecutors to operate fairly and still keep their integrity with the Indonesian public, it's important not to create any perception that there is any pressure from the Australian Government. Any aquittal in those circumstances would indeed make the Indonesian court system look weak and susceptible to external pressures. That's why things like petitions and government pressures are not appropriate at this point. And we can clearly see that our government has been very careful and reserved while at the same time watching the case closely. If a conviction is reached then all sorts of points relating to fairness will no doubt be canvassed on appeal.

Just my opinion. The thing I dont get, is that the bali bomber (Indonesian), that killed and injured many Australian citizens, plus citizens of other countries DIDNT get the death penalty, is actually in prison, but a lady that has sufficient evidence (to me), to prove that she is not guilty is facing the death penalty over marijuana charges. EVEN if they believe that Corby is guilty, I dont believe she should get the death penalty. I dont think anyone should get the death penalty honestly. The system to me sounds very unjust!!

I agree Kyla

If we took the position as they have done in that country in respect to such crimes as possession of Marijuana then the death chambers in our countries would have a waiting list bigger than any hospital.

And what does it acheive, how many are addicts,, do we put them all to death!!!!! sorry but it doesn't matter how much I try to rationalise the death penalty , I cannot.

It is not justice it is revenge thats it in a nutshell ,and it makes me nearly sick, when I see these politicians get up and quote samples from the bible and then sign the authority for someone to be executed . To me they are only two bob christians you know the ones put a penny in the tray and all is forgiven.

I agree Kyla

such crimes as possession of Marijuana ......

And what does it acheive, how many are addicts,, do we put them all to death!!!!! sorry but it doesn't matter how much I try to rationalise the death penalty , I cannot.

It is not justice it is revenge thats it in a nutshell
Seenitall,

Corby isn't on trial for possession. She's on trial for importation of a DOD. Secondly, as a prison officer you should know better than to suggest a penalty is for revenge only. Let's not forget denunciation, general deterrence, specific deterrence and protection of community.

Just my opinion. The thing I dont get, is that the bali bomber (Indonesian), that killed and injured many Australian citizens, plus citizens of other countries DIDNT get the death penalty, is actually in prison, but a lady that has sufficient evidence (to me), to prove that she is not guilty is facing the death penalty over marijuana charges. EVEN if they believe that Corby is guilty, I dont believe she should get the death penalty. I dont think anyone should get the death penalty honestly. The system to me sounds very unjust!!
Yeah. Examples of courts imposing unusual (by comparison) penalties are many. Even in Australia.

I'm not supportive of death penalty for drugs. But let's not trivialise it. Just because we're used to our courts being overwhelmingly lenient....

Let's think about it. 4.1 kg of pot. That's about 1000 cones. 1000 people could have one cone each. Or 500 could have 2 cones each. All out of Corby's haul. Out of those 1000 or 500, how many will have a laugh and go to sleep? How many will get a bit paranoid and swear at someone? How many will beat smoene's face in? How many will brutally bash their wives? Their kids? How many will get behind the wheel? Of those, how many will drift off and have a crash? What's the chance someone will be seriously injured? Killed? How many will combine it with alcohol and pass out? How many won't wake up? How many will blow out their dogs/cats? How many their kids? How many will get schozophrenia? How many will get drunk and stoned, get a sexual urge and rape somebody? How many underage kids will buy these drugs? How many of them will try for the first time? How many will do it again? How many will start smoking on a daily basis? Stop going to school? Ruin their lives? Is 4.1 kg a weapon of mass destruction? If not, what amount of drugs is? There is a line there somewhere. At some point you're not just selling a commodity... you're killing people. At some point, with some amount (maybe more than 4.1 kg) you can be virtually sure that a death will occur as a result of the drugs you've distributed. But no... let's forget about all the victims of this "victimless crime". Their crying mothers. Let's cry for the dealer.

And also....

It's one thing to cry about a pretty, young, white, female Australian in trouble in Bali. Would we feel the same about a Somalian-born, black, middle-aged, unemployed, naturalised Australian male? Just something to think about.

Yeah. Examples of courts imposing unusual (by comparison) penalties are many. Even in Australia.

I'm not supportive of death penalty for drugs. But let's not trivialise it. Just because we're used to our courts being overwhelmingly lenient....

