What is your opinion on the Death Penalty? [Archive]

Big B

05-15-2002, 12:17 AM

I grew up in church always feared my dad ( discipline) then went into the USAF I followed the rules and always have. I was always for the death penalty. Being a so called redneck from KY it was always easier to just say "Hang em"

However, When I became involved with prison ministry. I went on a spiritual journey about the death penalty. I felt like I needed to know where I stood. The best I can say is I believe in the death penalty Chuck Colson says it best I'm posting his views here. I would say I align pretty much with his beliefs.

Capital Punishment: A Personal Statement

Prison Fellowship

By Charles W. Colson
Chuck Colson's spiritual pilgrimage reaches yet another point of significant change

As we Christians grow and cultivate the disciplines of reading and study, we sometimes alter our views. Sometimes these views even change dramatically. No one knows this better than I, having been dramatically converted to Christ and, subsequently, having my entire worldview turned upside-down. There was a time, for example, when I thought John Locke's understanding of social contract was the ultimate theory of government. I now see that government draws its authority less from the consent of the governed than from a sovereign God. I have come to another of those points in my spiritual pilgrimage in which my views have undergone significant change. I owe it to those who have followed my work and to the constituency of Prison Fellowship to give the reasons. For as long as I can remember, I have opposed capital punishment. As a lawyer I observed how flawed the legal system is, and I concluded, as Justice Learned Hand once remarked, that it was better that a hundred guilty men go free than one innocent man be executed. I was also influenced by very libertarian views of government; I distrusted government too much to give power to take a human life to the judicial system. Then as I became a Christian, I was confronted with the reality of Jesus' payment of the debt of human sin. I discovered that the operation of God's marvelous grace in our lives has profound implications for the way we live. Naturally, as I came to deal increasingly with ethical issues, I found myself seriously questioning whether the death penalty was an effective deterrent. My views were very much influenced by Deuteronomy 17 and the need for two eye-witnesses. I questioned whether the circumstantial evidence on which most are sentenced today in fact measures up to this standard of proof. I still have grave reservations about the way in which capital punishment is administered in the U.S., and I still do question whether it is a deterrent. (In fact, I remain convinced it is not a general deterrent.) But I must say that my views have changed and that I now favor capital punishment, at least in principle, but only in extreme cases when no other punishment can satisfy the demands of justice. The reason for this is quite simple. Justice in God's eyes requires that the response to an offense - whether against God or against humanity - be proportionate. The lex talionis, the "law of the talion," served as a restraint, a limitation, that punishment would be no greater than the crime. Yet, implied therein is a standard that the punishment should be at least as great as the crime. One frequently finds among Christians the belief that Jesus' so-called "love-ethic" sets aside the "law of of the talion." To the contrary, Jesus affirms the divine basis of Old Testament ethics. Nowhere does Jesus set aside the requirements of civil law. Furthermore, it leads to a perversion of legal justice to confuse the sphere of private relations with that of civil law. While the thief on the cross found pardon in the sight of God ("Today you will be with me in Paradise"), that pardon did not extend to eliminating the consequences of his crime ("We are being justly punished, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds").[1] What about mercy? someone is inclined to ask. My response is simple. There can be no mercy where justice is not satisfied. Justice entails receiving what we in fact deserve; we did in fact know better. Mercy is not receiving what we in truth deserve. To be punished, however severely, because we indeed deserve it, as C.S. Lewis observed, is to be treated with dignity as human beings created in the image of God. Conversely, to abandon the criteria of righteous and just punishment, as Lewis also pointed out, is to abandon all criteria for punishment.[2] Indeed, I am coming to see that mercy extended to offenders whose guilt is certain yet simply ignored creates a moral travesty which, over time, helps pave the way for collapse of the entire social order.[3] This is essentially the argument of Romans 13. Romans 12 concludes with an apostolic proscription of personal retribution, yet St. Paul immediately follows this with a divinely instituted prescription for punishing moral evil. It is for eminently social reasons that "the authorities" are to wield the sword, the ius gladii: due to human depravity and the need for moral-social order the civil magistrate punishes criminal behavior. The implication of Romans 13 is that by not punishing moral evil the authorities are not performing their God-appointed responsibility in society. Paul's teaching in Romans 13 squares with his personal experience. Testifying before Festus, the Apostle certifies: "If...I am guilty of doing anything deserving death, I do not refuse to die."[4] Perhaps the emotional event that pushed me over the (philosophical) edge was the John Wayne Gacy case some years ago. I visited him on death row. During our hour-long conversation he was totally unrepentant; in fact, he was arrogant. He insisted that he was a Christian, that he believed in Christ, yet he showed not a hint of remorse. The testimony in the trial, of course, was overwhelming. I don't think anybody could possibly believe that he did not commit those crimes, and the crimes were unspeakably barbaric. What I realized in the days prior to Gacy's execution was that there was simply no other appropriate response than execution if justice was to be served. There are some cases like this - the Oklahoma bombing a case in point - when no other response is appropriate, no other punishment sufficient for the deliberate savagery of the crime. The issue in my mind boils down ultimately to just deserts. Indeed, just punishment is a thread running throughout the whole of biblical revelation. Moreover, there is divinely instituted tension that exists between mercy and justice - a tension that, ethically speaking, may not be eradicated. Mercy without justice makes a mockery of the sacrifice of the Lamb of God. It ignores the fundamental truth of biblical anthropology: the soul that sins must die; sin incurs a debt that must be paid. Punitive dealings provide a necessary atonement and restore the moral balance that has been disturbed by sin. Purification, one of the most central of biblical themes, reveals to us both the temporal and eternal perspectives on mankind. Purification comes by way of suffering; it prepares the individual to meet His Maker. God's redemptive response to the sin dilemma did not - and does not - eradicate the need to bear the consequences of our actions. Which leads me to a second observation. The death penalty ultimately confronts us with the issue of moral accountability in the present life. Contemporary society seems totally unwilling to assign moral responsibility to anyone. Everything imaginable is due to a dysfunctional family or to having had our knuckles rapped while we were in grade-school. Ours is a day in which "abuse excuses" have proliferated beyond our wildest dreams. We really have reached a point where the Menendez brothers plead for mercy - and get it! - because they are orphans, after acknowledging that they made themselves orphans by killing their parents. Non-Christians and Christians alike are not absolved from the consequences of their behavior. Whether or not faith is professed, penalties for everything from speeding to strangulation apply to all. In American society today, people are literally getting away with murder, and the moral stupor that has descended over our culture reflects a decay, an utter erosion, of time-tested moral norms - norms that have guarded generation after generation. Can anyone really wonder why evidence of a moral dry-rot is everywhere? I come to this view with something of a heavy heart, as some of the most blessed brothers I've known in my Christian walk were on death row. I think of Richard Moore in particular and, of course, Rusty Woomer, about whom I've written in The Body. I think of Bob Williams in Nebraska and Johnny Cockrum in Texas. I have a heavy heart as well because I do not believe the system administers criminal justice fairly. It is merely symbolic justice to execute twenty-five people a year when 2,000 are sentenced. (Obviously, the system needs to be thoroughly revamped. Nevertheless, revamping the system, in order that punishment be both swift and proportionate, would accord with biblical guidelines and demands the Christian's engagement.) But in spite of the flaws of the system, I have come to believe that God in fact requires capital justice, at least in the case of premeditated murder where there is no doubt of the offender's guilt. This is, after all, the one crime in the Bible for which no restitution was possible.[5] Lest we believe the Old Testament was characterized by indiscriminate capital justice, Old Testament law painstakingly distinguished between premeditated murder and involuntary manslaughter; hence, the function of the cities of refuge. Israel's elders, we can be assured, would have adjudicated well at the gate. In the case of involuntary manslaughter, deliverance out of the hand of the avenger occurred. In the case of murder, the convicted criminal was put to death. Personally, I still doubt that the death penalty is a general deterrent - and strong evidence exists that it is not likely to be a deterrent when it is so seldom invoked. But I have a hard time escaping the attitude of the biblical writers, that judgment - both temporal and eschatological - is a certain reality for those who disobey or reject God's authority. We'll never know how many potential murderers are deterred by the threat of a death penalty, just as we will never know how many lives may be saved by it. But at the bare minimum, it may deter a convict sentenced to life from killing a prison guard or another convict. (In such a case no other punishment is appropriate because all lesser punishments have been exhausted.) And it will certainly prevent a convicted murderer from murdering again. In this regard, I find wisdom in the words of John Stuart Mill:
As for what is called the failure of death punishment, who is able to judge of that? We partly know who those are whom it has not deterred; but who is there who knows whom it has deterred, or how many human beings it has saved who would have lived to be murderers if that awful association had not been thrown round the idea of murder from their earliest infancy?[6]
So in spite of my misgivings, I've come to see capital punishment as an essential element of justice. On the whole, the full range of biblical data weighs in its favor. Society should not execute capital offenders merely for the sake of revenge, rather to balance the scales of moral justice which have been disturbed. The death penalty is warranted and should be implemented only in those cases where evidence is certain, in accordance with the biblical standard and where no other punishment can satisfy the demands of justice. In the public debate over the death penalty, we are dealing with values of the highest order: respect for the sacredness of human life and its protection, the preservation of order in society, and the attainment of justice through law. The function of biblical sanctions against a heinous crime such as murder is to discourage the wanton destruction of innocent life. Undergirding the biblical sanctions against murder[7] is the utter sacred character of human life. The shedding of blood in ancient Israel polluted the land - a pollution for which there was no substitute - and thus required the death penalty. This is the significance of the sanctions in Genesis 9 against those who would shed the blood of another. It is because humans are created in the image of God that capital punishment for premeditated murder was to be a perpetual obligation. To kill a person was tantamount to killing God in effigy.[8] The Noahic covenant recorded in Genesis 9 antedates Israel and the Mosaic code; it transcends Old Testament law per se and mirrors ethical legislation that is binding for all cultures and eras. The sanctity of human life is rooted in the universal creation ethic and thus retains its force in society. Any culture that fails to distinguish between the criminal and the punitive act, in my opinion, is a culture that cannot survive. In this way, then, my own ethical thinking has evolved. I'm well aware that sincere Christians stand on both sides of this issue. One's views on the death penalty are by no means a test of fellowship. While we take no pleasure in defining the contours of this difficult ethical issue, the Christian community nevertheless is called upon to articulate standards of biblical justice, even when this may be unpopular. Capital justice, I have come to believe, is part of that non-negotiable standard. A moral obligation requires civil government to punish crime, and consequently, to enforce capital punishment, albeit under highly restricted conditions. Fallible humans will continue to work for justice. But fallible as the system might be, part of the Christian's task is to remind surrounding culture that actions indeed have consequences - in this life and the life to come. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [1]Luke 23:39-43. (back) [2]"The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment," God in the Dock (Eerdmans, 1970), pp. 287-94. (back) [3]Carl Henry states the matter with characteristic clarity: "Where the state considers the life of a deliberate murderer to have greater value than the life of an innocent victim, it demeans the imago Dei in mankind and weakens the supports of social justice" (Carl F.H. Henry, "Perspectives on Capital Punishment," in Twilight of a Great Civilization [Westchester: Crossway, 1988] 71). (back) [4]Acts 25:11. (back) [5]Num. 35:31,33. (back) [6]J.S. Mill, Hansard's Parliamentary Debate (3rd Series; London, April 21, 1868). (back) [7]The prohibition against murder applied to premeditated murder, self-murder, accomplices to murder, and to those who possessed legal authority to punish murderers. (back) [8]W.C. Kaiser, Jr., Toward Old Testament Ethics (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1983) 91. (back)

soraya

05-15-2002, 04:34 AM

I'm not a christian, was raised as a catholic, but am no catholic neither.

I agree with Spencer, people who have outspoken thoughts about the death penalty, should first do some efforts to get in contact and learn from the people who are dealing with it, a death row prisoner or their family. it might change their point of view...and that would be good

Budwoman

05-16-2002, 12:49 PM

SPENCE IS RIGHT AGAIN...

THE DEATH PENALTY WILL NEVER, NOR HAS IT EVER BEEN THE ANSWER TO CRIME... WE MUST BEGIN NOW, TEACHING OUR CHILDREN TO HAVE FAITH IN A FUTURE THAT THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR.... WE MUST SHOW THEM WHAT TRUE LOVE REALLY IS AND THAT NEVER WILL THE FUTURE BE SO BLACK THAT THEY CANNOT HAVE ONE..... THESE KIDS ARE EVERYTHING WE HAVE..... LET'S HELP THEM BECOME BETTER LEADERS THAN WE HAVE NOW.... HELP THEM SEE THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE

MY BEST
DONNA

soraya

05-16-2002, 02:21 PM

you are so right...if we can change the point of views of a generation, it will help a hooooooooole lot!

Shortie

05-18-2002, 06:20 PM

The death penalty is such a debated topic. let me ask you this if your loved one was in the wrong place at the right time and did something that resulted in a death sentance would you want them killed. I believe that a person has to deal with what they have done there whole lives. It is far more difficult to deal with your actions then to be released from them. Murder is murder weither it be by gun, knife, rope, gas, fire, lethal injection or any other means. It is wrong that I do believe.

GOD is the only one I know of who should decide who lives and who dies.

I ask you this if you believe in the death penalty then go live in the condemed man or woman life of just 1 day. Live with the guilt, the fear, the hate, the self inflicted torture, and all that comes with it and see if you would prefer a life sentance or a death sentance. It is harder to live with your crimes then it is to be murdered for them. I am PRO LIFE even if you are an unborn infant or a grown adult or any where inbetween. I value life and hate that there is even a need for the death penalty but there is and now we need to teach our children and youth differently so that the cycle can stop. Killing the condemed does not stop the new crimes from happening but people can. Mentor, or just get involved with a child and you can make a difference. Who knows the impact you made on there life could have saved there life and someone elses before anyone even knew it was in jeporody.

Sabine

05-18-2002, 07:00 PM

i am really shocked, that we have people here who believe in the death penalty. i thought this is for prisoners rights - not for killing them ?

Pam

05-19-2002, 02:16 AM

Veronica, let me start by saying this. No one that is evil and has committed a crime of murder should ever be allowed to reenter society. This person should be put in a solitary confinement cell for the rest of their natural lives. This is addressed to BIG B Sweetie, if you believe in the Death Penalty then you should be pushing for all executioners to be killed immediately! ! ! ! ! ! Why you might ask, well..... if a person is given a death sentence for committing homicide then all should be and it is written in black and white on any death certificate of an executed individual that cause of death IS HOMICIDE>

You can not teach a child not to steal by stealing in their presence. YOU CAN NOT TEACH ANYONE NOT TO KILL BY KILLING

EXECUTE JUSTICE NOT PEOPLE

Shortie

05-19-2002, 09:39 PM

WELL SPOKEN PAM AND I TOTALLY AGREE..

Big B

05-21-2002, 01:37 AM

Several years ago. 2 white men chained a black man to a truck and drug him to death. Let's let those men talk with young people. NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IMHO these men should have rceived the death penalty.
before you get mad at me read below. I stated earlier that if I had to align with anyone's opinion it woulkd be Chuck Colson he wrote what is below.

"I questioned whether the circumstantial evidence on which most are sentenced today in fact measures up to this standard of proof. I still have grave reservations about the way in which capital punishment is administered in the U.S., and I still do question whether it is a deterrent. (In fact, I remain convinced it is not a general deterrent.) But I must say that my views have changed and that I now favor capital punishment, at least in principle, but only in extreme cases when no other punishment can satisfy the demands of justice.

So in spite of my misgivings, I've come to see capital punishment as an essential element of justice. On the whole, the full range of biblical data weighs in its favor. Society should not execute capital offenders merely for the sake of revenge, rather to balance the scales of moral justice which have been disturbed. The death penalty is warranted and should be implemented only in those cases where evidence is certain, in accordance with the biblical standard and where no other punishment can satisfy the demands of justice."

Steve

soraya

05-21-2002, 02:23 AM

I understand your opinion but cannot agree with it. what the government does, sounds like a serial killer practise to me. first you take someone away from his or her family, you lock them up in a small room, with no contact and almost no rights nor privileges. these people are waiting for years until somebody who's a complete stranger to them that he or she has to die and on which date....the only difference with a serial killer is that these people might have committed a crime. if the government is so keen on justice they will not commit the same crimes as the persons they find guilty.

B-Ray

05-21-2002, 03:54 AM

>>>biblical standard <<<

Where it say, not 7 times but 70 times 7 (forgiveness) fit into justifying the execution by Biblical standards is my question?

By biblical standards, we are living under grace, not law. What a person wants to believe is there business, but to base it on something that's not with the basic truth, brings there belief system in question, but not there right too believe it.

danielle

05-21-2002, 05:22 AM

"...only in extreme cases when no other punishment can satisfy the demands of justice."

Wasn't it only a couple of hundred years ago that here in the United States capital punishment "satisfied the demands of justice" when people were accused of witchcraft? People were hanged, drowned, and murdered and it was justified by the individuals carrying out the punishment. It was based on Biblical principle and was deemed a fit punishment to fit the crime. Trials were held and people were found guilty based on certain evidence. It sounds absurd to us today, so imagine how absurd killing people in state sanctioned murder will sound to future generations.

Pam

05-21-2002, 01:02 PM

Thanks Shortie, I do appreciate someone with a good opinion. :) I will reply to others tonight . Gotta run for now.

REMEMBER execute justice NOT PEOPLE

Pam

05-21-2002, 01:04 PM

While I am thinking about it we have an organization here in AL that could use some good people and their opinions. You do not have to live in Al we have members over seas. They have a website set up also. http://phadp.org/

Thanks you all for your support.

Pam

05-22-2002, 12:55 AM

Big B
The thing is HOW many people that have been convicted with totally circumstantial evidence are really innocent. Once you execute them you cant go back at a later date and say "Oh my we made a mistake" It is tooooooo late then. So better to be safe than kill innocent people I think.

Shortie

05-24-2002, 09:27 PM

t6ahnk you pam i was just being honest and really speaking about how I feel from my heart. I truly value life and do not want more murder to take place. It is sad..

vnvdvc

05-24-2002, 11:59 PM

i just want to go on the record as one who does not support the death penalty.

Pam

05-26-2002, 01:34 AM

well THANK YOU vnvdvc

We appreciate that or at least I do. :)

Amy

01-26-2004, 01:39 AM

I do not believe in the death penalty. Why should our lawmakers tell us it is wrong to kill but then kill those who do kill. It helps no one and only spreads the hurt.

rosita

01-26-2004, 01:48 AM

I have two loved ones on the row. Texas has the law of parties. Accomplice laws. I will speak on this to say they did not have to push for the DP in their case. I was prepared for 40 years. Could have accepted that. But the prosecutor was like an obssessed devil. He was vicious. Anyway the prosecutors got what they wanted. Society will not benefit whatsoever from their death. They did not kill anyone. So they are condenmed for the action of others. That is total insanity. I have been heartbroken since this nightmare began for us. I work everyday in one way or another to get people to listen to me. The death penalty is misplaced revenge. It does create a whole new set of victims. And life for our loved ones as well as us is totally different now.

bigbree31

01-26-2004, 01:53 AM

I believe in death penalty but in a case to case matter. There was this case in Michigan a couple of years ago where the man killed his girlfriend and her two kids and his girlfriend sister two kids. Total people he killed 5 after he killed them he went out to dinner with another woman. Now why should he get a chance to live when those babies can't all which were under the age of 5 I might add. Let see how you would feel if you had someone under the age of 5 get killed in your family would you still think the same way about the death penalty?

rosita

01-26-2004, 02:09 AM

That is an unfair question for someone who has two on the row. Who did not kill anyone. But no one cares or even listens to us. Let me ask you something how would you like your man sent to DR for a killing that an accomplice did? This is not my imagination or wishful thinking or false innocence. They did not do it and it all came out in the trial. Well as for your question I do not like kids being killed. In Texas lots of kids get killed especially by their parents. I don't have any young kids. Mine are grown. But no I would not want the DP for that situation if they were my kids. At a recent anti DP event I attended a group called Pax Christi passed out some little cards. They can be signed and witnessed by the person listed on the card. It says in the event I would be murdered I do not want anyone given the DP for that crime. I signed it, had two witnesses sign it. I carry it in my wallet. I am a Catholic. I do not believe in killing in my name.

TNC

01-26-2004, 02:50 AM

I dont normally get involved in these kids of topics, but for some reason I couldn't stay out of this. Anyways, I used to think that if someone killed my child then they not only deserved to die, but I wouldn't be happy until they did. Within the last 6 months or so I have changed my mind. I cant say how I would really feel if it ever came down to it, but as of now I would prefer Life in Prison without parole over death. There are a couple reasons why.

1) There are so many innocent men on DR and I would feel so bad if someone who had claimed to be innocent was killed then later the real killer was discovered. I couldn't just look at the wrong mans death as a "oops we made a mistake".

2) If someone killed my child then I think that killing them is giving them the easy way out. I would rather them suffer and think about what brought them to DR every day of their life.

Now keep in mind that I'm not speaking this torture of everyone on DR because I dont believe that some that are there deserve to be there because A) they really are innocent or B) the punishment doen't fit the crime.

flygirlaa2

01-26-2004, 07:50 AM

If someone killed my children or family, no, I would not want them to get the DP. I DO NOT BELIEVE IN IT! I would pray that they found Jesus and that I had the courage to forgive them myself.

MiamiChica22

01-26-2004, 08:03 AM

I vacillate on the Death Penalty issue. Do I think Timothy McVeigh should have been executed? Oh hell yeah, without a doubt! And I think he should have gotten it like he gave it. And I would have injected him myself had anyone asked me. But...having written that...the saying that ten guilty men should go free before one innocent one is punished holds true for me, also. So basically I don't have a yes/no answer. But I lean toward supporting it [and all of this is just my opinion] but the more time I spend here on PTO and learn the stories behind each case, I swing back toward not supporting it...on that note...

Eboniizs

01-26-2004, 09:01 AM

I also use to vacillate on the whole DP topic, there are some crimes that are so hideous and unforgiving, I’ve actually thought giving the perpetrator an injection, was too lenient. For example John Wayne Gacy, here was a case of a man that choose to murder dozens of young men, and then lived knowing that the bodies of these young men, laid beneath him when he slept at night. John Gacy didn’t only torture, mutilate and perform deviate sexual crimes against these young men, he gained their confidence by offering them ways to earn money. He use the ruse of needing sewer tiles dug in his crawl space, many of his victims dug their own graves. Do I feel bad that the state of Illinois chose to kill Gacy, absolutely not, I remember the night he was executed and thinking if only his victims died in such a humane fashion.

Do I still feel the same way… No!

Now in saying that I also am aware of many individual cases where innocent men spent years on the row, only to be vindicated in some cases over twenty years later. It has to make people pause and question how many more innocent men & women are rotting away in prison that don’t belong there at all. For that reason, I don’t support the death penalty. Then there’s the moral question “if anyone other than God has the right to take a life”. I don’t believe God will view the breaking of one of his ten basic laws that he set forth for us to govern our lives any differently if it’s an individual or a state sanctioned murder. The taking of another person life is murder!!

I also have had penpals on DR, and I have to honestly say these don’t appear to be men I’d need to fear. But I also met them after the fact, after years of them having time to reflect on the life styles and choices that brought them to the row in the first place. Would I have felt the same way prior to this change in their demeanor? Probably not!!

What also in not fair is how some people receive lesser sentences for virtually the same crime, it evident that one’s ability to hire proper counsel also dictates the outcome of a trial. We’ve lived through countless saga’s where the rich & powerful basically can do whatever they want and receive little more than a slap on the hand. Where as the average JOE will pay with his life.

I also think for anyone to have committed the types of crimes, such as the one Gacy committed, that they must be very sick individuals. Somehow the powers that be have been able to twist one’s ability to maintain a normal façade to mean the person is not insane. But think about how demented a persons mind must be to even have thoughts, not less be capable of carrying out those thoughts. I’m not saying they shouldn’t be held accountable, or that they don’t need to be removed from society, but taking their lives isn’t the answer.

Gemini

01-26-2004, 10:31 AM

You said it all Eboniizs, I wholeheartedly agree with what you said. It is sooo wrong to take a life in ANY circumstances.

susan the finn

01-26-2004, 10:56 AM

I don't believe in DP either...but you all knew that already. I agree also with Eboniitz. Well said.

Susan

Keltria

01-26-2004, 01:29 PM

Totally against - i write to death row prisioners and i quote from a letter i received.

"I understand that i made a horrible mistake and that has caused so much pain. That was a crime i committed when i was 17 and i am not that child anymore. I have grown up into a responsible caring adult who abhors what i did. Should i pay the ultimate price for what i did as a stupid child. To be honest with you, i dont believe i should. I do believe that i have forfeited many rights because of what i did, but i do not think i should forfeit my life. It is very easy for someone who is not directly involved in this to point fingers at me with hate and condemnation, desiring my execution, but take that same person and put them in my shoes, WHAT CHANGES THEN?....."

How can one possibly agree with the death penalty. People can change.

divita

01-26-2004, 01:36 PM

I do not believe in the death penalty. If it is supposed to be a deterent to future criminals, then it has definately failed. It is not effective as a system of punishment in that it is not FAIR, SWIFT and CERTAIN. With out these elements it is not effective. I belive that God's final judgement and punishment would be worse than anything man could do.

I have children and struggle everyday as a Christian with, vengenance is mine sayeth the Lord. If somone hurt my children, I can't honestly say what I would do to them but I sure as h!@l wouldn't want them locked away from me where I couldn't get to them. I know that sentiment is not right, but I am only human and pray daily that my heart will be changed.

StacysWar030

01-26-2004, 01:43 PM

WOW!! I truly don't ususally get involved with these types of debates. There are SO many good points to either side of this issue. It's like the whole abortion debate...good points either way you look at it!! Do I believe in the death penalty? In some cases ABSOLUTELY!! When it involves inncocent children!! PERIOD!! That I will NEVER change my mind on. Why should my tax dollars pay to warehouse some malicious evil person who has NO heart and kills children? Take the chance of him/her getting parole someday (and they do) or escaping (happens all the time) just so they can get out and do it all over again to another child? Can't see the reasons for NOT killing them!! Now that said, I am one of those that disagree with MOST cases that are DR!! People that actually didn't commit the murder, but was there or helped hide the evidence. NO WAY!! And truly I hate the way prosecuter's go about getting the DP!! It's malicious and evil!! And TOO many of our innocent loved ones are on DR!! And too many of our loved ones truly don't deserve the DP!! Now that said, because it's the way it is right now, I think all states should just do away with it!! I say that because of the innocent!! I'm tired of innocent people being punished. And I agree with what someone else said 1 innocent dieing is 1 too many!! So maybe that's all wishy washy. I don't know!! It's just my opinion!

Stacy

Rostonhall

01-27-2004, 10:45 AM

Never have. Never will.

1crazib_x2

01-27-2004, 11:18 AM

OK!! Now, I've had a few "all nighters" with tha girls in here rallying for tha fellas on tha row. I DO NOT BELIEVE IN TAKING A LIFE 4 A LIFE!

HOWEVER....

When it comes to a child my opinion duz a 360... my 10 yr old was raped 2 yrs ago, by a 260 pd.~ 6'1" 14 yr old. Ripped both vaginally and rectally. This was a HUGE kid, tha thought of an adult doing this............ I dunno?!?

imissrondale

01-28-2004, 02:15 AM

I absolutely do not believe in the death penalty.Do not get me wrong people that kill should be punished but,just thnk about it.A man/woman kills someone then they get punished by death.Now are you not commiting the same crime they committed.You are playing God and taking someones life in your hands just like they did.Eye for an eye tooth for a tooth i guess,But i truly think they should be sentenced life w/out parole killing them does not solve the problem. But that is just my opinon.

lulu

01-29-2004, 11:47 AM

totally against it

Slainte

01-29-2004, 02:26 PM

I support the death penalty.

CET

01-31-2004, 09:36 PM

I joined Minnesotans against the Death Penalty last month. It is my opinion that people start out with the idea of the death penalty for the most heinous of crimes. But then, it is used for the mentally handicapped, the mentally ill, the spooked and high teenager surprised during a robbery who shoots someone, and of course if it is a law enforcement person. but even for the death penalty a person can be convicted on the testimony of others trying to save their own hide, false testimony, etc. The idea that a person can't have "closure" for a crime unless the killer is killed makes me furious.

rosita

01-31-2004, 09:56 PM

CET, good for you. You have come to an intelligent rational decision. A civilized way of looking at things. Good for you. The movement to eventually do away with the DP needs people like you. I understand maybe in the case of serial murders, mass murders some may still reserve the DP. There are too many who are innocent. And I am totally against anyone given the DP for being an accomplice. In other words someone who did not engage in any type of murder. That is not an eye for an eye. Many who want to DP always use that as a rationale. Thanks. No more law of parties in Texas!

rosita

01-31-2004, 09:57 PM

CET, good for you. You have come to an intelligent rational decision. A civilized way of looking at things. Good for you. The movement to eventually do away with the DP needs people like you. I understand maybe in the case of serial murders, mass murders some may still reserve the DP. There are too many who are innocent. And I am totally against anyone given the DP for being an accomplice. In other words someone who did not engage in any type of murder. That is not an eye for an eye. Many who want the DP always use that as a rationale. Thanks. No more law of parties in Texas!

FriscoLady

02-01-2004, 01:57 PM

My niece could have received the Death Penalty for the crime that she was wrongfully convicted of being an accomplice too. She was 16 at the time.

As I have said in other posts concerning Holly that I KNOW she is INNOCENT, because of the circumstances of the crime and of the fact, that she was sitting right next to me in my car when the murder happened.

However, because she asked for a ride to meet me from the people who commited the murder, the state says she had to know that the murder was going to happen. Holly DOES NOT lie. When I was raising her I was amazed that even when it got her in trouble, she would always tell "Aunt Patti" the truth no matter the consequenses to her.

She told me and the court that she WAS NOT TOLD OF OR OVERHEARD DISCUSSION OF, AND DID NOT HAVE FOREKNOWLEDGE OF the plans to murder while she was in that car or at anytime.

She is doing life plus fifty years because the Judge did not believe that she did not hear, or know of this murder that her school mates eventually committed.

So, as to the Death Penalty, I do not believe in the Death Penalty for any reason, all it does, is create another set of victims to the original crime and if the individual executed is innocent, well we know how much the state cares.

I will continue to work to have my niece exonerated!

I will continue to work to have American prosecutors, judges, and politicians brought under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court in The Hague to be tried for Crimes against Humanity for each and every murder (i.e., execution) committed by the various states and Federal Government of this country. I do not believe that the death penalty will be ended from within this country. It will take international pressure, economic sanctions, and trials in the International Criminal Court as I mentioned above to stop the death penalty.

I know that the United States does not recognize the International Criminal Court. An individual who does not recognize the courts of this country would be hunted down and brought to the supposed justice of those courts regardless as to whether they recognized the court's authority or not.

The International Criminal Court should take the same attitude towards the leaders of any nation accused of criminal acts, whether their government recognizes the International Court's authority or not.

Patti

cin

02-01-2004, 02:03 PM

I have mixed feelings about it I was just wandering ?
No. I´m totally against the deathpenalty, I think it´s wrong to murder in the name of the law.

dutch penpal

02-04-2004, 06:32 AM

absolutely AGAINST the death penalty!!!

lulu

02-04-2004, 08:27 AM

CET that is the point, it does not bring closure. I totally agree. DP only creates a whole new set of victims

Luv2Luv

02-17-2004, 12:44 AM

Totally against it.

Kyla

02-17-2004, 03:11 AM

I am totally against the death penatly. It causes more pain upon pain, I understand the victims families have feelings and rights, but so does the person that the states are murdering families. I truly believe in justice, but there is other forms of justice than to put a person to death. It is no different from them murdering a victim to begin with.

If you could meet and talk to families and friends of people on death row, and even take time out to get to know someone on death row, I truly believe that EVERY PERSON would have mixed feeling, to total negativity on the death penaltly. We all make mistakes, I mean, we drive recklessly everyday, and I be no one here can say AT LEAST once in there lifes they havent come close to a horrendous accident. I know and relize that this doesnt compare to the death penalty but the thing is, we ALL make mistakes, and we are all capable of forgiveness and rehabilition.
I ask this? What about the jailhouse snitches, and people getting sentencing reduced that have sometimes commited worst crimes than the people that are being sent to death, just to go home. I could sit here all night and write and write about incidents to do with this.
What about the innocent people? DNA has proven that innocent people have been on death row, some even executed or died of natural causes while being on death row. The death row in barbaric, its cruel and unusual punishment, and it needs to stop TODAY.

rosita

02-17-2004, 10:40 PM

Once again I am going to get on my soapbox. Because I am tired of this!@!!!! Some men are on death row solely as accomplices. DID NOT COMMIT A MURDER!!! There are men who could be cleared by DNA evidence. An accomplice in Texas does not even have to be at the "scene" of the "crime" yet you NEVER hear about folks clamoring for the reduction of sentences for those sent to death row for NOT COMMITTING MURDER. I know a lot about this subject. Unfortuantely more than I even want to know. There are innocence projects for DNA exoneration. And that is good. But that will not help others sentenced under accomplice laws. Charge these folks under the lesser included offenses. Quit sending NON MURDERERS to death row. Especially in Texas. Death Penalty capital of the world.

Celtie

02-17-2004, 11:57 PM

I don't believe dangerous people should be paroled out of prison to re-commit crimes such as murder, but it's hard for me to think of an instance where state-sanctioned killing of a human being is justified. Every human being is capable of change; we all know stories of people who've redeemed themselves while they've been inside, to say nothing of wrongful convictions. And I personally know of cases where the death of the murderer brought no peace to the victim's family members...frankly, when your loved one has been murdered, there is no closure in any case. We are the supposed leader and superpower of the free world, and are the only country with that status who sanctions the DP. This is not a topic I will "debate" at a social gathering or anything, but here among PTO members, I see enough respect for us to be able to honestly state our opinions. Bless you all.

JustLisa

02-18-2004, 12:01 AM

Very interesting thread... Before I got involved with inmates on a personal level and before I started reading alot about people sentenced to death and their stories of how they ended up there I sure as heck believed in the death penalty - I thought an eye for an eye, thought that people who received the death penalty had committed a horrible heinous vicious murder.. then I started reading more about it and some of the sad cases and people wrongfully convicted... and my thoughts on this matter changed.. I will say that I don't believe in it anymore except for a very small percentage of people incarcerated - Robert Yates, the Ted Bundy's, the John Wayne Gacy's and Charles Campbell's, etc.

Celtie

02-18-2004, 12:08 AM

lisaandmichael, Just goes to show you that education is important for everyone. Most of us have experienced having an opinion about something even though we were quite ignorant of the topic, and then if we were fortunate enough (or smart enough) to become better informed, we've often changed our opinions. That's why it's so important to really listen to people without pre-judging them. This website has opened my eyes to so much, and I'm truly grateful for the people who've been honest and forthcoming in their stories. I really respect the folks here at PTO.

bunny

02-24-2004, 02:37 PM

I am so glad that so many of you have really well reasoned opinions on the death penalty. I am absolutely against the death penalty and I don't believe that anyone is pure evil. The government should not have the right to kill people. I cannot begin to understand how the current system came about, but I am so glad that so many of you are humanitarian and open minded enough to realize taking a life for a life just doesn't make any sense.

CHoffer

02-24-2004, 03:48 PM

I DO beleive in the death penalty. However I have to say that I in no way feel like a person who was only an accomplance and did not pull the trigger or give that fatal blow deserves the same sentance as the actual killer. I do understand that their are men/women on death row that are innocent(as we have seen in recent cases overturned), however if you go back and research MOST of these peoples past they were in no way saints. From what I have read very few of the people on death row were "in the wrong place at the wrong time". In this world there has to be an ultimate price for unspeakable crimes. This is only my opinion and I in no way mean any disrespect to those that have loved ones on the row or their opinions.

LSRB4LYFE

02-24-2004, 04:37 PM

I have a loved one on DR and I have mixed feelings about the death penalty...I want to see justice served, killing innocent people just coz they did not have proper legal representation (read:$$) is not right .
On the contrary, I read stories about violent murderers...stories that make you go "hmmmmm..." and if its true and they fess up and not blame it on their mama or poor upbringing or drugs... I know I will not shed a tear nor will I stop the Governor but turn my back, let God deal with it, who am I to judge anyway?

Stevesbabydoll

02-24-2004, 05:10 PM

while it has been proven that the death penalty is not an effective crime deturant, i agree with it in certain circumstances. Those circumstances being: If a person commits a heinous, violent crime, and there is not a shadow of a doubt that this person was the one who actully committed the crime. I mean, if there is a 99.999....% chance that the person did it, keep them in jail for the rest of their lives, but dont concider the death penalty until that number reaches 100%. I also think that in order to be concidered for the death penalty, the inmate must show that he or she will commit a violent act again if given the chance. I mean, a woman goes nuts and murders her abusive husband in his sleep....shes already gotten rid of who she wants to, shes not out for random people. While i generaly dont believe that the whole eye for an eye concept is right, i do think that, thinking purely economicly, not at all emotionaly, it is better to put someone who meets the criteria to death, then it is to continue to house a murderous felon who will never again be a productive member of society. I do see both sides of the issue very clearly however, which is why for the most part I do not believe in the death penalty, as inmates sitting on death row who meet my criteria are few and far between.

cjjack

02-24-2004, 05:16 PM

I do believe in the death penalty. I know that is unpopular, but when it comes to children being killed, I'm sorry but I think death is a just punishment. I have read a lot about innocent people being condemned to death and that is extremely disturbing. But when the evidence is overwhelming and concrete then I have to agree with it.

Rostonhall

02-24-2004, 05:30 PM

CHoffer, what difference does a person's past make? If they are innocent of murder then that's just what they are INNOCENT. No matter what they did in the past nobody deserves to be facing death for a crime they didn't commit. And I'm speaking from experience here as the man I love is one of the people you desciribe. He was actually in prison when the crime took place and got set up for it. How do you think it's been for him spending 19 years on Death Row for a murder he didn't do? Yes, we are both fully aware that if he hadn't been in prison in the first place he woudn't be where he is now but that doesn't change the fact that he's INNOCENT. The fact that he wasn't 'a saint' should have no bearing on the matter, none at all.

Rose

CHoffer

02-24-2004, 05:50 PM

What I meant by that comment is that I have read on occassion that either they were "set up", or "in the wrong place.....", and if these two things had not happen then they would be a piller of the community. Most of and I say most not all of the guys on DR were in no way pillers and most had commited prior crimes. Maybe petty crimes but they were far from walking the straight line. I in no way meant to say that I believe that those who do not do the crime deserve to be put to death. And you said it yourself if your loved one had not been in jail or had a record already chances are he would have never been targeted for this other crime, so in deed the past does matter. And no he does not deserve to die for a crime he did not commit.

CHoffer

02-24-2004, 05:55 PM

And I say again that this is just my opinion and as warped as it may seem it is just that, an opinion. No disrespect meant

blueviolet

02-24-2004, 11:42 PM

I was pro-death until I became educated...

j pieczynski

02-25-2004, 06:06 PM

God bless you Kristin.Nice to hear from abroad how our justice system is percieved.Now if we could just convince the system here.I do not ever,emphatically,positively,forever more,for any reason or crime,back the death penalty.It is archaic,wrong,sinful,barbaric and too fraught to too many errors.As I stated in another post God exiled Cain when he killed Able and sent word that no human was to touch him.So He made the rule and set the example and it is not up to us to change it.Death penalty is blood thirsty and vengeful and brings us to the level of the murderer.Let's not go there.

