View Full Version : Guardian:Stop this folly now


titantoo
02-18-2005, 07:47 PM
Stop this folly now

There is no need to sacrifice free speech in order to protect British Muslims
Timothy Garton Ash
Thursday February 17, 2005
Guardian

Like a man trying to stop a leaking wastepipe with a priceless Raphael drawing, the government is about to do great damage in the cause of averting damage. This impending folly is its proposed legislation on "incitement to religious hatred". Everyone who cares about free speech - the oxygen of so many other freedoms - must shout now to stay the government's hand, and prevent it pushing through parliament this ill-conceived, badly worded, dangerous piece of law. But first of all, let's acknowledge that there is a problem with that leaking wastepipe. Particularly since the 9/11 terrorist attacks, the effluent of human hatred in western societies, including Britain, has flowed more strongly against people rightly or wrongly described as "Muslims". This ranges from casual remarks to serious agitation by the xenophobic right.

The law has already been strengthened to address this problem. When Mark Norwood, an activist of the British National party, displayed in the window of his flat in Gobowen, a small town in Shropshire, a poster with the words "Islam out of Britain" next to a photograph of the World Trade Centre in flames, he was tried and convicted under a 2001 amendment to the 1998 Crime and Disorder Act. This extended the offence of causing alarm or distress to include cases that are "racially or religiously aggravated". The conviction was recently upheld by the European court of human rights.

However, as Fiona McTaggart, the responsible Home Office minister, stressed in an interview for this column, while the law prevents people like Norwood from publicly offending or harassing Muslims, it does not yet stop them from inciting their followers to do so. In a curious anachronism, the British legislation on incitement to racial hatred protects Jews and Sikhs, but not Muslims. That inconsistency is a source of understandable grievance to British Muslims.

Unfortunately, the government's proposed solution to this real problem will only make things worse. Its new schedule 10 to the serious organised crime and police bill, which went through its third reading in the House of Commons last week, despite strong objections, and now goes to the House of Lords, would criminalise a speech, publication or performance which is "likely to be heard or seen by any person in whom they are ... likely to stir up racial or religious hatred". Religious hatred is defined as "hatred against a group of persons defined by reference to religious belief or lack of religious belief". That would seem to cover all the bases, especially since "religious belief" is nowhere otherwise defined.

This loose talk cast as law is dangerous in several ways. While the government insists it's intended only to prevent incitement against persons, not against religions, the line between criticising believers and criticising beliefs is unclear. Race and religion are quite different. There is no possible rational objection to blackness. There are many possible rational objections to religion, whether Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism or Islam, and some of the greatest thinkers in modern history have held them.

Moreover, the legislation does not require proof of the intent to "stir up" religious hatred, merely the effect. One could credibly argue that the effect (though obviously not the intention) of the publication of Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses was to stir up religious hatred, first among and then against British Muslims. "Oh no," cry government spokespersons, "of course this law would never be used against something like the Satanic Verses." But challenged on this point in the Commons debate last week, Mr Khalid Mahmood, a Labour MP from Birmingham, said: "In the context of Salman Rushdie, the issue was the abusive words that he deliberately used, which were written in phonetic Urdu ... " Such issues, he suggested, should be tested in the courts.

The effect of this law, if passed, could be to deter writers, actors or film-makers from risking offensive portrayals of Islam and other religions. Indeed, as Kenan Malik points out in the latest issue of Prospect magazine, it might even encourage offended groups to mount riotous protests. For they might think that such public disorder would be evidence in court that religious hatred had, in effect, been stirred up. While ministers hasten to assure us that prosecutions under this legislation are likely to be few and far between, a single case could produce a martyr for the far right. If, however, there are no prosecutions, the government will have raised expectations among Mr Mahmood's constituents that will then be disappointed.

Why do it, and why now? A cynical interpretation is that, in the run-up to a general election, New Labour is trying to woo back Muslim voters alienated by Blair's stance on the Iraq war, the detentions without trial of British Muslims in Belmarsh prison and Guantánamo, and so on. Fiona McTaggart argued to me, with passion, that it is about the historically vital task of making the Muslim community feel secure, included and at home in Britain. One can see how, for a committed Labour minister, the two things could merge in the mind.

Yet to impute motives for which one has no hard evidence is unfair, so let's take the government's case on its own terms. It's still wrong. In a letter addressed to Salman Rushdie, as a leading voice in a formidable group of objectors put together by English PEN, Ms McTaggart wrote: "Writers and artists, like yourself, are rightly concerned about freedom of expression. The government's prime concern is the safety and security of communities." No! That may be her prime concern, as the minister for race equality, community policy and civil renewal, but the task of the government, in all liberal democracies, is to strike a balance between two great public goods, freedom and security. Here they are proposing too great a risk to freedom, for too uncertain a gain in security.

There's a simple solution to hand. In the Commons last week, the Liberal Democrat MP Evan Harris proposed an amendment, originally drafted by the distinguished human rights lawyer Anthony Lester, which would change the law on incitement to racial hatred to include "reference to a religion or religious belief or to a person's membership or presumed membership of a religious group as a pretext for stirring up racial hatred against a racial group". Basta. Problem addressed.