Let's think about it. 4.1 kg of pot. That's about 1000 cones. 1000 people could have one cone each. Or 500 could have 2 cones each. All out of Corby's haul. Out of those 1000 or 500, how many will have a laugh and go to sleep? How many will get a bit paranoid and swear at someone? How many will beat smoene's face in? How many will brutally bash their wives? Their kids? How many will get behind the wheel? Of those, how many will drift off and have a crash? What's the chance someone will be seriously injured? Killed? How many will combine it with alcohol and pass out? How many won't wake up? How many will blow out their dogs/cats? How many their kids? How many will get schozophrenia? How many will get drunk and stoned, get a sexual urge and rape somebody? How many underage kids will buy these drugs? How many of them will try for the first time? How many will do it again? How many will start smoking on a daily basis? Stop going to school? Ruin their lives? Is 4.1 kg a weapon of mass destruction? If not, what amount of drugs is? There is a line there somewhere. At some point you're not just selling a commodity... you're killing people. At some point, with some amount (maybe more than 4.1 kg) you can be virtually sure that a death will occur as a result of the drugs you've distributed. But no... let's forget about all the victims of this "victimless crime". Their crying mothers. Let's cry for the dealer.

And also....

It's one thing to cry about a pretty, young, white, female Australian in trouble in Bali. Would we feel the same about a Somalian-born, black, middle-aged, unemployed, naturalised Australian male? Just something to think about.

Our laws in Australia dont impose the death penalty over ANY drug charges, yes, I know the laws in each country are different. BUT what you suggested can happen in our own country as well, where in Canberra its legal, its Sydney, its a fine, in QLD... its three strike law, you get drug and alchohol rehabalition... if you were to carry that much pot on in Australia, you would get five to ten years in prison. Drug trafficking on a first offense here in some cases is 18 months. There was a case that a canadian bought in 250thousand tablets to make illegal drugs, and he got three years in prison and deportation. EXPLAIN to me how the death penalty is just, for a "pretty" Australian woman, or a person on the street, a Samalian born person OR anyone. The death penalty is NEVER the answer, justice can be done without taking a persons life.
ANd also, on your marijuana debate... "weapons of mass destruction" why has a neutral country, namingly Switzerland legalized the growth production and sale and use of this weapon of mass destruction. Also, in the USA, its it is used for glycoma and cancer patients. I could keep going on and on. Fact is, Corby does not deserve the death penalty, and I believe she is not guilty, there has been evidence to suggest that.

Kyla Im 100% behind you I don't believe she should or anybody for that matter get the DP , it was proven in Sydney a week ago how easy it is to get to bags , well a camel suit ..
Colby needs to come home she is guilty of no crime

where in Canberra its legal, its Sydney, its a fine, in QLD... its three strike law, you get drug and alchohol rehabalition... if you were to carry that much pot on in Australia, you would get five to ten years in prison. Drug trafficking on a first offense here in some cases is 18 months.

ANd also, on your marijuana debate... "weapons of mass destruction" why has a neutral country, namingly Switzerland legalized the growth production and sale and use of this weapon of mass destruction. Also, in the USA, its it is used for glycoma and cancer patients. I could keep going on and on. Fact is, Corby does not deserve the death penalty, and I believe she is not guilty, there has been evidence to suggest that.
Kyla,

I agree. with that much marijuana (first offence) in Victoria you might even get a suspended sentence and not go to jail at all. Our system is way too soft. Hence our overwhelming drug problem.

It's not legal in Canberra. The max penalty for possession of a Drug of Dependence (including Cannabis L) is 2 years imprisonment (see section 169 of the Drugs of Dependence Act 1989, ACT).

In Sydney, the maximum penalty for possession of DOD (including Cannabis) is 2 years imprisonment or $2,000 fine (see section 10 of the Drug Misuse and Trafficking Act 1985 NSW).

For Queensland, see s9 of the Drugs Misuse Act 1986, Qld. Again, penalty for simple possession (of non-traffickable and non-commercial quantity) is 2 years (unless we're talking about cannabis sativa in which case it's 15 years).

All the above offences relate to possession NOT FOR SALE and don't relate to possession of traffickable or commercial quantities. 4.1 kg is traffickable quantity in all the above jurisdictions and you'd be looking at charges for trafficking which attract much higher penalties.

It's Holland, not Switzerland (unless things have changed since I last heard). And they're suffering HUGE social problems as a result of legalising marijuana. I can point you to some useful literature about the effects of that drug. They're actually much more devastating than was known some 10 or so years ago.