LSRB4LYFE

02-25-2004, 06:10 PM

Hi J, I feel u on that point but then again why did God destroy wipe out Sodom and Gomorrah..?

j pieczynski

02-25-2004, 06:21 PM

Good question lsr-but He is who He is and does as He does.But He set down the rules for us,and we are but who we are.

MoReNoLuVzNoTtY

02-28-2004, 02:49 AM

I am not sure.

Kyla

03-01-2004, 03:12 AM

As someone said on here that I have great respect for
The bible says a eye for and eye
But it also says turn the other cheek

I am totally against the death penalty, but I have gone on about it in a previous post on this topic. There is always a better solution that taking another life.

BOsPiece

03-01-2004, 11:11 AM

I absolutely hate the death penalty -- it's bad enuf that we already have innocent people locked up. With the death penalty in force -- too many innocent people have been killed, and innocent people would continue to get killed. I used to be for it as regards blatant guilty people for heinous crimes, but because the law is too funny, too many innocent people would still get killed so I hate it.

Emma_

03-03-2004, 08:03 AM

NO MATTER WHO OR WHY, KILLING IS ALWAYS WRONG!
If we practic eye for and eye, the world will go blind!!!
/Emma

BOsPiece

03-03-2004, 09:22 AM

And that is why God changed "eye for an eye" in the new testament. Amen.

squeaky

03-05-2004, 09:35 AM

as one that has been on both sides of the fence,had a cousin raped,tortured then murdered,and have two friends convicted of second degree murder.even before they where convictedi saw first hand the pain it caused for the families of those on dr.their families did not commit the crime and i can say,when my cousins murder was put to death it did nothing to heal my family,only caused another innocent family to suffer the pain of losing a loved one.i really can't nor have i ever seen where putting that man to death solved anything.it didn't bring my cousin back.i will also tell you it did rip my family apart,for some thought he should have been put to death,and some thought differently.i my self write him before his death sentence was carried out and told him i personaly had forgiven him,but i could not speak for the rest of my family.in writting him what i found was a man that was in much need of intence therapy and if he had received that therapy probably would of never done the crime he did,that if instead of being put to death was given therapy,he probably could of become a productive part of society at some point in his life.this was a man that had for most of his childhood had been serverly abused by a stepfather,after doing much research i found that out.it was never introduced during his trial and perhaps should have been.sorry this is so long.but for the most part i am against the death penalty have been since the age of 16.i'm 44 now and still feel the same way.

Kyla

03-08-2004, 02:44 AM

squeaky
Thankyou so much for sharing your story, that was really powerful. It is always good to hear stories from both sides, and get all of the opinions out, and your story has done that. I wish there was more people like you that would speak out, the way you did. That was so kind of you writing to that man before his death sentence was carried out, and knowing your forgiveness, would of gave him peace.
Thankyou so much for sharing.

squeaky

03-09-2004, 01:12 AM

kyla...your welcome...i,ve seen some on hear state a murderer is a murderer.but what they haven't seem to understand in someways that may not be true...there's quite a bit of evidence that's never allowed too be presented in courts.that you don't always get the entire truth...would those that say someone that has commited a murder should never be released or that they deserve the death penalty..if they where told,the one that commited the murder had been harrassed for months with threats,stalked,recieved phone calls at all hours and that after reporting it nothing was done,and they just snaped one day and shot the one harrassing them,would that murderer deserve to be put to death or never get out of prison??the human mind can only take so much before it snaps..do they know going for weeks without food or sleep can also play a role on how people react to things as well...should that murderer also be put to death?or never come back out into society as well...or should both of those murderers recieve theropy and at some point be reintroduced back into society..should a serial killer really be put to death?when if they where alive their mind and way of thinking could be studied in hopes of finding just what made them a serial killer and perhaps one day help in preventing someone else becoming a serial killer,by know means am i saying they should be released back into society,but by putting them to death we haven't learned anything.do serial killers have a chemical imbalance of their brain,could it be a part of their brain is damamged and doesn't function correctly.could those things be corrected if caught early on in their lives if it indeed is a cause....God gave us intelligence we need to learn how to use it in these cases and perhaps prevent serial killings from happening or any other murder.

lulu

03-09-2004, 08:31 AM

eye for an eye was meant for the Lord, not us

rottn

03-11-2004, 10:12 PM

I used to believe in the death penalty until I had a reality orientation about it. First of all, killing is wrong, no matter who does it. Just because the Constitution condones it does not excuse the fact that a life is being taken before it's time for that person to go naturally. When I worked as a nurse with inmates I had the oppurtunity to meet people that have done some things to make you cringe. At first it was all I could do to not pull away when they needed something. These people treated me with respect and did nothing to hurt me and I came to believe that there is not bad in everyone, no matter what they are accused of. One of my patients had killed his wife, after doing time for attempted murder of his first wife. I still get letters from the row and I write back to him. This is a man who took Domestic Violence to the extreme. Now that my nephew has been arrested for Murder and Ohio is a death penalty state, I'm scared to death! They have no problem sentencing you to death, but the wheels of justice go really slow in Ohio ( thank God!!!! ). Whether he did it or not, I don't know. If he did, I have faith that he'll tell me the truth. This kid lived with me for a year and couldn't keep anything back, even if he took a dollar to buy a burger. He has a part of him that can't live with hiding anything. I also feel that if someone will never change, then let them live out their lives in a prison, and not escape it by the needle.

Kyla

03-12-2004, 12:02 AM

rottndobelover
Your story was really touching, you have seen it all.
You and your nephew will be in my thoughts. I agree, there are so many other ways that the death penalty.
Quite a few of the wardens and COs actually have stated, that they would prefer to work with death row inmates, than other parts in the prison, as the death row inmates show them the most respect.
These are the people that the states are murdering to :(

remiella

03-12-2004, 09:48 AM

I do not see one good reason for the death penalty. I cannot be convinced by any book, real life story, scholar, government or editorial that killing a perpetrator of a crime is right. I would love to see the death penalty abolished. Peace

Blue Fish

03-12-2004, 02:38 PM

I do believe in the death penalty. I think that it is a hard issue for all involved, and I feel for the families of the death row inmate. But when I see cases like the Green River Killer (who lived in my area), I support it. Just my opinion.

joshsgirl

03-16-2004, 12:47 AM

My response is simple... It is not my position to JUDGE anyone... I am against the DEATH PENALTY... no matter what the situation. We are not GOD how dare we take another life that he has given... I am a strong believer that God will JUDGE each of us accordingly I also am a firm believer that people make mistakes I guess what I am trying to say is that killing someone doesn't bring your loved one back, to me it just adds more pain.

katerina03

03-16-2004, 09:17 PM

I do not believe in the death penalty. But I am not so much against it for serial killers.

Roger's Girl

03-23-2004, 09:15 PM

I have a lot of opinions. Some I prefer to keep to myself. Some I don't. When it comes to the death penalty or any other form of punishment. I truly believe that the punishment should fit the crime. But again this is just my opinion.

Manzanita

03-23-2004, 09:30 PM

I do not because there are INNOCENT people that have DIED and are still on DEATH ROW..
mumia.. for one I know about ...

LSRB4LYFE

03-26-2004, 01:14 PM

I am about to present a speech on abolishing the death penalty..I had my classmates take a vote and 85% support the death penalty..the two major reasons given are:- people who commit heinous will kill again if released and they would feel "safer" if they are executed. 2) If given life w/out parole, they feel they pay taxes to support them while they are having it good because they have free "room and board" tv and recreation etc.. while their victims are dead...how do I still support the death penalty against such strong opposition? any ideas? please anyone??

Kyla

03-26-2004, 03:02 PM

What a interesting talk you are doing.
First off, LWOP is a better alternative, not only because we arent commiting another murder but it costs MORE in appeals for death row inmates, than them getting a LWOP sentence. THere taxes are actually giving some attorney a fatter pay check for doing these appeals.

Some people shouldnt be released from prison, but a sentence with Life Without Parol they wont walk out those prison gates, and they wont be able to re offend in the community. When they sit on death row, they get a single cell, fed, and NOT all Death Row inmates, but I know of a few, are allowed to purchase TVs Magazines, etc.

There victim are dead, but 2 wrongs dont make a right, and killing them isnt going to make it right. Its not going to bring peace to the families with there loved ones on death row, just more grief, upon grief.

PM me if you want any information, there questions are the easy ones to answer :)

j pieczynski

03-26-2004, 04:11 PM

Kyla is right.The total legal costs in appeals is staggering.The appeals can take 10 to 14 years.But also take into consideration that to make a blanket statement that those who commit heinous crimes will murder again is assuming that all murderers will murder again.Not true.Also the statement assumes that all those on death row are guilty,again not so.But to me the biggest 2 reasons to oppose the DP is that in making the choice for it we would then become murderers ourselves-no matter how you try to justify it or whitewash it-we assume that role just as surely as those convicted.Second reason is because of those who truly are innocent have been wrongfully convicted,even one of them is worth voting DP down.We have the right to remove them from society,but we do not have the right to remove them from the living.Last time I checked I didn't see anyone with the title of God written accross their foreheads.Am totally against it and proud that my state of Michigan Representatives voted it down.

strawberryKR

03-26-2004, 05:01 PM

To be honest I have mixed emotions about the death penelty! As person who has had a family member murdered, I hvae the feeling that peopel should pay for their crimes. In my case my cousin was shot 9 times in the back and dumped off of a bridge by 3 young men, 1 of which she knew and dated and another someone she knew and went to school with. Their are very many alligations in her death but in my honest heart I hate to say this but I kinda wish 2 of those men would have got the death sentence. They took someone I loved with all my heart and soul. Heather was a very bright eyed and smart girl who many hopes and dreams and all those things were taken from her that night. I can no longer pick up the phone and call my cousin, I can no longer right her a letter, I can not get in my car, on bus or plane and go vist her....I can but it is her grave I go and see. They took from me someone close to my heart and for that i do hold feelings toward them and I think they should be able to do the same thing to them as they did to my cousin.
However I do disagree with it when it comes to situations like little petty things they wanna send people to death row over, the fact it takes so much of our hard earned money, the fact these people do have loved ones and wifes or husbands sitting at home worrying about the day thier spouse is going to die, the fact that innocent people are put to death or almost have been, and the fact that it takes so long to exacute.
I have a wounderfull friend on PTO many of you may know her RandysBlondie20, Celene and I know her husband Randy is on Death Row. I honestly do not think Cel would have married this man if he was not wounderfull and a loving person. I pray every day that something will happen to get him off of DR because I know how much they are in love and I hope Cel that you did not get offended in way by what I have said. I love ay girl and I know your husband is a great man. I just look at it 2 ways, yeah I do belive in it but the same token I dont. I guess someone would have to be in my shoes undestand why I would agree with it, but I hope none of you do!

CelliePieGrrl

03-26-2004, 09:43 PM

I have a wounderfull friend on PTO many of you may know her RandysBlondie20, Celene and I know her husband Randy is on Death Row. I honestly do not think Cel would have married this man if he was not wounderfull and a loving person. I pray every day that something will happen to get him off of DR because I know how much they are in love and I hope Cel that you did not get offended in way by what I have said. I love ay girl and I know your husband is a great man. I just look at it 2 ways, yeah I do belive in it but the same token I dont. I guess someone would have to be in my shoes undestand why I would agree with it, but I hope none of you do!

Ky, you made me cry! lol In a good way though...you are such a sweetheart. No, I did not take offense at all, hun, you have every right to feel the way you do because of your cousin. I would probably feel the same about those two, or anyone that did that if she were my cousin. I feel you completely on that.

As far as my hubby, yes girl he is the most wonderful and compassionate person I have ever known in my life. He is so loving to me, his wife, and his family, and he did not commit murder, but because he was an accomplice, and due to the law of parties in TX, that is why he was sentenced to d/r. Thank you Ky for your prayers, we need them and appreciate them so much. I love you too girl, you are my little sis! ;)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
As far as the death penalty in general, no I do not believe in it. Of course it is very personal to me, and maybe a lot more so than to most people. (But) It has opened my eyes and changed my view on the death penalty, and I think the d/p is inhumane, and that no one should be put to death, especially not someone convicted solely under the law of parties.

Celene

blueviolet

03-26-2004, 10:58 PM

2) If given life w/out parole, they feel they pay taxes to support them ...

The death penalty is far more expensive than LWOP because of the cost of all the appeals. Timothy McVeigh was reportedly the cheapest death row inmate because he waived most of his appeal rights. I'll quote from my textbook:

Myth: The monetary costs of capital punishment are less than the monetary costs of life imprisonment without the opportunity for parole.

Fact: The monetary costs of capital punishment (that is the entire legal process) currently average between $2 million and $3.5 million per execution. The monetary costs of life imprisonment without the opportunity for parole are unlikely to cost more - and may cost much less -than $1 million per offender. It reportedly cost the state of Florida $10 million to execute serial killer Ted Bundy.

From "Introduction to Criminal Justice" 3rd edition (2002)by Bohm and Haley, Glencoe McGraw-Hill publishing.

Blueviolet

lulu

03-27-2004, 09:54 AM

jerrysfriend

03-27-2004, 01:18 PM

On behalf of my 8 year old cousin who 10 years ago was kidnapped, raped and died along a South Carolina highway. Yes it is necessary.

Kyla

03-27-2004, 04:01 PM

Lulu
I know Texas is one of those states, that has life or the DP. If they could re evaluate things, and change the DP to LWOP then they wouldnt seek the death penalty as often as they do.

Jerrysfriend
Im sorry for your pain, there are definately some horrible people out there that should never be released from prison.

babygirl350

03-28-2004, 02:03 AM

I am totally 100% against the death penalty regardless of the crimes involved.
Even though some of them may be very heinous and brutal, that doesnt give us the right to take their life. It will not bring back the life that was lost.
It also will cause more pain for the one who is esecuted his families.
We seem to live in a revengeful society and their are alot of blood thirsty people out there.
Now a LWOP sentence makes more sense to me. They will have their lifetime to find out why they did what they did and to make whatever kind of ammends they can make.
Even if it is just saying I'm sorry is a start.
God did not intend for us to kill people.
Many people who have been convicted (rightfully) of a murder charge, have spent their time in prison and have come out and led decent law abiding lives.
I have an ex brother in law who committed murder and he served about 25yrs. When he was released, he started working for the state until he retired a few years ago. He found God and religion in prison and would hold bible study classes for anyone who wanted to learn more about God.
It would have been tragic had he of been executed.
He came out to be a law abiding citizen and thru his ministering to any that would listen, helped to make this world a little better than when he went in.
So for the very heinous inmates, or the ones who it has been determined they will kill again, given the chance, I say incarcerate without parole.

Just my opinions and thoughts.
Hope is a good thing, it springs life eternal.

Pam

03-28-2004, 03:58 AM

Kyla

03-28-2004, 04:14 AM

Pam
Your post was really moving. The DA's and the state are good at getting rid of evidence when they know they are wrong to "save face"
The terrible thing with the death penalty is that you are fighting with time.
My thoughts and heart go out to you and your loved one on death row.
We will end this nightmare some day, in small steps, but it has to end.
Its people like you that can speak out that can make the differences.
Take care.

babygirl350

03-28-2004, 11:37 AM

:pissed: For those of you who dont know. I have been involved/love with a death row inmate for several years now. He has professed his innocence since day one of this nightmare. Since this wonderful state we live in lives by the Death Penalty laws and lives for being able to murder people whether innocent or guilty, he sits and waits wondering daily if his time will soon be over. This wonderful state has LOST or DESTROYED ALL the biological evidence in his case so therefore we cannot obtain any solid DNA evidence to clear him or make him guilty 100%.

If we lived in a state that did not live by the death penalty then we would know that there was time to try and clear his name without having to worry about them killing him. As it is we are rushing to do whatever we can do to try and help him because he has been under a stay of execution since July 13, 2001. Never knowing from day to day when the Al Supreme Court will decided to lift the stay and continue with killing an innocent man.

If we could only get the world to see that the death penalty is sooooooo wrong, then perhaps we would have a happy life. Do I believe in the death penalty. ABSOLUTELY NOT! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Pam, I am with you. Please dont be "pissed" at all of us. I AM AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY FOR ANY REASON, FOR ANYONE!
I agree with you there are many innocent people in prison or those that have passed on due to our laws. It isnt fair and it isnt justice either.
All we can do is try to keep lobbying and get the word out to everyone, this isnt the way.
I pray that one day all states will abolish the death penalty.
Just keep doing what you can and keep working at it with all the resources you have.
Remember not everyone here is for the death penalty.
You and your loved ones are in my thoughts and prayers.
Remember Hope is a good thing, it springs life eternal.

Mcmullin

03-30-2004, 04:30 PM

I have mixed feelings on this subject, In the beggining I was all
for the death penalty. I am the sister of a man who raped and
killed a family member and I know exactly how our family felt the
moment we got the news that my sister had been tortured and
murdered by a man who was angry at his wife and took it out on
the first female he saw. He fought against the death penalty
saying he was not in the right state of mind when he committed
this horrible crime and he got life. I was very angry for a long time
I felt he deserved to die. He took my sister's life in an instant and l
felt he should die the same way. My sister left behind a beautiful 2
year old daughter who is now without her mom and questioning why
her mom is not here. What do we say to her do we show her pictures?
Do we tell her what happened. It has been 5 years and I have changed
my mind somewhat, but I feel that God determines our fate and that
we have no say I have not forgiven this man and it makes my life
very difficult as the days go by because I was not raised to hate. And
I struggle with this on a daily basis. So I am mixed on this issue
sometimes I feel it is wrong (death penalty) and sometimes I am al for it.
My heart goes out to anyone dealing with the same situation

Kyla

03-30-2004, 05:30 PM

Mcmullin
Thankyou for sharing your story. It is a hard decision to make, and whatever opinion you choose, will be respected. What happened to your sister was a terrible thing. Your family will always be in my thoughts.

katerina03

03-31-2004, 04:46 PM

I think the death penalty is pointless as a deterrent because I dont think murder has been reduced because of it. You would think that if people were afraid of capital punishent then there would be fewer murders. Now, I don't know if the murder rate is up or down in the U.S but if it is down, it's certainly not due to people's fear of the DP. I also hate the death penalty because there are innocent people on DR. Could you imagine if that were you or a loved one? I could not imagine my son being on DR for a crime he did not commit. Also, I hate to say it, but good people sometimes lose it and do something incredibly insanely stupid and unfortunately they are not thinking about the the DP. Also, I wouldnt object to the DP if it were at least somewhat consistent so people knew what they were facing when they decided to take a life. The DP is so inconsistent that it is stupid.

E1950

05-12-2004, 08:47 PM

I do not believe in the death penality.

mags

05-30-2004, 04:00 PM

I also do not believe in the death penalty, Pam you put it in a nut shell.There are 2 sets of victims then. The one thing I don't understand is: how come they can flee bargain about the death penalty? Anyone know?
Margaret. from England.

mags

05-30-2004, 04:01 PM

:angry: I also do not believe in the death penalty, Pam you put it in a nut shell.There are 2 sets of victims then. The one thing I don't understand is: how come they can flee bargain about the death penalty? Anyone know?
Margaret. from England.

LoUiE'sLaDy

05-30-2004, 08:38 PM

I totally do not believe in the death penalty. God brought us in this world and god is going to take us out. I don't think someone else should have the authority to take your life. I think it is WRONG WRONG WRONG.

maidenheart

05-31-2004, 06:08 AM

I do not believe anyone has the right to take another person's life...ever. I have bypassed this forum for some time now, but this morning I am drawn here. The word justice in my opinion means that based on evidence ( often circumstantial ) that someone has commited an unjust action, after having been found guilty, they lose their right to freedom, their right to live in society. Period. The true meaning of justice should not be about giving people the right to decide who among those convicted should live or die. There is no consistency among the states, or among the individual courts, one person committing the same action in one state might serve 2 years, in another state that same act will get life, this indicates justice has become personalized, leniency and harshness of sentances are based on which judge hears your case and who has the better lawyer, or how much money the person has to invest in his or her case. Is this justice? As we know, when a jury is selected both sides try to place juror's they believe will best serve their side, it is indeed biased, in fact when you are a potential juror and are asked if you believe in the death penalty and you reply honestly no, you are often automatically dismissed. Consider how many people who are convicted are truly innocent, we have many statistics that prove our system is not always right or accurate, given that thought alone how can anyone condemn someone to the death penalty in good conscience? One innocent person being put to death is one too many. LWOP should be enough justice for the most serious offenses. Louie's lady say's it best, God brought us life, he alone has the right to take it from us.

prisonbud

05-31-2004, 10:06 AM

I do not belive anyone has the right to kill anyone.

Buddy

Wifey2Bee

06-02-2004, 09:24 PM

absolutely 100% I DO NOT believe in the death penalty:

1. it defies logic to kill someone for killing.
2. it does not reduce crime rates.
3. too many innocent people and wrongly convicted are on death row!!!
4. God is the ONLY judge, not us.
5. Murder by law is an act of revenge. The justice system is not supposed to be about revenge.

NukeChiefsWife

06-14-2004, 03:41 PM

Yes, I am for the death penalty. There are particularly heinous crimes which I feel warrant the death sentence. My biggest problem with it today though, is how sure we are that the individual who is given this sentence, is really guilty.
As we have seen in many instances, with the help of the Innocence Project, many people on death row have been released due to DNA testing. How in the world in this possible? There hasn't been just a few cases either. I would really like to delve into these cases, and find out the particulars. All these cases and more, certainly reflect poorly on the individual jurisdictions of sheriffs departments, homicide divisions and prosecutors offices. Time to hold these people accountable for each of these cases I say. And what about the attorneys that were responsible for each of these victims? They need to be held accountable too.

babygirl350

06-14-2004, 07:27 PM

eurolife23

06-14-2004, 07:59 PM

I think the US government should look at Canada in regard to Capital Punishment. Executions DO NOT deter people from committing murder.

Murder Rates in Canada

The removal of capital punishment from the Canadian Criminal Code in 1976 has not led to an increase in the murder rate in Canada. In fact, Statistics Canada reports that the murder rate for 2001 stayed stable for the third year in a row at approximately 1.8 homicides for every 100,000 population.

The total number of murders in Canada in 2001 was 554, just eight more than in 2000, but 167 fewer than in 1975, the year before capital punishment was abolished.

Murder rates are generally at least three times lower in Canada than in the United States. In 1999, Canada's murder rate was 1.8 per 100,000 population. In that same year, the U.S. homicide rate was 5.7 per 100,000 population in the United States, according to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics.

Canadian Sentences for Murder

While proponents of the death penalty may cite capital punishment as a deterrent to murder, that has not been the case in Canada. Sentences currently in use in Canada for murder are:

First degree murder - life sentence with no possibility of parole for 25 years
Second-degree murder - life sentence with no possibility of parole for at least ten years
Manslaughter - life sentence with parole eligibility after seven years

chatterchic_16

06-14-2004, 09:00 PM

Unfortunatly, I do believe in the death penalty, but I believe there should be very strict regulations on someone recieving the death penalty. I do not believe it's fair that only some states have it, even though I do believe in it I also believe that if all states don't have it then none should have it because we're all in the same country if one person commits a murder and gets the death penalty and another commits a murder but in a different state and gets life in prison thats not fair. Now if all states were to have it, I believe only cold blooded serial killers deserve it.

babygirl350

06-15-2004, 12:06 PM

Perrier

06-17-2004, 10:15 AM

I do not believe in the death penalty.

Studies have shown that execution is not a deterrent to crime .... studies also demonstrate that the cost of execution is many times higher than that of keeping a prisoner in for life.

And may I add that the USA is the only civilized country that continues to apply the death penalty and the only civilized country that continues to execute juveniles.

babygirl350

06-17-2004, 10:25 AM

NukeChiefsWife

06-17-2004, 05:43 PM

I believe in the death penalty yes, but certain individuals within the justice system that sends an innocent person to Death Row, I question. The problem lies with prosecutors, sheriffs departments, detectives, etc. who are not doing their jobs correctly. These are people who have been trained to investigate crimes & crime scenes and when an innocent person gets sent to death row, you have to start looking at those trained officials and the piss poor job they are doing. They alone are responsible for this. They are the ones that I hold accountable and it in no way changes my belief in the death penalty. I come from Washington State and if you'll remember Mr. Ted Bundy, he was from here. His atrocious crimes against women here and in other states certainly warranted the death penalty and that is exactly what he got. Those are the types of crimes I am referring to. We now have the Green River Killer who in exchange for information about other victims in this area, did not get the death penalty. He too deserves it. If this has upset you, I want you to know, that I do not believe everyone on death row deserves that fate. For me, it is the most heinous of crimes. Serial Killers to name just one. I am certainly not above having feelings for the those on death row. I do.

Damaris

06-24-2004, 10:04 AM

Hey, I'm Damaris and I used to be in favor of the death penalty until I started to be pen pals with this man on deathrow from Alabama. I do alot of reasearh on the death penalty so I frequentlt surf the internet about deathrow issues. Well, I came across his website on accident while trying to find some other info. Something about the details of his case made me want to write to him, so I did. It turned out to be the most beautiful experience in my life. He tells me how he feels and what he does while in his small cell. He told me that he like to write poems and raps. We have been pen pels for 6 mons now. He been on deathrow since 1997. I would be really sad if he were to send me a letter and tell me that his ezecution date has been set. I'm telling you, if you were able to write to a deathrow prisoner, your mind would change about the death penalty. Some of the people who are on deathrow were innocent or just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

babygirl350

06-24-2004, 05:13 PM

Damaris

06-25-2004, 07:36 AM

Welcome to PTO. Your last line really says it all. Execution will never bring back the dead and will only create one more family being a victim.
Remember Hope is a good thing, it springs life eternal.
Yeah Babygirl. My mind just completely changed towards the death penalty. And anyways, thanks for welcoming me. I just love this website.

babygirl350

06-25-2004, 02:36 PM

Yeah Babygirl. My mind just completely changed towards the death penalty. And anyways, thanks for welcoming me. I just love this website.

Glad you found us then. You will find alot of supportive people here and alot of good info and help. There are alot of strong people here that is for sure. Some of us have a long time to wait, others are less fortunate for their loved ones wont be coming home in all liklihood. There are some that have their loved ones home now and some of us only have a little longer to wait.
Remember Hope is a good thing, it springs life eternal.

starduk

06-27-2004, 03:56 AM

There are several ways to look at the Death Penalty.

I will respond to deterrance and to retribution..

Deterrence - does not work (in terms of capital punishment), and that is proven. People get the death penalty usually have committed heinous crimes - murder. Murder is usually a heat of the moment action and therefore the person does not have time to even consider the consequences of their actions.. For planned murders, part of the planning is not getting caught, and so deterrence does NOT work.

Retribution - In a nutshell, why does the state have the right to tell us we cannot murder, but that they can murder us? An eye for an eye is bull crap. Our society tends to lean towards rehabilitation of the offender in order to ease the transition of the offender back into society, however, if rehabilitation and the protection of society from unrehabilitated offenders are the only purpose of legal punishment, then the death penalty could be abolished.

I DO NOT believe in the death penalty.. no exceptions.

jimmy_sis

07-01-2004, 04:12 PM

I have been experiencing a change of heart recently on the subject of the death penalty. I used to think - yes - it has its place. Now, I have 2 brothers in prison, one dying of cancer. Neither had violent offenses, both were drug related and neither got the death penalty. As much pain as I feel for them in the situation they are in now, I have to think... What if they had been high on meth and got into a sticky situation and pulled out a gun and shot someone... Would I love them less? Would I want them to die for their mistake? - The answer is No - I love them no matter what. I know there are people on death row who committed a crime when they weren't in their "right" minds. Now, they are sitting there and remorseful for the crimes they committed. I sometimes feel like my brother did get the death penalty because he has been in prison and was not diagnosed with cancer until it is at Stage IV and had metastisized to other locations. He has only a few months left to live and a few months left on his sentence. If he doesn't get his commutation in a couple of weeks, he very well might never get to come home again. I think about the medical care the people who are in prison receive. Is it adequate? Is it possible that if my brother was on the outside they would have found the cancer earlier and he might have made it? These are questions I will probably never know the answer to. But - I have decided that - I cannot support the Death Penalty in any circumstance. Even if it is someone who has killed more than one person and is considered pure evil, I can't believe that it is right for another human being to determine who needs to be killed and who doesn't. I think that God will punish the people that need to be punished. I will also say that I believe that there are people that need to be locked up until they die. But - we should not kill people who kill people to teach people that killing people is wrong!

babygirl350

07-01-2004, 04:17 PM

sickofprisons

07-03-2004, 06:57 AM

O.K., I do believe in the death penalty, but in only limited cases. I also agree with those who have stated that it seems to be slanted against poor people- too true, and certainly reforms are needed to make every allowance that innocent people are not executed, and I don't agree with giving the ultimate sentence to those who were marginally involved. Now as, for the rest of the arguments: those who say "killing is always wrong" probably feel that killing in self-defense is acceptable, and that it is sometimes necessary in times of war, so that statement is meaningless. As far as the families of those on Death Row also being victims, that is absolutely true, but they are ADDITIONAL victims of the crime their loved one committed, not of the state or society, so put the blame where it is due!!! We on PTO are all too aware that we all suffer over the crimes committed by our loved ones and are doing the time with them, only those falsely accused can really complain against the system for their situation.

The death penalty is the sad and horrible result of sad and horrible actions taken. Oh, and as far as "playing God", again, that's a non-issue. I don't believe in God and therefore feel somebody has to do it. In this case, it's the free exchange of ideas in our country that results in laws. They can change.
If the majority of the population can be convinced that the death penalty is wrong, then that will become the policy, so all I can suggest to those who oppose it is to actively campaign , as I'm sure many of you do. To those who have a loved one unfairly on Death Row, my heart goes out to you and I wish you success in getting the situation reversed. To those who love someone on Death Row who is there as result of a heinous act they chose to commit, my heart goes out to you, too- you are another victim of their crime.

tilldeathpartus

07-03-2004, 07:12 AM

yes i do believe in the death penalty!!!!!!!!!! and no maybe i never took the time to write to a death row inmate uumm...maybe because i feel there's a lot more positive i could do with my time (nighthawk) but thanks for inlighting me and telling me how remorseful they feel for the crimes they've committed if that was so then they shouldn't have committed them.....the sad thing is i much rather put thought into the hideous things they have done and the family's they have broken up and lives they ruined then what they still might have to offer some people as sad as it might be to say are beyond help sorry if I've insulted anyone but it's just my opion

destiny221

07-04-2004, 07:36 PM

Do I believe in the death penalty?

No, never, not for anyone, not even Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden. Murder is never the answer, no matter who commits it.

babygirl350

07-05-2004, 01:25 PM

Do I believe in the death penalty?

No, never, not for anyone, not even Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden. Murder is never the answer, no matter who commits it.

Well that certainly is calling it like it is MURDER. It is just that when the state does it, it is legalized.

Remember Hope is a good thing, it springs life eternal.

LavenderRose

07-06-2004, 10:38 PM

To me, murder is murder -- whether done by an individual or by an institution or by a government. There is no justification.

If you look at it statistically, barring serial killers, murderers have the lowest recividism of any felon. The cost of execution is far higher than maintaining an inmate in prison for the remainder of his/her life. You cannot bring back an innocent person.

I've worked on several death penalty briefs. I've been in tears more times than not. Animals are not treated as badly as some of the people who are on death row. They suffered extreme abuse as infants and children; had known little, if any, any love; had little chance to get anywhere in this world. Many have well below average intelligence. Many have found redemption in prison, whether it be through religion, art or just plain remorse. Murdering these people serves no purpose other than revenge.

CathyC

07-06-2004, 11:00 PM

i do not believe in the death penalty, never did never will. cathy.c

HuGzz 'N StUff

07-07-2004, 09:20 AM

For those of you who are Pro Death, Do you realize that there are INNOCENT people on Death Row?? Think about this....If you or one of your loved one's were wrongly convicited...How would you feel about it?

Tracy
www.JohnSpirko.com

HuGzz 'N StUff

07-07-2004, 09:25 AM

Just another thought....Do people really think we have a Justice System? As far as I can tell, we may have one, but it's corrupt as hell! What a joke! :angry:

Tracy
www.johnspirko.com

Just Me 1973

07-14-2004, 01:54 AM

I am strongly against the death penalty. I come from a country where capital punishment doesn't exist, and for that I am grateful. There are WAY too many errors in death penalty cases to support this kind of punishment. Some are sentenced to death based on unreliable witnesses (they snitch and get rewarded). Some are sentenced to death because they had attorneys that just didn't give a damn. Some are sentenced to death based on FALSE evidence or tampered evidence. The jury NEVER get to hear the full story. Most death row inmates are guilty, but too many are innocent. And then you have the ones that are there because they allegedly knew SOMETHING and did not report it and before you know it... Death row next stop.

I have several friends on death row and one of them is innocent. I know he is innocent by studying his case, hiring a privat investigator (all of his friends pitched in and made that happen) who says that his case is a classic example of what can go wrong in a capital case. I have had the chance to visit death row, met several inmates and their families and there is just no way to justify executing anyone and leave a new set of victims behind.

It is difficult for me to understand how anyone can whole heartedly support the death penalty when so much proves to be wrong with the system. I find it difficult to understand how so many people in USA can live in total ignoranse of what is going on right before them.

Many people use the bible to support their beliefs both for and against the death penalty, and I wonder what is so difficult to understand when one of the commandment clearly says: thou shall not kill. It doesn't say that you shall not kill, only the government can.

A classic question I always get since I have children is: what if MY child got killed, then what would I say? I would say as many has said before me... DO NOT KILL IN MY NAME. Would I want to take the law into my own hands? Maybe I would want to do that. But I would certainly NOT want my country to kill for me! If I got raped, would I want my rapist to be raped? No, I wouldn't. What good would that do me? Would that heal my pain? No, it wouldn't.

To take another human beings life is wrong and of course the offender needs to be punished. There is no question about that. But what good does executing him do? It serves no purpose. Revenge purposes maybe, but the law isn't about reveng. It is about punishment and butcher people like they were some kind of animals is not a punishment. That is pure and nothing but revenge. Where does it stop? Who is going to kill the executioner? That person committs a murder also. Where does it stop?

I have debated this with so many people and no one has yet given me any good, solid arguments to WHY the death penalty should not be abolished. It is impossible to find them, because there are none.

I think that USA needs to look at how they treat their next, because I have never seen so much poverty and misery in my life! No wonder the crime rates are high. No wonder that so many people grow up to be a danger to themselves and society. I believe that the crime rates, murder rates would go down if people had a good life. I believe there are few people on death row that come from functional families. Most of them come from extreme conditions. That can not excuse their behavior, but it sure explains a lot and I wonder - who were there for them when they were children? Who protected them and showed them the right way? Probably no one... and then they grow up to be disfunctional grown ups, and walks the path that leads them to death row... How sad it all is... The death penalty creates nothing but more sorrow. I have seen it. I live with it. My boyfriend's brother is my innocent friend on death row. I see him struggling to deal with the fact that his country is eager to kill his brother. How can USA justify killing his brother? They can't... and if they do it is too late to say sorry, because if justice is supposed to be done, then I guess we have to execute the judge.. the attorneys that didn't do their jobs... and whoever else had a finger in killing my friend. That is the law, right? Again I ask... where does it stop? It is madness and it has to stop. No one wins in the charade they call justice. As my boyfriend says: Justice is for those that can afford it......

babygirl350

07-14-2004, 02:48 PM

Tears_N_Texas

07-15-2004, 12:22 AM

Yes. Some crimes should be punished with the death penalty. Murder(not self defense), rape, child molestation. I have family and friends that experienced each one of what I have named. Look into the face of a woman that has just been brutally raped(my sister) a child who suffers abuse at the hand of an adult(friend and myself), a Mother who has just been told her son or daughter has been murdered(my aunt). We all have our personal opinions until it actaully happens to us. I learned to forgive. However forgivness does not mean reconcilation (sp)

Just Me 1973

07-15-2004, 01:27 AM

I have had things happen to me, but I am still against the death penalty. Even though things happen to me or someone close to me doesn't change the fact that the justice system fails time and time again and that most of the DR inmates are there because of lousy attorneys, snitches, illness and so forth. To know that innocent people are being executed is enough to abolish the death penalty once and for all, because the system will NEVER be water proof. No one can EVER guarantee that an innocent person will not be executed.

My heart goes out to all victims in a capital case. When it comes to sending rapists to death row... well, just the idea makes my skin crawl, because that would send even more innocent men to death row. And also, the argument an eye for an eye would fall completely through.

Marci

07-16-2004, 12:55 AM

In no way have I ever beleived in the death penalty, I'm pro-life and it doesn't matter if that is an unborn child or a murderer, God is the only one with the right to take a life. My husnad had always been an avid believer the DP, for biblical reason, but since he's spent time on the inside, he's starting to sway a little.

I could talk all day on this but pretty much everyone said anyting I would've said (thanks for saving me the time).

Blessings!

JustTami

07-16-2004, 01:54 AM

NO. Although, if someone were to murder my child....would I feel the same? I really don't know.

tenderlove

07-16-2004, 09:24 AM

Although, people commit serious crimes that would warrant a death sentence, I personally do not beleive in the death penalty. People say "what would you do if a loved one was killed and you could make the decision on his/her sentence, what would it be?" my response would be a life sentence without parole. I would think about taking someone's life just because he/she took the life of someone I love. It just seems to mr that the individual should live the rest of his/her life with the memories of what they did. That to me is enough torture.
Just my opinion

Missouri Rose

07-16-2004, 06:57 PM

Until there's a guarantee that only the truly guilty are being put to death then no one should be. There is a higher authority that will hand out the ultimate punishment.

doughsgurl

07-17-2004, 01:32 AM

NO. Although, if someone were to murder my child....would I feel the same? I really don't know.

I completely agree with this statement

Dre's Lady

07-25-2004, 08:27 PM

I personally don't agree with it. I don't think its our decision to determine if someone should live or die. I'm not saying that its right for someone to take someones life and get away with it either. I don't know. I don't think that the death penalty is the solution.

rosita

07-25-2004, 08:35 PM

I cannot stand the death penalty. I am totally against it. It is not administered justly or fairly. There are too many problems with the ultimate punishment. There are super max prisons so there are places to house those who have committed heinous crimes. There are too many mistakes being made. Prosecutors have the decision about who lives & who dies. They decide who to go after while persuing the DP. I know of inmates who did actually commit a capital murder. They got life. I also know inmates who did not kill ANYONE but got the DP. This is ridiculous. I know I pray that one day it will be done away with.

Dre's Lady

07-25-2004, 09:24 PM

I DON'T BELIEVE IN THE DEATH PENALTY. ITS NOT UP TO US TO DECIDE WHO CAN LIVE AND WHO CAN DIE.