If New Labour wants to go further, then, in its historic third term, it can take two larger steps towards building a society that is both free and multicultural. It can abolish our ludicrously outmoded blasphemy law, which (notionally) protects only the Church of England. And it can disestablish the Church of England, thus allowing Prince Charles, an energetic patron of the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies, to be what he has said he wants to be: defender of faith, not the Faith.

Meanwhile, there's this bad law to be seen off. When the Lords have sent it back to the Commons, parliament has adjourned for the election, and Labour has won again, with the help of those Muslim votes, the government should quietly drop it - and pass instead the practical, careful, precise Lester/Harris amendment. That's an appropriate piece of stout paper to stop the leak in the wastepipe. And we will save our Raphael of free speech.

Rostonhall
02-19-2005, 07:47 AM
This may not suit the Guardian but something has to be done about the fact that Muslims in this country have been treated very badly since 9/11, and making many young Muslims become very militant. I don't agree with their actions but I can't condemn it either as I do understand it all too well.

I've been subjected to race/religion hate myself since I had a letter published in my local paper condemning the fanatical flag waving we've become subjected to. This was on St. George's Day, and I don't mean the Union flag, what I'm talking about is the English flag, the Cross of St. George. In itself, this is a racist flag, being the banner of the Crusader who committed the most despicable genocide on the Islamic people, all in the name of 'God'. St. George's claim to fame is that he 'slew the dragon'. The 'dragon' being the 'dragon of Islam'. How can we expect the young British born Muslim to feel at home when the national flag is perpetuating that racism everywhere it is flown? And before anyone starts shouting at me, the British National Party have used the Cross of St. George to further their neo-nazi ravings for as long as I can remember, and that's over 50 years!!! They started out as the National Front after the war and have been going ever since, just changing their name to make it a bit more acceptable.

I don't like 'New Labour' I'm 'old' Labour through and through and I went to school with Tony Benn's sons, but I'll back any new laws that try to stop the situation that's developing from going any further.


Rose

Schmusi34
02-19-2005, 12:46 PM
Sorry but no.. Equality and Diversity is very high in England and Germany. The laws are VERY strict. The majority of people are treated very well. Only a minority of people treat other badly and thats blown out of proportion.

titantoo
02-19-2005, 10:56 PM
I cannot promise it is not blown out of proportion. What I will say is that every country has its ignorant brutal racist neo Nazis or their equivalent. What makes it dangerous is when the county itself tolerates torture, violation of human rights and brutality.
The Nazis under Hitler certainly did that. It is not difficult to make a case for the fact that B**H and the current US system does also. I presume it is not quite as easy to make the case for the UK or Germany today. It was easy to make the case for Saddam Hussein's regime and there are plenty of other candidate regimes.

Schmusi34
02-21-2005, 03:16 AM
The thing with Saddam H.. well that is very political. It was America who put him in the chair in the first place, when they needed him.
Yes we do have neo nazis here. But if they get caught, they get charged. Books like "Hitlers Kampf" are forbidden in Germany but you can freely by it in America. Because of the nation we are, Equal Opportunity is a very high thing, and as you know, you shouldn't believe everything the media tells you. Today in our contry you have more rights as a muslim, than you have as a christian german. You get more benefit payed, they get first choise when it comes to social flats, they have a right for sat systems, there own church's, there own culture. In some schools they even teach turkish as second language. To my opinion some of these things are getting to far and we need to be carefull that we are not overruled soon.

Rostonhall
02-21-2005, 03:36 AM
The point is with this new legislation is that it's now including Muslims. We've always had it in place to protect Jews and Sikhs but it excluded the Islamic people. In a country that is so multi-racial and with as many faiths as we have the exclusion of one is unforgivable. I am an atheist but I will defend the rights of those who want to believe, just as I hope they will defend my right not to. And I will defend their rights to worship in a place of their choice and to bring their cultures to wherever they choose to live. I do the same when I'm outside the UK so why shouldn't others. I can't expect one rule for me and another for everyone else.

The religious hatred stirred up by Bush, and let's not forget Blair, is frightening. The damage that can be done in the next 4 years is terrifying. He's now talking about going into Iran. Will nothing stop this evil??? It's the Crusades all over again but this time it's worse because of the weapons we now have, and the fact that we have unstable people thinking they actually rule the world!!!

Rose

Schmusi34
02-21-2005, 07:35 AM
@rostonhall
the human rights act from 1998 includes ALL religious groups. Thats in the UK. Some cases have been brought to attention though under the Race Relation Act from 1976. Since 2003 you have also the Employment Equality Regulations. Going along with this is also the amended Race Relation from 2000. Thats all for the UK. Germany is just a bit different. The laws are almost the same but they have been put into place a bit later.
But we also should not forget that most of the sleepers sit in Europe, if we like it or not.