Besides, how can we use one legal system against another? How can we say marijuana is not harmful (forget the scientific evidence that I can actually point you to) because one very small (population wise) country - yes, Australia - happens to treat it more leniently than most other countries and one slightly larger country has legalised it altogether? By comparison, if Saudi Arabia allows you to beat your wife as long as the stick is no thicker than your thumb, does that mean people should not be penalised for wifebashing here?

Kyla Im 100% behind you I don't believe she should or anybody for that matter get the DP , it was proven in Sydney a week ago how easy it is to get to bags , well a camel suit ..
Colby needs to come home she is guilty of no crime
Just because it's easy to get into bags in Sydney doesn't mean Schapelle Corby is not guilty. As explained above, all evidence must be taken into account, including Corby's oral testimony, Ford's evidence, evidence of customs officials, and possibly that very mysterious death letter from the Sydney whistleblower.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be suggesting that no one should be charged with drug importation because baggage handlers are able to get into people's luggage. By the same token, since a dingo ate a baby once, we can now safely take toddlers out to the desert, slaughter them and blame it on the dogs. Why not? It's reasonable doubt, right? Or rape women and get away with it. Come on, it's one's word against the other's. Reasonable doubt. It just doesn't work that way.

Are you against capital punishment just for drugs or as a whole? Would it change your mind if somebody brutally raped and killed your children and then got life in prison for it (with Foxtel tv, computer games, nice meals, access to gym and library, sports facilities, work, educational programs including uni degrees)?

.....and of course, given our great Australian system, they'd be paroled after 20 years, change their name, live in your neighbourhood and work as a janitor at the local primary school :P

seenitall
Corby isn't on trial for possession. She's on trial for importation of a DOD. Secondly, as a prison officer you should know better than to suggest a penalty is for revenge only. Let's not forget denunciation, general deterrence, specific deterrence and protection of community.Lightkeeper

Can I say firstly , I love the way you put that!!

Ordinarily, I would support the above statement, but in this instance I can't, general deterrence , let just talk about this for a moment, I am commenting on the Corby case for this is what this thread is about.
If they KILL her, yes that would stop her doing it again, that of course if she was guilty , Protection of the public, Yes if you KILL her there won't be anymore threat and denuciation well I saw it first hand on the news not by the courts but by the public.

After 27 years in the service, I think I have had time to observe the deterrent value of incarceration first hand, there isn't any and to back that statement up you only have to look at the prison populations across the globe , in the US it has reached a new high 2,000.000 million or one in four of the population. The three strike and your out law over there its done nothing more than fill the prisons and it cost the community alot of money and the answer for them is to Kill them off.

I think in the Corby case it is going to be "Justice Must Be Seen to be Done" and over there that means the death penalty. Now we can debate the issue of whether it is Justice or Revenge all day and if your view is that it is justice and not revenge your entitled to your opinion and me mine and because I work in a prison doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinions or am I to mindlessly accept the position of others as being correct in every instance or is it your position that I should be singing the company song, Glad I not in iraq at the moment because I am led to believe if you don't sing the company song it a crime punishable by death. Justice Hmmm have to think about it some more.

When the justice system gets it right and our prisons are empty and the recidivisium rate are nil then you can make a statement about deterrence and alike and I will accept every word, but is Killing someone the deterrent value we want, it is not the answer for me.

Well this is a discussion thread about Corby, not pot, but if we want to discuss marijuana laws in Australia, i am sure we can start a new thread on that.

The fact is, THE DEATH PENALTY IS WRONG!!! Drugs, murder, you name it, its immoral and wrong, and if you want to debate that, I am all for that as well. I am visiting death row in a few days, I am in touch with families with people that have loved ones on death row. What did they deserve to have there loved ones killed???? NOTHING. Justice, as I said is one thing, the death penalty is another. She shouldnt be put to death, and no person should be put to death for that matter. It causes to many victims, pain, more victims, and as for closure... well where is the closure??? Watching someone die to me isnt closure, its called vengence, something that I will never be able to understand in my lifetime. Corby DIDNT kill anyone. Even (I believe she is innocent), but even if there was reasonable doubt on her case, killing her isnt the answer, as you state, Lightkeeper, because of things that "could" happen. Look at our own country.

hey lightkeeper if that was your daughter over there would you like her killed or if one of your children happen to murder someone should they also die .... Please think about it what does killing somebody achieve ......