Damaris

07-26-2004, 07:39 AM

You couldn't have said it better! I hate how these states think they are God and that they can just kill someone. I can't stand it! DamarisI know that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and mine is a definite NO. Yes there are people that commit crimes that never need to see daylight again. Please dont misunderstand me...I am not of the belief that people should be patted on back for their crimes. Taking their lives is wrong also.
When you stop and think about it, it only causes two sets of victims. You have the person who was murdered family who are victims and then when you kill that murder you promote another set of victims...that murders family.
Most of the people on death row that are guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt would rather die than spend the rest of their natural lives incarcerated...so by executing them you are in a sense giving them what they want, whereas if you kept them confined for life that would be punishment.
To kill them punishes their family, their mothers and wives and children, WHO HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG! ! ! ! ! So think about it. God has not died and left any of us in charge to decide when a person should die or live. That is his decision and he is very much alive and in control.
For all who doesnt know, I do have a loved one on death row, but I felt this way long before he went there(Convicted on circumstantial evidence for a crime he didnt commit). Believe me when I say I know that the families are the ones suffering. I look at a 69 year old mother all the time who is whithering away for her son who could die at any time. (he is currently under stay of execution that could be lifted at any moment and execution carried out in as quickly as one week) This man has been incarcerated for some 20 years.

Orion9090

07-31-2004, 02:58 PM

I cannot believe it is right to take something that cannot be replaced. A human life cannot be replaced.

It is interesting that the laws tell us that we, as individuals, cannot act with vengeance. We cannot take "an eye for an eye." But what the law forbids us as individuals from doing is something the state says that it has the wisdom to fulfill. That is a crazy contradiction in terms.

So, no, I cannot support the death penalty for anyone, for any reason. The death penalty is state supported murder and vengeance.

Orion9090
Texas

alwayshis74

08-04-2004, 03:12 AM

francis

08-04-2004, 03:42 AM

NEVER!!!!!!!

it is barbaric and cruel!

even if it wasn't racist, and classist, which it most definitely is...i still am against vengence and state mandated murder..

Getsome

08-04-2004, 03:50 AM

Damaris

08-04-2004, 01:54 PM

I understand where you're coming from but I do not agree with you because there is no point in killing the inmate. I mean, it's not going to bring the victim back to life. I have a very big passion for the death penalty and I am always reading different articles about how the victim's families are doing after the inmate has been executed. Most of them say that there is no change at all. They are still hurting over the lose of their loved one. Execution is pointless and it does not change anything. Life in prison is excellent because the inmate will not be allowed in society anymore and plus he or she will still be able to live. Trust me, I do hate when a person murders someone else, but the states should not just murder that person back. Many people believe in the death penalty because of their lack of knowledge of this system today. All they know is someone got murdered and the murderer should die for what he or she did. Well, how do you know that the person convicted really committed that murder? There are many cases that innocent people were put to death for something they didn't even do! Then when the real criminal is found all they say is ooops we had the wrong guy. That's something you should think about. Damaris Fernandez P.

MamaSheila

08-05-2004, 02:16 AM

I have never known anyone who has ever recieved the death penalty nor do I know anyone who has had a friend or family member that has ever recieved capital punishment/death penalty. For me, it's a little like, I'm a person on the outside who's looking in, when I say I, personally don't bare a personal reason for how I feel about it. It's simply, how I've always felt about putting someone to death. I don't agree with it and I feel that it's wrong for one man to take another man's life, period. I happen to feel that the person who committed a murder, will have to deal with God about that, when that day comes. No one should have the right to take another person's life, not them, not us. They should, absolutely be held responsible for what they have done wrong but, to take someones life, no, it's not right. It's between that person and God on judgement day. Maybe, if a close family member's life was taken by someone and they wanted to give him the death penalty, then, maybe my views would change. I don't know. It just didn't seem like it was up to us but up to God to do what feels that person deserves as punishment. It's just how I feel in my heart. Thanks for asking this question and letting me express my views.
Love,
Sheila

MamaSheila

08-05-2004, 02:31 AM

candycane77707

08-05-2004, 02:38 AM

Well I might find lots and lots of people to disagree with me and I am sorry but it is the way I feel I defently believe in the death penalty There were three men who drugg a man from there truck decabatating him just because he was black there was a man who raped and strangled a 10 yr old girl then urinated on her afterwards and he was sentence to death and two of the three men where sentenced to death one life in prison I feel all played and equal part in the crime of dragging a live man to his death should all endure the same puisment there are so many cold blooded killers out in our world today that hurt innocent men women and children no life should be less inportant than another do to race sex or age and while I believ in God he does want us to follow mans law and right at the moment mans law is to have a death penalty and I would defently say if anyone out there ever hurt my children and one of my babies or loved ones would have to endure such a tragic death there life brought to and end before there time I would defently want them to have to pay that debt to society with there lives as well My heart does ache for the unjustice in sending innocent men women and even children there I dont think banning the death penalty will stop the unjustice I would pray that God intervenes when the innocent souls are facing such a trial everything in life has a cause and affect every action has a reaction and if you dont want to find yourself faces one of the worst possiable reactions than dont act I pray everyone will not be too angry with me for stating my beliefs and I pray even harder if you have an innocent loved one on death row they find there way home to you soon and God interevened Bless you all

Damaris

08-05-2004, 11:58 AM

Sheila, I definietly agreed with everything you said. I will admit though, candycane you did make me think alittle, especially when you were describing those horrific crimes. I have too have children, and if any of them were to killed in this fashion I would wanna kill the criminal myself. I'm not even going to lie. But killing is wrong PERIOD! You did make a good point, but I just cannot agree that man should kill another man.

Patty

08-05-2004, 05:42 PM

I absolutely do not believe in the death penalty!

Patty

Anakin

08-06-2004, 08:12 AM

I'm not buying that statement from above where most death row inmates are remorseful and full of sadness over their crimes.

I have dealt with many death row inmates and one thing I can tell you is this: the face you see at the clemency hearings, court proceedings, and on the media are often very different from the real person.

Officers often see the real deal...no crocodile tears and fake emotions. They see the real inmate in his habitat. Why should the inmate on death row care if an officer sees him for what he is? It won't help him get off death row by continuing the charadeback on the cell block.

If anything the inmate on death row is usally just sorry for himself because he got caught and now has to pay the price.

I'm sorry but I don't have sympathy for them. This thread asked for opinions and I'm giving mine. It probably contrasts with most people here but so be it.

Maggieb

08-07-2004, 01:02 PM

I'm absolutely, TOTALLY against the death penalty, in ANY circumstances whatever.

Maggie

Kyla

08-07-2004, 04:25 PM

Officers often see the real deal...no crocodile tears and fake emotions. They see the real inmate in his habitat.

Anakin,
In there habitat, such as caged like animals, 24/7 exept a hour every now and then for recreation.? Ever stopped to think maybe they act a certain way to COs, cause bad attention is still attention (that they dont get, are deprived from, but they are still human beings with emotions like you and me.).

Just my opinion, but I dont agree, in there habitat is natural at all, as they are treated like animals, perhaps they feel the need every now and then to act. (who wouldnt).

Also, I am totally against the death penalty.

Pam

08-08-2004, 09:49 AM

I believe in the death penalty if the person is proven guilty without a shadow of a dought. Some on here said how would you feel if your love one was facing the DP. My uncle is and he deserve everything there going to give to him for what he did. I know that sounds heart less but he took someones life.

the person who takes his life will be no better than he is. God is NOT dead and left anyone in charge to decided when and where someone should die.

Pam

08-08-2004, 10:04 AM

I believe that the death penalty should be used more then it is now. I truly believe that we have people in our society/prisons that are totally unfit for this life. America is the most violent society on the face of the earth and the death penalty is just cleaning up the gene pool for the rest of us. I would think that being left to rot in a jail for the rest of my life would be worse then being put to death. Having a needle stuck into my arm is considerably more humane then getting bludgeoned to death by a hammer because someone wanted my stereo at 2am. You are so right in assuming that being left to rot in a prisone for the rest of your life would be worse that having a needle stuck in your arm. MY POINT exactly. If you are administering the death penalty and executing..killing...someone as a form or punishment then you are failing to do that instead you are giving them the EASY way out. Whereas to sit in a maxium security facility in solitary confinement for the rest of your natural life is tougher by far.

I am a firm believer in being against the death penalty. Everyone says if it were your family member that was killed you would feel different. Well....I can only hope that if I am ever faced with that situation I will have enough of the Lord in me to still feel as I do today. I can assure you that I will know how it feels to be the victim of the state sanctioned murder of someone I love. I just cant tell you when.

Pam

08-08-2004, 10:10 AM

I guess, basically, in the bible, where one of the ten commandments states, "Thou shalt not kill" as one of the ten commandments that we should follow, I think, that it was written for, all of us, for each and every one of us, to follow. That's all I meant to say about it with the respect of various religions and beliefs, this is mine. Thanks you again, for hearing my two cents worth.
Love,
Sheila
You said that one right Sheila, We are not supposed to live by the old testament, according to pro death people BUT we are all supposed to live by the ten commandments still. It all boils back down to the same crap of our laws are based on God's word, we swear on a bible to tell the truth in court, spend money daily with the words of "In God We Trust" yet we can't pray publicly, cant mention God in school, cant publicly display the ten commandments, and we can as a whole in a state commit murder and get away with it. Or so we think. All those participating in state sanctioned murders or raising cain demanding they be done will have to stand in judgment from God for those actions.

Forever_Lovers

08-08-2004, 10:12 AM

I For One Do Not Believe In The Death Penalty. I Believe Those That Inject That Needle Or Pull That Switch Is No Better Than The One They Are Killing. Death Is The Easy Way Out. When Sitting In Prison They Have To Live With The Crime That They Committed, They Have To Relive It Day After Day. I Think That Is A Just Punishment. It's Punishment Enough For Those Who Committed Lesser Crimes, So Why Can't It Be For Those On Death Row. My Cousin Was Murdered In Washington, Dc Strung Out On Drugs, I Really Wish It Was Just The Drugs That Killed Her, But It Wasn't. To This Day We Don't Know Who Killed Her, But My Whole Family Has Agreed That If The Person Was To Be Found That We Would Not Seek Death, But Life. Life Without Parole Can Possibly Give Them A Chance To Redeem Themselves, In Their Eyes If No One Else's. Just My Opinion!!!!

Damaris

08-09-2004, 11:52 AM

That's right hotmama!

FaceFixer

08-09-2004, 03:11 PM

Not anymore. I believe our justice systems are too flawed, too politcal and too rushed to have the right to make a decision to take a life. Please understand, for years I truly believed in the death penalty but the system is corrupt at some level in each state. Juries are often NOT given enough options and often time, not enough evidence to determine if a person lives or dies. I suppose if the prisoner stood up and said they did it and wanted to die for it I could go along with that but, to have a jury of peers (which is often a joke in and of itself) listen to a DA who is up for election and has a "hot" case.......no. It is time for American to stop committing legal murder in all forms.

1sassysistah

08-10-2004, 11:38 PM

Do I believe in the death penalty?? Now on that question I somewhat straddle the fence on and have for quiet some time. But to answer the question YES I am one who believes in and is for the death penalty -- but only in certain cases, and those are very few and far in between.
Some of the pro-lifers in this thread have made intelligent very compelling arguments in defence of the death pently.
Some of you in favor of the death penalty have given sound intelligent reasons for feeling the way you do and I must respect that.
To those of you who have loved ones on death row -- my heart goes out to you.

For the two white men who chained a African American man to their truck and drug him to death, and before he died he was decapitated,
The Timothy McVeighs
John Wayne Gacys
Ted Bundys
Saddam Huseins and the
Osama Bin Ladens (when he is captured) of the world now these men have committed heinous crimes against society and the world. I personally feel they are the ones in our society who the death penalty was established for.
Now I understand I cannot play G_d -- nor am I attempting to -- I am just like the rest of you simply expressing my opinion.
Some crimes are so ugly and brutal that I just feel like the individuals respsonsible should not be allowed to live.
Those who rape, torture and/or murder children I feel rightly so deserve the death penalty.
I have never had a loved one murdered and I pray I never do.
But if I ever had a child or family who was murdered I would definitely want this individual responsible for their murder put to death. This is something that I am very passionate about. Matter of fact I would volunteer to pull the switch or give them the injection for free.
Now some of you have said that taking a life in this manner does not being closure. Well for me IF this ever happened it would not be about closure -- for me it would be you took a life that was very near and dear to me and you shall pay for it with your life.
Now I mean no disrespect to anyone nor am I trying to be flip but this is just the way I feel and I do feel very strongly about this. No room for discussion on this. I love who I love and that is just the way it is.
I used to believe in a eye for a eye and tooth for a tooth until it hit home. But the turn the other cheek -- oh I really do not think so. It didn't work in the late 50's and 60's in the civil rights movement. And it really ain't working here and now.

Now I also know and realize that there are wrongly convicted people on death row.
There are also people on death row and are there only because they could not afford an attorney to properly defend them.
Then they are others on death row who do not deserve to be there -- because the puishment definitely does not fit the crime.
There are also poor, indigent, mentally impaired, those with severe disabilities, minorities and others who are on death row who were unjustly sentenced.
And I feel that these individuals do not deserve to die.
Hey I don't have the answer to how best to dole out punishmentfor crimes committed in this country. I do know the current system is corrupt and has not worked for far too long.

I also know personally two men on death row. One does not deserve to be there because his crime does not fit the punishment handed down to him, and the other one, hmmmmm for his crime he really needs the lethal injection in the arm.
I sure to some that may sound hard and cold -- but knowing what he did, I feel for his victim's family -- the pain and suffering that they now must endure.
I have a very close friend who was on death row for 10 years. He served over 20 years in prison before being released. He now is viable member of his community. Since his release he has become employed (matter of fact he works 2 job), has married and is a parent and grandparent. I never knew him before he was released from prison. But he is definitely a changed/different man. I look at him and cannot for the life of me imagine him in any other light.
Yes people can and do change -- I will be the first to admit to that.
I said all of this only to say this is a very difficult subject to comment on. I thought long and hard before I decided to respond to this. Because no matter what is said and how it is said there are those who will hurt even more behind your response.
We are all entitled to feel the way we do for whatever reason(s) there are.
I mean I would not want to live in a society where people all agreed on every thing. Or a society where we were not allowed to speak our minds in an open forum such as PTO.
I am both glad and thankful that PTO has afforded all of us the luxury to openly express our opinions without any reprocussions, serious ones or otherwise.

There will come a day that we all will have to be accountable for our mis-deeds and actions and yes we will all have to answer to a higher power.

Damaris

08-11-2004, 11:35 AM

Hey sistah. What you said really touched me. I enjoyed your opinion about the death penalty. Damaris F.

1sassysistah

08-11-2004, 12:22 PM

Damaris, thank you for taking the time to read my post. What I said came from the heart.

Damaris

08-11-2004, 02:10 PM

De nada sistah! (Your Welcome sistah!) I liked you were able to back up your opinions.

Damaris

08-11-2004, 02:11 PM

ooops! I mean I liked how you were able to back up your opinions.

koldazzice

08-11-2004, 02:27 PM

I lost a childhood friend who was like brother to me, this past December and the pain is very raw, still! While he was involved in a very serious crime, he DID not kill anyone, his co-defendant did and his co-defendant is sitting in protective custody, while he is gone, executed by the state of North Carolina. A lot of innocent people have died that were not guilty. I feel for the victims and their families, all killing is WRONG, but the death penalty is not the answer.

So, NO, I do not believe in the death penalty. None of us is God and we should not have the right to take life in the name of justice.

riley108

08-11-2004, 11:31 PM

I have mixed feelings about the death penalty.There are things that confuse me about it.Like why some states have it and some don't.Then how 7 people can get a death sentence when there was only one person killed.

I also especially don't believe in executing an elderly person like the guy they just killed in Alabama.

Retired-10

08-18-2004, 11:24 PM

Just a heads up, I'm fairly new here, so don't bite my head off...

I've been breezing through some of the threads and this topic has probably come up in the past...but not while I was here! ...so I'm bringing it up now.

Is there anyone here who agrees with capital punishment? If so, under what circumstances? For those of you (which are most of you) who are die-hard againts capital punishment...are there any circumstances where you would agree that a person should be put to death? ie - Ted Bundy, Timothy McVeigh, etc. What if DNA evidence is used which makes it fairly difficult to prove that someone else could have committed the crime?

Discuss! :) But please, be nice! :)

Phil in Paris

08-18-2004, 11:30 PM

I'm completely anti death penalty in ANY case.

Phil

Retired-10

08-19-2004, 12:07 AM

Retired-10

08-19-2004, 12:09 AM

Ack! Where did softheart's post before mine go? Now it makes me look like I'm babbling for no reason because I was responding to his...

Kyla

08-19-2004, 12:22 AM

LoL mlg, nope, your not babbling, I hear what your saying :)

I am with Phil, I dont agree with the death penalty under any circumstance. There is always more victims involved (the victims family, the person being executed loved ones), it just causes to much pain.
Someone I deeply care about is on death row, and has a new sentencing trial, where he "could" be offered 80 years (and no longer on death row). I got an 8 page letter, his stressing, saying, should he hope for a good jury verdict, or just take the offer, and that way die in prison (cause as he stated would be 114 before being up for parol). Its just a sentence that should never be, as far as I am concerned. I believe people can be rehabilitated, that crimes are commited in times of passion, being drug induced. I also believe that there are people that shouldnt be let out of prison, cause there crimes are so notorious, but I DONT believe execution is EVER the answer, no matter what the circumstances are.

softheart

08-19-2004, 12:27 AM

LOL He is a her or at least time I checked I was..........:D

She deleted it, because I decided I wasn't going to hash them same thing over and over again. I had posted earler in this thread.

While you were typing I must have been deleting my post..........:)

softie

You aren't babbling

techietype

08-19-2004, 02:48 AM

I work as a victims advocate and I COMPLETELY disagree that it "does nothing for the victims." Every victims situation is different. If its a stranger crime...vs. the defendant being someone they knew...it may be a different story.

I agree that each case is different, and so is each victim. Over the years I've known murder victim survivors who were very opposed to the death penalty as well as those who favored it. But I remain unconvinced that the death penalty really helps victims.

The death penalty is rarely imposed. Mandatory death sentences were ruled unconstitutional. In order to even seek the death penalty the case has to involve certain special circumstances. Usually, that means that the murder had to be committed in conjunction with another felony such as a rape or robbery, or that the victim was a police officer or a young child. I raise this point, in order to point out that the law does not execute people based on the worth of the victim to their loved ones. In other words, if death is the highest penalty that the law allows, not giving the death sentence may send a subtle message that some victims or worth more than others.

Interestingly enough, of all the death sentences handed out over the past 25 years, only about 12% were handed out for the murder of a black person. Yet, almost half of all murder victims are black.

Even when a murder has the elements necessary to get a death sentence, the decision to seek death lies strictly with the discretion of the prosecution. Death penaly cases are very expensive to prosecute for a variety of reasons, and they are often very high profile. Many prosecutors will not go for a death sentence unless they are fairly certain they will prevail. Again, some victims may see that decision as placing a value on the worth of their loved one.

Most of the cases when death is sought the result is a sentence that is less than death. Even when a victim gets what they want -- a death sentence against their victimizer, the process of the victimizer actually being executed is an emotional rollercoaster ride for the victim that no one should have to take. About half of all death sentences get oveturned upon appeal, sometimes after many years. Even when the sentence is actually carried out it often reopens old wounds.

At least when someone is sentenced to life without parole the sentence begins the day that the sentence is passed. If the death penalty helps victims at all, it helps very few and may even inflict more harm than good. I personally know one woman who did not want the man who murdered her son executed, despite the fact that the DA had decided to seek death. At least in her case, the death penalty certainly only caused the victim more pain. I'm even aware of cases where an execution took place over the objections of the victim's family.

Given all of that, I cannot help but believe that overall victims would be better off if death was never even on the table.

angel-of-peace

08-19-2004, 03:32 AM

bird

08-19-2004, 08:04 PM

I have never believed in the death penalty, not bc I have a brother in prison but bc I do not think we have the right to say when someone should die. If someone kills for any reason they are wrong but we are not to say they should die bc of it.

nasty_boo

08-19-2004, 10:38 PM

Well I would have to say that I am NOT in favor of the death penalty. I don't believe we have the right to decide who lives and dies. The universe will take care of the karma for those people. I can't stand thinking of all the innocent people who have died over the years. "two wrongs don't make a right".

angel-of-peace :love:

i so totally agree with angel ... how can the goverment try to show people that killing is wrong and all they do is sentense people (sometimes even innocent) to death penalty! i believe that a life in prison is a better punishment than death penalty! after death there comes the "good life" and doesnt the gov try to punish those killers??? so why end a murders life (hurt his loved ones) and relief him from the punishment??? well i guess in my eyes death penalty is a big NO NO and like she said "TWO WRONGS DONT MAKE A RIGHT" :thumbsup:

Kobe16

08-20-2004, 12:42 AM

In NO WAY do i agree with the death penalty. God brought us into this world, and HE IS THE ONLY ONE TO TAKE US OUT!

Damaris

08-24-2004, 11:53 AM

That's right Kobe!!!!!

cheyenne_SF

08-24-2004, 11:14 PM

I do not believe in the Death Penalty...
and it is frightening that one could believe that it is just ....

rywill

08-25-2004, 04:10 PM

First, I must say I am completely against the death penalty. I have a hard time understanding it's relevance and purpose. In my mind I can not logically accept it. And spiritaully and emotionally either. I find it really odd that in most states the facilities that house these death row inmates is the Department of Rehabilitation and Corrections. It seems then by the sheer nature of the name that the purpose or mission is to rehabiltate (to restore to good conditiona) and correct(to make right). You can not change what is complete or finished; in that death ends life. There is no end to the mission or purpose. It can never fulfill itself.

There are so many things wrong with capital punishment and I am sure that opposition to my logic would say there is something wrong with me. But in states that have the death penalty they have done a poor job of persuading the public at large that it is a detourant; while sometimes we are led to believe that it is.

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." - Ghandi

IceBlueSparkle

08-30-2004, 03:00 PM

This is a tough question. And being from Canada it is not an issue I really gave much thought to, until recently. I have a friend on death row at San Quentin. My life has suddenly been plopped right into this debate. I look at all the information out there and it seems to me that clearly the death penalty is not a solution. In the US alone, states with the death penalty do not have less crime. It seems that the death penalty does not act as a deterrent. And then I try to see things from the victim's family's point of view. Death must be a sort of consolation prize or a means of feeling a minute sense of justice *bad wording but I think you know what I mean*. I try to imagine someone killing my sister and imagine what I would feel. I think it's impossible to grasp unless the situation were real. My hearts go out to anyone who has lost a loved one. But in effect isn't that what is being done when an inmate is sentenced to death. The feelings of loss is being perpetuated to more people...

The problem for me lies in the justice system itself. There is no clear definition to who gets a death sentence...and I strongly believe that we are all products of our surroundings and life experiences. People react to situations based on their life experience...sometimes people commit crimes because they see it as their only choice...their life experience dictates it that way. I am not trying to make excuses for criminal behaviour...it is wrong !! I am trying to approach the issue from a neutral ground and with understanding for all sides.

Most surprising to me was when I discussed this with my friend on death row. He is not against the death penalty. He thinks it is often the best solution. He accepts the consequences of his actions. That's not to say he's burdened with guilt, he's just accepted what he's done.

I feel helpless and want nothing more than to be able to abolish the death penalty. And have him live out the rest of his years...behind bars mind you...but that way we can continue to share our lives with each other. My own selfishness I guess... The way things stand now we have maybe 3 years left in our journey.

So I guess the bottom line is I don't agree with the death penalty.

MsChiku

09-02-2004, 11:58 AM

POLL: Do you believe in the Death Penalty?

I decided to add a Pole for the question Big B posed in a prior thread. I couldn't add the pole to his so I am starting another thread with the pole inside.

DO NOT POST YOUR COMMENTS IN THIS THREAD.. Please use Big B's thread to post actual comments. Use this thread to vote.

I am totally against the Death Penalty. :twocents: :twocents:

meowmachine

09-02-2004, 07:38 PM

I am totally against the death penalty. I agree with Amnesty International that capital punishment is the ultimate human rights violation.

Not everyone who is sentenced to death is actually guilty of the crime. That's why the former governor of Illinois ordered a moratorium on executions. So many death row inmates were proven to have been convicted on faulty evidence that he had to do something. It was journalism students in a investigative reporting class in Northwestern University who discovered that there were a lot of innocent people on death row.

Also, it has been discovered that not all attorneys for people being tried for capital crimes are all that qualified for the job. Some of them have come into court drunk and have slept through the proceedings.

Personally, I think that the death penalty is just plain old barbaric.

alice

minniecas

09-03-2004, 10:47 AM

I do not believe in the death penalty....minnie:cool:

harleychic

09-09-2004, 11:14 PM

For as long as I can remember I have always been "FOR" the death penalty. About ten years ago, a man that I was in love with and carrying his child was arrested for capital murder. I was a teenager and decided that it would be best to have an abortion. Throughout the years I have kept in touch with my ex. He is now sitting on Death Row in Huntsville, Texas. He is one of the best friends that I have ever had and I will always have a place in my heart for him. I am now married with a child and yet I have never set him aside. I still write to him to let him know that he is not forgotten. Still...I believe that he needs to pay for the decision that he made. He is sorry and I believe him when he says it. He has found our good Lord and I think that is great but....if it was someone in my family that he had killed, I would want him dead just as much as the victims family does. After many letters from him he has made it perfectly clear that he feels the same way. He said that he knows he will die for what he did and he has no complaints on the issue. He is more than willing to pay for his crime. There are many prisoners on Death Row who are for the death penalty also. So why are we fighting it....they're not!

*Johnny's Angel*

09-16-2004, 12:43 PM

i dont believe in it. I think its totally sick how you can kill somebody by innjecting them or whatever it may be, and then they have people there that watch that!! i think thats sick!

Eldon's wife

09-25-2004, 04:31 AM

Do I believe in the death penalty? At the first of the year you would have heard me, like most others in Texas, sayin' string the murderer up. But, then I found the man who has became a dear friend and confident on Arizona death row and began to research the subject. There are masses of material fom colleges and universities and even our government that advocates the system that makes it clear the system is not only unjust but, inhumane.At least 118 men have been proven innocent and released since the reinstatement of the death penalty. Anyone who understands the process will have no problem believing me when I say it is a certainty, as many or more were known innocent and executed anyway. At present hundreds of innocent men sit on rows all across this nation with little or no hope of gaining thier freedom. But, I have had many say directly to me that if an innocent man dies it is simply the cost of getting the guilty. Afterall, we can not chance the worst of the worst being freed. This might be a more valid arguement if it were not so blatantly obvious that the worst most often do not end up sentenced to death and if the poor alone did not face capital punishment. Still this nor any other of the arguements of death advocates would have comforted the families of all the men recently released up north had they been executed.That number was 18, I first read, now 20 or more I believe. Terry Max Cook, who lost almost two decades of his life to the row in Texas before DNA proved without a doubt he had been railroaded by detectives and prosecutors uses a quote that says "The only color on death row is the color of poor." He also impressed on me the fact that it does not take the masses to change things, a single voice that persistently cries out in the darkness can flood light into hell. I PRAY at this moment I can be that voice to anyone who believes they do or ever will support the death penalty. The man I write is not opposed to a sentence of death,and he accepts with an unbelievable dignity that this belief being shared by a majority has created his almost hopeless predicament. But as I have done with him I encourage you to examine the information that is available. Visit the advocacy cites, the proof that killing these men is a benefit to society does not exist.President Bush once stated, that as governer of my home state he spent only a matter of minutes reviewinga case before he approved an execution.In his zealous to kill, he sent at least one man to his death who's family still holds enough evidence to convince a rational mind of thier loved ones innocense.As for reduction of crime in this state, it is not happening.It is not happening across the nation.It is a myth, as is the implication we save tax dollars. But as I say, please do not believe me if you doubt, the proof is only one search away.If anyone can find the proof to leave thier conscious clear, as our current leader believes he can,I respect your belief but,as for me endless hours, days and weeks on-line only served tostrenghthen my belef the system must be changed.

Jherek99

09-25-2004, 05:55 AM

I am opposed to the death penalty.

Alan
If you would be perfect give up all you have.

MiaBellaAngela

09-25-2004, 07:09 AM

God is the only true judge and jury. "though shalt not kill"....killing by man's law is still killing. It is very wrong.

MiaBellaAngela

09-25-2004, 07:12 AM

lilmescan

09-27-2004, 10:14 AM

NO, I DON'T BELIEVE IN IT BECAUSE IT'S BIASED TO RACE AND WEALTH!!!

I believe it is biased, especially in my county's conviction. Bexar county (texas) currently has 38 people on death row, out of those 38 only 5 of them are white. Four out of the five were convicted of killing a police officer or having more than one victim (jury had no choice). Is this because there were only 5 white males that committed haneous crimes? I think not. Most of them are given a chance to plea or are not considered to be that much of a danger to be given the death penalty. (Example: Richard Mcfarland -wealthy white male is eligible for parole in 20 years because he was given the chance to a plea).

Pam

09-28-2004, 05:39 AM

I have to say that his man has to be among a minority. I have spoken with many death row inmates in Alabama and even the ones that admit guilt dont WANT to die. They have accepted the fact that they are going to. DJ has been there for 21 years and he says that he would rather die than have to sit in population for the rest of his life as a life without parole inmate, but given the choice of staying alive in prison, being killed by the state or going home, he would choose going home any day. That is why we are still FIGHTING. Not to mention the people that are wrongfully accused. As long as we have a death penalty, there is going to be innocent people killed. Is that fair? That is why we are fighting.

Yes, it is biased in some places. The judicial system is not fair. There is a man with a past record here in Alabama from the same county as DJ and he shot and killed a young man who was 21 years old. Then he cut the mans head off with a chain saw and threw his head in the river and his body somewhere else. HE was given a 25 year sentence. My son was convicted after pleading guilty to third degree burglary and got a 5 year sentence. The man who raped my daughter also plead guilty and was given a 5 year sentence for 2nd degree rape. Does this seem fair. I think that 3rd degree burglary should not carry near as much time as rape in any degree, but that is the judicial system for you and there was nothing I could do to stop it. This system is badly broken and in need of reconstructing all over the USA. That is why we are still fighting.

NO, I DON'T BELIEVE IN IT BECAUSE IT'S BIASED TO RACE AND WEALTH!!!

I believe it is biased, especially in my county's conviction. Bexar county (texas) currently has 38 people on death row, out of those 38 only 5 of them are white. Four out of the five were convicted of killing a police officer or having more than one victim (jury had no choice). Is this because there were only 5 white males that committed haneous crimes? I think not. Most of them are given a chance to plea or are not considered to be that much of a danger to be given the death penalty. (Example: Richard Mcfarland -wealthy white male is eligible for parole in 20 years because he was given the chance to a plea).

Pam

09-28-2004, 06:11 AM

Has everyone here who is against the death penalty signed the petition for a moratorium on the death penalty? If not PLEASE DO SO IMMEDIATELY. You can find the address for the moratorium petition under petitions on this site. Thank you.

bikerbaby45

09-28-2004, 06:02 PM

I do not believe in the death penalty. I feel that living a life sentence inside prison walls for the rest of your life is penalty enough. Vengeance is mine saith the Lord, I will repay! I feel it is legalized murder, there are to many people in the prison system that are wrongly convicted, especially the poor or minorities. My first husband was sentenced to life back in 1965 in California. He was only 18 years old, he lived his whole life in prison and died in prison without no family or anything knowing about it. My son was only 5 months old when that happened. We never got over the emotional trauma of it all. Back then they did not have any support groups for the loved ones that were left without their fathers or husbands. He was diagnosed with scitzophrinia, but I never could accept that he did what they said he did. I feel they badgered him into confessing to it, because they could not find any suspects for two weeks after the murder. And my husband was the only one out of all the people they interviewed that did not have an aliby for the time period. I really never got over it. I was only 18 at the time and very immature. He was arrested the day after our first wedding anniversary on March 8, 1965. I am 58 years old now, but it still hurts to think about it. Thanks for listening PTO family. Carol :(

sfrazier

09-28-2004, 07:35 PM

I am for the death penalty I have been raped by people that I trusted growing up and I hear stories about people being raped tortured killed chopped up and stuffed into suitcases and it makes me sick. The person gets caught says I'm sorry and maybe sheds a tear and we feel sorry for them. I dont get it why should tax payers have to pay to house these people that commit these horrible crimes?? I dont not believe that the death penalty should be an option unless there is undeniable evidence or a confession but seriously why should they get to live. They played god with someone elses life and for that I could never forgive. Even the youngest child that does something bad will cry and say sorry they'll never do it again when they get caught, do we honestly think that a grown adult who is not mentally well wont do the same? I do believe that alot of people on death row find god and make peace with what they have done, but isnt it really that they made peace with the fact that they deserve to die and someone is allowing them to live. But then they complain about the way they are treated when they are being treated way more decent than they treated their victims. I dont not believe that anyone on earth is innocent we are all guilty of something but in your own mind could you ever even imagine committing a crime like some of these people do and honestly not believe that you deserve to die?? If I ever even though I became capable of doing anything so horrible I would kill myself and save any unfortunate person that I decided to take it out on the pain. I would rid the earth of myself so noone else would have to. I am a strong christian woman and these are my beliefs. People say let god deal with what these people do well I agree give them the dp and send them in front of him to be dealt with, cuz earth is just the holding facility until we go before him and are judged and our fate is truely decided.

mm4ever

09-29-2004, 01:57 PM

If you would have asked me this question 20 yrs ago I would have said "completely against". But over the years I have heard of and seen things, that back then, I wouldn't have thought could ever happen. So to be honest, I am neither for or against. At this point in my life, I don't think that being either/or on this issue is realistic. In our history there has been some truly horrific, unspeakable crimes committed that the criminal(s) even know that their death(s) is the only justice, but then again there are those cases where the crime can be justified with life or a lesser sentence and the death penalty is still imposed. Like so many other issues you have to keep an open mind, that is what brings about advancement, reform, equality, and justice.
mm4ever :thumbsup:

tradewiz

09-29-2004, 05:53 PM

I have mixed feelings about it I was just wandering ?
If the person is truely guilty then yes they should die for their crimes. :thumbsup:

steviesgirl

12-10-2004, 02:20 AM

I Don't Believe In The Death Pen,unless It Has To Do With Just Straight Up Wack Jobs'that Go On A Killing Spree Or Anything To Do With A Child,who Are We To Decide If Someone Else's Life Should End,thats Up To God Not Us

samiam158

12-10-2004, 05:46 AM

"UNLESS"?????

and who decides what a "straight up wack job" is or at what age a child is not a child????

2nice

12-10-2004, 06:30 AM

I dont believe in the death penalty one little bit. I cant see how it shows society that murder is wrong. I guess that i have the over all view that most Europeans have.

whiskeylullabye

12-14-2004, 09:56 AM

I believe that it is appropriate in certain extreme circumstances, such as ted bundy.

Justice4Alexa

12-14-2004, 10:03 AM

I absolutely do not believe in the Death Penalty!!! It is not as if it brings the victim back or erases the pain for the victims family. Not to mention the innocent people who have walked away, how many innocent people were put to death? It is just a horrid act of our government, for those who are for it in certain circumstances dont you think that living a life in prison is much more difficult then being put to death? They would have to live with what they did for the rest of their lives. The four walls in their cells would be a constant reminder of just that. And I think it works out well for everyone without the death penalty the innocent have time to fight their cases and the guilty have nightmares for the rest of their life about the decision that brought them to prison. Just my two cents for whatever it is worth. Love ya Angie

titantoo

12-15-2004, 07:30 PM

In my opinion there are no circumstances that warrant the death penalty.
It is brutal, inhumane and uncivilised. Life is sacred period and no justice system, state or country that calls itself civilised has the right to terminate a life! Not allowing the death penalty is a prerequiste for being a member of the European Community...there are no exceptions. So this include

Austria
Belgium
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Ireland
Italy
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Portugal
Spain
Sweden
UK
Think of the list of countries/states that do have executions and then ask yourself how civilised we are!

Andria

12-15-2004, 07:42 PM

I don't believe in the Death Penalty either. Like a couple of you mentioned, it isn't going to bring back the victim, or lessen the pain of the loved ones. Murder is so wrong that feel that we have to take these people off of the streets and what do we do? kill them? Two wrongs don't make a right, and if this person needs to be taken into custody because they are so horrible how are they getting the message if we just give them a shot to go to sleep or whatever? Then the only ones suffering are the people he has already hurt. Doesn't seem fair. I think that life in prison would do so much more, at least they would have to live each day thinking about what they did to get them where they are.

missie1977

12-16-2004, 03:10 PM

My heart tells me the death penalty is wrong, but I try to put myself in the other position, what if someone tortured and murdered one of my little boys?I dont at that point know how sympathetic I would be to their cause.Its a tough issue :(

cptmills1

12-28-2004, 03:29 PM

I have to think if someone killed my son, I would vote for the death penalty. I believe child rapist and murders should recieve the death penality. Sorry if I am offendening anyone, I don't mean to. But think if your child was hurt what would you want? I would want to make sure this never happens again and not want this guy/girl to live life laughing, reading, etc in prison. Just me I guess.

MiaBellaAngela

12-28-2004, 05:59 PM

Only God has the right and the judgement to take a life.

coolchik4sure

12-28-2004, 06:55 PM

I am against the death penalty.

And I am so tired of "religious" being viewed as "weak"!

BIG DIFFERENCE!

Retired-18

12-28-2004, 07:00 PM

I dont believe in the death penalty one little bit. I cant see how it shows society that murder is wrong.
Do as I say not as I do? I am against the death penalty, it solves nothing and only leaves more victims.

Honeymooner

12-28-2004, 08:49 PM

Several years ago I was babysitting my 2 nieces, who were about 4 and 2 yrs old. The 4yr old hit her sister, so I gave her a smack on the hand as punishment (not hard--she didn't even cry). She asked why I hit her, and I told her it was because she hit her sister. She thought for a second, then asked if it was wrong for her to hit her sister, then why was it ok for me to hit her? Smart girl. And I guess it's how I feel about the death penalty. Killing is killing. And the excuse that it will deter others is a joke.

Getsome

12-28-2004, 10:24 PM

Absolutely I believe in it. We have people living in this world that are so far out from "normal" that are a danger to themselves and to other. I'm sure that if you asked your husbands/boyfriend if they know anyone in prison who is a true animal and has little or no regard for human life I bet they could tell you several names. Some are just born cracked whether it be a chemical imbalance, abuse, mental condition, or just plain mean. Why does this earth need a sexual sadist or serial killer? We don't is the short answer. Call it thinning the herd, cleaning out the gene pool, whatever you want but there are people that serve no purpose other then to hurt other people and they need to be removed.

vim1946

12-29-2004, 09:41 AM

I am not God so I do not have the right to judge or to take or give life. I have given birth but that is not the same. And as for if someone had killed one of my sons -- I would want them to have life without parole. People who kill children suffer a lot in prison -- even other prisoners don't like child murderers. I would want them to suffer for the rest of their lives. That probably isn't a very Christian attitude, but it's the one I have. I would probably at some point forgive them, because I am a Christian, but I would not want them to die.

Coral

12-29-2004, 10:40 AM

............I know there are those inside that have done horrible things, but I believe only the good Lord has the right to decide ones fate.............

THE NIKE

12-30-2004, 01:09 PM

i think if and only if thay have DNA .that puts the person

vim1946

12-30-2004, 01:32 PM

DNA is ony going to matter if it involves some sort of crime that left some sort of body fluids/skin/hair -- what if it was a murder with a gun or knife -- and no DNA -- I don't believe in the death penalty at all but those of you who say only with DNA -- what would you say then?