Rostonhall
02-21-2005, 11:47 AM
I think, Schmusi, we may have our wires crossed. This legislation isn't about Human Rights as such. It's being put into place to stop people from inciting racial hatred on the basis of religion. It's totally different to all the Race Relations and Human Rights legislature.

Here's the quote from the article above that explains why this is now needed.

'However, as Fiona McTaggart, the responsible Home Office minister, stressed in an interview for this column, while the law prevents people like Norwood from publicly offending or harassing Muslims, it does not yet stop them from inciting their followers to do so. In a curious anachronism, the British legislation on incitement to racial hatred protects Jews and Sikhs, but not Muslims. That inconsistency is a source of understandable grievance to British Muslims.'

Incitement is the key word.

Rose

titantoo
02-21-2005, 12:01 PM
For the record I agree completely with Rostonhall...and Schmusi34...I think we all agree too...its just some miscommunication re the details.

Schmusi34
02-21-2005, 02:12 PM
I am still saying it does protect muslims in any way they wish. Why should you not be allowed to say what you think? It's freedom of speach, and everyone has the choice to follow or to not follow. If you don't let people speak, they will speak anyway, you just don't hear them. And I rather hear what they are saying, even if it doesn't sound nice. Don't get me wrong, I do think people should try to be a team, but this is to one sided.

Rostonhall
02-21-2005, 02:44 PM
We are going to have to agree to disagree on this, that's for sure.

As a member of one of the most persecuted races in history, a race who, to this day, throughout Europe, is thought about with contempt and has very few rights, I will back my Government in every way in their fight to stop anyone inciting others to racial intolerance. There is a very big difference between freedom of speech and spouting racial hatred against any one group of people.

Rose

FriscoLady
02-21-2005, 05:37 PM
I am torn on this topic, I can understand both Roses's position and Schmusi34. I listen to Talk Radio quite abit, mostly because a friend of mine does the 6:00 am to 10:00 am show here in the morning. However, at times I do listen to the hosts that support der Fuherer Bush. I have heard some of the most awful speech toward muslims that you can imagine. Speech that in some aspects reminds me of the the propaganda of Hitler.

I have to admit that I listen to people like Rush Limbaugh, Neal Boortz and Sean Hannity, because I need to what propoganda they are preaching mostly for my safety as a lesbian, an individual who does not support the war in Iraq, I am out of luck on two counts with this President and the majority of his supporters as well as his propoganda machine.

I do believe, the men like Limbaugh, Boortz, and Sean Hannity should not be able to spread the hate speech towards muslims or those of us who do not support the war.

Do I believe in the first amendment to the U.S. Constitution, WHOLE HEARTEDLY!

However, calling some one a subhuman because of their religious, or political beliefs is not acceptable to me. In fact, with some of the hate speech I have heard against members of the muslim faith, I would not be surprised to see concentration camps in the United States for muslim's as there were for Americans of Japanese ancestry during World War II in the U.S. and for those who did not fit Hitler's idea of the Master Race in Germany.


Just because you are a muslim does not mean that you condone what was done on 9/11. We had better learn fast that if you condemn an entire religion or race for the acts of a few, you make bitter enemies of all who practice that religion or of that race.

Patti

titantoo
02-21-2005, 09:51 PM
I must have missed something...where are you torn? I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Free speach is worth preserving but it does not give one the right to incite hatred because of religion or race. Tell me you dislike democrats or people who believe the earth is not flat and that does not bother me. Tell me all Turks should be castrated or all Muslims should be deported and I say that is not free speach it is evil and destructive. If the government or our laws says the same thing it is much much worse.

Schmusi34
02-22-2005, 12:50 AM
It's all one sided though. Like you I am saying it is not ok to talk like that.. but.. it has to be even.. equal.. and it's not. Take the jews for instance and take Germany. Here anyone who just intends to criticise any of their actions is out. You not allowed to say so. Take the muslims here in Germany.. If you you criticise you are called a rassist. Yet the other way round it can be criticised untill your eyeballs fall out. That is not equal. We also have to watch our own rights. Equality, means both sides are the same to their needs. And that is whats worrying. Here in Germany a muslim has more rights than a German. What do you think you get when you go and live in a muslim country? You can't compare it with going there on holiday. If you go and live there you have to obey the rules of a muslim, never mind if you are a christian. You have to obey to the country rules, never mind beeing a foreigner. Here in Europe a muslim has more rights to obey his religion than in his own country.
Like I said, I don't think it's right to incite. But it has to be equal rights.

Rostonhall
02-22-2005, 07:49 AM
It's strange you should mention camps for muslims springing up, Patti. During the first Gulf War we, in Britain, had one such camp. It was on Salisbury Plain at an Army camp called Rollestone. I know because I lived less than a mile from it. To go anywhere I had to pass this place with it's towers with gun-carrying soldiers and it's razor-wire fencing. And how I hated the place. That was when we had a right-wing Government and now Blair just imprisons them in a maximum security joint where they stay without a trial. This is changing and they will all be released for the prison soon but only to be confined under house arrest.

Rosre