Lightkeeper


If they KILL her, yes that would stop her doing it again, that of course if she was guilty , Protection of the public, Yes if you KILL her there won't be anymore threat and denuciation well I saw it first hand on the news not by the courts but by the public.
Specific deterrence - the individual does not reoffend.

General deterrence - seeing the individual punished deters others from committing the same crime. Due to the weak penalties in Australia (generally, not just for drugs), we don't see general deterrence taking a huge effect. But it's there.

Denunciation - by punishing the individual, the court expresses disapproval for the offence. On its own behalf as well as on behalf of the community.

These, in addition to rehabilitation, are the main purposes of sentencing known to law. They are all referred to in almost every sentencing order of the County Court and the Supreme Court (Magistrates tend to be half-assed and not give reasons for their decisions at all).


After 27 years in the service, I think I have had time to observe the deterrent value of incarceration first hand, there isn't any and to back that statement up you only have to look at the prison populations across the globe , in the US it has reached a new high 2,000.000 million or one in four of the population. The three strike and your out law over there its done nothing more than fill the prisons and it cost the community alot of money and the answer for them is to Kill them off.
Within a year of its enactment, the 3 strikes and you're out law has reduced violent crime in California by more than 50 percent.

Incarceration does have a deterrent value. There are two types of offenders. Some get totally freaked out the first time they go to jail and we don't see them again. Others get institutionalised and realise that if the worst the state can do to them is provide them with free accommodation, meals, education, entertainment and the company of such nice individuals as yourself then there's really no reason not to reoffend.

But more than that, heavy prison sentences have a strong general deterrence value. When you hear about someone going to jail for 6 years for culpable driving, you think twice before drink driving. Doesn't stop everyone but certainly does help.

If you suggest that prison has no specific deterrence, what do you suggest? CBO's? ICO's? Bonds? Fines? Look at a LEAP sheet. You'll see that most of your "clients" have exhausted all those options before going to jail for the first time. They're unstoppable. It's not just prison that won't do anything for them; nothing will. You're almost advocating death penalty as the only specific deterrent that works.

Yes, you can have your opinions and I can have mine. You can totally ignore all the purposes of sentencing and argue that sentencing is all about revenge. That's what you're doing. You're saying prison doesn't deter. Nothing does. So it's all just about revenge, correct? But of course, if you express your opinion, I can express mine.


When the justice system gets it right and our prisons are empty and the recidivisium rate are nil then you can make a statement about deterrence and alike and I will accept every word, but is Killing someone the deterrent value we want, it is not the answer for me. - then you'll be unemployed.

The unfortunate conclusion of what you have said might be that killing someone is the only thing with any deterrent value (at least specific deterrence) :(

Luckily I disagree with you. Having worked in the criminal justice system for many years myself I know that imprisonment does work as a deterrent, though not so much for drug-related offences. Most offenders are drug addicts and it's difficult to deter them by locking them up. Particularly since (and I'm not having a go at prison authorities) there's ample access to drugs in the Victorian prison system. If we reduced the availability of drugs (by introducing very harsh sentencing for drug dealing, smuggling etc), you'd see a huge decrease in burglaries, robberies and violent crime.

hey lightkeeper if that was your daughter over there would you like her killed or if one of your children happen to murder someone should they also die .... Please think about it what does killing somebody achieve ......
I wouldn't like my daughter killed. Or imprisoned. I wouldn't like my daughter smuggling drugs.

What does killing someone achieve? Let me answer your question with a question. What does locking someone up, fining them or giving them a bond achieve? What does any sentence achieve?

I wouldn't like my daughter killed. Or imprisoned. I wouldn't like my daughter smuggling drugs.

What does killing someone achieve? Let me answer your question with a question. What does locking someone up, fining them or giving them a bond achieve? What does any sentence achieve?


Lightkeeper
Thats justice, killing isnt justice. There is one thing to lock someone up, and another to kill them. I am answering that question (out of line).
Got to give it to you though, you are one for an interesting debate :D

Well this is a discussion thread about Corby, not pot, but if we want to discuss marijuana laws in Australia, i am sure we can start a new thread on that.

Sure, if you like.