THE NIKE

12-30-2004, 02:18 PM

yes i agree with you on that point . if there was .DNA. and then only to those that was real bad crimes ,ie child killers serial killers ..

blueangel

12-30-2004, 06:30 PM

I DO BELIEVE IN THE DEATH PENALTY PLUS ALSO TOO AT TIMES THERE IS NO JUSTICE IN THIS WORLD OF TODAY,AS IF YOU TRY TO DEFEND YOURSELF YOU WILL GO TO PRISON FOR IT.AS THERE IS A GUY IN PRISON WITH MY FIANCEE AND THE GUY TRIED TO STAB MY FIANCEE AND WHEN HE TRIED TO PROTECT HISELF MY FIANCEE ENDED UP IN THE HOLE FOR TWO YEARS AND ONE GUY ENDED UP GETTING TRANSFERRED TO ANOTHER PRISON AND THE OTHER GUY DIDN'T GET NO CHARGES AT ALL.AS THE GUARDS WILL COVER FOR HATRED AGAINST OTHER INMATES AS IT HAPPENS EVERY DAY IN THE PRISON SYSTEM.:eek:

SunnieGyrl

12-30-2004, 09:26 PM

We don't rob robbers. We don't burglarize burglars. We don't steal from theives. We don't rape the rapists. What gives us the right to play God and kill the murderers? Our taxes won't be less if we abolish the death penalty. Someone once said that "revenge is sweet." Revenge may be sweet, but is it civilized? We consider ourselves here in the good ol' US of A to be fair people. Yet, we practice a most uncivilized tradition of executing those who kill. Remove killers from society? Yes, absolutely!! Life in prison without parole. We hate Hitler because his men used lethal gas to murder millions of innocents. We say it's inhumane. Yet, we used the same gas (cyanide gas--Zyklon B) to murder people in the gas chambers until recently.
Maybe we don't need to examine the crimes that people commit--maybe we need to examine the punishments that we dole out and maybe we need to realize that death isn't the answer. Most of these people just don't care whether they live or die. They've got a grudge, and if they avenge it, then they've served their purpose. They don't care if they die. Maybe we should concentrate less on revenge and more on rehabilitation. Everyone can change.
One of my closest friends is David Berkowitz, Son of Sam, who is serving several life sentences at Sullivan in New York. He has atoned his sins, and he believes God has forgiven him. He knows that he'll never be free, yet he devotes his life to helping others. I believe they can be rehabilitated. If given the chance.
**He was sentenced when there was no death penalty in New York.

Mrs. OB

01-10-2005, 01:55 PM

I used to have also so called "mixed thoughts" - before I started writing with a man who is currently on deathrow, and also starting to read and find out information about DR. Before I thought, that those people deserve what they get.I had so black&white world then... But our friendship with "R" has teach a lot to me.
I know there are men with horrible crimes, but they all pay really high price of their crimes sitting there on DR.
It is hard to think that my friend is there locked up for a small cell except showers.. He cant go to work there, or cant have any hobbygrafts. Only thing he has is librarybooks, book in two weeks.. and of course his letters. When I started to fight with my beliefs, I realize, that there can be also innocent men on row, and have heard how many innocent people have been set free from DR as innocent men. How much there are same kind of cases. I think DR is very barbaric. USA - huge civilized country - lmao. I think it is a big joke. There isnt any justice.
I am fighting with my friend for make him save his life someday. He is innocent, but if he would be guilty - now I know, I would do the same thing - fight, because I really dont believe for Death Penalty.

Starchild

01-10-2005, 02:16 PM

I never gave the death penalty much thought before I got involved with writing prisoners and prison reform a few years ago. I am totally against it personally. I try to look at it from a wider perspective, in that avenging a death by using the death penalty only breeds more fear, saddness and suffering; it doesn't actually solve anything or bring the other person back. I feel that if we as a society could just stop blaming, stop judging and see the problems such an outlook creates for us all, then maybe we could change the way humans interact with eachother. Aside from this aspect there is the other very real issue of the amount of mistakes made when it comes to executions and the amount of innocent men who are there right now.... I just believe there is another way forward in all of this and that it takes for us all to want to have a different outlook on eachother and the world we live in and are creating for future generations.

dudley2005

01-10-2005, 02:22 PM

I have mixed thoughts..........some crimes like ted bundy who was a predator killing 10 women?,john gacy who killed 30+,men who snatch kids then kill them..........i think society is better off.But to me death is easier than life with out parole personally cus its hell knowing these walls are your life and thats it.no hope.But the money it costs vs a life sentence is a good one against it.Plus the system is stacked against the average joe that too many mistakes are made for poor people.

mrsalvarez02

01-11-2005, 10:09 AM

I am so totally against the death penalty - perhaps if some one was caught in the very act, then-maybe. But there are so many people that are wrongfully accused, and to kill someone when there is the slightest chance of their being innocent is awful. I was so proud of Gov. Ryan in Illinois, when he commuted all those death sentences. The system is flawed, and he had the guts to stand up and say so. I wish they would abolish it all together- get rid of the Rockefeller drug laws, just re-vamp the whole system. In a perfect world, right???

BigDaddysBaby

01-18-2005, 12:31 PM

I have mixed feelings. In instances where someone did terrible things to another human including murder and it didn't stop there but was a little murduring spree and the instance is there is no question about it that the person charged is guilty then I am for it. Other than that, I'm against it because too many people have been put to death when they could have really been innocent.

magoo

01-18-2005, 12:54 PM

i am from canada so we do not have that problem here as we don't have the death penalty. however, i don't believe that anywhere should have the death penalty. mistakes are made all the time and people are wrongfully convicted. how many innocent people have already been executed.
we do not have the right to decide if a person lives ar dies. i agree that there are some people who probaly deserve to die but i think that is the easy way out and i know that i do not have the right to decide.
i strongly beleive that having the death penalty promotes hate. it certanly doesn't help stop people from killing. if it did then the US would have lower homicide statistics, when in reality they have some of the highest in the world.

Vegasvamp

02-05-2005, 07:20 PM

death penalty has nothing to do with justice, it´s just a simple act of annihilation for vengeance reasons. they execute people for murder? what else but committing another murder is execution? DP is just vendetta in the name of the law, it´s barbaric and inhuman.

Zapatista

02-05-2005, 07:33 PM

I am totally against the death penalty. But there is something else of interest to those of us with loved ones in prison. In death penalty states the sentences are longer because they are able to threaten people with the death penalty and get them to take life without parole when in anotehr state they probablly would have gotten 20 years of life with the possibility of parole. Something to think about. The death penalty effects us all.

sclcookie

02-07-2005, 02:54 AM

I don't believe in the death penalty.

I used to be for it when I was young, however, I didn't know any better.

Our justice system is not perfect. Too many flaws and too many innocent behind bars.

How many innocent people have been executed? I bet many of those innocent people are forgotten and noone is taking the time to prove there innocense...what's the point; they're already dead!

Plus, people change, e.g. that 18 year old murderer may now be a 40 year old changed man about to be executed. There not executing the same person who murdered.

What about that DR inmates family?

The death penalty is revenge plain and simple.

Marc's Mom

02-07-2005, 02:45 PM

in certain circumstances
when guilt is absolute..undeniable

when the crime is committed it is against a child especially when it's one of your own
and or if
when after you have committed the crime and you show no remorse like it didn't matter at all and would not be able to not do it again like a lack of emotion or responsibility

yes I agree there are times when guilt isn't absolute and circumstances can cause reactions which seem to be the only way out
in those cases I think life with no parole or years like 30 years no parole depending on the crime and circumstances but still ....
my answer is a loud YES........... some criminals DESERVE the death penalty and personally I think lethal injection is too humane I like the GAS and ELECTROCUTION

just think of a little 6 month old baby being raped sodomized and beaten until her bones break ..by her Mommy and Daddy.....they don't deserve to die ?

yeah right ....let's keep all the sickos alive... and then put them in the prisons with our loved ones....

PatitoDeHule

02-07-2005, 03:14 PM

No. I witnessed a public hanging in Eritrea in 1962. It was quick, but it is etched in my memory forever. Since then I have not been able to be in favor of death penalty.

I don't believe that it is right for any person to deliberately kill another for any reason.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

It is not a deterrent; just revenge.

It is not a treatment for mental illness or for retardation; just a way to get an undesireable person out of our way.

Our criminal "justice" system is too far from perfect to make this kind of decision.

Starchild

02-07-2005, 03:19 PM

I agree with you entirely Patito. As long as we continue to avenge a death with a death, nothing will change....hatred and revenge will just continue to be perpetrated. Revenge of this kind will never work and never create positive change...there is another way forward and it is far away from the death penalty.

debbiehhh

02-08-2005, 09:40 AM

no i dont beleave it in. I beleave murder is murder wheather its the state or a person its still wrong. there has been to many people killed to find out later they didnt do it.

fitchick

02-08-2005, 10:06 AM

I do not believe in the death penalty,not for anyone

momhurting

02-08-2005, 10:17 AM

As for me I'm a little confused about the whole thing. If a person kill's someone, are we to act like that person? I guess I mean why kill someone that is doing the same wrong that person did Right? If the Laws were like the Old Testament their would be a lot of killings. I think if they admitted to killing, they should just stay in prison, not Killed. That is my opinion only, My heart aches for the families of the Victim's and the Convicted. So I guess I couldn't handle it to see someone I Love being put to death. In the end God is the one that will Judge not us Human's. Just my thought's. I hope I did not offend or hurt anyones feeling's. But as for me I Love all People. I have learned the hard way to have empathy for the convicted, due to my only Son in prison. My heart aches to hug and hold my child, but I cant and if someone is put to death, they can never see their Loved ones again or hug them.

Hugs,

jeffsprincess

02-19-2005, 12:11 AM

I absolutely oppose the death penalty, and here are some reasons why.

William Randolph Hearst once said, "Cruelty and viciousness are not abolished by cruelty and viciousness - not even legalized cruelty and viciousness. We cannot cure murder by murder."

Facts:

Statistics show that the murder rate is not dropping in those states that pursue Capital Punishment. Ironically, the murder rate has actually risen in these states, contradicting our governments reasoning for pursuing Capital Punishment in the first place.

A New York Times survey demonstrated that homicide rate in states with capital punishment have been 48% to 101% higher than those without the death penalty.

Recent studies in Oklahoma and California failed to find that capital punishment had a deterrent effect on violent crime and, in fact, found a significant increase in stranger killings and homicide rates after the death penalty had been reinstated.

The murder rate in Canada has dropped by 40% since the death penalty was abolished in that country in 1976.

A Texas study determined in 1999 that there was no relation between the number of executions and murder rates in general.

The five countries with the highest homicide rates that do not impose the death penalty average 21.6 murders per 100,000 people. The five countries with the highest homicide rate that do impose the death penalty average 41.6 murders for every 100,000 people.

Costs:

Various state governments estimate that a single death penalty case, from the point of arrest to execution, ranges from $1 million to $3 million per case.

Other studies have estimated the cost to be as high as $7 million.

Cases resulting in life imprisonment average around $500,000 each, including incarceration cost.

FLORIDA: Taxpayers in Florida are spending an average of $2.3 million on each execution- over six times what it would cost for life without parole.

NEW YORK: In 1995, the Empire State brought back the death penalty even though the department of corrections estimated that it would cost over $2 million per case and approximately $118 million annually. That same year, state leaders complained that there was a budget shortfall and made dramatic cuts in funding for public higher education and health care.

NEW JERSEY: In 1991 New Jersey spent $16 million to impose the death penalty. The next year the state laid off 500 police officers because they could not afford to pay them.

CALIFORNIA: Counties in the sunshine state pay dearly for the right to kill. “If we didn’t have to pay $500,000 a pop for Sacramento murders, I’d have an investigator and the sheriff would have a couple of extra deputies and we could do some lasting good,” says Sierra County DA James Reichle.

Juvenille Offenders on Death Row:

Since 1976, 226 death sentences have been imposed upon juvenile offenders. Only 3 states account for half of those death sentences-Texas, Florida and Alabama.

Since 1976, 22 juvenile offenders have been executed. The executions were carried out in seven states: Texas, Virginia, Georgia, Louisiana, Missouri, Oklahoma, and South Carolina. Texas alone carried out 13 executions-almost two-thirds of the total.

There are approximately 73 juvenile offenders currently on death row.

The juvenile offenders currently on death row can be found in 12 of the 21 states that permit juvenile executions: Texas, Alabama, Mississippi, Arizona, Louisiana, Florida, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Nevada and Virginia.

Texas accounts for 28 juvenile offenders on death row (more than one-third of the total), all of whom are located in only 16 of the state's 254 counties. In Harris County, Texas, where 10 of the 28 juvenile offenders are located, 3 out of every 4 residents oppose the execution of juvenile offenders according to a poll recently conducted by the Houston Chronicle.

The Race issue:

Although African Americans make up 12% of the population, they account for 42% of current death row inmates.

In North Carolina, the odds of receiving a death sentence are 3.5 times higher among defendants whose victims were white.

The odds of receiving a death sentence in Philadelphia are 38% higher in cases in which the defendant is black.

People of color comprise 43% of total executions since 1976, while comprising only around 25% of the population.

Since 1977, blacks and whites have been the victims of murders in almost equal numbers, yet 80% of the people executed in that period were convicted of murders involving white victims.

More than 6 out of every 10 persons sentenced to death for childhood offenses since 1976 have been either African American or Latino.
Almost 2 out of 3 juvenile offenders currently on death row are persons of color.

Of the 22 juvenile offenders executed since 1976, almost 2 out of 3 were either African American or Latino.

Innocent executed:

More than 114 people have been exonerated from death row since 1972, including 23 from the state of Florida alone.

The system of capital punishment is flawed at both the state and federal level. On the federal level, 3.5% of persons whom the Attorney General has attempted to execute have been innocent.

A study identified 23 instances in the last century in which a person with an extraordinarily strong case of innocence had been executed by the government.

Recent Cases of Mistaken Executions:

Texas executed Gary Graham on July 22, 2000 despite claims that he was innocent. Graham was 17 when he was charged with the 1981 robbery and shooting of Bobby Lambert outside a Houston supermarket. He was convicted primarily on the testimony of one witness, Bernadine Skillern, who said she saw the killer's face for a few seconds through her car windshield, from a distance of 30 -40 feet away. Two other witnesses, both who worked at the grocery store and said they got a good look at the assailant, said Graham was not the killer but were never interviewed by Graham's court appointed attorney, Ronald Mock, and were not called to testify at trial. Three of the jurors who voted to convict Graham signed affidavits saying they would have voted differently had all of the evidence been available.

Florida convicted Leo Jones on March 28,1998 - Jones was convicted of murdering a police officer in Jacksonville, Florida. Jones signed a confession after several hours of police interrogation, but he later claimed the confession was coerced. In the mid-1980s, the policeman who arrested Jones and the detective who took his confession were forced out of uniform for ethical violations. The policeman was later identified by a fellow officer as an "enforcer" who had used torture. Many witnesses came forward pointing to another suspect in the case.

Texas convicted David Spence on April 3, 1997. Spence was charged with murdering three teenagers in 1982. He was allegedly hired by a convenience store owner to kill another girl, and killed these victims by mistake. The convenience store owner, Muneer Deeb, was originally convicted and sentenced to death, but then was acquitted at a re-trial. The police lieutenant who supervised the investigation of Spence, Marvin Horton, later concluded: "I do not think David Spence committed this crime." Ramon Salinas, the homicide detective who actually conducted the investigation, said: "My opinion is that David Spence was innocent. Nothing from the investigation ever led us to any evidence that he was involved." No physical evidence connected Spence to the crime. The case against Spence was pursued by a zealous narcotics cop who relied on testimony of prison inmates who were granted favors in return for testimony.

Virginia executed Joseph O'Dell on July 23, 1997 despite the existence of DNA evidence that could have proved O'Dell's innocence. The courts refused to consider this new evidence because Virginia law says that any evidence found after 21 days is inadmissible in proving the innocence of a convicted person.

Texas executed Jesse Jacobs on January 4, 1995 despite the prosecution’s admission that arguments they made at Jacobs’ trial were false. Jacobs was convicted after the state introduced evidence that he, rather than his co-defendant, pulled the trigger on the day of the murder. At the subsequent trial of the co-defendant, the state reversed its story and said it was the co-defendant, not Jacobs, who pulled the trigger. The prosecution vouched for the credibility of Jacobs' testimony that he did not commit the shooting and did not even know that his co-defendant had a gun. Jacobs’ co-defendant was also convicted, though he was not sentenced to death.

Texas executed Robert Nelson Drew on August 2, 1994 after refusing to give him a new hearing after another man signed an affidavit in which he confessed to the murder, thereby exonerating Drew.

Texas executed Leonel Herrera in 1993 despite compelling evidence of his innocence. A former Texas judge submitted an affidavit stating that another man had confessed to the crime for which Herrera was facing execution. Numerous other pieces of new evidence also threw doubt on his conviction. According to the Supreme Court, however, that proof was not sufficient to stop his execution because of the late stage of his appeal.

Virginia executed Roger Keith Coleman in 1992. Coleman's appellate attorneys misread the statute governing the time frame for submitting an appeal and filed their brief one day too late. The Virginia state courts held that the one-day-late filing was the equivalent of no filing at all and refused to review his issues. The federal courts subsequently held that Coleman could not raise a federal claim because he had waived his state review. Finally, the Supreme Court determined that Coleman could not complain that it was his attorneys who erred because he was not entitled to an attorney in the first place. No court ever fully reviewed the evidence of his innocence prior to his execution.

If that is not enough, what about the FACT that executions are performed illegally! Why? For the simple fact that doctors play a major role in executions. Doctors that are involved in executions use their knowledge of medicine to kill, not heal. Medical personnel were also involved in the invention of the electrical chair and the gas chamber, but they did not design the method. It is not only unethical, but it is also illegal. A medical license does not permit one to use medicine to kill. It is ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!

The American Medical Association now prohibits psychiatrists from administering drugs to inmates on death row calling it "ethically unacceptable".

Source: NCADP.

Rusty265

02-27-2005, 11:53 AM

I agree. Could not have said it better myself.

I do believe in the death penalty. I also believe in justice and I am willing to fight for those I believe are not guilty and on death row. But, for anyone that is obviously guilty, I believe they should be executed for their crimes if their crimes are heinous enough to warrant a sentence of death.

Rock

Phil in Paris

02-27-2005, 11:58 AM

Great interesting post Jeffsprincess, thanks for sharing.

Phil

jeffsprincess

02-27-2005, 01:16 PM

Thank you Phil. This is a very important topic and so many people have been "misinformed."

For those who would like to get involved, please visit the National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty@ http://www.ncadp.org/

If anyone is interested in learning more about capital punishment or if you would like to see some "graphic photographs" of a bothced execution you can click on this link.
http://www.prisoncorruption.com/wst_page8.html (http://www.prisoncorruption.com/wst_page8.html)

jeffsprincess

03-03-2005, 06:23 PM

There are quite a few threads already in this forum questioning if you are for the death penalty or against the death penalty. I am attempting to not be repetitive, so this question is only for those who do believe in the death penalty.

I am just curious, and I will not debate back, (Ok I will not promise, but I will try) as to why you believe in Capital Punishment. I have read the previous threads and most of you who responded as being for the death penalty, gave the reasoning that it depends on the situation.

Ok, now let me stop procrastinating and get to my questions:

Again, this is not a debate; it is for those who believe. Although I might rebuttal a little, I am not attempting to start an argument.

Now to my questions:

Why do you believe?

How do you differentiate who should be executed and who should serve a life sentence without the possibility of parole?

Do you believe that the Death Penalty is a deterrent?

Do you agree with the Supreme Court ruling that barred the Death Penalty for Juvenile Killers?

Do you believe that the execution of the alleged condemned gives closure to the victim’s family?

Slainte

03-03-2005, 07:39 PM

Excellent questions... okay, here are my views. I've shared some of them before here, and have had some healthy, respectful debates with a couple of members.

Why do you believe?
Because with all my heart and soul I do believe that the truly guilty of the most heinous of crimes should pay with their lives. I realize that must sound incredibly cold. As much as I believe in the good in people, I believe that there are truly evil people out there. I think 99.9 percent of humans know the difference between right and wrong - regardless of mental illnesses, being abused as a child, etc. - and if one is capable of committing a most heinous, cold, calculated murder, then they should pay with their life, too. But, you will never find me outside a prison during someone's execution cheering it on. If I had my druthers, I would prefer to live in world that this was not even a topic.

How do you differentiate who should be executed and who should serve a life sentence without the possibility of parole?
The Commonwealth of Massachusetts recently put a task force together to see if it is feasible to bring the death penalty back on the books here. Our governor, Mitt Romney, wants it back, and in recent years it's only lost by as few as one vote through the state legislature. (A state rep changed his mind at the last minute after saying he would vote for it; he was voted out of office in the next election.)

Basically, the idea of "beyond a reasonable doubt" would be thrown out. It would have to be "absolutely no doubt." DNA evidence is a must. Only a handful of crimes would qualify.

The 29-page report proposes a short list of the "worst of the worst" offenses that could result in the death penalty, including killing of a law enforcement officer, terrorism, murders involving torture and witness killing in an attempt to obstruct justice. The report recommends using science, especially DNA evidence, to corroborate guilt. DNA evidence has often been used to exonerate death row inmates in other states. The committee, which includes supporters and opponents of capital punishment, did not recommend whether the system should be adopted.

"The governor wanted us to examine whether science, which has been so helpful in exonerating so many people, could be used in a positive way to make the system work better at the front end," said Joseph Hoffman, law professor at Indiana University and co-chairman of the commission.

The report calls for the creation of an independent committee to review all scientific evidence in a case.

The report also proposes giving defendants in capital cases better lawyers and the opportunity to face two juries, one for the trial, and if convicted, one for sentencing. It suggests doing away with the legal standard of guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt" in a death penalty case, and replacing it with a finding of "no doubt." (from http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2004/05/03/commission_comes_up_with_death_penalty_recommendat ions_1083595520?pg=full)

They are trying to determine if the death penalty can be perfected, fool-proof. If it can be, then it'll have my full support. And if ever got put on the ballot, I will guarantee you that I will vote in favor for it.

However, since there are so many people on death row who have been found innocent, I do believe that a nationwide moratorium should be enacted. I don't want to see an innocent person killed. The DNA technology is there. Use it. And if there's any doubt, or no DNA available, then change the sentences to LWOP.

Do you believe that the Death Penalty is a deterrent?
No, I believe it is a punishment.

Do you agree with the Supreme Court ruling that barred the Death Penalty for Juvenile Killers?
Mixed feelings on this. If a 17-year-old commits a heinous murder why shouldn't he/she get the same punishment that an 18-year-old would get. Teen-agers know the difference between right and wrong. What age do I think it should be? I really don't know. I don't think an age can be set, I think it depends on the crime.

Do you believe that the execution of the alleged condemned gives closure to the victim’s family?
Difficult to answer as I have not been in those shoes, but I would venture to guess that it brings closure to some, not all.

And some additional comments:

I doubt my stance on this topic will ever change; however, since joining PTO, I have had my eyes opened a bit. I never knew how deplorable the conditions on death row are. I may believe in death as a punishment, but I also believe in maintaining one's dignity. No matter what one's crime is they should still be granted the basics we've come to expect in life: heat when it's cold, food that's edible, the ability to feel the sun on their face, etc. If the inmate is respectful to the authority around him then he/she should receive that in return. They have received their punishment and they should not endure additional punishment at the hands of abusive guards.

Okay... let me have it... :)

jeffsprincess

03-03-2005, 07:57 PM

titantoo

03-03-2005, 08:19 PM

Slainte

I will never agree that judicial murder is ok for many reasons but I respect completely the intelligence and thoughtfulness of your point of view.

[as you can see I ignored jeffprincess's heading, apologies jeffprincess...but I am a born soapbox preacher at heart!]

Slainte

03-03-2005, 08:49 PM

Thank you Slainte, I respect your opinion and your views, and you delivered the post with grace.

You answered my questions, and I am not looking to rebuttal, just yet:eek: , because I respect others opinions. As some might not understand why I am against the death penatly, I do not understand why some are for it.

This is a way for me to attemp to understand.
Thank you. :)

I think I may understand why those like yourself who are against the death penalty feel that way more so than anyone understanding why I, or anyone else, would be for it. I can completely see where anti-DP'ers are coming from and you all have very valid, and difficult to debate, points.

I admire that you are willing to make the attempt to understand. Like you, I respect everyone's opinions, and although we may never agree, I will always hear you.

I will never agree that judicial murder is ok for many reasons but I respect completely the intelligence and thoughtfulness of your point of view.

[as you can see I ignored jeffprincess's heading, apologies jeffprincess...but I am a born soapbox preacher at heart!]
lol - ahhh... you and I have discussed this topic before... I knew you'd be by! :)

Thanks to you, too. I always believe that even if people don't agree, we can always learn from each other.

With utmost respect,
Slainte

swtmel

03-03-2005, 10:29 PM

I want to take a few moments and share some of my personal beliefs on this topic. I agree basically with what Slainte said.

Why do you believe?
The death penalty is something that is controversial. Part of me says 'no it is not right to murder someone' while the other part is saying 'they did the crime, so now it is time to pay'. I only believe in the death penalty for a handful of heinous crimes. Like Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, William Gacy, Aileen Wuornos, these type of characters. Each of these individuals commited the worst of the worst. I, personally, would rather see them dead then in prison for life. Firstly, I think we as a society should examine these characters in as much depth as possible. We need to figure out exactly why these people committed the crimes, so we can possibly see more warning signs in young adults. I also am a strong believer in the use of DNA evidence. If someone is to be put to death you better show me some DNA. Without it I do not even think we need to discuss death.

How do you differentiate who should be executed and who should serve a life sentence without the possibility of parole?
Well, as we do it today it would go by the state or the federal government. I think there should be more than one death resulting from the crime in question. I do not think that a person should be executed for killing a single individual. Not every person deserves execution in my eyes. If a person does indeed show remorse for their actions, I think we can discuss different punishments.

Do you believe that the Death Penalty is a deterrent?
HECK NO!!! It is a proven fact, done through studies, that the death penalty is not a deterrent!

Do you agree with the Supreme Court ruling that barred the Death Penalty for Juvenile Killers?
The jury is still out on this one in my eyes. Slainte made a good point with the fact that a 17 year old knows right from wrong. I mean I have been through some pretty horrendous things in my life and that did not effect my knowing right from wrong. I know in a few cases it does, and those are the cases that need to go the the psychiatrists for opinions.

Do you believe that the execution of the alleged condemned gives closure to the victim’s family?
Good question! I have talked to several different families throughout my education in the criminal justice field. They have been split down the middle in how it helped. Some said that yes it did give closure. But then I have heard of one mother saying that seeing another mother lose her child only made it worse. So I am still out on this one....

I want to thank Jeff's Princess for this amazing thread! I think that we as adults can have a great discussion of our different beliefs. :)

Thank you all!
Melissa

jeffsprincess

03-03-2005, 10:43 PM

Thank you swtmel, I respect your beliefs.

samiam158

03-04-2005, 06:54 AM

What I want to know is WHO decides what is "heinous"? This will still leave it up to the public to decide. What one person decides is "heinous" may not be what another feels.

suzeg3

03-04-2005, 08:55 AM

also, what exactly does it accomplish?

jeffsprincess

03-04-2005, 10:37 AM

Since I already have a thread for those who believe in the pursuit of Capital Punishment, I only thought it was fair to start one for those who are against the pursuit of Capital Punishment.

I as most of you know, am against the death penalty. And for those who know me, you also know that I am not religious so my beliefs have nothing to do with god. In this post I am going to explain to you why, from my point of view, opinion, and fact.

The biggest misconception I believe most Americans have is that they believe the death penalty is a deterrent. Now this is not based on my opinion, this is based on fact. Most, if not all states that pursue Capital Punishment, murder rates have escalated, not declined.

I also do not believe that two wrongs make a right. I have children, and I believe in teaching them not to hit, so in order to instill in their minds that hitting is wrong, I do not hit them. Some parents see a child hit someone and then the parent hits the child, all while telling the child that hitting is wrong. To me it does not make sense. To me, you are contradicting what you are trying to teach them.

I am also going to be 100% honest here. I was not always against the death penalty. As a child I was raised in a world where prison didn’t exist. Well, of course it existed, but not in my upper class white neighborhood where I was raised. People were not arrested, sometimes, but only for white collar crimes, and this was very rare. I believed that people incarcerated were the lowest of the low and basically the scum of the earth. In my eyes, I was better than all of them. I did not live in a world where we struggled; I did not live in the real world. My life was very sheltered. My biggest problems I faced as a teenager was “Bloomingdales, or Nordstrom’s.” If someone broke the law, I would say lock them up and throw away the key.

Then I met Jeff when I was 14. He moved to my sheltered rich white neighborhood to reside with his Grandmother who was, and still is probably one of the wealthiest women in Long Island. He was troubled, had a very difficult life and went through things that no child should ever go through. By the time he moved in with his grandmother, it was too late to “save him.” He was the bad boy, but he has an incredible heart. He was a good person, still is. Jeff is a good person who did not make such good choices.

A few years later, Jeff was arrested and charged with first degree murder, and in New York a charge of first degree murder carries the threat of the death penalty. Eventually the charge was dropped to 2nd degree murder.

I will never forget the first time I went to go see him in prison. I viewed everyone else as losers. I thought I was a million times better than everyone. I felt as though I didn’t belong there. I remember the guard telling me I had to step into a room to remove my bra in order to clear the metal detectors and then I would be able to re-enter the room and put it back on. I looked into this mans eyes and said “Are you kidding me? Are you not aware of whom my father is?” Well, needless to say, he was not impressed and did not care who my father was. I had to remove my bra like the rest of the women who were visiting. I was not special, nor was I different.

While visiting, I began to observe the people who surrounded me. And to my surprise, I did not see “low life losers”; I saw families, families that did not ask to be sitting in a prison visiting room. Mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers, wives, children, that had no say in what there love one did. I remember seeing a little boy towards the end of the visit, screaming “daddy, daddy, come home with me daddy.” I can still hear him like it was just yesterday. I can still see the mother trying to exit the visiting room with her little boy crying for his father, and I can still see the father’s tears falling down his cheek. I left that visiting room in tears that day.

Why did I just tell you all that? Because of my experiences, my mind opened up and I began to see the other side of prison, the side that most people do not realize exists. I became obsessed in a way about prison and I wanted to learn everything there was possible to learn about it. I started researching all different issues regarding prison, reading books, and eventually this led to me starting a web-site and becoming a prison rights activist. This is also what led me to oppose Capital Punishment.

A few years ago, I had a visit with Jeff and we were discussing Capital Punishment and his fears of when he was charged with first degree murder and could have received the death penalty. I looked at this man, who still to this day is just a lost little boy, and I could not imagine him on death row. The thought made me sick to my stomach. Now if I could not imagine him on death row, why could I imagine others on death row? I began to realize that I couldn’t, and after conducting my research on Capital Punishment, and reading the articles of the men that were exonerated post execution made me sick.

I began to realize, what does this accomplish? I read story after story of victims families and how most did not receive and closure after the accused was executed. Then I began to think of the condemned’s family. As I sat in my room one night, and my little boy was sleeping, I looked at him and thought “What if my son kills someone and receives the death penalty?” At that moment, I found myself fully opposing Capital Punishment. I thought of the families, the mothers, and fathers, the children etc. I know that I am doing a good job raising my children, teaching them right from wrong, but are there any guarantees that they will grow to be productive members of society? No. In life there are no guarantees. Being a mother, I could not imagine my little boy on death row. Not only would I have to deal with the fact that he committed murder, he killed someone in cold blood, I would also have to deal with the fact that the little boy who used to look at me and smile when I kissed his boo boo’s away, has now had taken someone’s life and now the state was going to take his? These families did not ask for this, just as the families of the victims did not ask for this. The families of the victim and the families of the condemned are truly the ones who suffer. The truth is, nothing can bring their loved one back.

I also have to disagree with Slainte from my previous thread. I do believe that some people do not know the difference between right and wrong. As a parent, it is our job to teach our children the difference between right and wrong. It is our job to raise these children into adults. Some people did not have parents to teach them these very important values. I believe and will continue to believe that a child cannot raise himself into an adult. I also believe that these men and women who commit these heinous crimes have deep rooted psychological issues. I believe that there are many who are not able to think rationally due to a severe chemical imbalance. I do not believe that people are born cold blooded killers. Most of us are able to function as productive members of society. We are able to differentiate right from wrong. Some are not, and I truly believe that there is a reason why and this reason is severe mental illness. In my eyes, individuals like this, should not be executed. In my opinion, they should receive a tremendous amount of psychotherapy. I do not believe that sane individuals would commit these crimes.

I look at the picture of Richard Cartwright (Uncensored from Death Row) with his beautiful little girl and I think to myself, why should this child suffer? What did this little innocent little girl do wrong? She did not ask to be brought into this world, and regardless of what her father allegedly did, he is still her father and she loves him. It truly breaks my heart.

So I have come to the conclusion that Capital Punishment accomplishes absolutely nothing. To me, it is society’s revenge. Who am I to say this one should be put to death and this one shouldn’t? What makes one murder differ from the other? The victim is dead. This person intended on killing their victim. Because the acts might be carried out in different ways, should that be the deciding factor for those who committed the crime should be put to death or not?

I am 100% against the pursuit of Capital Punishment. Lethal Injection, if you want to get technical, is illegal. Why? Due to the fact that doctors are deeply involved in performing executions. Doctors are not only involved; they have now designed the method. Doctors that are involved in executions use their knowledge of medicine to kill, not heal. Medical personnel were also involved in the invention of the electrical chair and the gas chamber. It is not only unethical, but it is also illegal. A medical license does not permit one to use medicine to kill.

William Randolph Hearst once said, “Cruelty and viciousness are not abolished by cruelty and viciousness – not even legalized cruelty and viciousness. We cannot cure murder by murder.” I agree with him 100%

For those of you who took the time to read this, I thank you.

Retired-26

03-04-2005, 10:51 AM

[/QUOTE] I began to realize, what does this accomplish? I read story after story of victims families and how most did not receive and closure after the accused was executed. Then I began to think of the condemned’s family. As I sat in my room one night, and my little boy was sleeping, I looked at him and thought “What if my son kills someone and receives the death penalty?” At that moment, I found myself fully opposing Capital Punishment. I thought of the families, the mothers, and fathers, the children etc. I know that I am doing a good job raising my children, teaching them right from wrong, but are there any guarantees that they will grow to be productive members of society? No. In life there are no guarantees. Being a mother, I could not imagine my little boy on death row. Not only would I have to deal with the fact that he committed murder, he killed someone in cold blood. I would also have to deal with how little boy who used to look at me and smiled when I kissed his boo boo’s away now had taken someone’s life and now the state was going to take his? These families did not ask for this, just as the families of the victims did not ask for this. The families of the victim and the families of the condemned are truly the ones who suffer. The truth is, nothing can bring their loved one back.[/QUOTE]

joy, i agree with absolutly everything you said, however, what i put in quotes is the MAIN reason why i am 100% against it. you left me nothing else to add. i TRULY appriciate you posting this. very well said and in fact i am emailing this to 2 of my friends. again, thank you

lovenomore

03-04-2005, 10:52 AM

Powerful speech you have there!
I do not support the death penalty...
But... I am well I aware I would be a hypocrite if someone was to take my sons life from me... So I try to stay out of this discussion...
I just wanted to say it was a great story you told there.

MoMo

03-04-2005, 11:04 AM

Very well said! THanks for sharing this

softheart

03-04-2005, 11:05 AM

Please lets remember this thread is for people who believe in Capital Punishment and their opinions. It isn't out here for debate, only for the thoughts of ones who do believe in it.
So lets keep the thread on topic, even though I know it is hard.

Thank You.. :)
softie

PhillyGurLL

03-04-2005, 11:11 AM

After talking to different people and seeing all the different points of views, I don't know if I believe in it or not! I never looked at it in some of these ways.

Slainte

03-04-2005, 11:29 AM

Strictly my opinions here...

What I want to know is WHO decides what is "heinous"? This will still leave it up to the public to decide. What one person decides is "heinous" may not be what another feels.

I think that at some point it can be determined through opinions that certain types of crimes can be classified as heinous. To give you my opinion, to shoot a person dead during a robbery is not a heinous act, and does not deserve the death penalty. But to kidnap a 10-year-old child, have a 250+ lb. man sit on the boy's chest and stuff a gasoline-soaked rag into his mouth - suffocating him to death over the course of 20 minutes, to take his dead body and sodomize it, to take his naked body and put it in a cement-filled Rubbermaid container, put lime on the child's face to speed up the decomposition, seal the container with duct tape and drive to another state to dump the container into a river is in my opinion a most heinous act. And I did not make this up, this is actually the case that brought the death penalty back to the forefront in Massachusetts. In my opinion, these men deserved the death penalty. They have no remorse and what they did was cold and calculating and deliberate. (A sidenote, the father of this boy lead the fight to bring the death penalty back, but has since changed his mind and is no longer for the death penalty.)

also, what exactly does it accomplish?

It serves as a punishment for crimes committed. It removes the guilty who commits the worst of the worst crimes from society as a whole. Going back to one of my original statements, that I feel that people on death row show respect to those around them, then they should recieve respect in return, I believe there is a small percentage of people on the row who are incapable of this and continue to be a threat to society even while behind bars. The lives of other inmates and correctional workers are put at risk, I think, at a much higher level than usual. Some people can be rehabilitated, others simply cannot. I do not think it is right to put many lives at risk for one.

I think in some cases, in reference to what swtmel posted, that it does bring closure to some victim's families.

Slainte

03-04-2005, 11:31 AM

Thank you, Softie... I started composing my responses before you posted your reminder and just saw it now.

jeffsprincess

03-04-2005, 11:52 AM

I have started a thread for those who oppose the death penalty. This way, we can now keep both of the threads on topic.

softheart

03-04-2005, 11:58 AM

Here is a link to that thread, for the ones who don not believe in the Death Penalty.

Thanks
softie

http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110155

love&misshim

03-04-2005, 12:50 PM

First, ditto to everything Jeffsprincess said. Very well said, girl.

I think that proof exists as to why we shouldn't have the death penalty. Look at how arbitrarily it's implemented. Most are executed for killing a white victim. I think the percentage is somewhere in the 80s. True, there are comparable numbers of whites and minorities on the row, but that is NOT in proportion to the population. If it's so fair, then why don't the percentages of people on death row reflect the percentages of those ethnicities in society?

Also, the majority of those ending up on death row are the ones who can't afford proper legal defense. It's not that they're "guiltier" than the wealthier members of society. It's that they can't pay the dough needed to adequately fight for their lives.

Also, prosecutors lie. It's been proven. Innocent men are incriminated because of it. Too many times these lawyers see an opportunity to further their career because of a conviction and a death sentence. They place their careers above another person's life.

Those that are guilty were mostly young and poor, struggling to make ends meet. If you look at the descriptions of their crimes, you'll see that most were just robberies gone wrong. They didn't plan to murder anyone. Something went wrong while robbing a convenience store, a home, etc., and somebody ended up dying. It's terrible that this happened, but does it necessarily make the killers the worst of the worst?

I don't trust the system that determines whether it should be applied. If there has to be this much controversy over it, then I think it should be a sign that we shouldn't have it. If we have to argue continuously over whether ending a person's life is acceptable or not, then I think that's our answer right there. We have other options now. We should implement them.

Lol, sorry, but I'm VERY opinionated on this.

Kyla

03-04-2005, 02:35 PM

Jeffsprincess
that is very well put, and thought out. I am totally against the death penalty, I could write a book. I really feel for the families with loved ones on death row, I know, people have asked me, what if it was "my child" but at the end of the day, if it was my child, rather through being a victim of circumstance, or a victim of the state, I would still love them, and do anything to protect them, as a mother. The parents I have spoken to with sons on death row have been heartbroken beyond belief. There worlds are turned around enough, first off, because of the crime that their child commited, second because the child they gave birth to and loved is fixing to die. Two wrong will never make a right (as you pointed out). The victims families that are so much hurting for there loved ones, to me, are punishing the person on death rows families, and they never commited a crime. Dont get me wrong, I believe in punishment, but not capital punishment. A life sentence would be a better option than death.

Another reason, I believe the death penalty causes so much hatred. Hatred doesnt heal a heart, it makes it revengeful. Only forgiveness can heal. Watching someone die, to me, is the ultimate sacrifice to ones being, and if someone can watch that, and smile, and feel at peace, then the emotions in there hearts have changed them as a person forever, and killing is wrong period, what makes there emotions any different? I ask myself that alot, but to me, I just cant come up with the "closure" answer.

There to me also, is no boundaries with the law. Yes, as someone mentioned, how to you determine heinous, cruel of the crime. Alot of people are in prison for murder, and alot of people are on death row for murder. They say that the death penalty is for the "exeptional", the worst of the worst. A majority of these men on death row, arent the worst of the worse (so to speak), there are people serving life prison sentences for worse crimes. If you follow stories on death row, yes, these men made an awful mistake in their lives, yes, (though there has been innocent as well), they have gone out and murdered someone, but do they deserve to die? Well I starting writing someone on death row, and I found something that I never expected to find at all, and that is love. A compassionate man, with a huge heart, full of remorse and sadness for the crimes he commited. If he could take that away, he would. I know also, from the women on PTO that have loved ones on death row that have touched their hearts, the stories thats show, these men are human beings with feelings, not sitting on death row thinking if they get out, what crime they would commit next. (to get the death penalty, they have to prove future dangerousness issues). I jury has to decide, if they got life in prison, would they be a future danger to society (if they ever got out), or in general population. So if a jury decided that, they get the death penalty. Rehabilitation is more the answer to me than killing someone.
Anyway, I could just keep typing and typing on this topic, but one thing that I will never change my mind about is, THE DEATH PENALTY IS WRONG

gigi v

03-04-2005, 02:49 PM

I Do Not Believe In The Death Penalty. A Life For A Life, Is Murder. However I Am A Religous Person The Bible States (thou Shalt Not Kill) That Means Everyone Even The Department Of Justice.

Retired-18

03-04-2005, 03:05 PM

If my child were to be murdered today would I feel better for watching her killer die? I think not. I would gain no closure from that. I could not bear to watch another family suffer such a loss and call it justice.

The death penalty is not a deterrent if it were we would not have so many on the row. It is vengence and murder sanctioned by the government.

If my child were to be murdered today I would want the person who did it to be punished and what better punishment than sitting in a prison for the rest of one's life contemplating that the reason you are there is because you took another human life? Death does not punish.

GENO329T

03-04-2005, 04:45 PM

Jeffsprincess And Kyla Hit The Nail On The Head.everything Was Very Well Put I Agree 100%.and My Prayer Every Night Is That The Death Penalty Be Abolished.i Tell My Husband Everynight When We Talk Or Write That Joy Comes In The Morning.weeping Only Last For A Night.and He And I Agree Together That Things Are Gonna Be Turned Around.for All These Families And Guys On The Row.loving Geno For Life,

Anneliese

03-06-2005, 05:25 AM

All I can do is to echo everything that has been said in this thread. I am 100% against the Death Penalty. It achieves nothing but more sadness, despair and heartache. How can murder by the state be right? I agree with the point about doctors being a party to murder through the administration of lethal injection. If they can be prosecuted for murder for practising any form of euthanasia when that involves assisting someone to die who is in great pain, or has no quality of life, then how can their role in ending a healthy person's life ever be justified? It would be interesting to see that tested in the US Supreme Court!

Clearly a heinous crime should not go unpunished -as people have said on this thread - but to take a 'life for a life' in the 21st century is surely an unacceptable barbarism, which is why so many countries have long outlawed it.

I pray that Rich Cartwright's voice will be heard and heeded by those who have the power to change laws - along with Jeff's Princess, Kyla and all the eloquent, informed voices whose words I am privileged to read on this website

Kyla

03-06-2005, 05:38 AM

Quote Anneliese
. If they can be prosecuted for murder for practising any form of euthanasia when that involves assisting someone to die who is in great pain, or has no quality of life, then how can their role in ending a healthy person's life ever be justified? It would be interesting to see that tested in the US Supreme Court!

What an excellent point, they have tried to fight the leathal injection and the drugs administered, but not this. That would be one UNREAL APPEAL :D I would love to see a attorney take this one on to the supreme court. :)

titantoo

03-06-2005, 08:04 AM

I agree with jeffsprincess 100%.
I would just like to add a few personal thoughts.
Since as long as I can remember I have been against judicial murder.
I know it was since I was quiet small since as a Jew I used to fantasize about "What if I had had the chance to kill Hitler?" I knew that in my mind I would have done it. In other words, as an individual, murder was possible. But at the same time I did not thing it was right for the State to murder Hitler. I thought it was wrong when Israel murdered Eichmann. I think some of my thoughts on this came from the following: I knew there would always be some people that hated other people. There will always be those who hate Jews or homosexuals or Communists or Gipsies. What made Nazi Germany different, for example, was the State doing it. To me the issue re judicial murder is pure and simple a moral one. It is wrong, wrong, wrong for the state to kill anyone for any reason. Simple as that (for me at least).

On the other issues as to peoples own responsibility for their actions. I understand that but I think we should also understand our responsibility as a society for peoples actions. Do you think that abusive childhood, poor neighbourhoods, inadequate schooling, broken families and no health care has no effect on how we become adults? Maybe the single largest contributor to why our fellow Americans are incarcerated in prisons is because of the failure of our society in caring for those least priviledged...and one of the major components to that is our penal/"judicial"
system itself. Look at B**H....he had a number of major problems in his past, if he had grown up in the projects in NYC but had been exactly the same person he would have been more likely to spend 8 years in prison than to spend 8 years as president!

I still hope that one day soon the death penalty will not exist in the USA.

tekela

03-08-2005, 06:34 AM

I agree with Jeff'sPrincess 100%. I activley work to stop the death penalty. I sign every petition possible. However, I sometimes feel like a hypocrite because I have another belief that really bothers me sometimes.

I personally believe that LWOP. Is also the same as the death penalty.

I worked in a adult male institution and then later having been incarcerated. I believe that LWOP is just a extremely long stay on death row.

That's where it bother's me that sometimes, I wonder if I am a hypocrite , When I see a person is a volunteer. I actually do not know how to feel.

I do not think after reading men' stories from the row and understanding what they endure on a daily basis how I could ever begrudge or activley oppose a volunteer.

I wonder if my dream of the death penalty being ended in the United Staes and around the world is sometimes unfair to the inmates. I do not mean those who are innocent that will continue to fight, but those who committed the crime who are not seeking appeals.

One of my major problems with the death penalty in the first place is that the number of years a man spends on the row awaiting appeals sometimes exceeds the amount of time other people are sentenced to, for taking a life.

I worked on a Capitol Murder case in Ohio in 2002 as an investigator for a defense attorney. The attorney secured a plea bargain deal for a 19 year old of 17 to life. The crime was the cold blooded killing of an 18 year old male and his 14 year old girlfriend. The male was murdered to prevent him from giving eye witness testimony to another murder case, his girlfriend was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. The accused had to give a full video tapped confession and testify against his accompolice. After first having agreed to take the deal, then after giving a video taped confession. He and his mother decided for him not to take the deal. Now he sits on Ohio's deathrow. His appeal process will keep him there longer than his plea deal, unless he volunteers. He did commit the crimes, LWOP is the best he could get, if let off of the row.

I pray that if we get the death penalty stopped that we can overhaul the prison system which is in need of reform. I want to see us return to rehabilitation not just punishment. I need to see LWOP leave or I will always feel like I was one of the people who campaigned to extend the death penalty since they will all still die inside.

love&misshim

03-08-2005, 11:37 AM

Tekela, I agree with you. I am 110% against the death penalty, and I also oppose life without parole. However, the reforms I think are needed in the prison system just go on and on and on. I am against life without parole, but I think that other things in they system need to be changed so that when inmates do come up for parole, they have been rehabilitated to the point where they can function in society. If they can't, then parole should be denied. But I do acknowledge that a LOT of changes would need to be made before life without parole could be outlawed. And I really hope we get there someday.

TNC

03-08-2005, 12:07 PM

I grew up believing in the death penalty. When I was young one of my good friends mom was killed and the man who killer her was placed on death row. To this day he is still there. Growing up I was always frustrated with the fact that he was still there. I couldnt understand why they hadnt carried out the execution already.

After joining PTO I had a change of heart. I realized that 1) There are innocent people on death row. I realized that as crooked as the system really is there is no sure way to know if the right man is being punished. I decided that killing the wrong man just isnt worth it....2) Killing these men is not going to help the family nor will it undo the wrong that has been done....3) Killing these men is only letting them off the hook for the crime if they indeed really did do it

I used to think that if someone killed one of my children or loved one then I would wish death on them. I felt that way not becuase it would make me feel better, but out of vengance. I now have realized its wrong to kill out of vengance. I think that if someone killed my child the best punishment is natural life in a 6X9 cell. If they live the rest of their life in that cell they will always be reminded as why they are there. If they are given death then they are no longer in pain, but yet as the loved one I would be in pain for the rest of my life.

I cant go out and kill myself because I am suffering so why should they be spared the suffering

babygirl350

03-08-2005, 12:16 PM

A very well written article. I am also totally against the death penalty for anyone, for any reason. I am supportive of LWOP however. I feel to be incarcerated and have to live each day with the knowledge of your crime, you are taking responsibility for it.

An anti death penalty group I belong to however, does not support LWOP, as they say that is a death sentence in itself, to never have a chance of getting released.

I feel though if people are not given a choice, then our justice system will have failed for the "victims". I have alot of empathy for victims. Their families have rights also and they should be considered when sentencing.

These of course are just my opinions and my beliefs.

Thanks for sharing such a great article with us.

jeffsprincess

03-09-2005, 07:25 AM

I do have to agree with babygirl350. I am also a supporter of life without the possibility of parole. In certain instances, I do believe that LWOP is extremely necessary. I would love to see better mental health programs for these individuals, but I do believe that they have to serve their time for the crime they committed.

MiaBellaAngela

03-09-2005, 07:38 AM

Jeff'sPrincess, Good post!

I want to comment on this: "I also have to disagree with Slainte from my previous thread. I do believe that some people do not know the difference between right and wrong."

Yes it is true some people do not know right from wrong. Also I want to add that what is wrong for one may be right for another. I have found that people in general tend to impose their values onto others. What we need to do is understand others. I recently lost a "friend" because she told me the 17 yr old father of my Godson should "know it is wrong to have a child so young." I explained to her that in his neighborhood and culture it is not unusual and that we can't impose our values on him. The same is true of some crime. Does the child who kills their father for molesting them deserve the DP? I don't think so but of course the DP raises moral, value and ethical issues.

My belief is that no one has the right to take a life but God. Who are we (society) to kill people? That makes me sick actually. I also agree with your statement about how two wrongs do not make a right.

Vengence is mine saith the Lord. We need to stop playing God!
Ciao.

MiaBellaAngela

03-09-2005, 07:41 AM

TNC

03-09-2005, 09:23 AM

The only reason I am not in favor of LWOP across the board, is that if someone truly changes while they are inside and becomes a better person and realizes their wrongs and has remorse, why should they have to live there forever? Just MHO.
I also agree that no matter how violent the crime it doesnt mean the person doesnt become a better person. I think there are a lot of factors involved and age of crime or drug use at the time of crime is big.

I agree that there are many who deserve even LWOP and will never change, but there are a lot who are very sorry for the mistake they made.

kmlchitown

03-09-2005, 11:50 AM

All statements are very powerfull and i thankyou all for sharing your feeling ,

PatitoDeHule

03-09-2005, 01:03 PM

I think the New Hampshire Constitution covers the case pretty well:
For the same reason a multitude of sanguinary laws is both impolitic and unjust. The true design of all punishments being to reform, not to exterminate mankind.

MiamiChica22

03-12-2005, 04:04 PM

I support the death penalty in really egregious cases, like that Nichols guy in Atlanta who murdered four people in two days, already on trial for rape. I don't view the death penalty as a deterrent, it is a punishment, most definitely. However, I think decades of appeals are fine. I'd rather not have an innocent person put to death.

protecttheyoung

04-01-2005, 12:23 AM

I do not believe that anyone deserves to die. Especially because the judicial system is corrupt and we have to many people going to jail that are innocent. If you could let them elect if they wanted to die then that would be okay.

stormierainn

04-01-2005, 12:40 PM

Although some people commit truly evil crimes, I do not believe in the death sentence, for no one

i don't belive in it, also i belive in lwop :thumbsup:

seansgram

04-01-2005, 04:03 PM

I want to firsr say, I am being totally honest in this matter. I don't agree with the death penalty for many reasons, and I will not bother with that because it has been stated throughtout this thread. But I can also say that in all honesty, if it was my loved oned that was killed by someone, I am not sure I would have the decency, compassion, forgiveness or any of the many reasons ,that I don't agree with the death penaly. I can't see taking a life at all, but, the question is? What if it was your loved one that was killed? I am caught in the middle of this. I would hope that I would have the compassion for the other persons family, so they wouldn't have to go thru what I would be going thru. Honestly, in this situation, I can't be sure.
But no, I don't believe in the death penaly. I don't wish to offend anyone but when it came to my family being killed, I can not honestly say how I would feel. This is just my feelings on this matter. My heart and prayers go out to anyone that has family or friends on deathrow

Deecaly

04-01-2005, 04:42 PM

I posted this response on another thread but then realized that it was a poll thread, sorry about that~

I am a supporter of the death penalty. Being in the minority here, especially since I have a DR PP. Even stranger, the person who helped me to make my decision to write to someone on DR was my brother who is a high ranking officer in a prison (a different facility in a complete different state then my PP). He told me the prisoners are still human beings, somebodys brother, sister, child, etc. and deserve to be treated as a human while they await their punishment.

Nonetheless, I do believe that just punishment for someone who in cold blood murders another person is their own life. They did that act knowing that the consequences could be their life. The family of theirs that is left to lose their loved one is again a consequence of the murderers actions. All that is happening to them and their family is a direct result of the path they chose. To me it is no different then somebody who smokes and the result is losing their life to lung cancer. It's not fair to everyone who loves them but that is the possible consequence of somebodys actions. And that person chose to take that risk giving the end result

I am not naive enough to believe that ALL prisoners on death row have been convicted fairly. I have watched my brother on tv walk out a dr inmate whose conviction was overturned. (unfortunately I have also heard of that released inmates return to jail, for another action which was his own fault)

I truely believe that all the efforts that are being put into abolishing the death penalty would be better served if put into the efforts of trying to change the system so that each person receives a fair trial so that they are not wrongly convicted and when convicted receive the fair punishment for it. Through the writings with my pp who without a doubt is guilty of his crime and accepts his punishment for it, has led me to believe that 99% of the people on DR belong there. But still I feel that is not a good enough percentage for people who will lose their life when the system is wrong. It needs to be 100% accurate.

I found PT and have lurked around here for a long time, never posting because I just didn't feel like the rest of you since my beliefs in the DP. But thought I would take the jump on this subject and hope that you all can respect my opinions on the subject. I do sometimes feel I need the support of PT because I do have a DR PP and many people (outside of my brother) just think I'm crazy for that.

topdawg

04-02-2005, 04:56 AM

jenger

04-04-2005, 12:56 PM

When I was younger I was all for the DP, even wrote a speech on it. I've grown up and experienced life since then. When I was 20 my bf shot and killed a person. He's not on death row but he is in a super max prison which i think sometimes is even worse. He's been there for a long time and I don't see him getting out anytime soon since IL can't keep it full and doesn't like to let them go anyway. He has to live with what he's done for the rest of his life. I'm not saying that what he did is right but if there's no forgiveness in this world what do we have. I believe only God can judge. Who am I to say who dies? So, NO I do not believe in the death penalty. No one knows what causes someone to do what they do. What demons they had to deal with all their lives. Killing though is not the answer.

BrnEyesCry

04-04-2005, 06:48 PM

I am a stong believer in the death penalty. HOWEVER, I feel it is too lienient. Bearing in mind that my ideals would only work in cut-and-dry cases (Gacy, Bundy, Dalmer) and certainly not in all cases, but I believe that we should execute the way the guilty killed. I do NOT believe in the "last meal of your choice" I do NOT agree that the condemed should have a chance to say good-bye to their family and I do NOT feel that the guilty should have knowledge of their execution date. After all, their victims did not have these same privileges. An eye for an eye!! However, I am not naive enough to think there are not innocent people on death row. Again, my ideals would only work on cut-and-dry cases. Don't agree with me? Most likely that's because you never had a loved one brutally raped and savegly murdered. If that is the case, consider yourself lucky.
You have it so wrong, but I don't blame you I was there once myself. First, let me state that the knowledge of when you are going to died is not a priviledge. Counting down the last days of your life minute by minute. There's no priviledge in that knowledge. Your right they do get to say good-bye to their families and have a last meal. Second, we have placed them in a bathroom size room with to real lighting, we keep them their for 23 hours a day, like a caged animal. Animals are treated better. Image sitting in a grimly light bathroom 23 hours a day, waiting for them to kill you. And finally, if we are to defend "an eye for a eye" then who will pay for this MURDER!!!

dolphinz

04-04-2005, 06:54 PM

No I do not believe in the death Pent. I know taking alife is wrong, if you take it just to take it, but two wrongs don't make a right. The bible's commandments are clear and one is thou shall not kill. So what makes the death pent right??? Nothing does it's just another murder on top of another and another. It will never stop. Being locked up for whatever to life is punshment enough. Think about it If one has life with out any possiable chance (even the slightest nile to none) of Parole, I found most inmate to say they rather die than to spend life in prison. I know I was upset when my Husband said he rather die, and he only killed in self defence against a man who almost took his life.

lightkeeper

04-19-2005, 11:14 AM

Keltria

04-19-2005, 11:29 AM

To be honest I do not agree with the death penalty, or the eye for an eye or reffering to the bible when someone is executed. I do not agree that lethal injection is not cruel and unusual and I also do not agree that people cant have contact visits with DR inmates. Wow i dont agree with a lot of stuff do I?

CelliePieGrrl

04-19-2005, 11:40 AM

kipwrecked

04-19-2005, 11:46 AM

What's so controversial about it. Some people are just plain evil or bad. These kind of people have been parsed through the prison systems time and time again yet hold no remorse. You can't defend their behaviour and I know putting them to death is the only way to truly protect our society from these people and put a cease to their influence.

To be honest I do not agree with the death penalty, or the eye for an eye or reffering to the bible when someone is executed. I do not agree that lethal injection is not cruel and unusual and I also do not agree that people cant have contact visits with DR inmates. Wow i dont agree with a lot of stuff do I?
It's not simply an eye for an eye. We are sacrificing ones life so that many may live. I disagree that it is cruel and unusual. It is nearly impossible to offer a death that is painfree. And relative to murders and other natural deaths this is incredibly humane. DR inmates don't deserve human contact. If they could handle human contact they wouldn't be in the antisocial situation they are in now.

The simplest solution is usually the correct one.

Keltria

04-19-2005, 11:46 AM

So lets hear from those pro death Penalty people and get a real discussion going

CelliePieGrrl

04-19-2005, 11:54 AM

DR inmates don't deserve human contact. If they could handle human contact they wouldn't be in the antisocial situation they are in now.

Excuse me?!? Oh no you did not just say that...EVERYONE on this earth deserves human contact, every living being. My husband is a death row inmate, thank you very much, and he DOES deserve human contact. He shouldn't even be where he is, because he was only an accomplice to the crime, he is NOT a murderer. But either way, all human beings deserve human touch and someone to care about them. I am just curious what is your hatred toward death row inmates, or what is your problem really?

Keltria

04-19-2005, 11:58 AM

Yes tell us why you hate DP people so much. This is a debate lets debate it!

Retired-26

04-19-2005, 12:00 PM

Keltria

04-19-2005, 12:08 PM

Good point Ashtynn, well put.

kipwrecked

04-19-2005, 12:11 PM

Excuse me?!? Oh no you did not just say that...EVERYONE on this earth deserves human contact, every living being. My husband is a death row inmate, thank you very much, and he DOES deserve human contact. He shouldn't even be where he is, because he was only an accomplice to the crime, he is NOT a murderer. But either way, all human beings deserve human touch and someone to care about them. I am just curious what is your hatred toward death row inmates, or what is your problem really?
This is a debate. Theres no hatred.

Personally I don't think accomplices should be given the DP. Human contact is not a right. If it was we could just go and rape or assault people. It's a privelege. And you have to treat it as such, with a certain amount of responsibility! ie. dont murder people, rape or assault! People who dont value the right to life, can't expect we treat them with any sympathy. Letting someone live who has violated one of the most basic human rights is sending a very strong, evil message. They don't believe in basic human rights,theres no rehabilitation for that and we would be sending the message that their life is more important that anothers if we let them live, KNOWING the damage they have caused and are likely to cause again.

Retired-26

04-19-2005, 12:23 PM

This is a debate. Theres no hatred.

Personally I don't think accomplices should be given the DP. Human contact is not a right. If it was we could just go and rape or assault people. It's a privelege. And you have to treat it as such, with a certain amount of responsibility! ie. dont murder people, rape or assault! People who dont value the right to life, can't expect we treat them with any sympathy. Letting someone live who has violated one of the most basic human rights is sending a very strong, evil message. They don't believe in basic human rights,theres no rehabilitation for that and we would be sending the message that their life is more important that anothers if we let them live, KNOWING the damage they have caused and are likely to cause again.
but who is properly trained to make these decicions...who is fit for death and who isnt? do you think they should have to be college educated? do you think they should have have had extensive study in criminal behavior and its effects on society? what do you think the qualifications should be?

kipwrecked

04-19-2005, 12:25 PM

[QUOTE=kipwrecked] DR inmates don't deserve human contact. If they could handle human contact they wouldn't be in the antisocial situation they are in now.

[QUOTE]

really? so what about the ones that ARE proven innocent? also, IMO, if you treat someone like they are nothing how do you expect them to want to be anything?
Well its our duty to make sure we have the right people. And besides I'm talking about people who have been through the system time and time again, or the Osama bin Ladens etc. We know theyre guilty and they refuse to be rehabilitated. Just because you dont want to sift through the guilty and the not guilty doesnt mean the DP is not a valid punishmnt. These people arent going to be anything. So this comment is really rather pointless.

lets just say, you were wrongly convicted of something and sentanced to death...or better yet, your child was sentanced to death for lets say.....playing with a gun at a friends house and accidentally shot the friend...but you didnt have the money for proper representaion and the case got completely turned around and looked like it was done on purpose...the final riuling...death by leathal injection.
Firstly, I or they would be sentenced. Secondly, I would not allow my child to be in a home where there were guns. Thirdly, if for some bizarre reason this happened, this is an accidental death. We're talking premeditated murders here. Not manslaughter.

ok so now...he is automatically a monster to sociaety, heaven forbid ANYONE with any common sense, talk about him, visit him, or touch him...he is worthless, horrible, disgusting. he cant handle human contact, or he wouldnt be where he was in the first place.

If my child (or anyone I knew) was capable of premeditated murder there would be something wrong with him. He would have problems fitting in our society, and socially retarded therefore. If he could relate to what effect murder would have on the families of the victim, the friends, the community at general in relation to fear and could still do what he did then he deserves the death sentence. In this case should certainly not be allowed near people. If he didn't know it was wrong it still doesnt relieve him of ANY responsibility. And as a community we cant allow such dangerous people to inflict themselves upon society.

I would try my hardest to make sure my child didnt end up committing a crime such as murder. But what you described is manslaughter.

imagine this is YOUR baby boy people are talking about. the lil precious thing you brought home from the hospital. how would you feel?
Theres no denying I would feel awful.

But hey, I would feel awful about ANYONE being killed.

I think you're attitude of 'me and mine' is rather a small scope and if everyone practised their own justice the world would be full of murders. You have to rely on the system at some point. We have to make the system work.. and the death penalty is a good start.

kipwrecked

04-19-2005, 12:30 PM

but who is properly trained to make these decicions...who is fit for death and who isnt? do you think they should have to be college educated? do you think they should have have had extensive study in criminal behavior and its effects on society? what do you think the qualifications should be?
Well how would you feel about a person flipping burgers part time and deciding death penalties the rest of the time?

I think the best option is just sentencing for those who are repeat offenders of more serious crimes, and those who commit murders. We have a duty to ensure they are not innocent.. and at this point if you're a repeat rapist then its fairly likely you're not innocent. However maybe there should be a reasonably lengthy fair appeals time to really make sure these people are guilty.

Slainte

04-19-2005, 12:30 PM

I am going to warn all of you who choose to post in this thread to tread lightly. There are several members here who have loved ones on death row. PTO is a SUPPORT site, first and foremost.

There are SEVERAL threads in the DP forums that address people's views on the subject, including mine. I urge any one who's interested to go read them, as there are some wonderful, thoughtful remarks by people on both sides of the issue.

If this thread in any way gets out of hand it will be closed. Please be respectful of each other.

Slainte
PTO Admin

Retired-26

04-19-2005, 12:43 PM

obviously you have a loved one in prison or you would not be on this sight....

did you ever think they would do what they did to be put in prison? is it your son or daughter? do you think you raised them to be a criminal? im sure not. neither do the parents of children on deathrow. so i do not agree with your statement that"if you raised them right...they would not be like that" i strongly suggest you read richard cartwright's mother's testimony.

and i was simply throwing out a vague scenario....i didnt think i had to go thru every if and or but...you knew what i was getting at.

if you do need a real scenario..i have one for you....

some depressed 18 year olds are getting high on drugs at a friiends house. afterwards, while not in the right state of mind, one of the teens goes inside the house and shoots 2 of his friends. (b/c they had a suppossed suicide pact) the teen doesnt follow thru with the pact, gets scared and flees the scene. after being SENTENCED...he is given the death penalty for the murders. NOW...that is a very short and vague version of the story...but do you think that warrants the death panalty?

what did sentencing him to die do?

i am so flustered i cant even type, sorry

Keltria

04-19-2005, 12:46 PM

I think Lightkeeper said in the begining it's a debate and not to make comments that were offensive or harsh. I have been telling people all day that taking other DR peoples feeling into consideration is a major factor here. Yes some of us are for and against and some of us have strong views. Lets keep this thread as a debate and if you want to debate, be nice about it.

Retired-26

04-19-2005, 12:52 PM

[QUOTE=kipwrecked]Well how would you feel about a person flipping burgers part time and deciding death penalties the rest of the time?[QUOTE]

i feel college educated, president or mcdonalds workers, we are human, and do not have the authority to choose who dies and who doesnt.

babygirl350

04-19-2005, 01:11 PM

I just want to state my opinion, I am totally against the death penalty for everyone. Sadly, I haven't always felt that way. Oh, I have always been against the death penalty, but only for some people until someone reminded me I couldn't sit on the fence that way. I was either for or against it.

So now I take the stance I am against it.

The main reason I am against it, is because I think for the most part, although not always the victims families want retribution and I don't feel execution really brings closure. It in fact is another death. Another useless death.

I feel that too many people have been put to death who are innocent, who have been proven by DNA not to be the killer, who are mentally retarded enough to not even be aware of what execution really means.

I also see no value in giving someone the death penalty who didn't even commit the murder to begin with, but were given the sentence because someone else turned states evidence. How very cruel.

I know that some who are against the death penalty do not believe in Life Without Parole, however, I do and the reason I do, is because I feel it gives people another option to the death penalty.

I think alot of people who may be leaning against the death penalty indeed give it for fear someone would be able to make parole in the future. If there was the other option perhaps people wouldn't be so quick to give the death penalty.

I just fail to see how executing someone will bring comfort to someone even after loosing a loved one.

Just my thoughts on the subject. Hope everyone will share their feelings in an appropriate manner.

Obviously, people are either going to be stongly for or strongly against the death penalty. That doesn't mean we cannot state our opinions in a civilized way.

Keltria

04-19-2005, 01:26 PM

I have said this many times too, my brother was murdered by an off duty police man, and never once did our family, his wife or his 2 year old daughter he left behind ever even think DP. He was drunk and was just shooting his gun off. His death would have not given us any satisfaction at all. It does not bring the loved one back and it does not make getting over that loved one's loss any easier.

JessDaPrincess

04-19-2005, 01:33 PM

WHOA!!!!!!!!!!! Someone in here has my buddy UPSET over here!!!!!!!!! :mad:
I must say that I do agree with Ashtynn on this one. The death Penalty is just plain out WRONG and I don't think that ANYONE deserves to be put to death for any reason. People do make mistakes BUT people also change!!!!! There are SOOOOOOOOOO MANY people on DR that really are innocent but there's not enough people trying to help them and believing in them to prove it. The fact of the matter is, there are 2 sides to EVERY STORY!!!!!!! People are so quick to listen to the one side and automatically assume that story is the right one and not even give the other story a chance to be heard. Or they do hear the other story but no one ever really HEARS it because everyone already has their mind made up on believing the other story. And another very real fact about this matter is that ALOT of the people deciding the innocence of these DR inmates are CROOKED AS HELL. People tamper with evidence, witnesses, and just twist the whole case around to place the blame on one sigle person. Cops do that sh** ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL THE TIME!!!!!!!!! It's been proven, people just ignore that fact!!!!!!! Everybody want's the think that the law is always right but it's not!!!!!! Those people are sometimes just as messed up in the head as SOME of the people they are trying to prosecute (the one's who really are guilty)!!!!!!!! Nobody's perfect in this world and yes, some of the DR inmates really have done wrong things, but I still don't think they deserve to die for their mistakes. I believe that GOD himself should be the ONLY decider of who lives or dies. NO ONE and I mean NO ONE, no matter what their reason may be, should have the right to take the life of another human being!!!!!!!! 2 wrongs just don't make a right!!!!! So, it's ok to teach our children that "sometimes killing is ok"????? Because THAT is exactly that the death penalty does. It's like saying "this person was bad, so it's ok to take their life for what they did" THAT only makes this world a lil worse. Just think about all the gang violence and stuff that goes on. I have lost ALOT of very good friends to that and you know what, if EVERYONE thought that someone deserves to die for every wrong doing, then we would have the whole world killing each other for something they did wrong.
A rival gang member killed my friend about a year ago because he thought my friend was someone else that he had personal beef with. Now, because he did that, is it ok to go take his life now???? NO, of course not 2 wrongs don't make a right!!!!!!!!! Would it be ok for my friends family to go kill him for what he did???? No, but that's exactly what the death penalty does..... it only sends out the message that killing someone is sometimes ok!!!!! Just my 2 cents the death penalty is WRONG, 110% WRONG and should not be a legal method of punishment under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Schmusi34

04-19-2005, 01:40 PM

amznbert

04-19-2005, 01:51 PM

So I am going to be the odd man out here and say yes you can be of two minds on this issue. I do believe in the death penalty in one set of situations, That being people who commit mass murders or incite others to do it for them weather it be in the name of religion or politics. These people who go after a group of people either based on a set of looks, racial makeup, or similar beliefs do so based on set manifestos or psychotic mindsets. These people have justified killing many many people and some times not even their intended victims, so what is to keep them from justifying killing again while they are in prison? Do you think that medication and counseling will turn some one like guy who lead the ethnic cleansing over in Serbia or that sadam husain can become a productive member of his society? So I am sorry but those who admit that they have killed and will kill again for their own means deserve the death penalty.

Now in all other cases no the death penalty is wrong and should not be used, especially how it is today. Life in prison is a fitting punishment.

I am sorry if i have offended any one with my views and such but i still think that the death penalty has a very very very small part in the world.

Schmusi34

04-19-2005, 01:59 PM

That being people who commit mass murders or incite others to do it for them weather it be in the name of religion or politics. These people who go after a group of people either based on a set of looks, racial makeup, or similar beliefs do so based on set manifestos or psychotic mindsets. .
so you would put the whole government down to be killed?

Retired-26

04-19-2005, 02:01 PM

oooooooo...GREAT point! :thumbsup:so you would put the whole government down to be killed?

amznbert

04-19-2005, 02:08 PM

which government? historicaly this has happend. Now if you mean the US government yes if they would admit to murdering people in for their own views and stood infront of a world court.

lightkeeper

04-19-2005, 07:20 PM

some depressed 18 year olds are getting high on drugs at a friiends house. afterwards, while not in the right state of mind, one of the teens goes inside the house and shoots 2 of his friends. (b/c they had a suppossed suicide pact) the teen doesnt follow thru with the pact, gets scared and flees the scene. after being SENTENCED...he is given the death penalty for the murders. NOW...that is a very short and vague version of the story...but do you think that warrants the death panalty?

Just out of curiousity, was the suicide pact run as a defence and rejected by the jury?

Or is a suicide-pact killing still capital murder in the jurisdiction?

What is the jurisdiction anyway?

Has the appellate process been exhausted?

Just my opinions:

No, this is not a DP case.

In my opinion DP can only be justified in the most extreme of circumstances, ie mass murderers, terrorists, people who inflict torture and then kill, and only if not mentally ill. Also, if we're to have DP, we might have to introduce a second standard of proof, "beyond-ANY-doubt". A jury could only sentence to death if it had absolutely no doubt at all (ie 100%) that the accused was guilty of the crime and that his/her culpability was in no way diminished at the time. At the moment no such safeguards exist and I'm against DP.

DP for teenagers is an absolute disgrace and it truly makes me wonder (and has for some time) how a country that claims to be the civilisation's bastion of democracy, rule of law, freedom and progress can have it as part of its law.

sunshine55

04-19-2005, 07:29 PM

lightkeeper

04-19-2005, 07:31 PM

so you would put the whole government down to be killed?
Schamusi34: what government are you referring to?

sunshine55

04-19-2005, 07:36 PM

DP is not the answer but sometimes you have to go to extremes to get the point across------------never had a loved one killed or whos killed another----------but If someone raped or hurt my babies---kids----not matter what . I wouldnt wait on the court system-----------------------------That says it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

optimistic

04-19-2005, 07:46 PM

Oh Boy I enter this thread with extreme caution! This subject is so sensative and I commend all of you for keeping the conversation focused. I for one believe that our government/justice system should not decide who should take another breath.

Our system is extemely flawed and based on that alone I have difficulty giving so much power to such an imperfect and unfair system.

Too often people are sentenced to death that are innocent or stay on the row and they are innocent. I guess it's just hard to justify killing so many people when the system as a whole is so messed up. How can we kill someone with any DOUBT whether reasonable or unreasonable as to this persons innocence?

As for the crime rate and death penalty....I think that is just a cop out. The real crime issues exist not because we have the death penalty but because we have a society that embraces oppressing the poor and underpriviledged while the rich get richer regardless of the laws they break. Our crime rate is high because of illiteracy, unemployment, a lack of health care, homeless families and just plain living in the straight up struggles.

lightkeeper

04-19-2005, 08:01 PM

What I'm about to say is not meant to offend anyone. Even in circumstances where I believe DP is justifiable, offenders must be treated with respect, given a fair trial and the benefit of the full appellate process. DP is only justifiable in truly exceptional circumstances.

People do make mistakes BUT people also change!!!!!
I couldn't help but wonder about your use of the word "mistake". It seems to be used so often. If you kill by mistake (ie you think you're doing something else and not killing at all) you can't be guilty of murder. People don't get sentenced to death for mistakes. There's nothing mistake-ish about crime.

So, it's ok to teach our children that "sometimes killing is ok"?????
Firstly, we have to teach them that anyway. Sometimes killing IS ok. Eg self-defence, protection of your country against an enemy.

We were all children once and at some stage someone has told us that sometimes killing is ok or that the death penalty is a justified killing. It doesn't make us think we can go ahead and commit murder. There's literature as to how this stuff can be communicated to children.

A rival gang member killed my friend about a year ago because he thought my friend was someone else that he had personal beef with. Now, because he did that, is it ok to go take his life now????
If we were to accept (hypothetically) that DP for gang killings is ok, would you then say that this person shouldn't get DP because he meant to kill someone else? Is that your point?

Just my 20 cents.

lightkeeper

04-19-2005, 08:11 PM

What I'm about to say is not intended to offend anyone. Taking part in the discussion I'm likely to take issue with people's points that I believe to be incorrect or uncertain. This does not mean I disagree with their ultimate conclusion or that my beliefs are different to theirs.

Is it not strange that in contries without the death penalty, the crime rates are ALOT lower?
It might be strange or it might not be strange. Do we know HOW this result has come about? Ie:

1. Are their crime rates so high because they've got the death penalty? OR

2. Do they have the death penalty because their crime rates are so high and they therefore believe that DP is needed to keep it from going even higher?

Do we know the causes of those crime rates being so high? Do you know of an example of a country that introduced DP and subsequently had a material increase in the rates of murder? Or of a country that abolished DP and subsequently had a material reduction in the rates of murder?

lightkeeper

04-19-2005, 08:30 PM

Do you think that medication and counseling will turn some one like guy who lead the ethnic cleansing over in Serbia or that sadam husain can become a productive member of his society?
Are you saying that unless someone can be productive, they should be killed? This might extend your argument to some disabled people, elderly people, mentally ill people, unemployed people, euthanasia and politicians.

So I am sorry but those who admit that they have killed and will kill again for their own means deserve the death penalty.
Usually admission of guilt is relied on for a discount in sentencing because it avoids the trial and saves resources for the community, distress to victims and inconvenience to witnesses. You're actually suggesting the reverse.

kipwrecked

04-19-2005, 08:58 PM

kipwrecked

04-19-2005, 09:10 PM

Firstly I'd like to say you can ABSOLUTELY be of two minds about the death penalty. Why shouldn't it be allowed for some situations and not for others? It seems more fitting if you do have the DP to have it in situations that absolutely warrant it. EVERY STORY IS DIFFERENT. I can't imagine Osama bin Laden would get many objections.

Secondly, apologies to anyone who has been offended at my posts. Don't think I'll even try to justify..