The fact is, THE DEATH PENALTY IS WRONG!!! Drugs, murder, you name it, its immoral and wrong, and if you want to debate that, I am all for that as well. I am visiting death row in a few days, I am in touch with families with people that have loved ones on death row. What did they deserve to have there loved ones killed???? NOTHING.

Thought you were in Australia. Where do you live, if I may ask.

Yes, having someone on death row is a very painful experience. So is having someone in prison. If you go to court to watch proceedings in Australia you'll see lawyers talking about how the whole family will be devastated if the accused gets a prison sentence. The law's response is: stiff cheese. The Court is not allowed to take this stuff into account, unless there are exceptional circumstances (eg child with cancer etc). And there's a reason for it. Everyone has a family. Everyone is loved by someone. And you're meant to have those loved ones in mind before you commit a heinous offence. You're meant to think "what's this gonna do to my family?". It's very unfortunate if a person so much disregards his loved ones' feelings that he chooses to put them through the hell of seeing him imprisoned or even executed.


but even if there was reasonable doubt on her case, killing her isnt the answer If the court finds reasonable doubt she should (and will) be set free.

, as you state, Lightkeeper, because of things that "could" happen. Look at our own country.
These things not just COULD happen. They do happen. You can't trace down every buyer, see how the drugs sold have affected every user they went to. That's the problem. Drugs are a heinous thing. They kill people. They cause violent crime. Most crime is committed in some connection with drugs. That's why some countries take such a strong stance against them. Yes, I'm looking at my own country. What I see is drug dealers walking free or getting short jail sentences in relatively luxurious conditions. So comfortable that it doesn't even stop them from reoffending (see Seenitall's post).

Lightkeeper
Thats justice, killing isnt justice. There is one thing to lock someone up, and another to kill them. I am answering that question (out of line).
Got to give it to you though, you are one for an interesting debate :DWell actually I did ask the question hoping you'd answer it. It was a bona fide question :)

Your answer is a self-serving statement.

Why is going to jail justice but being killed is not justice? What do you define as justice?

Editing my post..... I did think it wasn't your post in the first place LOL
But since we're 3 on one anyway, there's no reason why you can't answer it anyhow.

Hmm debates alright i hope it all stays friendly,im just sitting back reading and learning here :o) anyway my prayers are that corby not get DP..

Lightkeeper
I am against the death penalty period, I dont believe in an "eye for an eye" I believe there are people in this world that should never walk out of prison for the heinious and cruel crimes they have done, but I dont believe in the death penalty, killing people. That to me isnt right. 2 wrongs dont make a right. Thats my opinion.

I am in Australia. I have a loved one in Texas. I pray he gets off death row. He is not a monster. I am not making excuses for him. He did something wrong. The circumstances were not properly bought up in trial. Yes, he should be in prison, no, he should NOT be killed. Anyway, enough on that, because I am not going to debate the person I love.

I have also been in a courtroom when someone I care for deeply was put in prison. Yes, I lost it. I didnt understand it. I cussed the judge, I was out of line, but I was totally in shock. I just couldnt believe someone I cared about was heading to prison, and this person had a mental illness. To me, this person needed psychiatry help. The prosecutor (I dont know what side of the law you practice, and its irrelevant), stood in court, and said that he shouldnt be rehabilitated. He never killed anyone. He wanted to end his own life. The day ended up wrong, that was another story. I got him out on supreme court bail, magistrates court didnt want to hear it. He never was sentenced to prison again after doing remand. He is now doing well, so as the prosecutor stated, he shouldnt be rehabilitated was wrong.

Back to Corby.... I am a mother of three. I would stick by my children no matter what, my love for them is unconditional, it always will be, always has been. If it was my child sitting in Bali, I would be fighting with every ounce of being inside of me to save them, guilty or not guilty.

I am a true believer in forgiveness. I believe if you can forgive a person, you have more higher values in life than hating a person. Hatred just causes hatred, and bitterness.
This is just my opinion.

Hmm debates alright i hope it all stays friendly,im just sitting back reading and learning here :o) anyway my prayers are that corby not get DP..