WHOA!!!!!!!!!!! Someone in here has my buddy UPSET over here!!!!!!!!! :mad:
I must say that I do agree with Ashtynn on this one. The death Penalty is just plain out WRONG and I don't think that ANYONE deserves to be put to death for any reason. People do make mistakes BUT people also change!!!!! There are SOOOOOOOOOO MANY people on DR that really are innocent but there's not enough people trying to help them and believing in them to prove it. The fact of the matter is, there are 2 sides to EVERY STORY!!!!!!! People are so quick to listen to the one side and automatically assume that story is the right one and not even give the other story a chance to be heard. Or they do hear the other story but no one ever really HEARS it because everyone already has their mind made up on believing the other story. And another very real fact about this matter is that ALOT of the people deciding the innocence of these DR inmates are CROOKED AS HELL. People tamper with evidence, witnesses, and just twist the whole case around to place the blame on one sigle person. Cops do that sh** ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL THE TIME!!!!!!!!! It's been proven, people just ignore that fact!!!!!!! Everybody want's the think that the law is always right but it's not!!!!!! Those people are sometimes just as messed up in the head as SOME of the people they are trying to prosecute (the one's who really are guilty)!!!!!!!! Nobody's perfect in this world and yes, some of the DR inmates really have done wrong things, but I still don't think they deserve to die for their mistakes. I believe that GOD himself should be the ONLY decider of who lives or dies. NO ONE and I mean NO ONE, no matter what their reason may be, should have the right to take the life of another human being!!!!!!!! 2 wrongs just don't make a right!!!!! So, it's ok to teach our children that "sometimes killing is ok"????? Because THAT is exactly that the death penalty does. It's like saying "this person was bad, so it's ok to take their life for what they did" THAT only makes this world a lil worse. Just think about all the gang violence and stuff that goes on. I have lost ALOT of very good friends to that and you know what, if EVERYONE thought that someone deserves to die for every wrong doing, then we would have the whole world killing each other for something they did wrong.
A rival gang member killed my friend about a year ago because he thought my friend was someone else that he had personal beef with. Now, because he did that, is it ok to go take his life now???? NO, of course not 2 wrongs don't make a right!!!!!!!!! Would it be ok for my friends family to go kill him for what he did???? No, but that's exactly what the death penalty does..... it only sends out the message that killing someone is sometimes ok!!!!! Just my 2 cents the death penalty is WRONG, 110% WRONG and should not be a legal method of punishment under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You make some really good (and passionate!) points. Killing is not right at all, so why do murderers deserve their lives if they are so disrespectful of others lives? What would be a valid punishment for this situation?

kipwrecked

04-19-2005, 09:23 PM

I for one believe that our government/justice system should not decide who should take another breath.

Our system is extemely flawed and based on that alone I have difficulty giving so much power to such an imperfect and unfair system.

Too often people are sentenced to death that are innocent or stay on the row and they are innocent. I guess it's just hard to justify killing so many people when the system as a whole is so messed up. How can we kill someone with any DOUBT whether reasonable or unreasonable as to this persons innocence?

As for the crime rate and death penalty....I think that is just a cop out. The real crime issues exist not because we have the death penalty but because we have a society that embraces oppressing the poor and underpriviledged while the rich get richer regardless of the laws they break. Our crime rate is high because of illiteracy, unemployment, a lack of health care, homeless families and just plain living in the straight up struggles.
Some very intelligent remarks.

However, don't the government already decide who should live and die? What about IRAQ? What about any wars. Looks to me the government already has too much power.

kipwrecked

04-19-2005, 09:37 PM

What I'm about to say is not meant to offend anyone. Even in circumstances where I believe DP is justifiable, offenders must be treated with respect, given a fair trial and the benefit of the full appellate process. DP is only justifiable in truly exceptional circumstances.

I couldn't help but wonder about your use of the word "mistake". It seems to be used so often. If you kill by mistake (ie you think you're doing something else and not killing at all) you can't be guilty of murder. People don't get sentenced to death for mistakes. There's nothing mistake-ish about crime.
I think the word mistake refers to people being misguided and committing crimes, as well as pure accidents which would not make you guilty of murder. We've all done bad things at some point, doesn't mean we will always continue to do bad things. Some people cheat on their partners again and again, and get married and dont do it ever again and say it was just a mistake. but they learned from their mistake and are happily married. They DID do something wrong, but they learned and grew up. Why can't we give people this kind of chance to prove themselves in the justice system?

Firstly, we have to teach them that anyway. Sometimes killing IS ok. Eg self-defence, protection of your country against an enemy.

We were all children once and at some stage someone has told us that sometimes killing is ok or that the death penalty is a justified killing. It doesn't make us think we can go ahead and commit murder. There's literature as to how this stuff can be communicated to children.

If we were to accept (hypothetically) that DP for gang killings is ok, would you then say that this person shouldn't get DP because he meant to kill someone else? Is that your point?

Just my 20 cents.
Whats the difference between murder and manslaughter? :confused: What EXACTLY constitutes a murder?

titantoo

04-19-2005, 10:03 PM

Since 1973, 118 people in 25 states have been released from death row with evidence of their innnocence.

Amnesty International's point of view

In the USA and many other countries, violent crime is a serious problem. Such crimes have tragic and lasting ramifications for the families and loved ones of the victims. As an organization dedicated to the victims of human rights violations, Amnesty International would never seek to excuse or belittle these crimes. But the death penalty is a calculated denial of the right to life and the right not to be subjected to cruel, inhuman or degrading punishment - basic rights to which all human beings are entitled, no matter who they are or what they have done.

My personal opinion concurs with Amnesty International. Judicial murder is just quite simply wrong no matter what the crime. As an individual and a Jew I may have wished to kill Hitler. As a state or judicial system, even his judicial murder would have been wrong. Israel was wrong to execute Eichman, in my opinion and his execution upset me greatly at the time even though I loathed the man. The world is full of extreme people and some of them hate Jews, for example. What made Nazi Germany so awful was that the state made it ok to hate Jews. As far as I am concerned, the state murdering people is morally wrong because it undervalues life by taking anyones right to have it! At some level it is saying it is OK to murder people.

lightkeeper

04-19-2005, 10:13 PM

Some people cheat on their partners again and again, and get married and dont do it ever again and say it was just a mistake. but they learned from their mistake and are happily married.
Cheating on your partner is a mistake if you thought who you were sleeping with was your partner but it turned out to be someone else, or if you thought the relationship had been ended and that your partner knew that. Otherwise it's not a mistake. It's deliberate CHEATING.

Same with crime. Crime is intentional and it's just not a mistake. It's a euphimism to call it a mistake. If you were the victim of a violent rape and the perpetrator told you "sorry, I made a mistake", would you feel comfortable with that apology?

Whats the difference between murder and manslaughter? :confused: What EXACTLY constitutes a murder?
Murder is the intentional and unlawful (without an excuse known to law) taking of another person's life.

Manslaughter is the killing of somebody without an actual intention to cause death but being reckless, ie knowing that death may occur, turning your mind to that possibility and still committing the act that ultimately causes death.

There are other species of manslaughter. Eg, in some jurisdiction juries can reduce a charge of murder to a manslaughter conviction if the accused was provoke to the extent that he was not the "master of himself".

And there are statutory murders. Eg in some places if you commit a violent act with the intention of causing serious injury and you cause death you still can be guilty of murder.

lightkeeper

04-19-2005, 10:24 PM

Judicial murder is just quite simply wrong no matter what the crime.... At some level it is saying it is OK to murder people.
With respect, I think by calling DP "judicial murder" people are trying to steer the debate (I'm talking globally, not just in the forum) away from a logical/moral argument and towards an emotionally charged and imbalanced polemic.

How can we on one hand refer to a cold bloodied murder by an andividual as "mistake" and on the other call DP murder?

Whether you agree with DP or not, DP is not murder. Murder has to be unlawful. If a killing is sanctioned by the law then it is not murder. It's like calling the imposition of fines by a court theft. Or the imposition of a prison sentence Judicial Kidnapping.

The State has a legal right to legislate for DP. That can't be disputed. Does it have the moral right? That's the real question. If it doesn't, that still doesnt make DP unlawful. It simply makes it an immoral law. There are many examples of laws which people (depending on their views) would consider immoral.

kipwrecked

04-19-2005, 10:25 PM

My personal opinion concurs with Amnesty International. Judicial murder is just quite simply wrong no matter what the crime. As an individual and a Jew I may have wished to kill Hitler. As a state or judicial system, even his judicial murder would have been wrong. Israel was wrong to execute Eichman, in my opinion and his execution upset me greatly at the time even though I loathed the man. The world is full of extreme people and some of them hate Jews, for example. What made Nazi Germany so awful was that the state made it ok to hate Jews. As far as I am concerned, the state murdering people is morally wrong because it undervalues life by taking anyones right to have it! At some level it is saying it is OK to murder people.
Man this is a good post!

I have likened the death penalty to genocide in previous posts.. and this is because we consider killing people for race or religion or political stances a heinous crime. Basically if you break a law, you are disagreeing with the rules formed by our society (politically).. I don't see how wiping out a class of people who have made errors is not a heinous act. To err is human!

As for Hitler, the man was severely depressed and committed suicide. He did not value his own life, and the death penalty would have been a release for him, not a punishment. For those who TRULY are unable to be rehabilitated, they would not (generally) value their own lives, or they would have tried to fit into society. For these the death penalty is not a punishment, its a way out. These are the people we're trying to protect society from, if the death penalty is not fit for them, it cant be fit for anyone.

lightkeeper

04-19-2005, 10:40 PM

Man this is a good post!

I have likened the death penalty to genocide in previous posts.. and this is because we consider killing people for race or religion or political stances a heinous crime. Basically if you break a law, you are disagreeing with the rules formed by our society (politically).. I don't see how wiping out a class of people who have made errors is not a heinous act. To err is human!
Errors?

As for genocide, I think you're missing my point. Firstly, you've taken upon yourself to extend the definition of genocide to include political stance! The definition is about an ethnic GROUP, ie citizens of a particular country/state.

DP is not genocide, it's NOTHING LIKE genocide. Genocide is indiscriminate killing of people of a particular group (usually done en masse). Innocent people. Slaughtering women and children just because they're muslims or white or Austarlian. DP is not about killing innocent people. It's a punishment. If DP is genocide then imprisoning thieves is discrimination. Genocide is a "systematic and planned extermination". DP generally is none of that. It's dependent on the circumstances of the case. If a law were to say "Everyone found stealing shall be killed" then perhaps you could compare it to genocide. But we're discussing DP generally and not in those specific circumstances.

As for your other point, are you suggesting we should imprison those who want to die and kill those who want to go to prison? Just to get at them?

Note: this doesn't mean I'm advocating DP. Simply questioning your comparison. In my view it's unfairly emotionally charged. Your attitude is: An individual who kills (even who kills many people) is erring, making a mistake. A state who kills a mass murder is committing genocide.

kipwrecked

04-19-2005, 10:43 PM

With respect, I think by calling DP "judicial murder" people are trying to steer the debate (I'm talking globally, not just in the forum) away from a logical/moral argument and towards an emotionally charged and imbalanced polemic.

How can we on one hand refer to a cold bloodied murder by an andividual as "mistake" and on the other call DP murder?

Whether you agree with DP or not, DP is not murder. Murder has to be unlawful. If a killing is sanctioned by the law then it is not murder. It's like calling the imposition of fines by a court theft. Or the imposition of a prison sentence Judicial Kidnapping.

The State has a legal right to legislate for DP. That can't be disputed. Does it have the moral right? That's the real question. If it doesn't, that still doesnt make DP unlawful. It simply makes it an immoral law. There are many examples of laws which people (depending on their views) would consider immoral.
lets rape rapists! lets kill innocent people too! lets send the boys round to beat the snot out of those who are charged with assault.

Just because it is legal to do some things, it doesnt make them just or right or true or moral. What is socially acceptable changes over time, and the laws should change to accomodate that. As a species we're clever and I'm sure we can find ways to combat problems earlier on. Send first time offenders to Dr Phil for all I care. If laws never changed I'd be wearing a dress down to my ankles, not be permitted to vote, certainly wouldn't wear a bikini on the beach, watch movies where love scenes consisted of one foot on the floor at all times... oh yes, and I'd put my feet up and watch my slaves do all my housework.

As a society we're supposed to promote higher moral standards, you can't do that by crouching down to the ethics of murderers, or in your terms Lightkeeper - those who kill intentionally.

you equate the death penalty to self defense (of the community) but if somebody killed somebody who had threatened them.. you couldnt plead self defense if you had time to think it over and calmly and rationally decide how you would kill this individual. It just wouldn't stand up in a court.. so why should the state have this godlike power?

lightkeeper

04-19-2005, 10:50 PM

lets rape rapists! lets kill innocent people too! lets send the boys round to beat the snot out of those who are charged with assault.
I can't see where this comes from.

you equate the death penalty to self defense (of the community)
I do not equate it. I said that not all killing is murder and this was just one of the examples.

There are other examples too. Please stick to logical/moral issues and refrain from emotional charges.

kipwrecked

04-19-2005, 11:06 PM

Errors?

As for genocide, I think you're missing my point. Firstly, you've taken upon yourself to extend the definition of genocide to include political stance! The definition is about an ethnic GROUP, ie citizens of a particular country/state.

DP is not genocide, it's NOTHING LIKE genocide. Genocide is indiscriminate killing of people of a particular group (usually done en masse). Innocent people. Slaughtering women and children just because they're muslims or white or Austarlian. DP is not about killing innocent people. It's a punishment. If DP is genocide then imprisoning thieves is discrimination. Genocide is a "systematic and planned extermination". DP generally is none of that. It's dependent on the circumstances of the case. If a law were to say "Everyone found stealing shall be killed" then perhaps you could compare it to genocide. But we're discussing DP generally and not in those specific circumstances.

As for your other point, are you suggesting we should imprison those who want to die and kill those who want to go to prison? Just to get at them?

Note: this doesn't mean I'm advocating DP. Simply questioning your comparison. In my view it's unfairly emotionally charged. Your attitude is: An individual who kills (even who kills many people) is erring, making a mistake. A state who kills a mass murder is committing genocide.
I was going off your previous definition. The DP is the systematic and planned extermination of all those seen to be committing fitting crimes.

The state is not supposed to make mistakes, it is an entity not a person. Being an authoritative body and knowingly putting people to death for whatever reason is different to a person, a human being, living their life, going through whatever twists their life goes through, going through strains and struggles, learning and growing, making mistakes - i say mistakes because people learn from them. Sure they may have intended to steal, yes it IS a crime. The mistake is a broader scope than you are looking at. The mistake doesnt include accidentally committing a robbery, we arent talking in this limited scope. The mistake regards an error of judgement over an extended period of time. You're taking issue with the word mistake. I'll try phrase it differently.. Over the course of a persons life (80 years or so) they change a lot. We learn an enormous amount. Why is it unreasonable to expect that people mature at different rates, different ages, in different ways. Some people need to explore the scope of morality to find their place in it. The subject of morality is very complex, its subjective, it takes some people more time to reach the same moral ground as the society in which they live, it takes some people no time. Everybody is different. Can we really execute people who take longer to learn? And can we execute people who don't learn? KNOWING WHAT WE KNOW?

lightkeeper

04-19-2005, 11:22 PM

Everybody is different. Can we really execute people who take longer to learn?
In my opinion DP is only appropriate in extreme cases. Offenders who deliberately kill more than one person, with premeditation, knowing that it's morally wrong. People who are extremely unlikely to "grow". People who know that what they did is morally wrong.

If your use of "mistake" refers to people who haven't "grown" to undestand the moral wrong of murder then we're in agreement that DP shouldn't apply to them.

shines

04-19-2005, 11:35 PM

lightkeeper

04-19-2005, 11:48 PM

My belief is that the comandment "Thou shalt not kill " is a higher law than that of any government. As such I believe that the death penalty is government sanctioned murder. I do not believe that any person or government has the right to decide to take a life. The possibility of executing an innocent adds to my concern. I think that statistics show that violent crime has not dropped in states that have adopted the death penalty. We have not addressed the huge financial cost of the death penalty as well - it costs much less to imprison someone for life rather than to execute them. I feel sorrow for the loved ones of those on death row. I can't imagine the pain that they must endure. Bottom line- the death penalty doesn't even seem logical to me.
I've tried to keep this thread religion-free. But ..... the Bible is not opposed to the death penalty. In fact, in many passages it condones it. I'm not trying to use the bible to back DP. Just saying that you can't really use the 10 commandments against it.

Yeah, I've been curious about that part about the States that have adopted DP. Can you point out to some statistical data on that?

Huge financial cost - depends on the method of execution involved. And I would hardly consider that costs should be an issue in this type of case. Eg, if it costs more to hold someone in jail for the rest of their life than it does to kill them and we decide that DP is wrong, costs should not persuade us to adopt DP!

I think......
Possibility of executing an innocent person or a person whose mitigating circumstances, though existing, were not properly presented to the Court by their lawyer, is really the reason why DP is wrong.

shines

04-20-2005, 12:04 AM

I understand and respect your desire to keep this sight religion free.My initial knee jerk response was related to being raised in a family who taught that civil disobediance was an important tool when we felt that certain government policies and laws were in conflict with what we had been taught were higher laws. As to the statistics that I referred to _ this was information that I recalled from college classes. I would have to dig some to come up with the sources. Unfortunately I don't have the time tonight - I should be doing paperwork for my job. I do agree that the execution of innocents is probably the most compelling argument against the death penalty.

lightkeeper

04-20-2005, 12:14 AM

As to the statistics that I referred to _ this was information that I recalled from college classes.
The statistics are relevant because they're often referred to by anti-DP people, stating that DP is not a deterrent. But I'm not clear on the meaning of these statistics. They could simply mean that states with DP have higher crime rates...... in other words that people in states with high crime rates have voted for DP to reduce those crime rates or prevent them from going even higher. Because these statistics are used in a highly emotive issue, one can't rely on them without a proper analysis (emotive issues often result in misinterpretations/misrepresentations of statistical data).

kipwrecked

04-20-2005, 12:16 AM

I've tried to keep this thread religion-free. But ..... the Bible is not opposed to the death penalty. In fact, in many passages it condones it. I'm not trying to use the bible to back DP. Just saying that you can't really use the 10 commandments against it.

Yeah, I've been curious about that part about the States that have adopted DP. Can you point out to some statistical data on that?

Huge financial cost - depends on the method of execution involved. And I would hardly consider that costs should be an issue in this type of case. Eg, if it costs more to hold someone in jail for the rest of their life than it does to kill them and we decide that DP is wrong, costs should not persuade us to adopt DP!

I think......
Possibility of executing an innocent person or a person whose mitigating circumstances, though existing, were not properly presented to the Court by their lawyer, is really the reason why DP is wrong.
Look - we can use the bible to justify anything. It is a text, THEREFORE IT IS OPEN TO INTERPRETATIONS, AND DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS OCCUR FOR DIFFERENT PEOPLE DEPENDING ON THEIR BACKGROUNDS AND BELIEFS. In a country like America there is a HUGE multicultural aspect, and to use ONE religion to justify the law is somewhat small minded. What about the Koran? What about the back of a cereal box? What about O magazine considering many people subscribe to Oprahism! Have to find a common ground and using texts like the bible to justify things is too narrow.

As for finanacial cost.. in Bowling for Columbine didn't I see that you could purchase bullets from K-Mart of all places for a mere $0.30 or something? But hey a McHappy Meal is cheaper than a 3 course meal with all your food groups... doesn't make it the best choice though! I agree with Lightkeeper in that while cost is a purely factual issue it is perhaps not the best reason for abolishing the DP.

Maybe we should stop focusing on punishments and get to the real root of the problems. I saw a comedian.. cant remember who sorry! and he said we should make bullets cost $5000 each and it would put a stop to random killings and if somebody gets killed you could say they must have really deserved it cos it cost $5000. I'm not subscribing to this point of view (altho it was just a joke) but it does raise a good point about nipping crime in the bud! Rather than waiting for people to commit serious crimes over and over to solve the problem. Socrates and Plato subscribed to the idea that if people knew what was morally right or wrong they would act in a way that is according. I don't know if this is 100% correct.. but you can't deny a lot of crime is senseless, a lot of it is thoughtless, and a very small percent has been thought over and stewed over before being carried out. How about curing the problems instead of curing the symptoms.

Aimee1

04-20-2005, 12:20 AM

DNA exonerates another death row inmate

Judi Villa
The Arizona Republic
Apr. 19, 2005 08:35 PM

New DNA testing has cast enough doubt to overturn the conviction of a death-row inmate who has spent 15 years trying to prove his innocence.

Clarence David Hill, 56, was condemnedfor the 1989 murder of his landlord, Dale Edmundson, who was burned alive in Mohave County.

At Hill's trial, prosecutors said he hit Edmundson over the head, wrapped him in a bedsheet and drove him in Edmundson's truck to a desert area south of Bullhead City, where Hill doused Edmundson with paint thinner and set him on fire.
Recent DNA testing found that Edmundson's blood was not the blood found on Hill's clothing and on the bedsheet, said Hill's attorney, Rick Williams. In fact, Williams said, the blood on the bedsheet was from a female.

"It is our position that it exonerates Mr. Hill," Williams said of the evidence. "Mr. Hill has been on death row for 15 years, and he has always maintained his innocence."

At the very least, the DNA evidence could have changed the way the case was argued and might have affected the jury's verdict.

"It is more likely than not that no reasonable juror would have convicted Mr. Hill in light of the present DNA evidence," Mohave County Superior Court Judge Richard Weiss wrote in an April 14 ruling to overturn Hill's conviction.

But Assistant Attorney General Kent Cattani said, "We still are of the view that it would not have changed the jury's verdict."

Since the country's first DNA exoneration in 1989, more and more inmates have attempted to overturn their sentences with genetic tests that weren't available when they were convicted. Nationwide, 157 inmates have been exonerated, including two in Arizona.

In other cases, like this one, DNA testing doesn't clearly exonerate a suspect but raises enough doubt to force new trials. Two other Arizona death-row inmates have had their convictions or sentences overturned because of post-conviction DNA testing. One is awaiting a new sentence. The other was allowed to plead guilty to second-degree murder and sentenced to time served; he walked free in August.

The state Attorney General's Office is expected to decide within weeks whether to appeal Weiss's ruling. If they don't, the case will be sent back to Mohave County, where prosecutors will decide if Hill will face a new trial, be offered a plea bargain or if the case will be dismissed.

Cattani said the blood evidence was "one minor piece of evidence" and "certainly was not the linchpin of the state's case."

"It's not DNA evidence that shows that somebody else committed this crime," Cattani said. "It may have changed the way the case was argued, but it does not exonerate the defendant."

Hill's shoe prints were found both at the scene and leading from where the truck was found to the victim's home, according to a 1993 Supreme Court ruling on Hill's case.

Hill lived in a mobile home on Edmondson's property and witnesses testified the two had quarreled over money about a week before the murder.

Hill, who had no steady source of income, had more than $200 and the victim's grocery receipt in his wallet when he was arrested. Edmundson's wallet was empty.

Still, Williams said, "There's no way Mr. Hill could have killed Mr. Edmundson, wrapped him in a bedsheet and carried him that far without getting blood on his clothes or on the bedsheet."

Williams said he would file a motion within the next few days asking for Hill's release. Hill, he said, is in poor health. He is confined to a wheelchair and uses oxygen to breathe.

"Naturally, he was ecstatic," Williams said of Hill. "He broke down and cried from the news."

Aimee1

04-20-2005, 12:24 AM

Look - we can use the bible to justify anything. It is a text, THEREFORE IT IS OPEN TO INTERPRETATIONS, AND DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS OCCUR FOR DIFFERENT PEOPLE DEPENDING ON THEIR BACKGROUNDS AND BELIEFS.

hmmm i have to disagree with that, as 1 Peter 1:20-21 states:

20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

shines

04-20-2005, 12:25 AM

lightkeeper

04-20-2005, 12:28 AM

DNA exonerates another death row inmate

Very good point. And then you have cases where a whole lot of convictions become questionable because of dubious DNA practices in a particular state over a period of time. We had a difficulty of this sort in Victoria, Australia recently. Fortunately we haven't executed anyone (Australia doesn't have DP)

lightkeeper

04-20-2005, 12:33 AM

hmmm i have to disagree with that, as 1 Peter 1:20-21 states:

20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

Yeah but that depends how you interpret 1 Peter 1:20-21 ;)
Also, that's an apostolic letter regarding the Bible (OLD TESTAMENT ONLY AT THAT!) and it's questionable whether it's making reference to itself as well. If not, then the letter in itself isn't coming from God but only from Peter's opinion.

Secondly, it's one thing to say that the Bible is not subject to interpretation. But the fact is that everyone understands the Bible differently.

kipwrecked

04-20-2005, 12:35 AM

hmmm i have to disagree with that, as 1 Peter 1:20-21 states:

20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
I'm not sure of the relevance of this. The bible is used all the time for private interpretations. This is my point. That a singular text can be used as such to determine the morality of a society comprised of many different religions and races is ridiculous.

As a reader, you bring your own opinions, beliefs, values etc to a text when you read it. Whether or not this is right to do so in relation to the bible is a separate thing. The simple fact is it happens. Using such subjective material to determine the rights of a nation of people with different beliefs religions and cultures on its own is careless.

Can we please leave this bible thing alone now, it has very little to do with the discussion we are conducting.

lightkeeper

04-20-2005, 12:37 AM

I believe the statistics I referred to were that violent crime did not drop when a state adopted the death penalty. Of course I also remember learning a quote that there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Violent crime did not, but did MURDER? (No DP for violent crime; only for murder). And if murder didn't drop, were there any other factors that came into play at the time which might have offset any drop in murder? Maybe murder would be higher if DP had not been introduced? Maybe this should be compared with other countries as well, not just with other USA states? When did these states adopt DP? When had they abolished it? See what I mean? All sorts of questions. You're quite right there are lies, damn lies and statistics. Must be very careful relying on them.

Ps. If 30% of road deaths occur in connection with drink driving then if I don't drink drive, I have a 70% chance of dying on the road ;)

Schmusi34

04-20-2005, 12:51 AM

which government? historicaly this has happend. Now if you mean the US government yes if they would admit to murdering people in for their own views and stood infront of a world court.
You can take any government you like, they are all the same. You also don't have to look up history, it happens today right infront of our eyes EVERYWHERE. Why would they have to admit it? Ordinary people can say what they want they still end up on DR. Especially when it comes down to religion. Even Jesus has been executed. He died as a victim of political punishment. And yet he is worshiped throughout the whole world. Since then most nations have not learned a single thing from this. We all fall down on our knees and pray when we hear his name, and then we turn around and kill others ourselves. Good moral thinking. Most crimes leading to DR would not happen if the government would provide the help needed, rather than plonking the money into their own pockets. If you go and have a look inside the prisons, you will find that a lot of small criminals learn there how to become a big one. And the best teachers are the guards. Even though I am German, I know what I am talking about, grown up with a father who was a prison officer. So what good is prison anyway, never mind DR? Who are we to decide who is guilty and who isn't? Years ago they did not know about DNA, a lot of mistakes were made, but what are we going to have in say 15 years? How many mistakes will we discover then? Human beings are far of perfect. We only use a fracture of our brain. We are simply not capeable of deciding on guilt. Therefore no one should be killed in the name of justice. Another thing I always find interesting. After the II WW the US and the rest of the NATO told us we were not allowed to kill anymore people because it is inhuman.... strange huh?

kipwrecked

04-20-2005, 01:03 AM

Who are we to decide who is guilty and who isn't? Years ago they did not know about DNA, a lot of mistakes were made, but what are we going to have in say 15 years? How many mistakes will we discover then? Human beings are far of perfect. We only use a fracture of our brain. We are simply not capeable of deciding on guilt. Therefore no one should be killed in the name of justice. Another thing I always find interesting. After the II WW the US and the rest of the NATO told us we were not allowed to kill anymore people because it is inhuman.... strange huh?
So you think its ok if we let people behave however they want, despite the greater good. Sure, as a society we've made mistakes.. HEY! We've made mistakes medically! Some old cures would be absolutely ridiculous today. Does that mean we should stop trialing drugs and testing them and researching them and working on it? We ARE capable of deciding guilt. IF we are given ALL OF THE FACTS. Unfortunately this is not always possible, but we are trying to learn more scientifically and otherwise to get the best possible outcome. Trying is far better than letting morals slide.

Schmusi34

04-20-2005, 01:09 AM

So you think its ok if we let people behave however they want, despite the greater good. Sure, as a society we've made mistakes.. HEY! We've made mistakes medically! Some old cures would be absolutely ridiculous today. Does that mean we should stop trialing drugs and testing them and researching them and working on it? We ARE capable of deciding guilt. IF we are given ALL OF THE FACTS. Unfortunately this is not always possible, but we are trying to learn more scientifically and otherwise to get the best possible outcome. Trying is far better than letting morals slide.
In my eyes we have no moral. And I think it would be much better to help people sort their problems rather than sending them to death. Most killings occur due to shortage of money & mental illnesses. Money issues are created by society & the government, mental illnesses can be treated if you have the money. Where is the moral if you have to be scared all the time that you stop functioning? And with you last sentence, are you trying to say that you'd rather kill an innocent person than taking a chance to set a murderer free?

kipwrecked

04-20-2005, 01:28 AM

In my eyes we have no moral. And I think it would be much better to help people sort their problems rather than sending them to death. Most killings occur due to shortage of money & mental illnesses. Money issues are created by society & the government, mental illnesses can be treated if you have the money. Where is the moral if you have to be scared all the time that you stop functioning? And with you last sentence, are you trying to say that you'd rather kill an innocent person than taking a chance to set a murderer free?
Your argument is not making a lot of sense. If we have no morals then rehabilitating people is not necessary. We have no morals... therefore nobody can do wrong.

And that is not what I'm saying.. I'm saying why quit now when we could work towards a point in time where we can be sure of guilt and punish the right people. Simply because there is a chance to make errors now does not mean we should abandon civilization.

titantoo

04-20-2005, 06:08 AM

With respect, I think by calling DP "judicial murder" people are trying to steer the debate (I'm talking globally, not just in the forum) away from a logical/moral argument and towards an emotionally charged and imbalanced polemic.

How can we on one hand refer to a cold bloodied murder by an andividual as "mistake" and on the other call DP murder?

Whether you agree with DP or not, DP is not murder. Murder has to be unlawful. If a killing is sanctioned by the law then it is not murder. It's like calling the imposition of fines by a court theft. Or the imposition of a prison sentence Judicial Kidnapping.

The State has a legal right to legislate for DP. That can't be disputed. Does it have the moral right? That's the real question. If it doesn't, that still doesnt make DP unlawful. It simply makes it an immoral law. There are many examples of laws which people (depending on their views) would consider immoral. Indeed, I am guilty as charged ie I am trying to steer the debate.
I do not call murder "a mistake".
Your point re Murder has to be unlawful. If a killing is sanctioned by the law then it is not murder is well taken but in the eyes of the (in my opinion) civilised world including the whole of the Europian Union, it is unlawful, but I agree, in the US it is legal so shouldn't, strictly speaking, be called judicial murder----but I will likely still use the term.
The State has a legal right to legislate for DP.
It does if you agree morality doesn't come into it. By the same argument Germany had the legal right to make its Nazi laws. I claim the USA does not have the moral right because the DP is immoral, just like Nazi laws concerning Jews, gypsies and homsexuals were immoral.

Keltria

04-20-2005, 07:20 AM

I personally would like to thank those who are keeping this debate a debate and keeping it clean and are not disrespecting those who have loved ones on DR. We had a few probelms in the begining but that seems to have blown over. It is nice to see that anti and pro DP people can debate and rip each other pieces.

Schmusi34

04-20-2005, 07:23 AM

Your argument is not making a lot of sense. If we have no morals then rehabilitating people is not necessary. We have no morals... therefore nobody can do wrong.

And that is not what I'm saying.. I'm saying why quit now when we could work towards a point in time where we can be sure of guilt and punish the right people. Simply because there is a chance to make errors now does not mean we should abandon civilization.
Maby you should read it again, along with my other postings. Find me one person who has NEVER done anything wrong in his intire life. I bet you can't. If you look and compare the countries with and without DR you should see which one works better. It is very clearly the countries who offer rehabilitation rather than "legal killing". If the death penalty would work, America for example, should be crime free. Actually, Texas should be the cleanest state of America.

Retired-26

04-20-2005, 10:00 AM

kipwrecked

04-20-2005, 10:06 AM

Maby you should read it again, along with my other postings. Find me one person who has NEVER done anything wrong in his intire life. I bet you can't. If you look and compare the countries with and without DR you should see which one works better. It is very clearly the countries who offer rehabilitation rather than "legal killing". If the death penalty would work, America for example, should be crime free. Actually, Texas should be the cleanest state of America.
You've misunderstood me somewhere along the line. I have not said there are completely innocent people. In fact if you had bothered to read my posts you would see that I have repeatedly said people are entitled to make mistakes and learn and grow, and you would also know that I'm opposed to the death penalty. My opinion is irrelevant anyway I'm simply trying to express as many point of views as possible. This is a debate.

As for countrys without the death penalty having less crime.. countrys with bloodier history have less crimes, countrys with more people have less crime, countries with looser gun laws have less crime. I suggest you research whether or not the death penalty has been a result of crime, or whether it is responsible for the crime rate.

Keltria

04-20-2005, 04:19 PM

You know I dunno so much about this less crime thing. I am am totally against the DP, but here in SA we have so much crime and murder. We have some of the highest in the world. Here people get sentenced to life which is about 30 years. Bail on murder is about R3000.00 - about $500.00 if you take it at R6.00 to the $1.00. Fraud or theft is about R10000.00 - so go figure. I am not saying we would have less crime if the DP were re-instated, but to be honest I dont think the the DP deters either way.

lightkeeper

04-20-2005, 07:29 PM

The following is not meant to offend anyone, nor does it mean that I am pro-DP. I'm simply addressing a line of argument by titantoo.

It does if you agree morality doesn't come into it. By the same argument Germany had the legal right to make its Nazi laws. I claim the USA does not have the moral right because the DP is immoral, just like Nazi laws concerning Jews, gypsies and homsexuals were immoral.
I understand where you're coming from. But I strongly disagree because....

Nazi laws ordering the extermination of Jews were ultimately held not to be valid laws (but straight-out crimes) not because they're immoral. Immorality is not enough to say that a law is not a law. Nazi extermination of Jews and Gypsies was genocide. It was a crime against HUMANITY. It was mass destruction of people because of their race and nothing else. It's a little different for homosexuals but that's really a tangent and I won't go there. The entire world (both on the individual and sate level) agrees that these Nazi "laws" were unlawful and constituted a crime against humanity.

I stand to be corrected but I think Nazi laws were not passed by a democratically elected legislature; they were enacted by a dictatorship after a coup.

International law and the laws of many countries have criminalised (retrospectively) the Nazi extermination of Jews. There is NO INTERNATIONAL LAW and NO LOCAL law anywhere that criminalises DP. An executioner from the USA who goes on a holiday to Europe or Australia will not be arrested and tried for murder. The wrongfulness of Nazi extermination is basically beyond any dispute. You can't even debate it. It's is such a plane and obvious wrong that retrospective legislation has been enacted to cover it. And that really does say a lot.

The European Union has abolished DP. So has Australia. However, neither EU nor AU claim that DP is unlawful. Both EU and AU will assist governments of countries where DP is part of law in apprehending and bringing to justice offenders, even though they may face DP (eg, the Bali 9 recently - and we're talking DP for drug smuggling!, hunt for Usama Bin Ladin, many other examples). They WOULD NOT have assisted Nazi Germany in seeking out Jews to destroy them. Both EU and AU recognise that while they themselves don't want DP as part of their laws, DP is a legal and lawful sanction in countries that choose to enact and impose it.

The comparison (on moral grounds of all things!) between executing a remorseless mass murderer and destroying 5 million people (including infants) en masse because of their race is in my opinion not only flawed but also scary.

Note: this does not mean I'm Pro-DP.

lightkeeper

04-20-2005, 07:45 PM

Note: I don't intend to offend anyone. I'm simply addressing some points in the argument.

If you look and compare the countries with and without DR you should see which one works better. It is very clearly the countries who offer rehabilitation rather than "legal killing".

Sure, DP should only be limited to cases where rehabilitation is not an option. For offenders who have no prospects for rehabilitation and in situations where the offending is so grave that the society's need for deterence and condine punishment simply outweighs any benefits of rehabilitating the individual (mass murder, extremist terrorism).

If the death penalty would work, America for example, should be crime free. Actually, Texas should be the cleanest state of America.

That's not correct. The correct proposition is:

If DP works as a deterrent then states and countries with DP should have a lower rate of capital crime (not crime generally) than the same states and countries would have in identical circumstances but without DP.

That's very hard to measure. For simplicity, you can measure capital crime rates in DP jurisdictions and compare them to capital crime rates in non-DP jurisdictions with very similar legal, cultural, social and economic climates. And you have to watch out for how and when DP was introduced in the DP jurisdiction and how and when DP was abolished in the non-DP jurisdiction if you're going to compare them.

Aimee1

04-20-2005, 08:16 PM

Yeah but that depends how you interpret 1 Peter 1:20-21 ;)
Also, that's an apostolic letter regarding the Bible (OLD TESTAMENT ONLY AT THAT!) and it's questionable whether it's making reference to itself as well. If not, then the letter in itself isn't coming from God but only from Peter's opinion.

Secondly, it's one thing to say that the Bible is not subject to interpretation. But the fact is that everyone understands the Bible differently.

what? OT? actually, 1 Peter is as you said, an apostolic letter meaning it is NEW TESTAMENT. Jesus came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it. the OT consisted of 2 laws: the moral law and the civil law. we are no longer under the civil law of the OT (this is the law of sin and death, which passed away with Christs's resurrection) but we are still under the moral law.

Moral law is how we honor God and how we interact with each other. THEREFORE, the OT civil law being abolished, the 'eye for an eye' and 'tooth for a tooth' no longer applies.

I am so sick and tired of people using this to justify the DP! not saying you were, but several other people on this thread have.

If you read your Bible and know the Lord and know what His Word says and means, you'd understand that the very person who injects that lethal dose of drugs into the DR inmates body, is now guilty of murder. So is the judge who ordered that the murder take place, as he conspired that persons death in his heart.

Bottomline: dont use the Bible to justify some random thought you might have, if you dont know what you're talking about. Again, not saying you specificly, but anyone that tries to say 'well the Bible says eye for an eye...'

And no, the Bible, not in any way shape or form, is open to interpretation. God means what He says and says what He means. ;)

shines

04-20-2005, 09:01 PM

Amen Aimee! You're right that I should have used the New Testament when I spoke of a higher law. I also have dificulty understanding those who try to use the Bible in support of the death penalty.

lightkeeper

04-20-2005, 09:44 PM

To everyone:

The following argument is not intended to show that the Bible can or should be used to support the Death Penalty. I believe the Bible has nothing to do with the issue. However, HubbysLilAngelBaby seeks to use the Bible against DP. She also claims that the Bible is not subject to different interpretations. I intend to prove her wrong on those points only. This does not mean I'm pro-DP.

To HubbysLilAngelBaby:

what? OT? actually, 1 Peter is as you said, an apostolic letter meaning it is NEW TESTAMENT. Jesus came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it. the OT consisted of 2 laws: the moral law and the civil law. we are no longer under the civil law of the OT (this is the law of sin and death, which passed away with Christs's resurrection) but we are still under the moral law.
1. Where in the Bible do you find the distinctions between the Civil Law and the Moral Law? Where does the Bible say that the Laws of the Old Testament do not apply anymore? Or is it just YOUR interpretation of the Bible?

2. If the laws of the Old Testament do not apply anymore, how can you rely on The 10 Commandments (your previous post)? They come from the Old Testament.

3. Peter's letter referred to "Scriptures". At the time there was no New Testament. His letter did not form part of the Scriptures. It was VOTED INTO the scriptures by The Church subsequently. His letter referred to the Old Testament only.

Moral law is how we honor God and how we interact with each other. THEREFORE, the OT civil law being abolished, the 'eye for an eye' and 'tooth for a tooth' no longer applies.

4. Again, where in the Bible, does it talk about abolishing anything from the Old Testament? Do we abolish the entire Old Testament or just bits of it? Who decide which bits?

If you read your Bible and know the Lord and know what His Word says and means.....

5. ..... then what do you do about Matthew 5:28-30?
I quote: "28 But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. 31"
[emphasis added]

(and that's New Testament)
Is The Lord telling us to mutilate ourselves? Clearly so.

6. What about Apostles 25:10? "10 But Paul said, "I am standing before Caesar's tribunal, where I ought to be tried; to the Jews I have done no wrong, as you know very well. 11 If then I am a wrongdoer, and have committed anything for which I deserve to die, I do not seek to escape death; but if there is nothing in their charges against me, no one can give me up to them. I appeal to Caesar."

St Paul concedes that DP is a lawful and appropriate measure in some circumstances. There are things, he admits, for which one may deserve to die.

, you'd understand that the very person who injects that lethal dose of ddrugs into the DR inmates body, is now guilty of murder. So is the judge who ordered that the murder take place, as he conspired that persons death in his heart.

And where do you get that from? When did Jesus ever condemn DP? When on cross, he refused to save himself and the other two guys hanging next to him. Even the guy who was repenting.... all he got was "This day you'll be with me in Heaven". Jesus never took issue with the Law of the Land. Indeed, he said "Give to Caesar what's Caesar's and to the Lord what's His"

Bottomline: dont use the Bible to justify some random thought you might have, if you dont know what you're talking about.
I agree. But you're the one trying to use the Bible against DP. And we can discuss moral issues and deterrence but the Bible simply doesn't address the issue.

kipwrecked

04-20-2005, 09:50 PM

And no, the Bible, not in any way shape or form, is open to interpretation. God means what He says and says what He means. ;)
Yes - and you are more qualified than any to tell us exactly what it means.

You have no idea what a mouthful you said with says what he means and means what he says. You may as well say I see what I eat is the same as I eat what I see. Or I breathe when I sleep and I sleep when I breathe. God may say exactly what he means, but it doesn't mean that it is universally understood in the same way.

This conversation has gotten off track - can we leave the bible alone now please. This thread is for debating the death penalty, not the bible.

Schmusi34

04-21-2005, 12:26 AM

I suggest you research whether or not the death penalty has been a result of crime, or whether it is responsible for the crime rate.
I have.. don't worry about that..

lightkeeper

04-21-2005, 12:34 AM

I have.. don't worry about that..
(referring to having done research whether or not death penalty in DP jurisdictions has been a result of high crime rate, or whether it is responsible for the crime rate.)

It would be helpful if you could share some more details with us :)

kipwrecked

04-21-2005, 12:37 AM

I suggest you research whether or not the death penalty has been a result of crime, or whether it is responsible for the crime rate.
I have.. don't worry about that..
Excellent :)
What examples can you point me to - I'd really love to take a look. All I can do is speculate at the moment, it'll be nice to get some cold hard facts.

Aimee1

04-21-2005, 01:11 AM

1. Where in the Bible do you find the distinctions between the Civil Law and the Moral Law? Where does the Bible say that the Laws of the Old Testament do not apply anymore? Or is it just YOUR interpretation of the Bible?
to clarify, it is all throughout the Levitical law (thats the book of Leviticus;)).
And I never said the laws of the OT do not apply anymore, in fact I was saying that portions of them DO apply!
2. If the laws of the Old Testament do not apply anymore, how can you rely on The 10 Commandments (your previous post)? They come from the Old Testament.
4. Again, where in the Bible, does it talk about abolishing anything from the Old Testament? Do we abolish the entire Old Testament or just bits of it? Who decide which bits?

hello, going back to my previous statement, I originally stated that moral applies still but the blood of Christ has abolished the civil law. This is made clear by the fact that we no longer offer animal scarafices on the altar, and we no longer send the priest into the tabernacle once a year to make atonement for our sins. if we did, we would be under the CIVIL (Levitical)law.
Moral law are the rules such as do not lay with your sister, mother, etc. just to give you an example.
6. What about Apostles 25:10?

I'm sorry but there is no book in the Bible called 'Apostles'. Are you referring to Acts? :rolleyes:

Please do not ever quote me and twist my words. YES a debate over the Bible could go on endlessly, and that is NOT what this thread was about.

HOWEVER, by the time I jumped in this thread, MANY people had been quoting this and that from the Bible and NO I am not trying to say I am 'more qualified' to tell you all about it.

I was NOT the first one to start bringing the Bible in to this thread, I simply added my opinion/thoughts on that aspect of the conversation. EXCUSE ME, I obviously am not welcome to do such a thing! Whoever started this thread should have known that a topic such as the DP would obviously be debated from a religious standpoint as well as political and emotional.

And yeah, thanks for posting in big bold red letters that you intend to prove me wrong. Whatever, you do what you want and believe what you want, but I'll tell you that when someone starts a thread on PTO with the word 'debate' in the title, they are gonna get a debate!

I am not interested in challenging scriptures with you, or anyone else, but I will defend myself when you try to make me look foolish.

So, thanks for making it clear that my opinions and arguments are not welcome in this 'DEBATE' thread, although it IS open for public access on the world wide web, and you are going to naturally get all kinds of responses and feedback from various opinions on the matter.

That being said, I never posted in this thread to start some big religious debate! I simply posted my own thoughts in reference to previous posts on the subject. I will however post to defend myself when someone starts quoting me and ripping my words apart and trying to make me look stupid. I'm not stupid and I'm not an expert either, but I thought I was welcome to share my thoughts. thanks for making it clear that I'm not. God bless.

Aimee1

04-21-2005, 01:15 AM

This conversation has gotten off track - can we leave the bible alone now please. This thread is for debating the death penalty, not the bible.

sure let's do that- and in the future, please understand that a topic of this magnitude will always include opinions from a religious standpoint, and the person who sparks the debate needs to be prepared for that.

And just for the record: I never once stated that I am against the DP. I simply offered insight into the same scriptures that everyone seems to jump on to support it.

I don't want this thread to be closed just because a few of us are going back and forth about the Bible. Have fun with the rest of your 'debate'.

kipwrecked

04-21-2005, 01:39 AM

I want to apologise up front for the irrelevance of this post towards the death penalty debate - but it needs to be said.

sure let's do that- and in the future, please understand that a topic of this magnitude will always include opinions from a religious standpoint, and the person who sparks the debate needs to be prepared for that.

And just for the record: I never once stated that I am against the DP. I simply offered insight into the same scriptures that everyone seems to jump on to support it.

I don't want this thread to be closed just because a few of us are going back and forth about the Bible. For that reason, I'm not going to be posting in this thread anymore, as my words are always twisted and its very obvious that my opinion on the matter isnt valued. Have fun with the rest of your 'debate'.
Firstly - I don't appreciate your vicious tone.

Secondly, I have stated numerous reasons why we shouldn't be using the bible to support either side of this debate. However, even if people are to make references, nobody has completely derailed this debate into a bible discourse such as yourself. You are entitled to your opinion, but I suggest if you wish to solely debate the bible in relation to the DP you start a new thread. References are ok - but when you're posting and it has nothing to do with the death penalty I can't see why you're debating onthis thread.

Finally - you are entitled to debate your point of view on this thread regarding the death penalty, in fact it is encouraged. Nobody has twisted your words, merely tried to understand your point of view and DEBATE IT.

This is meant to be a friendly debate. The purpose is to discuss the death penalty. Everybody is welcome. Can we please keep it loosely on topic.

Thanks :)

kipwrecked

04-21-2005, 01:48 AM

Please do not ever quote me and twist my words. YES a debate over the Bible could go on endlessly, and that is NOT what this thread was about.

HOWEVER, by the time I jumped in this thread, MANY people had been quoting this and that from the Bible and NO I am not trying to say I am 'more qualified' to tell you all about it.

I was NOT the first one to start bringing the Bible in to this thread, I simply added my opinion/thoughts on that aspect of the conversation. EXCUSE ME, I obviously am not welcome to do such a thing! Whoever started this thread should have known that a topic such as the DP would obviously be debated from a religious standpoint as well as political and emotional.

And yeah, thanks for posting in big bold red letters that you intend to prove me wrong. Whatever, you do what you want and believe what you want, but I'll tell you that when someone starts a thread on PTO with the word 'debate' in the title, they are gonna get a debate!

I am not interested in challenging scriptures with you, or anyone else, but I will defend myself when you try to make me look foolish.

So, thanks for making it clear that my opinions and arguments are not welcome in this 'DEBATE' thread, although it IS open for public access on the world wide web, and you are going to naturally get all kinds of responses and feedback from various opinions on the matter.

That being said, I never posted in this thread to start some big religious debate! I simply posted my own thoughts in reference to previous posts on the subject. I will however post to defend myself when someone starts quoting me and ripping my words apart and trying to make me look stupid. I'm not stupid and I'm not an expert either, but I thought I was welcome to share my thoughts. thanks for making it clear that I'm not. God bless.
Do you suppose its unreasonable to ask that when you wish to start an argument or make a complaint you do so in a PM? This thread is meant to be a civil debate about the death penalty. I'm sorry that you're offended that I don't want to debate the bible - perhaps you could find a religious msg board. All I want is for the topic to remaind civil and on topic.

Thankyou to everybody who has kept the discussion about the death penalty going and provided some good arguments in a civil manner. This is all I will say about this here - I have no wish to continue a vicious argument on a msg board designed for something else.

:D Thanks everyone :D

Aimee1

04-21-2005, 01:56 AM

I want to apologise up front for the irrelevance of this post towards the death penalty debate - but it needs to be said.

Firstly - I don't appreciate your vicious tone.

Secondly, nobody has completely derailed this debate into a bible discourse such as yourself.

hello again, just couldnt stay away. ;) The only reason it got so far off topic is that I said 'hmm I have to disagree about the interpretations issue' and I quoted a verse to that effect. I got a response about a page long, quoting this and that and saying 'well what do you say about this then' and 'how do you justify that?' with various quotes and such.

I'm not the one that came across viciously, and I'm not the one that started a debate.

I defended myself when it got so far off topic that someone sarcastically said 'and you're more qualified than any of us on the Bible'.

So, I have to disagree that I am the only one who completely derailed this debate into a bible discourse.

you'd defend yourself too, if it came to that. Now, as for the DP, yes lets get back to that.

Aimee1

04-21-2005, 02:10 AM

Do you suppose its unreasonable to ask that when you wish to start an argument or make a complaint you do so in a PM? This thread is meant to be a civil debate about the death penalty.

Funny, I felt the exact same way, when I was responded to with a page long reply in which LightKeeper quoted me and further spiralled this discussion into a Bible debate. A PM would have been nice, but instead he quoted me about 5 or 6 times and gave me his two cents about all I had written. :( Perhaps you should ask HIM about the appropriateness of a PM? :idea:

I'm sorry that you're offended that I don't want to debate the bible - perhaps you could find a religious msg board.

and yes, if you would read my posts, I WAS NOT THE ONE WHO SAID 'LETS DEBATE!' I SIMPLY DEFENDED MYSELF WHEN CERTAIN PEOPLE CAME BACK AT ME IN A RUDE MANNER AND TWISTED MY WORDS. :mad:

My husband has been in prison almost 17 years and I joined PTO almost a year ago to find support and love and understanding. I am not an argumentative person, but I do get pretty heated when people set out to make me look stupid, by quoting me and stating in big bold red letters that 'they intend to prove me wrong'. So much for a 'friendly' debate, huh? :mad:

Please, let this be the last post on this issue. I will always defend myself when someone rude comes along and takes my simple post to the extreme.

I stated before that I dont want this thread closed because of previous posts, although they were valid to the topic, until they got way out of hand.

I really am a nice person, and I'm interested in a friendly debate, but not when it gets so off to the wayside that people are attacking one another's words. I won't go any further on this topic of you and LightKeeper won't, lol. :grouphug:

lightkeeper

04-21-2005, 02:18 AM

HubbysLilAngelBaby,

Firstly, I'm sorry if you thought I was trying to discredit you. I wasn't. You disagreed with me that the Bible is subject to interpretation and I took issue with that and showed you passages to back up my argument.

I disagreed with you that the Bible is anti-DP and again showed you passages to back it up.

This IS a debate. Your point of view is VERY WELCOME. And we're all entiteld to disagree with it or seek clarification. I wasn't trying to make you look foolish. You were replying to a previous post. Well, I replied to yours! Nothing in what I said was offensive.

If you think the Bible is relevant to the issue, I respect that. But please don't tell me not to express my own point of view or not to question yours.

Aimee1

04-21-2005, 02:24 AM

HubbysLilAngelBaby,

Firstly, I'm sorry if you thought I was trying to discredit you. I wasn't.

Thanks for your kind and respectful words. I appreciate it. I felt attacked and was defending myself. :grouphug:

Now, back on topic, what's your take on the DP? haha, just kidding. :haha:

Keltria

04-21-2005, 02:34 AM

Please play nicely with each other - I see that a few tempers are starting flare here.

kipwrecked

04-21-2005, 04:45 AM

Please play nicely with each other - I see that a few tempers are starting flare here.
Look - I've got to agree with this. This is a debate topic about the DP. Everyone is more than entitled to express their views. I really resent the conversation being derailed - I ask that we can all have such unrelated discussions in PM please. I'm not going to go into the argument here - I've had enough. Can we please show each other the simple courtesy of keeping this debate to the Death Penalty, and continue the calm civilized discussion without subjecting this thread to closure by silly outbursts better suited for private messaging. We're all adults here. :) :)

Ok - now for a blast from the past I'd like to address a few points

To be honest I do not agree with the death penalty, or the eye for an eye or reffering to the bible when someone is executed. I do not agree that lethal injection is not cruel and unusual and I also do not agree that people cant have contact visits with DR inmates. Wow i dont agree with a lot of stuff do I?
The phrase eye for an eye has been absolutely flung about in regards to the Death penalty, and I'm not sure its quite accurate. If it was truly one eye for one eye - then the Death Penalty would send out the message that a mass murderers life is worth thousands. Relating to amnesty internationals view on the case, all peoples lives are equally valuable regardless of what they may have or may have not done. If this is so then the Death Penalty sends a very different message than eye for an eye, its putting serious offenders up in neon light to be worshipped! (no im not dramatic.. you are)

As for cruel and unusual punishment I'm torn on this - I've seen some material relaying that there is insufficient anaesthesia. But if you go to hospital for any number of surgeries there is a decent amount of pain involved in any procedure. Perhaps somebody could direct me to more information as to what happens exactly and what pain and suffering is involved in lethal injection.

Thanks :)

Rachel

04-21-2005, 05:05 AM

As for cruel and unusual punishment I'm torn on this - I've seen some material relaying that there is insufficient anaesthesia. But if you go to hospital for any number of surgeries there is a decent amount of pain involved in any procedure. Perhaps somebody could direct me to more information as to what happens exactly and what pain and suffering is involved in lethal injection.

Thanks :) This may be a good place to start.

http://health.dailynewscentral.net/content/view/633/31/
(Hope it is OK to post this link?)

There is a full report on The Lancet's site but at the moment you can't register to read it! Sorry!

kipwrecked

04-21-2005, 06:04 AM

This may be a good place to start.

http://health.dailynewscentral.net/content/view/633/31/
(Hope it is OK to post this link?)

There is a full report on The Lancet's site but at the moment you can't register to read it! Sorry!
Cheers Dahl,

A person who received no or insufficient anesthesia would experience suffocation and excruciating pain while being unable to move. Anasthesia during lethal injection is essential, say the authors, to minimize suffering and preserve public opinion that lethal injection is a near-painless death.

Lack of Training, Record Keeping

Leonidas Koniaris of the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine and colleagues analyzed information from Texas and Virginia, where approximately 45% of US executions are carried out.

Among their findings:

Executioners -- typically one to three emergency medical technicians or medical corpsmen -- often had no training in anesthesia;Ok this isnt the full story but I just want to touch on these points. Hopefully without going off into specified discussion about execution methods, or sparking one!

I dont necessarily believe that, because if not properly anaesthetised, lethal injection would constitute as cruel and unusual punishment. Yes. it causes copious amounts of pain and suffering however it is absolutely not intended. Otherwise it wouldn't be anaesthetised at all, why spend the money! MOST operations that are designed to do good are painful and sometimes the same ill effects can be experienced as to paralysis and pain due to improper anaesthesia. This kind of folly I don't believe is intended - however if lethal injection continues without independant anaesthetists on hand then I would absolutely agree this is cruel and unusual punishment. If lethal injections are to continue closer examination of the patient needs to be in place, just as it would be with any other medical procedure.

Therefore I dont believe its cruel and unusual and therefore still lawful. Any thoughts?

lightkeeper

04-21-2005, 09:47 PM

Therefore I dont believe its cruel and unusual and therefore still lawful. Any thoughts?
I would think that if it involves any real risk of being painful then it's cruel and unusual. But I agree that better monitoring and supervision might solve the problem (ensuring that each particular case involves proper anasthetic)

callen202

04-21-2005, 10:46 PM

My view on the death penalty is that a person who truly expresses remorse and changes his actions should be allowed a second chance since he no longer becomes a threat to society. The problem comes in for the individuals who do not change and have no remorse at all for there crime and would continue to be a threat to society. That is where I agree with the bible teachings that the death penalty is applicable to the degree of the crime such as murder.

bsteph

04-21-2005, 11:52 PM

kipwrecked

04-22-2005, 07:39 PM

I rarely cry. When I read this morning that Jessica Lunsford was buried alive and suffocated I sobbed. Her pain is over, but her family will live with that pain forever. When I think about the pain and terror that the little innocent child endured I get tears in my eyes. I get so confused about the death penalty being "right or wrong"; an eye-for-an-eye or live on death row and re-live your crime until you die? I don't know the answer to that debate, but the one question that keeps repeating in my mind is why should that evil man be allowed to live?
I don't think the view on the death penalty is that it is eye for an eye. As I've said before it doesn't really come close to being even. And it shouldn't be about getting even. But removing a threat from society. As for reliving your crime until you die,that sort of falls under the revenge thing again. And what about those who are truly evil and don't feel any remorse at all? Then we're just sparing their lives for nothing. Saying 'if you do bad things we'll put you in an isolated room with a tv and clothing and a bed and food for the rest of your life - and please- don't worry about the bill'

Rachel

04-22-2005, 08:03 PM

Saying 'if you do bad things we'll put you in an isolated room with a tv and clothing and a bed and food for the rest of your life - and please- don't worry about the bill'
Dear Kipwrecked,
Can I respectfully ask that you do some research into death row living conditions in the US?
Thanks,
Rachel x

samsfi

04-22-2005, 08:52 PM

Well to quote Amnesty of which I am a long standing member- I believe the following:

Don't Kill for me
The Death penalty is racist
is not a deterrent
it targets the poor
it costs more than a life sentence
it does not restore victims
it teaches violence
it is a human rights abuse
Abolish it

I support it for no reason...I am not saying that everyone belongs in our society- but for me the death penalty is not an answer- I am agnostic- my opinion is not based on any religious dogma. To me an 'eye for an eye' does not equal justice- not even for Osama

kipwrecked

04-23-2005, 02:45 AM

I would think that if it involves any real risk of being painful then it's cruel and unusual. But I agree that better monitoring and supervision might solve the problem (ensuring that each particular case involves proper anasthetic)
so you think surgery would be cruel and unusual punishment too.

kipwrecked

04-23-2005, 02:47 AM

Dear Kipwrecked,
Can I respectfully ask that you do some research into death row living conditions in the US?
Thanks,
Rachel x
Rachel, I was actually referring to life imprisonment conditions, and being overexaggerated to emphasize my point.

kipwrecked

04-23-2005, 02:51 AM

I support it for no reason...I am not saying that everyone belongs in our society- but for me the death penalty is not an answer- I am agnostic- my opinion is not based on any religious dogma. To me an 'eye for an eye' does not equal justice- not even for Osama
Killing Usama would not be an eye for an eye. It would be an eye for thousands of eyes, and a possible couple of thousand more. I'm getting sick of this eye for an eye being flung around. What about the statement about letting people rott in a cell for the rest of their lives to relive their crimes? Thats eye for an eye. Since when is justice about revenge anyway. If we all adopted that attitude things would be a lot worse. Somebody has to be the bigger person somewhere along the line.

lightkeeper

04-23-2005, 04:46 AM

so you think surgery would be cruel and unusual punishment too.

Surgery is elective. You consent to having surgery done. It's not punishment because it's not imposed on you without your consent and because it's not done as a sanction for an offence. Cutting off someone's leg would be cruel and unusual. And yet people have it done through surgery (where necessary for health or survival). More extremely...... whipping would be considered cruel and unusual. But again, this doesn't apply to S&M enthusiasts.

kipwrecked

04-23-2005, 05:58 AM

Surgery is elective. You consent to having surgery done. It's not punishment because it's not imposed on you without your consent and because it's not done as a sanction for an offence. Cutting off someone's leg would be cruel and unusual. And yet people have it done through surgery (where necessary for health or survival). More extremely...... whipping would be considered cruel and unusual. But again, this doesn't apply to S&M enthusiasts.
Breaking the law is elective. By living in a society with certain laws and punishments you agree to face certain consequences should you break the law. It is not imposed, rather agreed to by you like a contract. You trade off the right to break laws by accepting consequences. Pain and suffering as part of the death penalty is not agreed to. Or in any punishment in the US. If it is purely accidental then it could not be cruel and unusual punishment, unless the procedure is continued without sufficient supervision and anaesthesia. It is just unfortunate, as it would be if you had a surgery and experienced similar problems (as is quite common). The intent of lethal injection was that it is (supposedly) a humane and relatively painless way to end ones life. It is not pureposefully painful, and therefore couldn't be constrewn as cruel and unusual punishment. If they continue purposefully knowing the outcomes as is, then it would definitely enter the arena of cruel and unusual punishment.

sociologist

04-23-2005, 06:06 AM

Jorlanda

04-23-2005, 06:37 AM

kipwrecked

04-23-2005, 09:29 AM

Ashtynn, I agree with you. No parent raises a child to be a criminal in the first place (I'm a criminologist for goodness sake and my son's in prison!).

The death penalty is wrong on so many levels. First, it was supposed to serve as a warning to people that if they committed a particular crime, they could be out to death. This has not deterred people from committing crimes that warrant the DP.

Second, some argue that the idea of retribution starts in the Bible and we should live according to those words. If people really read the Bible, doesn't it say somewhere that killing is wrong? Just because the state is sanctioning the killing by imposing the DP, it doen't make it right.

Third, people forget, everyone is someone's child, brother, father, husband, etc. Just because they have (allegedly) done something that the State says warrants the DP (such as murder), iomposing such a penalty will not bring their loved one back.

I teach criminal justice and just had this argument in my class about DP issues. From a statistical standpoint, it costs between $5-%10 million to put someone to death versus approximately $2 million to incarcerate them for life. If States keep crying about money problems as they continually do, it is more cost effective for them to incarcerate someone for life.

TOTALLY 100% AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES!!
You raise some very good points. (but oh no more bible references! that deserves a thread unto its own.. before we get any responses about that). People do forget that everyone is someone's child, brother, father, husband, etc.. so how can we allow murderers to live? If they do understand the lives they affect then they are dangerous if they can still carry out such acts. If they don't understand they are still dangerous. Imposing a death penalty wont bring back a loved one, but neither will putting the offender in jail, or letting them loose on the street. Perhaps at this point its merely managing the destruction to try and stop the problem continuing.

Arguing the right or wrong of the death penalty based on monetary value probably isn't the best thing - but if the government is whinging about costs its a very good point! It also makes me wonder where the money is being spent if they cannot ensure the procedure is done with proper anaesthesia and supervision!!

Did any of your class have interesting or unique views on this topic?

lightkeeper

04-23-2005, 09:47 AM

Breaking the law is elective. By living in a society with certain laws and punishments you agree to face certain consequences should you break the law. It is not imposed, rather agreed to by you like a contract. You trade off the right to break laws by accepting consequences. Pain and suffering as part of the death penalty is not agreed to. Or in any punishment in the US. If it is purely accidental then it could not be cruel and unusual punishment, unless the procedure is continued without sufficient supervision and anaesthesia. It is just unfortunate, as it would be if you had a surgery and experienced similar problems (as is quite common). The intent of lethal injection was that it is (supposedly) a humane and relatively painless way to end ones life. It is not pureposefully painful, and therefore couldn't be constrewn as cruel and unusual punishment. If they continue purposefully knowing the outcomes as is, then it would definitely enter the arena of cruel and unusual punishment.
I really don't think living in a particular society is necessarily a matter of choice. Sure, it would be nice to be able to move to a country where bank robbery is legal (given the way banks rob us, one might argue bank robbery is actually morally justified!) but good luck trying to find such a place. And even then not everyone can actually move to another country. It can cost a lot of money, you have to satisfy immigration requirements etc.

Whether a punishment is cruel and unusual doesn't really depend on the intention, does it?

kipwrecked

04-23-2005, 09:48 AM

Someone did ask for statistic about how the DP can affect the murder rates in states with or without the DP. I found this one. Maybe it helps.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=168
Ok. The article sayyyyyyys...

In the past ten years, the number of executions in the U.S. has increased while the murder rate has declined. Some commentators have maintained that the murder rate has dropped because of the increase in executions (see, e.g., W. Tucker, "Yes, the Death Penalty Deters," Wall St. Journal, June 21, 2002). However, during this decade the murder rate in non-death penalty states has remained consistently lower than the rate in states with the death penalty.

What this says is that the murder rates remained lower in states without the death penalty. But it also says the the murder rate decreased in the states with the death penalty. This doesn't mean that the death penalty works. Or doesn't work. It only states percentages. The things we need to know are crime rates before the death penalty was imposed, and whether the death penalty was instated because of high crime, whether the crime rate drops after the death penalty is imposed, and the comparison of crime rates in similar social situations in places without the death penalty.

ie. State#1 doesnt have the death penalty. There are 25 murders a year. Over the last 10 years it has reduced to 18 murders a year.
State#2 has the death penalty. There are 30 murders a year. Over the last ten years it has reduced to 23 murders a year. The reduction is the same. In this case I'd say the death penalty doesn't work.. all things being equal.
State#3 doesn't havethe death penalty. There are 40 murders a year. They impose the death penalty. It reduces to 32 murders a year. The reduction is greater... This is just a scenario. We need real statistics from worldwide cases and similar social situations to determine whether or not the death penalty 'works'. So far I haven't seen anything like this.

Although I'm inclined to believe that the differences in murder and serious crime rates between different countrys and states has more to do with social situations than the proposed punishments. I mean just imagine a country of Jerry Springer guests. And a country of Oprah Winfrey guests. Even if they had the exact same laws I don't believe they would be quite the same.

kipwrecked

04-23-2005, 09:55 AM

I really don't think living in a particular society is necessarily a matter of choice. Sure, it would be nice to be able to move to a country where bank robbery is legal (given the way banks rob us, one might argue bank robbery is actually morally justified!) but good luck trying to find such a place. And even then not everyone can actually move to another country. It can cost a lot of money, you have to satisfy immigration requirements etc.

Whether a punishment is cruel and unusual doesn't really depend on the intention, does it?
What are refugees I wonder?And besides.. America is the land of opportunity isntit? I'm sure if youtried hard enough you could find a way to leave.. or maybe it's designed like a Marks and Spencers store where you go up an escalator and have to go through a maze and down a big flight to stairs to get out.. certainly encourages more shopping - or at least a stop in the cafe. Anyway I digress.

Maybe it doesn't depend on the intention - but surely you can't be administering a cruel and unusual punishment if you're totally oblivious to it and have even taken actions to prevent it from being a cruel and unusual punishment. If they had been even remotely aware it was cruel and unusual they could have forgotten about the anaesthetic anyway. That stuff isn't cheap you know - and I hear the government complains about costs. I wouldn't want my Scrooge McDuck-like sallary to be effected by the death sentence either.

lightkeeper

04-23-2005, 10:11 AM

What are refugees I wonder?And besides.. America is the land of opportunity isntit? I'm sure if youtried hard enough you could find a way to leave.. or maybe it's designed like a Marks and Spencers store where you go up an escalator and have to go through a maze and down a big flight to stairs to get out.. certainly encourages more shopping - or at least a stop in the cafe. Anyway I digress.

Maybe it doesn't depend on the intention - but surely you can't be administering a cruel and unusual punishment if you're totally oblivious to it and have even taken actions to prevent it from being a cruel and unusual punishment. If they had been even remotely aware it was cruel and unusual they could have forgotten about the anaesthetic anyway. That stuff isn't cheap you know - and I hear the government complains about costs. I wouldn't want my Scrooge McDuck-like sallary to be effected by the death sentence either.
Find a way to leave? Find a country with no criminal law? errrr......

Cruel and unusual is a matter of objective fact. It doesnt' matter if the executioner knows that what they're doing is painful.

kipwrecked

04-23-2005, 10:25 AM

Find a way to leave? Find a country with no criminal law? errrr......

Cruel and unusual is a matter of objective fact. It doesnt' matter if the executioner knows that what they're doing is painful.
Not suggesting you find a country with no criminal law.. just saying especially, if you were in an American state with the death penalty, its notimpossible to move to a state without it.

There has to be some kind of knowledge of cruel and unusual punishment. If it turns out in 20 years that prison has some grave effect(no pun intended) on emotional wellbeing and it is deemed cruel and unusual punishment.. would that make every person whos ever been jailed victims of cruel and unusual punishment?
Subquestion - what happens if someone is sentenced to prison and they suffer chlaustrophobia?

lightkeeper

04-23-2005, 11:54 AM

Someone did ask for statistic about how the DP can affect the murder rates in states with or without the DP. I found this one. Maybe it helps.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=168Interesting statistics. Thanks for finding this, Jorlanda. But we all know how it is with statistics.

If you read on, you will see that these statistics do not indicate that DP leads to a higher murder-rate. You will also see that non-DP states with significant population and population density and containing large cities are actually HIGHER in their murder rates than DP states (particularly NY and Kansas but feel free to research others and you'll find a similar trend). And you will see that introducing DP has decreased murder rates in New York.

Here we go folks....

First of all, let me show you some other statistics. These are from the Disaster Centre. Unlike DPIC, this is a non-biased, factual site.

The article above mentions the fact that New York has introduced DP in 1995 and Kansas in 1994. It makes a big point of the fact that since 1995, the gap between DP-state murder rates and non-DP state murder rates has increased. It effectively implies that the introduction of DP in NY and Kansas has had an anti-deterrent effect. This is plainly incorrect. Here's why.

Crime statistics for New York can be found at:

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm

Looking at that chart, you will see that all crime in New York decreased since 1995. However, that decrease was larger for murder than it was for most other crimes. Coincidentally (or is it?), 1995 was the year NY re-enacted the Death Penalty. Between 1994 and 2000 murder rates in NY fell by 53%, that's more than half. This is a higher fall than the average for non-DP states (46% according to the link pasted by Jorlanda).

In Kansas, on the other hand, murder rates did not change at all since 1994.
( http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/kncrime.htm )

However, it would seem that in 1994, Kansas murder rates were already lower than those in most other states (certainly much lower than in NY, whose murder rate was huge in 1994). In fact, the Kansas rate of murder (6.3) is lower than that of Michingan (a non-DP state - 6.7 now and 9.8 in 1994).

It should be also pointed out that violent crime did not rise in Kansas since it introduced DP in 1994. It fell. And it fell by as much as it did in any other state (DP AND non-DP). Same goes for New York. This would seem to contradict any theory that DP causes a rise in violent crime.

And what about these lower murder rates in non-DP states anyway?

Note that non-DP states are

Alaska
Hawaii
Iowa
Maine
Massachusetts
Michigan
Minnesota
North Dakota
Rhode Island
Vermont
West Virginia
Wisconsin

ALSO
- Dist. of Columbia

The significantly high-population-density ones in that list are Washington D.C. and Michigan. Both of these have higher murder rates than any DP states you can think of, with D.C. having an enormous rate of 41.8 murders per 100,000 people. Compare this to New York which only has 5 murders per 100,000 people and has DP.

Now, as for Jorlanda's link....what do these stats really say?

Chart 1 shows that, amongst the States that didn't change their position on DP during the decade, the difference in murder rates between DP states and non-DP states has remained basically constant. In other words, Chart 1 alone tells us nothing.

Between 1990 and 1994 the number of executions per year in the USA has been roughly constant as well. The jump in 1994 and 1995 and onwards can probably be attributed to the introduction of DP in Kansas and New York in 1994 and 1995.

Chart 2 shows us the difference in murder rates between DP states and non-DP states, INCLUDING Kansas and NY. Until 1994 and 1995, Kansas and NY were non-DP states. Thus, their murder rates formed part of the non-DP murder rates. Since 1994 and 1995, these two states have been DP states. Thus, their murder rates have since then formed part of the DP states murder rates. The jump in the gap in the murder rate between DP and non-DP states begins in 1994, becomes material in 1995 and becomes huge in 1996. This jump is in my view a result of these two states becoming part of the DP statistic and leaving the non-DP statistic. Basically what we have is 2 states (one with very high murder rates at the time - NY) joining the ranks of DP states. . This also accounts for the higher number of executions.

Chart 3 shows that since 1994 and until 2000, murder rates in both DP and non-DP states had been consistently falling. This fall started about the same time as NY and KA introduced DP. We already know from my links above, that murder rates in NY decreased dramatically while those in Kansas remained basically the same. Thus, either the increase in gap is attribuable to the steady rate in Kansas or it's not related to DP at all.

Conclusion

1994-2000 saw a dramatic drop in all crime across the USA. The introduction of DP in NY saw a disproportionate drop in murder in that State. The introduction of DP in Kansas did not affect the murder rate in Kansas.

More research would need to be done. The increase in the gap is almost definitely not-DP-related! It would be interesting to see what measures non-DP states took in 1994 and 1995 in relation to murder. For example, it could be that a large non-DP state has greatly increased its penalties for murder, for example by imposing no-parole life sentences, then this would account for the gap. Note that there are only 12 states without DP. Thus, any large one of those states would make a measurable difference.

Additionally, we are looking at murder rates, not CAPITAL MURDER rates. Are all murders in DP states punishable by death? Are ONLY MURDERS punishable by death? These questions are important when considering statistics of this type (from EITHER point of view!)

High-density states without DP have higher murder rates than states with DP.

DP seems to have deterred in New York.

The introduction of DP in NY and KA didn't lead to an increase (or a lower margin of decrease) in violent crime. The suggestion that DP leads to higher violent crime seems to be incorrect, at least for these 2 states.

amznbert

04-23-2005, 11:58 AM

Are you saying that unless someone can be productive, they should be killed? This might extend your argument to some disabled people, elderly people, mentally ill people, unemployed people, euthanasia and politicians..
Not in the least. and thats a sever way of taking one line out of context of the whole message. I am asking if that people who have grown up into adult hood who have shown to repeate over and over again the joy and ablity to comit murder can be productive members? reread the whole statement again and you should see the point.

Usually admission of guilt is relied on for a discount in sentencing because it avoids the trial and saves resources for the community, distress to victims and inconvenience to witnesses. You're actually suggesting the reverse.
Again taken out of context and misquoted. I was talking about people who have not yet faced a court system I.e. when people post manifestos or release video tapes stating they will kill these groups of people and any one who gets in there way.

lightkeeper

04-23-2005, 12:08 PM

Not in the least. and thats a sever way of taking one line out of context of the whole message. I am asking if that people who have grown up into adult hood who have shown to repeate over and over again the joy and ablity to comit murder can be productive members? reread the whole statement again and you should see the point.
Yeah I got your point the first time. Just thought "productive" was an interesting choice of words.

Again taken out of context and misquoted. I was talking about people who have not yet faced a court system I.e. when people post manifestos or release video tapes stating they will kill these groups of people and any one who gets in there way.
But having said they WILL kill doesn't prove they did kill. I agree with you about DP for those who are very unlikely to be rehabilitated and have committed particularly heinous crimes. I just think that "admission" (pre or post-offending) is not necessarily the best criteria to measure that.

lightkeeper

04-23-2005, 12:14 PM

Not suggesting you find a country with no criminal law.. just saying especially, if you were in an American state with the death penalty, its notimpossible to move to a state without it.Sure. But we're not just talking about the USA are we? We're talking about DP generally. What if you're a poor peasant living in China?

There has to be some kind of knowledge of cruel and unusual punishment. If it turns out in 20 years that prison has some grave effect(no pun intended) on emotional wellbeing and it is deemed cruel and unusual punishment.. would that make every person whos ever been jailed victims of cruel and unusual punishment?
Subquestion - what happens if someone is sentenced to prison and they suffer chlaustrophobia?
If you were badly maimed by a falling tree, and the tree had no intention of hurting you and no knowledge that you would be hurt if it fell on you, would you still be badly hurt?

Claustrophobia is a factor that's taken into account when determining how long you're going to jail for. Medical evidence should be lead in the plea, particularly for perverting the course of justice ;P

kipwrecked

04-23-2005, 12:32 PM

Sure. But we're not just talking about the USA are we? We're talking about DP generally. What if you're a poor peasant living in China?I would suggest selling something on e-bay. Maybe the rights to naming a baby. IF all else fails start swimming.

If you were badly maimed by a falling tree, and the tree had no intention of hurting you and no knowledge that you would be hurt if it fell on you, would you still be badly hurt?Well you started out by answering my question before you asked it.. so I guess I don't have a choice. Anyway I am not questioning the fact people have or will be hurt, I'm questioning responsibility. If a person got into a car (not knowing the brakes didnt work) and subsequently hit a person, obviously by accident.. would they be guilty of murder?

Claustrophobia is a factor that's taken into account when determining how long you're going to jail for. Medical evidence should be lead in the plea, particularly for perverting the course of justice ;PI don't know why you're bringing up perverts.

lightkeeper

04-23-2005, 12:35 PM

Well you started out by answering my question before you asked it.. so I guess I don't have a choice. Anyway I am not questioning the fact people have or will be hurt, I'm questioning responsibility. If a person got into a car (not knowing the brakes didnt work) and subsequently hit a person, obviously by accident.. would they be guilty of murder?

I don't know why you're bringing up perverts.
But you see, the point of the discussion (at least fo rme) is not to blame the state for imposing cruel and unusual punishment. It's about ensuring that a person doesn't become victim to cruel and unusual punishment.

amznbert

04-23-2005, 01:04 PM

So what is the defition of cruel and unsual then? www.m-w.com (http://www.m-w.com/) defindes each part as

Main Entry: cru·el
1 : disposed to inflict pain or suffering : devoid of humane feelings
2 a : causing or conducive to injury, grief, or pain <a cruel joke> b : unrelieved by leniency

Main Entry: un·usu·al
Function: adjective
: not usual : UNCOMMON (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=uncommon), RARE (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=rare)

So if leathal injection was the common practice for the DP and they do "TRY":confused: to make sure the person is unaware/knocked out. Then would it be correct to say that its not cruel and unsual? (symantics i know but I really want to know what people think defines cruel and unusal)

--------
since both put to gether would mean that any thing that caused pain at say randomly would still be considered cruel and unusual punishment.....man those hollywood movie makers are violateing my human rights i tell you.

samsfi

04-23-2005, 06:07 PM

Sorry if you don't like my 'eye for an eye' cliche'-

Still, no one will ever convince me the DP is warranted

JayandMe

04-23-2005, 07:19 PM

I think that maybe kipwrecked is referring more to people like Ted Bundy and severe serial rapists and murders.....In those cases where the person just has no remorse and no sence of humanity at all, then maybe I agree (I am really still undecided) BUT there are a lot of people on death row that really should not be there!!!! Maybe some of your loved ones fall into this category and thats where this thread seems to be having a difficult time. I don't think that someone who is strung out on drugs and gets dumped my his girl killing her in the heat of it......warrents death row! Each story is unique......and needs to be treated that way.