LoL Chezza
It is all friendly, just a matter of opinion, thats all. I respect what Lightkeeper is saying, even though I disagree, and I am sure he disagrees with me, but we wont end it in and argument. Everyone is entitled to there opinion, so feel free to jump in anytime :D

lol no thanks ill just sit and watch ill learm more this way (smile)

lol no thanks ill just sit and watch ill learm more this way (smile)
Chezza,

Of course it's just a discussion. You don't see any bits of furniture flying around do you ;)

If you have an opinion (which no doubt will go against me, as the young pretty white Aussie girl just can't be a drug smuggler), voice it! :P

Also, praying might not necessarily help because, if the Bible is anything to go by, God is very much pro-capital-punishment, hates drugs and believes very strongly in obeying all applicable laws.

Indonesian legal circles resentful at Australia's interference with Corby's case, calling it unethical. For details see http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15000422-2,00.html

"All the evidence is over ... Even if we brought the owners of the drugs (to court), I don't think it would make any difference. There's no 'looking for truth'," said adviser Vasu Rasiah


From the same article, and this is my point


[QUOTE] I hate to be right

In respect to the comments made by Vasu Rasiah you are right!!! thanks for the link, couldn't have put it better myself!!!

Lightkeeper: If i have an opinion i can have but i have a choice whether i wanted to say something i have chose to sit back and watch did u not read that bit, why push the issue.
Another thing praying for me will do what i need it to do, just because i pray it does not mean that i am relying on god to get her out. There are many different religions .Chezza,

Of course it's just a discussion. You don't see any bits of furniture flying around do you ;)

If you have an opinion (which no doubt will go against me, as the young pretty white Aussie girl just can't be a drug smuggler), voice it! :P

Also, praying might not necessarily help because, if the Bible is anything to go by, God is very much pro-capital-punishment, hates drugs and believes very strongly in obeying all applicable laws.

Also, praying might not necessarily help because, if the Bible is anything to go by, God is very much pro-capital-punishment, hates drugs and believes very strongly in obeying all applicable laws.


Lightkeeper
Thats what the pro death penalty people use, bible quotes, but in the new testiment, Jesus forgave all sins of all kinds. A bible discussion and the death penalty isnt the answer.
Chezza, I DO pray for all people of death row, and the victims that are no longer with us. We all need a little faith in our life, and if thats what brings us comfort, I say do it. :)

[QUOTE]

"All the evidence is over ... Even if we brought the owners of the drugs (to court), I don't think it would make any difference. There's no 'looking for truth'," said adviser Vasu Rasiah


:confused:
Right..... Legal proceedings are not a search for the truth. They're a presentation and consideration of evidence. Evidence has been closed and the matter is under deliberation. I can't see what your complaint is, Seenitall. The same applies in any other jurisdicion. Once the jury is out, the jury is out. New evidence that was not available during the trial but is likely to have affected the outcome of the trial can be good grounds for an appeal. I'm almost sure the position is the same in Indonesia.

Lightkeeper
Thats what the pro death penalty people use, bible quotes, but in the new testiment, Jesus forgave all sins of all kinds. A bible discussion and the death penalty isnt the answer. LOL of course they use it. Because it's THERE in black and white.

Jesus did forgive all sins. But when asked by a thief (fellow "crucifiee") on the cross "if you're really the Messiah then get us out of this mess", did he save the thief from death? No. And then the other thief expressed all this remorse and Jesus also didn't save him from death. Instead he just said "You'll be in paradise with me tonight" or words to that effect. His Kingdom is not of this world, remember?

Corby's already turned to Jesus. Apparently, while in jail, apart from learning to weave, attending yoga classes and playing tennis she also reads the Bible and goes to church. I'm sure she'll go to haven.

Lightkeeper: If i have an opinion i can have but i have a choice whether i wanted to say something i have chose to sit back and watch did u not read that bit, why push the issue.
Another thing praying for me will do what i need it to do, just because i pray it does not mean that i am relying on god to get her out. There are many different religions .
Of course. I have an opinion too and I can choose to voice it or remain quiet about it. My choice is to voice it. And the opinion I'm voicing is this:

In my opinion, if you have an opinion, you should choose to voice it even though it's your right not to.

Jesus also said, those who havent sinned throw the first stone. No stone was throwed.

I am shocked that we are actually debating whether a woman, who has a drug charge, should be murdered!!! Of course, I am always shocked when there is a debate about capital punishment! Capital Punishment is wrong and it is not a deterrent!


Just out of curiosity? Why do we always have to bring up the bible? What does the bible have to do with a young woman up against death? Do we feel the need to reference the bible to be able to differentiate right from wrong? I would have just thought it would take common sense, but maybe that is just me.

Coming from a very non-religious person who does not own and will never own a bible, I am just curious as to what the bible has to do with this topic? Many are so quick to quote the bible, but yet I have never met one individual that actually lives by the bible. JMO

And for the record, I cannot believe that they are even considering putting this woman to death! What has this world come to?

Jesus also said, those who havent sinned throw the first stone. No stone was throwed.
.... and then a huge rock falls down from the sky, killing the woman instantly. Jesus raises his eyes up to the sky in disbelief and says "Oh dad, didn't I tell you to stay out of my business?"

Seriously though...... Jesus stopped a sensless lynching. He did not express an opinion that law should not be followed or that he's against the death penalty.

I am shocked that we are actually debating whether a woman, who has a drug charge, should be murdered!!!


If death penalty is muder then imprisonment is kidnapping and imposing a fine is theft. Let's have anarchy.

Of course, I am always shocked when there is a debate about capital punishment! Capital Punishment is wrong and it is not a deterrent!

Yes, a lot of people are saying that capital punishment is wrong. But no one can come up with a single reason why! Some say it's wrong because it's not justice. But if you ask them why it's not justice, they'll tell you it's because it's wrong!
Why do you say it's not a deterrent? Most people don't want to die. Even back in the days when I used to smoke pot I'd never consider taking any with me to Indonesia or Thailand on my holidays. Why? Because death penalty DETERRED ME.



Do we feel the need to reference the bible to be able to differentiate right from wrong? I would have just thought it would take common sense, but maybe that
is just me.


I agree. But what I see is some people praying to God for a drug smuggler to get off. I know, it's incredible!




Coming from a very non-religious person...


Agreed. I'm an atheist myself.



And for the record, I cannot believe that they are even considering putting this woman to death! What has this world come to?
And why not? That's their law. They feel very strongly about drugs. And "for the record", drugs ARE the biggest problem in today's world. THAT's what the world has come to.

[QUOTE=lightkeeper][/b][/size][/font]

If death penalty is muder then imprisonment is kidnapping and imposing a fine is theft. Let's have anarchy.

Yes, a lot of people are saying that capital punishment is wrong. But no one can come up with a single reason why! Some say it's wrong because it's not justice. But if you ask them why it's not justice, they'll tell you it's because it's wrong!
Why do you say it's not a deterrent? Most people don't want to die. Even back in the days when I used to smoke pot I'd never consider taking any with me to Indonesia or Thailand on my holidays. Why? Because death penalty DETERRED ME.

[b]Why do I say that the death penalty is not a deterrent? Well, I am now going to speak in reference to the United States. The states that pursue capital punishment, their murder rates have actually risen, not declined. Wasn't the purpose of Capital Punishment to deter murder? Well, another bright idea by our government that failed, of course, I cannot say I'm suprised........

Now why do I believe that it is murder? Well, I consider someone killing someone, murder. But that is just a logical explanation to myself.

Why do I believe it is wrong? For many reasons. First of all, I do not believe in an eye for an eye, for to me, that carries the mentality of a 5 year old.

I do not believe in spending millions of dollars to execute an individual, and the media circus that goes along with it, while there are people who do not have a place to live and do not know how they are going to feed their kids, clothe their kids, etc. POVERTY!

And most of all, because it is a political ploy tactic, and it does not logically make sense. I kill you in Beverly Hills, and I will receive life in prison, but I kill you in Compton, and I am going to fry? Capital Punishment is racist, classist, and depends on where and who you kill.

Why is there a war on drugs, but not a war on poverty? (Tupac Shakur)

Lightkeeper this is what you have said: I agree. But what I see is some people praying to God for a drug smuggler to get off. I know, it's incredible!

If this in reference to me and what i have said please show me where I have said ONCE im praying to GOD!!!!!!

Lightkeeper this is what you have said: I agree. But what I see is some people praying to God for a drug smuggler to get off. I know, it's incredible!

If this in reference to me and what i have said please show me where I have said ONCE im praying to GOD!!!!!!
LOL!

Nice one but I wans't referring to you. You've already told me I shouldnt assume you pray to God.

As for the general assumption, it is reasonable. The majority of non-atheist in this country are Christian. Those who are Muslim will have even a greater difficulty when it comes to DP. Same for Judaists.