I live in Canada and although our system is far from perfect, I can't believe some of the stories I hear about the justice system in your country. It really upsets me.....there is so much overcrouding cause there are so many people that should not even be incarcerated at all or at least not close to the amount of time they are doing!

I think that Death Row should be extreme cases only......vicious serial killers and extreme cases. I think there are very distinct differences in the people that are waiting on death row......the problem starts in the court system.

lightkeeper

04-24-2005, 01:26 AM

I think that maybe kipwrecked is referring more to people like Ted Bundy and severe serial rapists and murders...
I think that Death Row should be extreme cases only......vicious serial killers and extreme cases. I think there are very distinct differences in the people that are waiting on death row......the problem starts in the court system.
Very good point. It seems that the debate is swaying between whether DP generally is justified and whether DP as used in the US today is justified.

kipwrecked

04-24-2005, 09:52 AM

Very good points. And thorough. Maybe people will follow suit and stop using statistics to prove things the statistics dont prove... or just making them up full stop.

Interesting statistics. Thanks for finding this, Jorlanda. But we all know how it is with statistics.

If you read on, you will see that these statistics do not indicate that DP leads to a higher murder-rate. You will also see that non-DP states with significant population and population density and containing large cities are actually HIGHER in their murder rates than DP states (particularly NY and Kansas but feel free to research others and you'll find a similar trend). And you will see that introducing DP has decreased murder rates in New York.

Here we go folks....

First of all, let me show you some other statistics. These are from the Disaster Centre. Unlike DPIC, this is a non-biased, factual site.

The article above mentions the fact that New York has introduced DP in 1995 and Kansas in 1994. It makes a big point of the fact that since 1995, the gap between DP-state murder rates and non-DP state murder rates has increased. It effectively implies that the introduction of DP in NY and Kansas has had an anti-deterrent effect. This is plainly incorrect. Here's why.

Crime statistics for New York can be found at:

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm

Looking at that chart, you will see that all crime in New York decreased since 1995. However, that decrease was larger for murder than it was for most other crimes. Coincidentally (or is it?), 1995 was the year NY re-enacted the Death Penalty. Between 1994 and 2000 murder rates in NY fell by 53%, that's more than half. This is a higher fall than the average for non-DP states (46% according to the link pasted by Jorlanda).

In Kansas, on the other hand, murder rates did not change at all since 1994.
( http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/kncrime.htm )

However, it would seem that in 1994, Kansas murder rates were already lower than those in most other states (certainly much lower than in NY, whose murder rate was huge in 1994). In fact, the Kansas rate of murder (6.3) is lower than that of Michingan (a non-DP state - 6.7 now and 9.8 in 1994).

It should be also pointed out that violent crime did not rise in Kansas since it introduced DP in 1994. It fell. And it fell by as much as it did in any other state (DP AND non-DP). Same goes for New York. This would seem to contradict any theory that DP causes a rise in violent crime.

And what about these lower murder rates in non-DP states anyway?

Note that non-DP states are

Alaska
Hawaii
Iowa
Maine
Massachusetts
Michigan
Minnesota
North Dakota
Rhode Island
Vermont
West Virginia
Wisconsin

ALSO
- Dist. of Columbia

The significantly high-population-density ones in that list are Washington D.C. and Michigan. Both of these have higher murder rates than any DP states you can think of, with D.C. having an enormous rate of 41.8 murders per 100,000 people. Compare this to New York which only has 5 murders per 100,000 people and has DP.

Now, as for Jorlanda's link....what do these stats really say?

Chart 1 shows that, amongst the States that didn't change their position on DP during the decade, the difference in murder rates between DP states and non-DP states has remained basically constant. In other words, Chart 1 alone tells us nothing.

Between 1990 and 1994 the number of executions per year in the USA has been roughly constant as well. The jump in 1994 and 1995 and onwards can probably be attributed to the introduction of DP in Kansas and New York in 1994 and 1995.

Chart 2 shows us the difference in murder rates between DP states and non-DP states, INCLUDING Kansas and NY. Until 1994 and 1995, Kansas and NY were non-DP states. Thus, their murder rates formed part of the non-DP murder rates. Since 1994 and 1995, these two states have been DP states. Thus, their murder rates have since then formed part of the DP states murder rates. The jump in the gap in the murder rate between DP and non-DP states begins in 1994, becomes material in 1995 and becomes huge in 1996. This jump is in my view a result of these two states becoming part of the DP statistic and leaving the non-DP statistic. Basically what we have is 2 states (one with very high murder rates at the time - NY) joining the ranks of DP states. . This also accounts for the higher number of executions.

Chart 3 shows that since 1994 and until 2000, murder rates in both DP and non-DP states had been consistently falling. This fall started about the same time as NY and KA introduced DP. We already know from my links above, that murder rates in NY decreased dramatically while those in Kansas remained basically the same. Thus, either the increase in gap is attribuable to the steady rate in Kansas or it's not related to DP at all.

Conclusion

1994-2000 saw a dramatic drop in all crime across the USA. The introduction of DP in NY saw a disproportionate drop in murder in that State. The introduction of DP in Kansas did not affect the murder rate in Kansas.

More research would need to be done. The increase in the gap is almost definitely not-DP-related! It would be interesting to see what measures non-DP states took in 1994 and 1995 in relation to murder. For example, it could be that a large non-DP state has greatly increased its penalties for murder, for example by imposing no-parole life sentences, then this would account for the gap. Note that there are only 12 states without DP. Thus, any large one of those states would make a measurable difference.

Additionally, we are looking at murder rates, not CAPITAL MURDER rates. Are all murders in DP states punishable by death? Are ONLY MURDERS punishable by death? These questions are important when considering statistics of this type (from EITHER point of view!)

High-density states without DP have higher murder rates than states with DP.

DP seems to have deterred in New York.

The introduction of DP in NY and KA didn't lead to an increase (or a lower margin of decrease) in violent crime. The suggestion that DP leads to higher violent crime seems to be incorrect, at least for these 2 states.

kipwrecked

04-24-2005, 09:56 AM

I think that maybe kipwrecked is referring more to people like Ted Bundy and severe serial rapists and murders.....In those cases where the person just has no remorse and no sence of humanity at all, then maybe I agree (I am really still undecided) BUT there are a lot of people on death row that really should not be there!!!! Maybe some of your loved ones fall into this category and thats where this thread seems to be having a difficult time. I don't think that someone who is strung out on drugs and gets dumped my his girl killing her in the heat of it......warrents death row! Each story is unique......and needs to be treated that way.
I'm only referring to whatever the point is that I'm debating. Maybe only those who have no remorse should be subjected to the DP - then again it is easily argued that those who are thoughtless enough to do drugs or whatever their excuse is for committing a crime should think more before they act and should be given no special treatment. A lot of things are arguable.. I'm merely raising points. :)

Demi

05-05-2005, 02:27 AM

For the record I am pro death penalty too - there
have been cases (mostly crimes against children) where I would happily inject the needle. There are people whose actions simply beg for removal from society.

We have to protect the innocent. We have to protect our future.

I do wonder about the cost and seemingly endless appeals of Death Row Inmates. I would like to see the Appeals process shortened but at the same time more safe guards that we are not killing an innocent person.

My heart goes out to those who have loved ones on the Row. I can not imagine and pray I will never have to learn what that is like.

I apologize if I hurt anyone. I don't know how I can say what I believe other than how I have said it.

PatitoDeHule

05-05-2005, 10:35 AM

I joined this debate late, but I'd like to state for the record that I am against death penalty, and I'd like to state some of my reasons why going back to the time when I was in favor.

In 1959 Caryl Chessman was executed for rape. I was 19, living in California, and 100% in favor of his execution. He was the last person in the U.S. executed for a crime other than murder. Since that time I have come to wonder whether he was guilty. In 1962 I voted for Richard Nixon over Pat Brown for governor of CA because of the stays Brown had given Chessman.

In 1963 I was living in Asmara, Eritrea. I was on a bus passing thourgh Aduwa when the bus stopped. Passengers were pointing and I looked. Within 2 or 3 minutes I saw a man publicly executed (hanged). I knew at that moment that I could never in anyway deliberately kill a man. I became undecided about DP.

In 1985 I had a foster son who was extremely claustrophobic. He got into trouble and was warned. He soon got into trouble again and was locked up overnight--something he knew would occur. You cannot know how much the idea terrified him unless you've been there. When he was released, he was allowed to call me. He was totally emotionally drained and clearly wanted a sympathetic ear. What he said to me then was "Dad, I didn't think they'd to it to me." There I had it. I wondered if this boy was not deterred by a night in solitary, then punishment can't be much of a deterrent for a lot of wrong-doers. In short, I began to doubt about deterrence theories.

My views have matured a lot since then and I am against DP for the following reasons:

1) Emotionally--It's repugnant.
2) Morally--It's always wrong to deliberately kill a human being. (True self-defense would not be deliberated, and there are always grey areas and fuzzy boundaries).
3) Morally--Two wrongs don't make a right.
4) Morally--The end does not justify the means. Exception--the true dilemma when the "means" is the only possible way of preventing a worse outcome.
5) Reason--DP does not accomplish what it purports to accomplish.
It is not a deterrent. It doesn't provide closure.
6) There is no question that innocent persons have been sentenced to DP and spent years on the death row here in the U.S. There is little doubt in my mind, given the number of innocents sentenced to death, that at least some have been executed. Once that mistake has been made, there is no way to even attempt to rectify it.

Death Penalty is pure retribution and serves no other end. There is something wrong with the whole idea of revenge as a cure for society's ills.

Keltria

05-05-2005, 01:30 PM

You have some good arguements Patito DeHule. Glad to see you changed your opinion on the Death Penalty.

BillieJo

05-16-2005, 02:09 PM

Demi- unless you have incredibly thick skin AND are not God fearing AND harbor your PERSONAL convictions with a mighty fortress built soley from enduring many hardhips in your life, therefore conditioning you... I would like to think that I don't think you could. one of those devices that advocates rely on to keep the DP would fail. you are human. and to take a life, any life- is wrong.

it's been proven that some of the most sensationalized controversial killers have endured a childhood combed from the depths of HELL.

Ed Gein's mother was psychotic, she didn't kill or hurt anyone outright. by all means she was a 'law abiding citizen'. she tormented her two sons thru her psycosis and/or overzealous religious convictions- with that gene already in him- she created a "monster".

I live near ppl who have had realitives that were around him when he was placed in an institution- once his mind was rid of his demons he carried from childhood- the man danced and sang like a child with pure unadulterated child-like joy, he was finally free. the shame he carried in his heart from his mother- and the guilt he felt for the urges he had that he could not control, and he has no guidance or cousel to what he could do to fix himself- were some of the contributing factors in why he did what he did. I don't offer this as an excuse. I am merely asking you to reconsider your stance.

my own grandmother took care of his social workers ailing elderly father, whom passed a long a piece of jewlery Ed had made to her. she had it blessed by a priest (iguess to make herself feel better) and to this day she has it. I have held it and thought about him. it breaks my heart.

a cynic would offer the man was still a monster only looped on drugs- but I ask so what if that were your Uncle Ed? or your son? how would you feel that your loved one would be HATED for something that was wrong with him, and overlooked? I doubt that you would stand behind your words. especialy to advocate killing him in the name of justice!

one thing for me personally is:

I have only come face to face with an awakening recently thru Richard Cartwright's words. it's not the easiest thing to find the courage and the strength to face a victim's family and ask that they forgive.

my x killed his GF and himself. I am close to his family. I have seen that battle rage. her friends crashed his funeral. they came in to make a scene. it was painful for everyone involved that cared for these two ppl- but the best friends of his GF came around and apologized for their anger and it made a difference in thier healing- for both parties. his mother has never been the same without her SONshine. she had a son and a daughter...they were her world and she was a great mother.

he wasn't conditioned as a cold blooded killer. he was in the throes of depression and desperation. until you feel that desperation in your life, and God saves you or somehow something snaps in your mind- you will never taste salvation and appreciate what must go on to drive someone to do what they did that you don't agree with.

I wish my x found that. I wish I knew. I didn't know what was going on and to make matters worse- I met his GF only once so many would ask
"and just who the hell are you?!" all of this is why they say hindsite is 20/20.
my x's story would have been the perfect scapegoat to bring to the ppl here in WI to restore the death penalty, had he not killed himself too. so I thought to share this. sometimes we have to dig deep thru all the munipulations we use as defense in our arguments to get to the heart of the matter.

in closing: IMO God works in mysterious ways. sometimes we lose the message when we allow anger and selective apathy to cloud our hearts when instead we should turn the other cheek, lest we lose the message He is trying to send us. He asks that we forgive others in the Lord's prayer. and First Commandment is "Thou Shall Not Kill". God never promised us a rose garden here on earth- he saved the best for last (Heaven) of course, as long as we hang in there:)

philip parkers

05-17-2005, 06:42 PM

ok hello my names is melissa
my son was murdered in feb 2005by another inmate
this same in mate killed his last ciel mate
befor that he killed his uncle i will not get in to detailsabout those murderslets just says no one scoulg have ever been made to go throw that they will never leave me and the guy wjo did this is in my thoughts every day killing my son
needless to say he is all i think about
i have no rights i can not say anything for this will take his rights away
so what am i left with going to court lisening to how this guy murderd my son
destroyed my live my childrens lifes all who loved my son
and yet i still do not want the dealth pentaly
i have never belived in it . i tought my sons never to kill that killing was wrong
so how can i set while these people go for this ?
bad anoff i have no son now i have to have this guys death on my hands too
some say he will keep killing even he says it and he dose every chance he gets thats
why my philip is gone now . i have so many mixed feelings about this
i understand that many have loved ones on death row
and i feel for the famileys very much so becouse they to are victims like me
how can i has a mother ask a nother mother for the life of her son how ?
thank you melissa

Kyla

05-17-2005, 10:40 PM

Melissa
Thanks so much for posting, your post bought tears to my eyes. I am truly sorry for the loss of your son, but I just wish that everyone had the same attitude as you. Loosing a loved one is extremely hard, no matter if its from murder or the death penalty. You could really teach people alot (((((hugs)))))))

philip parkers

05-18-2005, 05:11 PM

some people have said to me how can i not belive in the death penalty now after what has happen .
i can not change my belives becouse this has happen to some one i love. i truely do no belive in that. never have . some people say i don't know what i am talking about but to these people i have to say theu have thier belives and i have mine ,
and being a mother made these belives even stronger i know how much i love my sons and what i would do for them . i could never do that to any ones child . allthough mr johns has killed 2 now in the system i'm not sure what the answer is for him but i do not belive death is the answer i'm sorry i do not i do belive he needs to be put in a super ultra max prison where he can never hurt a nother inmate or another person
he needs to be watched at all times he still says he will kill again if giveing the chance
so the states says well lets kill him then we will not have to worry about him
that's the easy way out / the man knows he will never see freedom again maybe this is what he wants . i belive he schould stay behind bars 24 hrs a day for the rest of his miserable life .and be made to suffer like i am that is my feelings
\i know a lot of you think they schould have a lot of privleges but after killing 3 people and 2 of them being inmates i don't think he schould be trusted with any life
but thats just my belives i never push them on any one . ive allways belived every one makes thier own choices in life no one can make any one do anything they do not want to
thanks for listening to me melissa

paneezy

05-20-2005, 05:02 AM

Like i said in the other thread i feel if you're christian there can be no way that you can be a dp supporter and be a christian. But if you're not a believer then let the dp proceed. I only have a problem with hypocrisy. I have a problem with people claiming to be christians but supporting and doing unchristian things.

BillieJo

05-20-2005, 09:11 AM

PatitoDeHule

05-20-2005, 09:18 AM

You're not alone, Melissa. Are you familiar with Murder Victims' Families for Reconciliation? It's website is at www.mvfr.org (http://www.mvfr.org) . Many family members find it very difficult to be opposed to DP when so many others don't understand how they can still be opposed to DP.

{hugs}

ok hello my names is melissa
my son was murdered in feb 2005by another inmate
this same in mate killed his last ciel mate
befor that he killed his uncle i will not get in to detailsabout those murderslets just says no one scoulg have ever been made to go throw that they will never leave me and the guy wjo did this is in my thoughts every day killing my son
needless to say he is all i think about
i have no rights i can not say anything for this will take his rights away
so what am i left with going to court lisening to how this guy murderd my son
destroyed my live my childrens lifes all who loved my son
and yet i still do not want the dealth pentaly
i have never belived in it . i tought my sons never to kill that killing was wrong
so how can i set while these people go for this ?
bad anoff i have no son now i have to have this guys death on my hands too
some say he will keep killing even he says it and he dose every chance he gets thats
why my philip is gone now . i have so many mixed feelings about this
i understand that many have loved ones on death row
and i feel for the famileys very much so becouse they to are victims like me
how can i has a mother ask a nother mother for the life of her son how ?
thank you melissa

paneezy

05-20-2005, 03:11 PM

:::I have a problem with people claiming to be christians but supporting and doing unchristian things.::::

paneezy you don't have to be a christian to support abloshing the death penalty. this whole religion issue clouds morals and issues everyday.

president Bush swept the elections with the aid of the churchs, however he sat over the most executions in TX history as govorner. I don't stand in support of the death penalty and I am far from a Christian in the eyes of many. that is between me and God.

and especially anyone who stands in support of God should know better than to support the DP, there is a lot more to the bible than eye for an eye.

it's time that we stand against the DP no matter any religion and call upon those who use God politically everyday to end this "Justifiable Homicide".

bottom line.what are you talking about did you read what i said. I wa sspeaking of people that support the death penalty. basically i was saying if the arguement of supporting the dp is made to either a christians or a non christian the only way to argue against it is with the person that is claiming to be a christian. to be honest if a person is a non believer in religion it's hard for me to find a reason to tell that person to NOT support it.

gipsyrose

05-23-2005, 08:06 AM

If someone is innocent of their crime, then no I don't support it. If someone is convicted then there must have been enough evidence to convict them, right?
I used to not support it at all until I lost someone that was like my little brother over the weekend.
If Michigan had the death penalty, I would hope that HE of all people would be on the 'row'. THe kid that shot him was 17. I don't care if he's a kid or not.
He deserves to die.
And I'm sure he will after he's convicted and sent to prison. I know a lot of people here are christian, 'an eye for an eye right?' I would like to personally watch this 'boy' be tortured slowly. I don't feel bad about my anger. He needs to feel our pain one way or another and if this punk is gonna walk around w/ a pistol shooting innocent people, then he has NO empathy. And I, none for him.
I'm having alot of evil thoughts about this person and would like to express all my feelings but I've chosen not to because this is not the place to do it. I would offend too many people.
I've seen this thread pop up a lot here and there and am glad I waited to post my opinion. I guess I had to go through it to have a better understanding of open murder to make MY decision.
I wonder though, how many people who voted in Fed-X's poll and commented here have actually gone through the loss of someone through murder or manslaughter....? I'm not talking about the people that have family in prison for those crimes. I'm talking about the victims that lost the person or people because of the prisoner.
I would like to hear from you.
Do they support it or not?
RIP my friend :(

Schmusi34

05-23-2005, 08:30 AM

@gipsyrose
No I still don't support it, nor does one of my friends who just lost her nephew on the way to church to be married. I would much rather see the person rehabilitated and learn from his mistakes.

kipwrecked

06-07-2005, 10:43 AM

what are you talking about did you read what i said. I wa sspeaking of people that support the death penalty. basically i was saying if the arguement of supporting the dp is made to either a christians or a non christian the only way to argue against it is with the person that is claiming to be a christian. to be honest if a person is a non believer in religion it's hard for me to find a reason to tell that person to NOT support it.
The point of this debate thread is to debate the death penalty on logic rather than emotions and religion. Whether you are for or against the DP or no matter how you are effected by it, it is likely to be traumatic for anyone. The emotional aspect is there for everyone, for or against. Religion should have nothing to do with whether or not the DP is right or wrong. Christianity is a popular religion but it is not the only one. How can you justify the pros or cons of the DP based on a singular religion in a society of many religions. The only way to decide fairly is to keep religion well and truly out of it. I suggest you think long and hard about how to explain to a non believer why it shouldnt be supported. Just because some people don't subscribe to your religion does not mean they should not be satisfied for why the DP is not acceptable.

ch0l0z_lad13

06-08-2005, 12:58 PM

I am 100% against the DP. Killing a person because of something they did doesn't take away what happened or bring closure to anybody. I agree with what PatitoDeHule said. People that agree with the death penalty obviously have never walked down that road of having a loved one sitting there waiting to be executed. It's BS. The death penalty is Murder and I don't care what anyone has to say about it. It's murder and you can't make me see it any other way. For all these folks that are pro DP.... walk with a DR inmate and see how much it tears you up inside. I've never known or walked with a DR inmate, but my heart and soul goes out to ALL the families and loved ones of those inmates. Murder doesn't justify anything. If you're going to argue and make a battle on why the DP is right then make better battles and don't say stupid things. All of us that have family members, friends, etc. in prison should come together and help one another out.

philip parkers

06-08-2005, 03:24 PM

ok i to am against the dp . there is no way to change my mine
and now my loved ones say i am crazy that this man killed my son and 2 other people
did i not love my son ?
and if i do then how can i say i don't want them to kill him . all i can say is the pain i have fron losing my child will never go away never and i can not5 and will not be apart of taking any ones life
i know the pain and i can not but that pain on no one no matter what
this man has to be punished watched and kept away from other prisoners so he can never do this again
if the prison system was doing thier jobs this man would never been aloud to kill my son or his ciel mate
so the answer for what to do with him i am not to sure but laying him down butting him to sleep and killing him is not the answer he needs to be punished
and the system needs to change we all do death schould never be a answer
melissa

Deecaly

06-09-2005, 04:20 AM

Killing a person because of something they did doesn't take away what happened or bring closure to anybody.

No, it does not take away what happened. But since you have never been on the end of the murder victims family, I'm not so sure that you can say it doesn't bring closure to anybody. I'm sure there are mvf that it has brought closure for, and would disagree with you.

For all these folks that are pro DP.... walk with a DR inmate and see how much it tears you up inside.

How about spend just one night, one hour for that matter in the body of the parent of a murdered child and have to live with the thoughts they are having. Wondering the fear the child felt, knowing they just wanted their parents to come find them and bring them to safety. Wondering or reliving how that child was murdered. Fighting to remember how sweet, precious and innocent they were when your memory is clouded with the awful pictures of what was done to their child. THOSE are the things that tear me up inside.

I've never known or walked with a DR inmate, but my heart and soul goes out to ALL the families and loved ones of those inmates.

My heart goes out to those familys as well. It is a terrible thing to go through and I wish that on noone. I do wish though that the inmate would have thought of how their actions were going to hurt their family. The inmate is the one person responsible for the pain their family is going through

The death penalty is Murder and I don't care what anyone has to say about it. It's murder and you can't make me see it any other way.

Murder is defined as the crime of unlawfully killing a person. As it stands now, the dp is lawful. I'm not trying to have you see it any other way, I'm only stating my opinions on your comments.

Murder doesn't justify anything.
No, I agree, Murder does not justify anything. But, the punishment for murder can be the death penalty. Therefore the death penalty is justice according to our laws.

Let me finish my comments here by saying. I do not feel that all murderers should be punished by death. Straight out cold blooded murder, beyond a reasonable doubt. Yes I support that. For the other murderers, I can accept Life Without Parole, and some even Life With Possibility of Parole. I would even consider supporting LWOP for even those I have labeled should be on DR, my only problem with is that some will just continue to murder as Philip Parker has proven. Now why should we save the life of a murderer to just put another inmate or Correction Officer's life at risk. It is said DP is not a deterrent, but it sure does deter that person from murdering again and ruining the life of yet another family of victims.

philip parkers

06-09-2005, 05:18 PM

once again i am here lisen to see if i am missing something about the death penaltiy
and i have took every view to heart
and i have to say i am a mother of a young man whos life was taken in away that i can't even imagen and yes every time i try to see him all i see is him fighting for his life and no one carring anoff to stop this from happening
wondering what was going throw his mine was it fast did he know how much i love him i saw the with my own eyes his body and know that he tryed to fight but being schakled down like a dog
well i saw the pain i know everything this man done to my boy and i still there it is i do not belive that death is the answer
he schould be punished for the rest of his natural life for what he has done to my son the other young man and his own uncle this people had the right to live this man is not god and it wasn't up to him to take are loved one
so how can the state say they can kill this man and then it would be right
i'll never understand this never
melissa

feline

06-09-2005, 07:42 PM

If you want to debate capital punishment generally, this is the place to do it. Feel free to express your opinion, whatever it is.

Please do not make comments that would offend other users, no matter how much you disagree with their views. Also obey PTO rules at all times.

Is it right? Well, it can`t be "right".
How can it be "right" when the offender is being punished for killing. Because society considers it is wrong to kill.
It may be thought to be appropriate; and it may be what society considers to be a suitable punishment.
But it can`t be "right". If it was "right" to kill, the offender wouldn`t need to be punished in the first place.
It is a total moral and legal contradiction to execute(kill) an offender to show that it is unacceptable to kill.

Deecaly

06-10-2005, 02:00 PM

It may be thought to be appropriate; and it may be what society considers to be a suitable punishment. But it can`t be "right". If it was "right" to kill, the offender wouldn`t need to be punished in the first place.

This comment I agree with. It is socially acceptable and thought to be appropriate punishment for the act of murder. How "right" in the true sense of the word is, I don't know, not very I guess. There are many things in this life that fall exactly the same way though, acceptable, but is it right?? I guess as with all those other things, each person has to determine if it is right for them to be right with who they feel they need to answer to.

well i saw the pain i know everything this man done to my boy and i still there it is i do not belive that death is the answer
he schould be punished for the rest of his natural life for what he has done to my son the other young man and his own uncle this people had the right to live this man is not god and it wasn't up to him to take are loved one

Melissa, I have to first apologize for the pain you've been put through and will continue to endure. Then I would like to commend you. What you said that I quoted here is truely admirable. I respect you greatly for having the compassion for someone who hurt you so badly. I do agree that punishment for natural life is acceptable. But then I have to wonder how do you protect others (inmates and guards) from someone that has said outright that they will kill again if they get the chance. He would have to be locked up 24/7, anytime out of his cell would be a risk to those people around him. If he were to be locked up 24/7 undoubtedly there would be groups fighting that his rights as a human are being denied trying to get him more benefits. Which brings me to a question I would like to ask you. If this man were to be locked up for the rest of his natural life, just how would you like that life to be? In cell 24/7, no tv, or modern comforts, no being allowed outside contact with people other than his immediate family before incarceration? Or would you not care what he does while in there, let him live as he wants?

Leah67

06-13-2005, 04:44 AM

If you had asked me six months ago I would have told you I supported the death penalty and believe in an eye for an eye. Now I do not. I can not support the death penalty but do believe that some crimes are so horrific the person who commited them should never see the outside of a prison again.

However, people commit crimes they become ashamed of later on and they do change. These same people have parents, siblings, children wives/husbands etc.
If there are children, I believe visiting a parent in prison is hard on a child, but visiting the grave of a parent is even harder. Therefore I believe a parent in prison is better than no parent at all.

Those on death row have people that care about them just as they victim's have people who care about them. However, to punish people with death is not going to change the lives they altered when they commited the crime in the first place. There is a human side to every story and every person who commits a crime has a human story as well, We need to stop and think about the fact that in the U.S. killing someone is a crime and yet the government will punish the killer by killing them. Seems like a contradictary idea to me

Angel01

06-28-2005, 11:20 PM

I am not sure if it is allowed here, but this is the link to a lot of information pertaining to the death penalty. Hope it is useful to you.

http://theabolishmentmovement.org/

If you had asked me six months ago I would have told you I supported the death penalty and believe in an eye for an eye. Now I do not. I can not support the death penalty but do believe that some crimes are so horrific the person who commited them should never see the outside of a prison again.

However, people commit crimes they become ashamed of later on and they do change. These same people have parents, siblings, children wives/husbands etc.
If there are children, I believe visiting a parent in prison is hard on a child, but visiting the grave of a parent is even harder. Therefore I believe a parent in prison is better than no parent at all.

Those on death row have people that care about them just as they victim's have people who care about them. However, to punish people with death is not going to change the lives they altered when they commited the crime in the first place. There is a human side to every story and every person who commits a crime has a human story as well, We need to stop and think about the fact that in the U.S. killing someone is a crime and yet the government will punish the killer by killing them. Seems like a contradictary idea to me

Yogi1962

07-07-2005, 12:10 PM

stinie

07-13-2005, 06:00 PM

I'm talking about the victims that lost the person or people because of the prisoner.
I would like to hear from you.
Do they support it or not?
RIP my friend :(
I have lost my father. He was a policeman and was shooten down during an Employment.
And no. I don't support the DP at all. What would this change? Am I more happy after the death of my father's murderer, would I be satiesfied and could find peace?
No!

strogirl

07-13-2005, 10:45 PM

Alright, I'm going to be honest, when I first started writing to Death Row, I was very much for the death penalty but not the juvy dp. Coming from a very conservative family (everyone in my family is for the DP) and from Texas where our so called wonderful president is from, I believed in what I saw and heard. I was like that until about November 2004. I was standing outside the Walls Unit in Huntsville for the execution of someone I had never met but had heard a lot about. I saw his family come out of viewing his execution. I remember thinking to myself "Wow, this just isn't right, no person should ever have to be PUT to death no matter what they did, and no one should ever have to lose a loved one this way" My entire prospective on the DP changed that night. Guilty or nonguilty NO ONE should ever have to die like that. I've heard other pro dp people (since my state is filled with them) say "Murder for Murder" No one should be murdered for murder and I mean NO ONE.

I'm going back to Huntsville in about a month for a friend's execution. I'm not witnessing it but just the thought of going back there for someone I personally know makes me more and more anti-dp.

Eldon's wife

07-14-2005, 04:44 AM

I am from Jasper County Texas, where the death penalty is still strongly supported. Just a little over a year ago, I believed still that I supported the system. I had been taught, in youth that the DP system deters crime, saves the cost of lifetime incarceration and is considered just and right by a majority of American citizens. I was also taught the capital system is set up to almost gaurentee no innocent lives are lost. I was fed a line of bs to put it bluntly.

A few years ago, I concietedly argued these points, with a fellow student at college. He was a black man that adamantly declared the system was unfairly biased against the poor and blacks.For half an hour, I debated this man and refused to accept his points, as facts. Today, I know from my own research that the death penalty is unfairly biased against minorities. As well, I have learned the common denominator among every deathrow inmate is that of being poor.

A little over a year ago, while researching a case, against an old running buddy, who was in trouble in Arizona, I ran across my first death row pen pal site. I never intended to write anyone, just look at the "monsters." It was my belief, as it is the belief, of far too many Americans, that only monsters are condemned. Common belief is that we execute, only the worst of the worst. That belief is wrong. It was not the man that I began to write, who taught me this. It was my own research, after I allowed my mind to be opened to the possibility that what I had believed for years could be wrong.

First, I learned the case I was researching, involved the beating and murder of an elderly camper. The man, who committed the murder recieved life, without parole. There are many,on Arizona death row, for less brutal crimes, but they were unfortunate enough to commit the crime in an election year, choose a wealthy victim, or have the wrong reporter bring attention to thier case.

I have learned that these are the sort of things that lead to a prosecutor's decision to declare a murder a capital offense. Most likely, to be a death penalty case is a murder that involves a white victim and black killer, especially in my beloved south. Of all the counties in Texas, it may as well be said about around half a dozen or less depending on the year, actually have a death penalty. If any of the others elect an ambitious prosecutor, suddenly that county too will see a sharp rise in thier use of the death penalty. It is the prosecutor's discretion that makes the choice, whether a killer will live or die, not a system that sets strict guidelines or attempts to assure justice.

As for the deterence of crime. The folks, who make this claim had better watch the 6 o'clock news. Not once has a teen strung out on drugs and needing cash to stop his withdrawals, stopped to think, "I had better not commit this robbery, or I may be executed." And a majority of the men, who commit these crimes are seeking a way to end thier own life. Suicide by cop, accounts for a large percentage of suspect shootings, in this country, each year. Many DR inmates hault thier appeals and volubnteer to die, becuse they were sick of living when they committed murder and the realization they face 20 years on death row is more than they can handle. While the others wait, our crime rates go up, as they go down in countries that long ago stopped executions. The U. N. has declared execution inhumane, as a means of punishment in civilized nations.

The greater punishment, as felt by most of these inmates would be a lifetimeof confinement. The cost of which, by the way, is far less than the cost of a death penalty case and the lengthy appeals process, added on top of the cost of the inhumane way in which the DR prisoners are housed requiring far greater funding than that of normal incarceration. The average time between conviction and execution, across the country is somewhere around 18 years. I can not quote exact figures, as far as cost is concerned. However, I can gaurentee, if you go to any department of corrections and judicial websites that contain the figures and start adding up the numbers yourself, life over death is by far the financially beneficial choice for American taxpayers.

We do not execute the innocent! Think again!

Now for the interesting part of my story. I am the wife, of Arizona death row inmate, Eldon Michael Schurz. The proud wife, I might add, as my husband has survived 15 years, within a system that the Humane Society would deem unfit for a stray dog. He did not commit murder and the system has yet to destroy him.

I know, they all say this. Wrong again! a majority of inmates overall are extremely honest about thier guilt and DR inmates, have little hope of finding justice, whether they are innocent or not, thus see little point in lieing. My husband though he always maintained his innocence, had all but accepted that his fate, most likely lay in the executioners hands. He never told me he was innnocet, when we first began to write. It was only, after I learned that his case involves the shorest death penalty trial in U.S. history and recieved a copy of his case records and trial transcripts that I figured out, just how easily the innocent can find themselves in the death chambers.

Prosecutor Noel Levy, early in his career and an advocate of death, prosecuted several capital cases in the late 80's and early 90's. Another, of these cases was the case of Ray Krone. Krone by the way is now a millionaire, as his case was proven to have been based on falsified testimony, prosecutor misconduct and the bad ethics of Maricopa County detectives. Krone is a free man.

My husband faced the same prosecutorial team, including investigators. In what amounts to a "travesty" of justice, in the words of legal professionals, given the chance to discuss our case, with our attorney. Levy devoted less than 9 hours to carrying out a 3 part capital trial. It just does not happen. My husband's defense counsel seems to have merely watched, contibuting almost nothing to a defense. Eldon had a record, but he was not a murderer, still isn't.

My husband's greatest crimes at this time, or at least those that led to his conviction did not include murder. His greatest crimes were being Native American, ignorant of the capital system,poor and having a court appointed attorney. It is not by the evidence, establishing guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, that these men are condemned to death. In my husband's case a co-defendant testified. M husband has served 15 years in hell, for a crime he had no idea had occured, until he awoke the morning, after the murder. He and his 2 year old son, were in bed and surrounded, by armed cops. The co- defendant committed the murder,but his plea deal allowed him to walk on 5 years probation for an unrelated crime.

We have a chance on appeals, if that is saying anything. The appeals process is long and drawn out, and one, of the least just parts of the entire justice system, in this country. Because, two court appointed attorneys simply did not care, if Eldon dies, many important issues are nolonger available for us to use on appeal. You would think there was a major error. The issues were simply not raised and written into the record, before the deadline to do so expired.

Had they been raised they can be effected relevant by such important issues, as how good a day the judge may be having. I do not jest. The appointment of Supreme Court judges by a Republican President will be a travesty in terms of actual justice in death cases. Personal opinion does count, as can the shortage of coffee in the judges office, on the morning you find yourself in court.

Within, the appellate courts there is no recourse, if your attorney makes a mistake, or as in our case seemingly purposely fails, in his duty. You live or die, as a consequence and it does not seem to matter which, to those in control.

This system is the only part of the justice system in America where proof of actual innocence can be absolutely dismissed as worthless. Families across this country hold undeniable proof thier loved ones were innocent. Thier family members were executed, anyway. The evidence came after they had completed the appeals process. Twelve new eye witnesses and a team of DNA experts can not stop your execution, once you have used up your appeals. Despite Eldon's innocence it can be counted as a miracle, if we find justice.

It can't happen to me!

Then, how are thousands of innocent Americans are incarcerated every day of every year? This is by the governments own admission. Hundreds of innocent inmates wither away death rows, across the nation. My husband warned me,when I first became involved in his case that I would spend alot of time angry.

"Noone cares until it happens to them," he said.
I did not believe that America had grown so complacent in protecting our rights, at the time. I now know that he is right, not until it happens to them, does anyone care.

Unfortunately, it could be anyone, at any time. Krone had no record. He was an innocent man, without enough resources to fight such an expensive legal proceeding, and was ignorant of the system he faced. He lost almost two decades of life, after being sentenced twice for the same crime, before he got his miracle. My husband longs to come home and be a part of me and our teen boys lives, but at best, we still face years trapped within the capital system. I never dreamed I would know anyoneon the row, I am now a DR inmate's wife, and soon a friend will be sentenced to the row, in New Mexico.

The running buddy of ole, while strungout on drugs, had moved on to New Mexico during his crime spree. Without being aware of her occupation, he shot an off duty police officer there., Thinking her just another citizen, he was trying to steal her van. Funny, he did not stop to think that he might be executed were she to turn out to be a cop, in his drug induced panic. But, a cop killing is the only gaurentee, you will get an appointment, with the executioner, nomatter how henious your crime. He will be sentenced to death, for her death. However, had he raped and murdered a child there was at least a possibility he would have missed his date with death.

Should he be punished? Absolutely! Will his death accomplish anything? I have known this man, for almost 30 years, he has done all but hold a gun to his own head. He wants to die, so I assume execution would be of benefit in his mind, if it did not take 20 years.

Lastly, family closure. How can anyone find comfort, in the taking of a human life, for any reason? Families of murder victims, around the nation speak out daily against the death penalty, knowing that state sanctioned murder makes us no better than those we kill. I have children,and I have great compassion for those, who loose thier loved ones to vilent crime.

But, I know the system and all it's faults. And I know the guys that are trapped, within the hell they call the pods, are in actuality no more brutal than thousands, who never find themselves condemned to death, in every state. And , I have to consider that I know, if I were to advocate the killing of another person's child and were he to be the last case of 8, odds are overwhelmingly in favor of his innocence, despite a conviction. Thus, I can nolonger support the DP system.

In light of all I know I can not agree with killing anyone in the name of justice. With education most Americans could not, either. I hear that we manage to kill 7 guilty, for each innocent man that we execute. I do not feel comfortable with those odds. And I do have to wonder how every American would feel comfortable, if the one innocent man was one of thier own family members, perhaps your husband or son.

It can happen to you!