[QUOTE=lightkeeper][/b][/size][/font]
Well, I am now going to speak in reference to the United States. The states that pursue capital punishment, their murder rates have actually risen, not declined. Wasn't the purpose of Capital Punishment to deter murder? Well, another bright idea by our government that failed, of course, I cannot say I'm suprised........

LOL. But how can you say the entire concept is wrong simply because the US got it wrong? How can you say the rise in murder has occurred AS A RESULT of the death penalty. Maybe it rose as a result of something totally unrelated.

And what do you mean anyway? You mean those states that didn't have the death penalty, then introduced it and then murder rates rose? When did these states not have the death penalty?

Bright idea by YOUR government? Now you want to take credit for the USA for inventing the death penalty? DP existed long time before even the true Americans (meaning Indians of course) ever entered the continent. It's as old as humanity itself.

Now why do I believe that it is murder? Well, I consider someone killing someone, murder. But that is just a logical explanation to myself.
No, murder is the UNLAWFUL killing of someone. If it's sanctioned by law, it's not murder. (see my discussion about kidnapping and theft)


Why do I believe it is wrong? For many reasons. First of all, I do not believe in an eye for an eye, for to me, that carries the mentality of a 5 year old.



What about "an eye for 2000 eyes"? And what's wrong with "eye for an eye" anyway? It's nice to hide behind a cliche. Seriously, why should punishment be less than the crime? Why should it not FIT the crime? Where's the sense in that?


I do not believe in spending millions of dollars to execute an individual, and the media circus that goes along with it, while there are people who do not have a place to live and do not know how they are going to feed their kids, clothe their kids, etc. POVERTY!

I can assure you that shooting Corby will not cost millions of dollars. 5 bullets and 20 minutes work. Much cheaper than maintaining someone in jail for even for a day!!! That's another thing the US got totally wrong.


And most of all, because it is a political ploy tactic, and it does not logically make sense. I kill you in Beverly Hills, and I will receive life in prison, but I kill you in Compton, and I am going to fry? Capital Punishment is racist, classist, and depends on where and who you kill.

Well yeah, it's unfortunate that we have different countries and states with different laws. Ideally we should all adopt the same law (from Alaska to Tasmania, from Tokyo to Rio de Janeiro). But we can't. Thus, in some places you'll get 2 years, in others you won't even get charged (eg abortion), in some you'll get the electric chair, in others you'll get life, in others you'll be out in 15. That doesn't mean the lower of them is the right one, does it now?

Racist? No, that's only the USA version. In Indonesia they're going to execute Corby EVEN THOUGH she's white. They want to treat her the same as anyone of any race, including their own.

Classist? Hardly.


Why is there a war on drugs, but not a war on poverty? (Tupac Shakur)

Because drugs are one of the main reasons for poverty. You can give people $1000 per week in social security benefits. To little avail if they're gonna spend it on drugs. And drug use is the greatest amongst unemployed people! And yes, there is a war on poverty.

This thread needs to get back on topic and stay on topic, or I will close the thread. We have many threads here debating if the DP is wrong or right, this is not one of those threads.

The thread was started to talk about the guy that testified for Corby.

This was the original post that started the thread.
Seenitall
That guy that testified on behalf of Corby and the information that he gave over to the courts, will he be able to be in some kind of protective custody, where he wont get harmed. Its like a catch 22, from what I have read, that she is facing the Death penalty in Bali, but his life is now at risk from testifying. It just left me curious. What he did was a good thing, but its scary that his life may now be at risk in Australia.

Please read PTO Rules and Policies.

http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23755

softheart
PTO Super Moderator

This thread needs to get back on topic and stay on topic, or I will close the thread. We have many threads here debating if the DP is wrong or right, this is not one of those threads.

The thread was started to talk about the guy that testified for Corby.
Please read PTO Rules and Policies.

http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23755

softheart
PTO Super ModeratorThe thread is called "Corby discussion thread". It would be unreasonable to demand that it be as narrow as talking about Ford only. Otherwise we'll have to have a separate thread for each aspect of the Corby case. Some supporters of Corby have brought the issue down to the death penalty in the context of Corby's case. The discussion is in Corby's context. We can keep general death penalty points to a minimum but I respectuflly disagree that they're off topic in Corby's case!

It would be like having a Bill Clinton thread, but without being allowed to mention the Lewinsky scandal because there's a separate thread about sexual harassment.